http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?Title=Comrades%E2%80%99+new-fo...
Finally CPM has decided to take the plunge, putting all speculations to rest. It will be really bad if things go by the way as reported.
If opportunists start controlling the Free Software movement, it is very likely that it is the ideals of FS that is going to be modified more than any software under it. They can't be blamed for it, since it is quite habitual for them to reverse their announced policies as part of trying to catch up with the present, just as they did in the case of World Bank and ADB loans(to name just two).
Madhyamam, a local daily today has a report by P.K Prakash that Mr. Joseph Mathew, was removed from his post as IT Advisor to the Kerala CM, as he resisted the efforts of a group from taking over FSF India.
The attempts to organize a local FSF chapter in TN without the consent of the Board Members, the Kochi conference, and the latest reports ... may be the 'hijack' theory was not entirely baseless.
On Thu, 2009-01-01 at 13:04 +0530, sandeep sr wrote:
Finally CPM has decided to take the plunge, putting all speculations to rest. It will be really bad if things go by the way as reported.
I would suggest not to jump to conclusions quickly. I wouldn't totally believe the report if only because it is from the same person who wrote a lot of falsehood about SPACE, IT Mission and Arun.
If opportunists start controlling the Free Software movement, it is very likely that it is the ideals of FS that is going to be modified more than any software under it. They can't be blamed for it, since it is quite habitual for them to reverse their announced policies as part of trying to catch up with the present, just as they did in the case of World Bank and ADB loans(to name just two).
I don't think the CPIM would do a somersault so soon. Remember, the party and the government got a lot of good publicity worldwide through the policy to support Free Software. The party did help in our fight against software patents too. And the fact that they are holding FS meetings shows that they are still interested in FS. Maybe they find that supporting the FS movement is good for them.
Madhyamam, a local daily today has a report by P.K Prakash that Mr. Joseph Mathew, was removed from his post as IT Advisor to the Kerala CM, as he resisted the efforts of a group from taking over FSF India.
The official reason given is something very different and I hope that is the truth.
The attempts to organize a local FSF chapter in TN without the consent of the Board Members, the Kochi conference, and the latest reports ... may be the 'hijack' theory was not entirely baseless.
I don't think it is easy to hijack the FS movement. The move to start an FSF chapter in Chennai was probably the act of some misguided supporters of the party. Even the Kochi conference was a good effort, except that some of the people involved were probably not quite familiar with the FS ethos. So let us not start speculations. Instead, let us concentrate on our work -- building good software and promoting the ideal of freedom.
Wishing everyone Happy Hacking in the New Year
2009/1/1 V. Sasi Kumar sasi.fsf@gmail.com:
On Thu, 2009-01-01 at 13:04 +0530, sandeep sr wrote:
If opportunists start controlling the Free Software movement, it is very likely that it is the ideals of FS that is going to be modified more than any software under it. They can't be blamed for it, since it is quite habitual for them to reverse their announced policies as part of trying to catch up with the present, just as they did in the case of World Bank and ADB loans(to name just two).
I don't think the CPIM would do a somersault so soon. Remember, the party and the government got a lot of good publicity worldwide through the policy to support Free Software. The party did help in our fight against software patents too. And the fact that they are holding FS meetings shows that they are still interested in FS. Maybe they find that supporting the FS movement is good for them.
Madhyamam, a local daily today has a report by P.K Prakash that Mr. Joseph Mathew, was removed from his post as IT Advisor to the Kerala CM, as he resisted the efforts of a group from taking over FSF India.
The official reason given is something very different and I hope that is the truth.
Why the hell is FSF-I bothered about the internal functioning of a democratically elected State government?
From the reply of the Board of Directors, FSF-I is not even a democratic entity.
The attempts to organize a local FSF chapter in TN without the consent of the Board Members, the Kochi conference, and the latest reports ... may be the 'hijack' theory was not entirely baseless.
I don't think it is easy to hijack the FS movement. The move to start an FSF chapter in Chennai was probably the act of some misguided supporters of the party. Even the Kochi conference was a good effort, except that some of the people involved were probably not quite familiar with the FS ethos. So let us not start speculations. Instead, let us concentrate on our work -- building good software and promoting the ideal of freedom.
And we arrive at the hijack theory being repeated once again and by no less an individual than an FSF-I Board Director.
From the above statements, should the Indian Free Software Movement
understand that since the Left were the only ones to support us in *all* our campaigns - that they are condemned to be bashed up on the FSF-friends and friends mailing lists? What about the communal parties who are claiming use of freedom software? What is their stand w.r.t. free software? Why don't the anti-Left proponents on this mailing list take up a campaign to get them to support us?
Sasi Sir, Can you please explain to us how any entity can "hijack" a peoples' movement because if you do not give us a convincing answer then we are going to bring about a motion on this very list to pressure the FSF-I Board to impeach/sack you or whatever for your irresposible comments.
