Raj Shekhar rajshekhar@hotpop.com writes:

What will we have next from this drama ? No one can speak their mind about any corporation ? Maybe a better form of protest would be to print out banners saying "M$ works like a drug dealer" and put it up on walls. Last time I checked, at least free speech was guaranteed in the Indian constitution.

But will that not attract defamation case?

Rgds, anna

Mahesh T. Pai wrote:

suggest that you spread the byline in the sig below. I wrote specifically after seeing the news. -- Mahesh T. Pai <<>> http://paivakil.port5.com Distributing free copies of non-free software is like ....

They are not free copies and therefore, let us not call them as free copies. It is better to say "Distributing complimentary copies of non-free ..." The OED defines "complimentary" as "given free of charge".

Using complimentary items as bait and lure are common tricks, practised by drug peddlers and other crooks to trap and hook innocent and foolhardy people. Warning the public in a plain and direct way is a duty for public minded people, and an _obligation_ for concerned government officials while discharging their public duties. Now, disgrace and downfall is unavoidable for the hands dangling bait.

Raj Shekhar said on Tue, Jun 22, 2004 at 12:03:32PM +0530,:

out banners saying <editededbyme> and put it up on walls.

We are not against company x, y, or z. We are not against corporates. We are not opposing capitalism. We are not against globalisation. We are not about monopoly.

We are about freedom for users of _software_. When company x, y, or z, capitalism, globalisation, or monopoly or (insert your pet peeve here) gets in way of free software(*), we need to respond/ react/act. Like Gandhi said, hate the act, not the doer.

The best example is Apple. They extensively do use free (urmmm .. non-copyleft) software. But they also created the un-fair-play ruckus. And FSF-I has stood up to the threat.

(*) All the above get in way of our freedoms in general, and since all of us are concerned about (non s/w) freedom (too), non-s/w topics do creep into our discussions ever so often.

BTW, it will be appreciated if people reply to the list alone, unless you deliberately want to respond privately.

Raj Mathur said on Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 10:36:33PM +0530,:

How have we stood up to Apple?

Thanks to AB, the site is hosted. IIRC in _US_.

That FSF-I is backing the current avatar of Apple's bete noire is public, (at least, that is what the pages said, when I went there few days back). Every forum interested in that project pointed to the pages sponsored by AB. IIRC, the contact ID for the whois for the domain was thesaidguy <at> _gnudotorgdotin_. And so far, the FSF-I is yet to hear from Apple, AFAIK. A reasonable time for response has passed.

So, I guess it is time to conclude that we have called the bluff.

Raj Mathur said on Thu, Jun 24, 2004 at 01:09:25AM +0530,:

It seems that we have completely failed in the first objective -- PlayFair has moved outside India,

Effective litigation will still have to be initiated in India.

PlayFair and FSF may have won, but India has lost.

And you have to be fair here. I gather that no ISP was willing to take the risk; for what reason I do not gather.

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"NG" == Nagarjuna G nagarjun@gnowledge.org writes:

NG> On Thu, 2004-06-24 at 01:09, Raj Mathur wrote: >> PlayFair and FSF may have won, but India has lost.

NG> It was hosted at a place where both the person and the isp NG> gave the backing. India seemed like lost when the host backed NG> off, for the reason that isp would not support. Both the isp NG> and the host were in a defendable position (lawyers opinion). NG> We needed a courageous person like ab to take to the cause of NG> defending software freedom. In a global fight against NG> software freedom we should not bring in nationalities. BTW the NG> person who is managing it is an Indian with support from an NG> non-indian isp. I dont see anything wrong as long as software NG> freedom is upheld.

This fight was beyond software freedom -- it was (is?) a cry for upholding of fundamental liberties -- the liberty to write software that may impact some corporation's profits, the right to disseminate such software, the right to cryptography, the freedom to use content in a manner that suits the individual as long as it doesn't break any laws.

In that context, the country is important. As far as I can see, US citizens has already yielded up most of these freedoms. Should we (Indians) also accept that? Or should we try to prevent similar restrictions being placed on us?

If the latter, then it is up to organisations such as the FSF and EFF to indemnify an ISP against litigation and have PlayFair hosted in India. If we lose the case, at least we tried, and if we win it's a significant step in the direction of personal freedom.

If an organisation is willing to do the indemnification I'd be glad to support them by (a) donating money and (b) helping locate a service provider who would host the server.

Regards,

- -- Raju - -- Raj Mathur raju@kandalaya.org http://kandalaya.org/ GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5 0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F It is the mind that moves

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"Dileep" == Dileep M Kumar dileep@gmx.net writes:

Dileep> On Thu, Jun 24, 2004 at 10:46:50AM +0530, Raj Mathur Dileep> wrote: >>>> If an organisation is willing to do the indemnification I'd >>>> be glad to support them by (a) donating money and (b) helping >>>> locate a service provider who would host the server.

Dileep> Raju, why don't you host that site in your server. IAC, Dileep> it is hosted in Delhi.

The server doesn't belong to me, it belongs to a friend. However I'd be glad to talk to him and get space in his rack at VSNL for a PlayFair server if he can be assured that he won't lose money through litigation due to hosting it.

Regards,

- -- Raju - -- Raj Mathur raju@kandalaya.org http://kandalaya.org/ GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5 0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F It is the mind that moves

,----[ "Nagarjuna G." nagarjun@gnowledge.org ] | I am writing the following note to say that FSF India cannot be, to my | understanding that kind of organization. Please correct me if my | understanding is wrong. | | Indemnification cannot be given by FSF India (even if it had | resources) it is not one of its stated objectives. FSF can give | support by using our lawyer friends to fight a case if necessary, but | certainly cannot pay compensation to the company or an individual for | the loss or damage. AB and others who decided to stand behind us did | not ask FSFI to indemnify. They did not put that condition for their | support. There are a number of others who promised donations, some of | them said: IF and only IF FSF will fight the case or agree to | indemnify. I fail to understand how this is proper to put conditions | for supporting FSF. The only condition is: We seek support to FSF if | the objectives of FSF are in tune with your life. This is a political | battle, we cannot fight this by financial means alone. Corporates | talk of indemnification because they have a rate (at least they think | they have) for everything. We are fighting for software freedom that | cannot be valued. | | FSF India needs money to promote software freedom in our region. | Please donate! We promise that this money will not be used for | indemnification of those who use, develop, promote, and stand by free | software. | | In any case please help us locate the service provider who agrees with | us politically, we can ask them to mirror hymn in the country. | | Nagarjuna `----

EFF is a non-profit group of lawyers, volunteers and visionaries, working to protect your DIGITAL RIGHTS.

FSF is a non-profit group of visionaries, volunteers and lawyers working to write, promote and protect FREE SOFTWARE.

Though goals are different, there is a lot in common when it comes to defending Software Freedom. This is a joint responsibility between FSF and EFF.

Hymn project as example: ------------------------ Within 12 hours of announcement, site crossed 100,000 hits eating up all the service provides bandwidth. Made head lines at many sites. Project is still up. No threat letters yet. Source and binary packages already reached everyone who ever wanted it. Press was fully on our side.

Because of FSF and EFF backing, project gained significant attraction and support. Success came unchallenged.

But the battle is not yet over: ------------------------------- - Real Author is not yet credited for his work, He still remains anonymous. He is treated like a criminal, because he contributed a great piece of software.

- There is no hosting service for Hymn and DeCSS like projects. Not even savannah.gnu.org.

Many advised me that I may loose my job, Visa status or get imprisoned with a heavy fine, if I take over the Hymn project's responsibility. Hymn project did affect my day time job. My company has good ties with Apple. I was given a choice - to stay on the front-line with big corporate title and take credit for the Thunder super computer project OR stay hidden defending the Software Freedom. I told them, I am not willing to trade my "Freedom to code".

Not many Free Software Hackers can afford to risk their career or even afford a 300$ registration and hosting service bill.

savannah.gnu.org.in with FSF and EFF backing will be ideal for supporting such projects. At this point we do not have sufficient resources. Maintaining official GNU projects at savannah.gnu.org itself requires more volunteers. Until then, we can keep such projects independent with external backing.

Software Freedom is a global issue: ----------------------------------- Any creative work is automatically protected by copyright law right from moment of its creation. Because DMCA is now a part of the US Copyright Law (mainly found under Title 17, Sections 1201 and 512), It may be possible to impose DMCA (as copyright infringement) on most countries participating in the globilization process. You should also note that, 96 countries have signed an international copyright treaty under the Berne-Convention. It is not yet clear, if DMCA will succeed in reaching far across the globe. But attempts are already visible.

The community is yet to fully understand the impact and damage, DMCA like laws can cause to the Scientific advancements and innovation. I felt like I was crippled, when hosting providers refused to offer service for the Hymn project even at a premium price.

-- I am in a remote town with limited access to Internet. All my responses will be slow for the next few weeks. Sorry!

Nagarjuna G. wrote:

FSF India needs money to promote software freedom in our region. Please donate!

If specific projects that requires assistance are mentioned, that has a better chance of getting donation.