On Fri, 2009-01-02 at 19:14 +0530, Vikram Vincent wrote:
2009/1/1 V. Sasi Kumar sasi.fsf@gmail.com:
On Thu, 2009-01-01 at 13:04 +0530, sandeep sr wrote:
Madhyamam, a local daily today has a report by P.K Prakash that Mr. Joseph Mathew, was removed from his post as IT Advisor to the Kerala CM, as he resisted the efforts of a group from taking over FSF India.
The official reason given is something very different and I hope that is the truth.
Why the hell is FSF-I bothered about the internal functioning of a democratically elected State government?
Who said FSF-I is bothered? Why are you trying to put words into someone else's mouth?
The attempts to organize a local FSF chapter in TN without the consent of the Board Members, the Kochi conference, and the latest reports ... may be the 'hijack' theory was not entirely baseless.
I don't think it is easy to hijack the FS movement. The move to start an FSF chapter in Chennai was probably the act of some misguided supporters of the party. Even the Kochi conference was a good effort, except that some of the people involved were probably not quite familiar with the FS ethos. So let us not start speculations. Instead, let us concentrate on our work -- building good software and promoting the ideal of freedom.
And we arrive at the hijack theory being repeated once again and by no less an individual than an FSF-I Board Director.
Again, why are you trying to put words into my mouth? Please read carefully and see who has raised any hijack theory here.
From the above statements, should the Indian Free Software Movement
understand that since the Left were the only ones to support us in *all* our campaigns - that they are condemned to be bashed up on the FSF-friends and friends mailing lists?
Please show where left parties have been "bashed up". Please don't read what is not written.
What about the communal parties who are claiming use of freedom software? What is their stand w.r.t. free software?
That is a good question. Wish someone from those parties replied.
Why don't the anti-Left proponents on this mailing list take up a campaign to get them to support us?
Sure. It would be good if members of this list who have some influence with any party can take up the question of supporting Free Software with the party bosses.
Sasi Sir, Can you please explain to us how any entity can "hijack" a peoples' movement because if you do not give us a convincing answer then we are going to bring about a motion on this very list to pressure the FSF-I Board to impeach/sack you or whatever for your irresposible comments.
Sure. You are free to go ahead and implement your threat. But I hope you will first tell me why I should explain something that you have said.
2009/1/2 V. Sasi Kumar sasi.fsf@gmail.com:
On Fri, 2009-01-02 at 19:14 +0530, Vikram Vincent wrote:
2009/1/1 V. Sasi Kumar sasi.fsf@gmail.com:
On Thu, 2009-01-01 at 13:04 +0530, sandeep sr wrote:
The attempts to organize a local FSF chapter in TN without the consent of the Board Members, the Kochi conference, and the latest reports ... may be the 'hijack' theory was not entirely baseless.
I don't think it is easy to hijack the FS movement. The move to start an FSF chapter in Chennai was probably the act of some misguided supporters of the party.
<snip>
Read your statement again and see if I am putting statements in your mouth or you have just written what was in your mind. "I don't think it is easy to hijack the FS movement." What does this statement mean Sasi Sir?
On Sat, 2009-01-03 at 09:16 +0530, Vikram Vincent wrote:
2009/1/2 V. Sasi Kumar sasi.fsf@gmail.com:
On Fri, 2009-01-02 at 19:14 +0530, Vikram Vincent wrote:
2009/1/1 V. Sasi Kumar sasi.fsf@gmail.com:
On Thu, 2009-01-01 at 13:04 +0530, sandeep sr wrote:
The attempts to organize a local FSF chapter in TN without the consent of the Board Members, the Kochi conference, and the latest reports ... may be the 'hijack' theory was not entirely baseless.
I don't think it is easy to hijack the FS movement. The move to start an FSF chapter in Chennai was probably the act of some misguided supporters of the party.
<snip>
Read your statement again and see if I am putting statements in your mouth or you have just written what was in your mind. "I don't think it is easy to hijack the FS movement." What does this statement mean Sasi Sir?
I did not know that it meant that I was introducing a hijack theory. I thought I was responding to a suggestion that there really was a hijack theory. I suppose you did not read the rest of my statement.
2009/1/2 V. Sasi Kumar sasi.fsf@gmail.com:
From the above statements, should the Indian Free Software Movement
understand that since the Left were the only ones to support us in *all* our campaigns - that they are condemned to be bashed up on the FSF-friends and friends mailing lists?
Please show where left parties have been "bashed up". Please don't read what is not written.
Read the title of the subject sir and read the speculations on this list sir.
2009/1/2 V. Sasi Kumar sasi.fsf@gmail.com:
On Fri, 2009-01-02 at 19:14 +0530, Vikram Vincent wrote:
2009/1/1 V. Sasi Kumar sasi.fsf@gmail.com:
On Thu, 2009-01-01 at 13:04 +0530, sandeep sr wrote:
The attempts to organize a local FSF chapter in TN without the consent of the Board Members, the Kochi conference, and the latest reports ... may be the 'hijack' theory was not entirely baseless.