It will also help if you can post the audited statements of previous years, so that (prospective) donors can see that their donations are well spend, it will also guarantee that any amount will be spend for defending freedom.

raj

On Fri, 2004-06-25 at 08:58, Rajkumar S wrote:

Nagarjuna G. wrote:

...

FSF India needs money to promote software freedom in our region. Please donate!

If specific projects that requires assistance are mentioned, that has a better chance of getting donation.

We need money to make brochures, leaflets, stickers, posters (publicity material), for travel of volunteers to various places for arranging programs and talking to different bodies, for attending meetings, for taking part with networking organizations, for running the office on a regular basis, for an accountant and auditor, for getting several articles translated and printed and distributed, for hosting (so that we remain independent of organizations like TIFR which are built for meeting different objectives) our websites and mailing lists, for meeting telephone expenses of the office and on event basis, for office secretary. These are all mandatory and unavoidable expenses. Apart from this we do need to sometimes compensate for the services of programmers who helped in executing the projects taken by fsf india. And now and then for public interest litigations etc.

we are also launching a membership scheme, publishing and distributing of goodies like tshirts, etc for regular revenue.

It will also help if you can post the audited statements of previous years, so that (prospective) donors can see that their donations are well spend, it will also guarantee that any amount will be spend for defending freedom.

Audited accounts could be published or made available at the request at the registered office, and fsf India will be accountable to the supporting community.

Nagarjuna

Hi all,

I'd also like to see some more information about the internals of FSF-I before I even think of donating -- names of directors, board members and office holders, what are their salaries and allowances, articles of association, bank statements, etc.

all the information mentioned here is a bit too much and not necessary IMHO, however i think there are lot more information which can be made available. FSF India will be having its general body on 18th July and will post most of the information after that.

FSF India is a section 25 company under the companies act. Members and Directors of FSF India cant be paid for their services directly or indirectly, with out the approval of central government. No one is paid till date. Only major travel expenses of members were reimbursed. If any amount is paid to members FSF India will loose its legal recognition.

FSF India doesnt have paid office bearer. Till few months back FSF India had one person working on a government of Kerala supported project. He supported fsf indian's office activities in part. Most of the day to day and legal work for FSF India is being done by me. No fee paid. Currently organisation has around Rs 40,000 in its account. And public donation till date comes to around Rs 30,000.

FSF India is being audited every year, and reports are being field at the commissioner of Income tax, trivandrum and registrar of companies, kochi. Audit has been done for 2002-2003, 2003-2004 (FSF India was not a formal entity when it was launched in 2001).

regards, arun.

PS: I will be slow in replying to mails for next couple of weeks.

Thanks a lot for the information. Please post the audited statements on the net. It will make life simpler for me to ask for donations. Is there any strong reason not to post them?

No, just that it needs to be approved formally. Should be available only after July 18th. Pages on other informations are also ready but waiting for the organisational procedures to complete.

As Raj mentioned, larger donations it is better to couple with some specific programs. Eg, development of more tools for education, developing teaching methodologies for schools education and hand books for school teachers.

I would like to add that we got donations on personal trust. Most of the fund raising were done for specific events. For example we are trying to get few organisations in kerala to fund the anniversary celebrations and workshops associated with it. Except for WSF 2004 there was no event organised by FSF India alone.

Arun.

On Tue, 2004-06-22 at 12:03, Raj Shekhar wrote:

Mahesh T. Pai wrote:

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Please sign this petition and show your support for free/GNU software. Do not forget that Code is Law ....

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/amadeuus/

Can we do anything more concrete than signing a petition ?

Yes you can ... send a mail to iti.gabinete@planalto.gov.br to voice your protest.

Quoting elaine da silva:

The world's largest proprietary software company, owner of a true worldwide monopoly on operating systems is trying to repress the use of Free Software within the Brazilian Federal Government. Microsoft entered with an interpelation on the 15th of June against one of the greatest fighters against the Brazilian technological enprisionment, Sergio Amadeu da Silveira. Microsoft's demands come from an interview given by Amadeu to the "Carta Capital" magazine, in this interview Amadeu compares the ways proprietary systems vendors act with those of drug dealers where "the first shot is always for free", probably in a reference to a quote by Sun Microsystems' President (more on that later) in which it's said that with proprietary software "we are given the first verwion for free, sometimes we get addicted to it and start to pay for further updates or new products acquisition, that's why I don't see any difference between drug traffic and software traffic".

We all need to voice our opinion and make it public that we would not bow down. I would request everybody on this list to send emails to iti.gabinete@planalto.gov.br .

Thanks, Kapil Karekar