I don't think it is easy to hijack the FS movement. The move to start an FSF chapter in Chennai was probably the act of some misguided supporters of the party.
Also read your own statements sir. Telling lies and misguiding the list by your "observations" is not appropriate for a person of your stature. The FSUG, FSF-friends and other FS lists are being used for promoting an Indian version of McCarthyism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism If Sandeep or Sasi Sir or Praveen or anyone have any concrete complaints that an entity is indulging in wrong activities and those wrong activities are problematic for the FSM then feel free to bring those issues up. I am sure that all of us can work out appropriate solutions together. Please remember that the Karnataka FS activists support and cooperation with FSF-I is on the basis of the principles of Free Software that have been clearly explained by RMS and Eben Moglen
On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com wrote:
The FSUG, FSF-friends and other FS lists are being used for promoting an Indian version of McCarthyism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism If Sandeep or Sasi Sir or Praveen or anyone have any concrete complaints that an entity is indulging in wrong activities and those wrong activities are problematic for the FSM then feel free to bring those issues up.
Dear Vikram,
This is a Clear StawMan argument. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_argument
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man," one describes a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view, yet is easier to refute. Then, one attributes that position to the opponent.
I am sure that all of us can work out appropriate solutions together.
Thats Good. Straw Man Positions will not help this move
Please remember that the Karnataka FS activists support and cooperation with FSF-I is on the basis of the principles of Free Software that have been clearly explained by RMS and Eben Moglen
This is a good move. BTW, Just a question out of curiosity .Reading between the lines does it means (Some )"Karnataka FS Activists" (linked with /supported by CPIM (i dont think it is a bad thing )) support and Cooperation with FSF-I on the FSFI on the basis of (some new ? )principles of Free Software that have been clearly explained by RMS ad Eben Moglen .?
Anivar
2009/1/3 Anivar Aravind anivar.aravind@gmail.com:
On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com wrote:
The FSUG, FSF-friends and other FS lists are being used for promoting an Indian version of McCarthyism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism If Sandeep or Sasi Sir or Praveen or anyone have any concrete complaints that an entity is indulging in wrong activities and those wrong activities are problematic for the FSM then feel free to bring those issues up.
This is a Clear StawMan argument. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_argument
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man," one describes a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view, yet is easier to refute. Then, one attributes that position to the opponent.
I am point out the Indian version of McCarthyism that is taking place on these lists. There is nothing straw man or brick man or cement man about it.
I am sure that all of us can work out appropriate solutions together.
Thats Good. Straw Man Positions will not help this move
Expressing ones displeasure at the useless noise that is taking place and offering constructive suggestions related to that has nothing to do with any straw man.
Please remember that the Karnataka FS activists support and cooperation with FSF-I is on the basis of the principles of Free Software that have been clearly explained by RMS and Eben Moglen
This is a good move. BTW, Just a question out of curiosity .Reading between the lines does it means
Why are you reading between the lines? Just read the lines.
(Some )"Karnataka FS Activists"
(linked with /supported by CPIM (i dont think it is a bad thing )) support and Cooperation with FSF-I on the FSFI on the basis of (some new ? )principles of Free Software that have been clearly explained by RMS ad Eben Moglen .?
In a democracy, when people vote, they vote for one of the existing political parties and thus may support or not support them. What is your problem? Why are you trying to brand people in what can be clearly labelled as McCarthyism. It looks like now you are trying to openly brand the Karnataka FS activists with a CPIM label by your "clever" questioning.
I am point out the Indian version of McCarthyism that is taking place on these lists. There is nothing straw man or brick man or cement man about it.
This is Straw man position again. You are not responding to the the thread based on IE report & Madhyamam Report. Most of the people in this thread expressed that The report may be produced by some reporters/people with vested interest. And the response to report (about the CPIM move to new policy replacing existing Free Software Policy) must come from CPIM itself. Not From FS people. Till now you never addressed this report. All Other mails was Responses to this mail. If you really care about FS issues, please try to get response from your leaders to this report. If the content of this report is true it is an immediate threat to us.
Anivar
Instead of blaming CPI(M) here, you may go to the office of Kerala Taxes and paste a protest poster on their board.
This may enable some of the FSFI board members to hide their inefficiencies and malpractices by reaching to you for a protest gathering against alleged manhandling.
2009/1/3 കേരളീയന് भारतीयन keraleean@gmail.com:
Instead of blaming CPI(M) here, you may go to the office of Kerala Taxes and paste a protest poster on their board.
Last time I checked, Kerala has a CPIM government, and they have a policy which says.
"6.6 Technology: Standards are very important in the integration of e-governance services of various Government organisations. Open standards like Unicode and Open Document Format and Open Architectures will be followed in e-governance projects to avoid total dependence on select vendors."
http://keralaitmission.org/web/main/ITPolicy-2007.pdf
and now they mandate use of a proprietary format (Microsoft Excel). So what do you say about it?
Or is the "office of Kerala Taxes" run by the central government?
This may enable some of the FSFI board members to hide their inefficiencies and malpractices by reaching to you for a protest gathering against alleged manhandling.
This doesn't even deserve a reply.
- Praveen
The Kerala government policy is very clear and has to be well appreciated. The government has entrusted the duty of e-governance implementation to one of the FSF-I board member. However he is more interested to play with politics of exclusion. So he could not discharge his duty properly. If any of the government offices in Kerala failed to follow the policy direction for free software implementation, he has to reply for it.
2009/1/4 Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com
This may enable some of the FSFI board members to hide their
inefficiencies
and malpractices by reaching to you for a protest gathering against
alleged
manhandling.
This doesn't even deserve a reply.
Yes certain drama of hiding malpractices of FSF-I board members may not feel to refer further by their sychophants.
- Keraleean
On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 4:57 PM, കേരളീയന് भारतीयन keraleean@gmail.comwrote:
The Kerala government policy is very clear and has to be well appreciated. The government has entrusted the duty of e-governance implementation to one of the FSF-I board member. However he is more interested to play with politics of exclusion. So he could not discharge his duty properly. If any of the government offices in Kerala failed to follow the policy direction for free software implementation, he has to reply for it.
What does this imply? A secret plan to oust Arun? Hmm, may be the cards are in the making. My personal assumption is that there is something related to the ongoing war inside the party in this thing. IT dept is with CM, LSG is with Paloli, of course the other faction's CM nominee. Let my wild assumption be false!
Sebin
Dear friend,
The Kerala government policy is very clear and has to be well appreciated.
Thanks, I was fortunate enough to be invited to participate in the drafting of that policy. Most of the text was written by me.
The government has entrusted the duty of e-governance implementation to one of the FSF-I board member. However he is more interested to play with
I think you referring to me, but information you have is wrong. I was not given any power to implement any e-governance projects. In fact the government order gave me only one duty, that is to coordinate the setting up of an international center to promote free software and free knowledge initiative in Kerala. You may see details at http://www.itmission.kerala.gov.in/
There are only two public sector e-governance project in which I am involved. One of them is a presegious project, KSEB computerisation. My involvement in that project has nothing to do with my role in government.
politics of exclusion. So he could not discharge his duty properly. If any of the government offices in Kerala failed to follow the policy direction for free software implementation, he has to reply for it.
I am working in an agency under government of Kerala called Kerala State IT Mission. If you can spend 10 Rs and some time, you can get the details of responsibilities given to me and how i delivered my responsibilities(under RTI). And I've been working in KSITM only for last 4 month, too little time to make any change in government. (interestingly process for the appointment started in some time early 2007, how fast is our govt ;) )
I wanted to have the power to ensure that policy is implemented. Unfortunatelly I was not given that.
I would like to know where all I've failed to discharge my duties. That would help me to correct myself.
thanks arun.
There are many instances, if some one meet IT secretary of Kerala with some venture for free software based project, he used to direct to Arun, even before he was appointed in IT mission, as if Arun is the sole authority to decide on it. Finally that will be implemented by some agency in which Arun may have some undocumented interest. That is how SPACE grabbed project on Malayalam Computing even when there is lot of similar activities carried out by SMC. There are so many such examples of malpractices. ILUG-Cochin have many stories to tell. There was an attempt to have a deal of training with ILUG-Cochin people by SPACE, when Arun was in-charge of it. The SPACE asked them not to have any contact with the trainees after the stipulated time of training. By sensing false-play in it ILUG-Cochin people dropped the deal.
- Keraleean
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 9:25 AM, കേരളീയന് भारतीयन keraleean@gmail.com wrote:
That is how SPACE grabbed project on Malayalam Computing even when there is lot of similar activities carried out by SMC.
SMC is very happy if more civil society groups/governments/Industry coming up for promoting malayalam Computing. It is the way it need to function. The Only Concern SMC raised at that time is attributing SMC and Developers. That is well addressed after that.
Also you already raised that CPIM is more concerned about Free Software than FSM, If this is true I request you to Organise newly Trained DYFI cadre & CPIM people and Mobilise a Protest against M$ promoting initiatives like Kerala Taxes and Lead us in fighting against such proprietary practices
Anivar
2009/1/5 Anivar Aravind anivar.aravind@gmail.com
Also you already raised that CPIM is more concerned about Free Software than FSM, If this is true I request you to Organise newly Trained DYFI cadre & CPIM people
Definitely, I hope it will be done. The responsible persons will definitely do it, not me. Please be cooperate with them.
and Mobilise a Protest against M$ promoting initiatives like Kerala Taxes and Lead us in fighting against such proprietary practices
Let them decide what type of mobilisation and activities they have to do for promoting the use of free software. Please be cooperate with them in that effort.
- Keraleean
You made one set of allegation, then I respond to that, you kept mum and comes up with new set of allegations.
You act as 'Anonymous coward', I have to ignore you now on.
There are many instances, if some one meet IT secretary of Kerala with some venture for free software based project, he used to direct to Arun, even before he was appointed in IT mission, as if Arun is the sole authority to
May be you should complain to IT Secretary or CM who has appointed him. Not me.
I didnt know that I had so much power as you have attributed to me. Nice to now that.
2009/1/5 Arun M arun@gnu.org.in
You made one set of allegation, then I respond to that, you kept mum and comes up with new set of allegations.
Your reply to my complaints against you are only partially true, There are so many omissions in your reply, which was highlighted in my second set of complaints against you.
You act as 'Anonymous coward',
Sorry for the inconvenience due to my cowardness. I too wants to break the shell and come out. I am too afraid to make it.
I have to ignore you now on.
You may ignore it. However, I feel this list should know how much you were responsible to block further spread of free software in Kerala by your politics of exclusion and favorism. This list should know how instrumental you were for the business of Satish Babu and Amarnath Raja by virtue of your dominance in IT dept. of Kerala, which you have achieved in the name of Free Software Communities here.
May be you should complain to IT Secretary or CM who has appointed him. Not me.
Please do not misunderstand I am not complaining to you, rather my complaints are against you and posted here for the information of this list. Definitely complaints will be sent to CM.
I didnt know that I had so much power as you have attributed to me.
Nice to now that.
I too do not know how much power you have. However , the Kerala government might have rightly sensed the the power of free software communities and taken you as its representative. That power was misused by you.
- Keraleean
This list should know how instrumental you were for the business of Satish Babu and Amarnath Raja by virtue of your dominance in IT dept. of Kerala, which you have achieved in the name of Free Software Communities here.
- Keraleean
Arun and Keraleean,
Please elaborate on it. Do not just create doubts. Clarify it.
2009/1/5 Arun M arun@gnu.org.in:
You act as 'Anonymous coward', I have to ignore you now on.
I guess it is a new strategy. If you just want to badmouth someone - use your pseudo identity. If you want some real answers use your real identity :-)
- Praveen
Will you please reveal your identity and post your replies.
Dare to do so in a public forum.
--
Sri Ramadoss M
Dear Ramadoss,
I respect you for your contribution to the cause free software. I respect your advice to me which will make discussions in this forum more meaningful.
However I fear the virtual mafia, which is very much existed in this forum, who were mostly involved in character assassination of those who may express a different opinion in this forum. So I am note that dare as you expected.
However, considering your advice, I will reveal that I am a virtual personality, the contribution to my opinion and messages comes from more than one person.
There were so many other virtual personalities existing in this forum, please extend your advice to them as well.
- Keraleean
2009/1/5 ம. ஸ்ரீ ராமதாஸ்|Sri Ramadoss M amachu@ubuntu.com
Will you please reveal your identity and post your replies.
Dare to do so in a public forum.
2009/1/4 Anivar Aravind anivar.aravind@gmail.com:
mail. If you really care about FS issues, please try to get response from your leaders to this report.
What leaders of mine are you referring to?Eben and RMS?
Dear Anivar Mccarthy and other Free Software based * McCarthys,
2009/1/4 Anivar Aravind anivar.aravind@gmail.com:
mail. If you really care about FS issues, please try to get response from your leaders to this report. If the content of this report is true it is an immediate threat to us.
Your blatant practise of the Indian version of McCarthyism is glaringly obvious. I simply fail to see how any political party's participation / involvement in this or any Movement has ill-effects to that Movement and I have explained that in one of the previous mails. Maybe because there are none or it is so secret that you too do not know. Seeing that you are determined to continue your smear campaign against various FS activists and also specifically against the Karnataka activists I think that there can be no meaningful cooperation with you in Karnataka. You are free to continue on whatever path you want but please excuse us. Thank you.
Seeing that you are determined to continue your smear campaign against various FS activists and also specifically against the Karnataka activists I think that there can be no meaningful cooperation with you in Karnataka. You are free to continue on whatever path you want but please excuse us. Thank you.
Dear Vikram,
Who did say anything specifically against Karnataka activists? Are you making a case? I do believe that the CPI(M)s position to support FLOSS is nothing new and they have been very supportive to the cause even before. Stating that, I would aprreciate to see the party's stand being rigid on such matters. But instead, the LF govts in WB and Kerala seems walking back to square one.
The filing of IT returns for instance is mandated in proprietary software. Its true that most business houses use excel as a spreadsheet application. So i am not saying that, it should not be allowed. But together with it, the merchants should be allowed to file the return in open/free formats too. That is, you have to walk the talk. When somone who attended the Kochi meeting says, the party will support a judicious mix of free and proprietary software, we would like to see the presence of free software in governence projects. We the community (including both of us) would like to see the LSG computerisation in free environment. We would like to see, new procurements and project executions with free software. Is it what currently happens in WB and Kerala? If Yes, I am with you. I hope, we do have only one agenda - to propagate freedom infinity, so that we could walk together.
love, Sebin
Vikram,
a correction in my last mail. Its not the filing of IT returns. It was the e-filing of VAT.
regretfully, Sebin
On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 2:13 PM, Sebin Jacob sebinajacob@gmail.com wrote:
Seeing that you are determined to continue your smear campaign against various FS activists and also specifically against the Karnataka activists I think that there can be no meaningful cooperation with you in Karnataka. You are free to continue on whatever path you want but please excuse us. Thank you.
Dear Vikram,
Who did say anything specifically against Karnataka activists? Are you making a case? I do believe that the CPI(M)s position to support FLOSS is nothing new and they have been very supportive to the cause even before. Stating that, I would aprreciate to see the party's stand being rigid on such matters. But instead, the LF govts in WB and Kerala seems walking back to square one.
The filing of IT returns for instance is mandated in proprietary software. Its true that most business houses use excel as a spreadsheet application. So i am not saying that, it should not be allowed. But together with it, the merchants should be allowed to file the return in open/free formats too. That is, you have to walk the talk. When somone who attended the Kochi meeting says, the party will support a judicious mix of free and proprietary software, we would like to see the presence of free software in governence projects. We the community (including both of us) would like to see the LSG computerisation in free environment. We would like to see, new procurements and project executions with free software. Is it what currently happens in WB and Kerala? If Yes, I am with you. I hope, we do have only one agenda - to propagate freedom infinity, so that we could walk together.
love, Sebin
-- ...if I fought with you, if i fell wounded and allowed no one to learn of my suffering, if I never turned my back to the enemy: Give me your blessing! (Nikos Kazantzakis)
Sebin,
2009/1/4 Sebin Jacob sebinajacob@gmail.com:
Seeing that you are determined to continue your smear campaign against various FS activists and also specifically against the Karnataka activists I think that there can be no meaningful cooperation with you in Karnataka. You are free to continue on whatever path you want but please excuse us. Thank you.
Dear Vikram,
Who did say anything specifically against Karnataka activists? Are you
Read the thread again.
making a case? I do believe that the CPI(M)s position to support FLOSS is nothing new and they have been very supportive to the cause even before. Stating that, I would aprreciate to see the party's stand being rigid on such matters. But instead, the LF govts in WB and Kerala seems walking back to square one.
So what does that have to do with us? Since you come from Kerala I think you must be aware of the democratic possibilities that you can avail.
The filing of IT returns for instance is mandated in proprietary software. Its true that most business houses use excel as a spreadsheet application. So i am not saying that, it should not be allowed. But together with it, the merchants should be allowed to file the return in open/free formats too. That is, you have to walk the talk. When somone who attended the Kochi meeting says, the party will support a judicious mix of free and proprietary
Who said?
software, we would like to see the presence of free software in governence projects. We the community (including both of us) would like to see the LSG computerisation in free environment. We would like to see, new procurements and project executions with free software. Is it what currently happens in WB and Kerala? If Yes, I am with you. I hope, we do have only one agenda - to propagate freedom infinity, so that we could walk together.
Sure so start a campaign in real(as opposed to virtual) life, suggest ways in which things can be implemented along with what has to be implemented and how large number of people with legacy knowledge can be trained, etc... and then I think what points you put would really count.
On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.comwrote:
Dear Anivar Mccarthy and other Free Software based * McCarthys,
2009/1/4 Anivar Aravind anivar.aravind@gmail.com:
mail. If you really care about FS issues, please try to get response from your leaders to this report. If the content of this report is true it is an immediate threat to us.
Seeing that you are determined to continue your smear campaign against various FS activists and also specifically against the Karnataka activists
Mr Vikram i think it would be better to be more controlled while taking the name of karnataka for whatever you feel like. if it is your individual opinion mention that ,but do not take each and every person for that.
I think that there can be no meaningful cooperation with you in Karnataka.
again here if now you are telling as if you are representing some body / group mention that. In case you are assuming that you are the representing the whole group of acitvities , then my disagreement follows
2009/1/4 renuka prasad renukaprasadb@gmail.com:
Mr Vikram i think it would be better to be more controlled while taking the name of karnataka for whatever you feel like. if it is your individual opinion mention that ,but do not take each and every person for that.
<snip>
again here if now you are telling as if you are representing some body / group mention that. In case you are assuming that you are the representing the whole group of acitvities , then my disagreement follows
I am a part of a larger FS Karnataka team. AFAIK you are a part of FSUG of which I am again a part of but I do not speak of FSUG here.
On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.comwrote:
2009/1/4 renuka prasad renukaprasadb@gmail.com: I am a part of a larger FS Karnataka team. AFAIK you are a part of FSUG of which I am again a part of but I do not speak of FSUG here.
meaningless ,
dont try to divide the community,
if you could list which is that body or group or organization that youare involved and exist publicly/officially and working in the interest of free software movmenent intiated by RMS let me join.
if you were larger part of the larger part of FS karnataka why you did not tell that when you came to our college when you came along with the FSUG-team to give a talk about localization. is this is the way you say that you are associated with FSUG , i have no opinions to your way of functioning.
yes FSUG is the one which helped me understand several things where you were also and as you also told is part of it about free softwares . I met so many people including you because of FSUG only.
If there was any other team/group apart from FSUG then i am surprised why it was not told anywhere publicly.
by the way -- i am eager to know more about what you are mentioning about the larger FS karnataka Team, when it was formed what it is doing.
FSUG is there almost every where through out karnataka -- i dont know which group or team you are talking about...
-- Vikram Vincent +919448810822 http://swatantra.org/
2009/1/4 renuka prasad renukaprasadb@gmail.com:
2009/1/4 renuka prasad renukaprasadb@gmail.com: I am a part of a larger FS Karnataka team. AFAIK you are a part of FSUG of which I am again a part of but I do not speak of FSUG here.
meaningless ,
Who Cares?
dont try to divide the community,
What community? The mailing list?!
if you could list which is that body or group or organization that youare involved and exist publicly/officially and working in the interest of free software movmenent intiated by RMS let me join.
Sure. But we not yet named ourselves.
if you were larger part of the larger part of FS karnataka why you did not tell that when you came to our college when you came along with the FSUG-team to give a talk about localization. is this is the way you say that
We don't have a name yet.
you are associated with FSUG , i have no opinions to your way of functioning.
So what can I do?
yes FSUG is the one which helped me understand several things where you were also and as you also told is part of it about free softwares . I met so many people including you because of FSUG only.
Ok. So?
If there was any other team/group apart from FSUG then i am surprised why it was not told anywhere publicly.
We don't have a name yet.
by the way -- i am eager to know more about what you are mentioning about the larger FS karnataka Team, when it was formed what it is doing.
All in due time. For now, continue your good work.
FSUG is there almost every where through out karnataka -- i dont know which
FSUG Bangalore is a mailing list.
group or team you are talking about...
So what can I do?
On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.comwrote:
Who Cares?
Those who are interested, like you are interested in now divindingdescribing the community in your own way
dont try to divide the community,
What community? The mailing list?!
No opinions about your Your assumption--- or should i say who cares for your opinions
if you could list which is that body or group or organization that youare involved and exist publicly/officially and working in the interest of
free
software movmenent intiated by RMS let me join.
Sure. But we not yet named ourselves.
All the best, i will aslo join hands if you want if it is according to the ideals of free softwares initiated by RMS
All in due time. For now, continue your good work.
You dont have to tell me what to do.. when you yourself dont know what to do ( since you are asking questions like what to do? so what? )
FSUG is there almost every where through out karnataka -- i dont know
which
FSUG Bangalore is a mailing list.
So what , time will tell who will be what
So what can I do?
You say you dont care! and Also you dont believe/take into confidence any one those who are on the list who are part of community since you feel it is just a list . and you have so many plans as you said in due time it will come .. and
you want to descibe / divide the community ( your assumption is mailing list ) in your own way and mailing list is nothing for you
Why are you asking suggestion?
Still if you want to know from me, only thing i can say is what you said to me is " continue with your good work."
2009/1/4 Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com:
What community? The mailing list?!
Oh Come On Vikram, You know better than that. We have a wiki too :-) http://bangalore.gnu.org.in/index.php/Main_Page
- Praveen
2009/1/6 Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com:
What community? The mailing list?!
Oh Come On Vikram, You know better than that. We have a wiki too :-) http://bangalore.gnu.org.in/index.php/Main_Page
Wow! A wiki too!! :-)
Renuka suggesting that I was dividing the community is a wrong observation. Please read RMS reply where RMS clearly states that anyone is free to start as many organisations as one wants. Do you want to curtail that freedom? Also note that organisation and movement are not the same. We can have many organisations in the same movement.
Just to prove how things are bloated up -- the National meeting on Software Patents at Bangalore was attended by only the organisers and 3 new students from Christ School of Law. But the way Anivar projected the attendance in the media one would get the impression that hundreds had attended the program. Also most of the questionable news reports that are circulated are all planted by Anivar. So excluding such elements is not dividing the community... It is simply purging the community of such unethical elements.. that's all.
It is very unfortunate that my dear Praveen has become a serf to Anivar. Anivar, Where do you get your funding for such activites? CIA?
On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.comwrote:
2009/1/6 Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com:
What community? The mailing list?!
Oh Come On Vikram, You know better than that. We have a wiki too :-) http://bangalore.gnu.org.in/index.php/Main_Page
Wow! A wiki too!! :-)
Renuka suggesting that I was dividing the community is a wrong observation. Please read RMS reply where RMS clearly states that anyone is free to start as many organisations as one wants. Do you want to curtail that freedom? Also note that organisation and movement are not the same. We can have many organisations in the same movement.
Just to prove how things are bloated up -- the National meeting on Software Patents at Bangalore was attended by only the organisers and 3 new students from Christ School of Law. But the way Anivar projected the attendance in the media one would get the impression that hundreds had attended the program.
I think you also lost the ability to count. Please Check with Sunil for No. of Registrations
It is very unfortunate that my dear Praveen has become a serf to Anivar. Anivar, Where do you get your funding for such activites? CIA?
Dear Vikram,
Sad to say that You are becoming Don Quixote of this list, fighting against characters in your Imaginary world and self portraying as a War hero in your fairy tails
Anivar
2009/1/6 Anivar Aravind anivar.aravind@gmail.com:
I think you also lost the ability to count. Please Check with Sunil for No. of Registrations
Registrations are one thing... I was there to give my opinion first hand.
2009/1/6 Anivar Aravind anivar.aravind@gmail.com:
Sad to say that You are becoming Don Quixote of this list, fighting against characters in your Imaginary world and self portraying as a War hero in your fairy tails
Actually Anivar has described Anivar but anyway.... 'The truth shall set you free' and it is the fight for truth that is important. And since Anivar's lies have been successfully countered Anivar now need to adopt newer tactics.
2009/1/5 Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com:
It is very unfortunate that my dear Praveen has become a serf to Anivar.
I lost count of the number of people you branded as someone. McCarthy, CIA, Serf ...
BTW, you were telling people would come out and vouch for you. I did not see anyone coming up. Did not see support for some motion you were proposing either.
Hey people, you still have time left to vouch for Vikram - just a gentle reminder, in case you forgot.
Someone watching this list has been asking me, "is his brain connected to /dev/random in any way ?"
- Praveen
2009/1/5 Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com:
Someone watching this list has been asking me, "is his brain connected to /dev/random in any way ?"
I doubt it is /dev/null now. "/dev/null is a special file that discards all data written to it"
or both. With /dev/random source and /dev/null sink.
hey... praveen, anivar.... dont stop .....
where is sasikumar sir......
please continue the cpim bashing.... and expose more of yourself
2009/1/6 haynes davis haynesdavis@gmail.com:
please continue the cpim bashing.... and expose more of yourself
You can brand it whatever way you like continuing the great tradition of the party. But people will judge themselves. Especially in the time of new media where people have direct access to many things happening around them and can form their own opinions based on information they have.
All I have been doing is to bring to notice the violations of Kerala State IT Policy and help bring the government to complying with its own stated policy.
If you believe the Kerala government should be focusing on implementing the IT policy rather than reversing its direction to mix proprietary software, then we can work together.
This is a draft letter to list out IT policy violations and suggesting steps to bring those into compliance.
http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/An_Open_Letter_To_Kerala_CM
- Praveen
On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com wrote:
2009/1/6 haynes davis haynesdavis@gmail.com:
please continue the cpim bashing.... and expose more of yourself
You can brand it whatever way you like continuing the great tradition of the party. But people will judge themselves. Especially in the time of new media where people have direct access to many things happening around them and can form their own opinions based on information they have.
"continuing the great tradition of the party."
Was this sarcasm or did you really mean 'great'. Please realise what you are doing, its not what i am naming. You are proving it again.
All I have been doing is to bring to notice the violations of Kerala State IT Policy and help bring the government to complying with its own stated policy.
If all that you have been doing was as stated by you it would have been nice. But you do a little more as explained above.
If you believe the Kerala government should be focusing on implementing the IT policy rather than reversing its direction to mix proprietary software, then we can work together.
This is a draft letter to list out IT policy violations and suggesting steps to bring those into compliance.
We have to correct any deviations of Kerala govt from its IT policy. But working together will be really tough (but not impossible) considering your blind anti cpim position which is doing more harm to the free software community.
Haynes.
2009/1/6 haynes davis haynesdavis@gmail.com:
"continuing the great tradition of the party."
Was this sarcasm or did you really mean 'great'. Please realise what you are doing, its not what i am naming. You are proving it again.
haynes,
I was referring to past instances where party has branded people who spoke against it. CIA spy, Media Syndicate ... to list a few.
If all that you have been doing was as stated by you it would have been nice. But you do a little more as explained above.
When people who are passionate about what they are doing emotions can overflow. After all it is not business as usual. But will try to be more careful with words.
We have to correct any deviations of Kerala govt from its IT policy. But working together will be really tough (but not impossible) considering your blind anti cpim position which is doing more harm to the free software community.
Lets give it a try. Like a common minimum program, based on issues. The issue we are discissing here is the violation of state IT policy. Now we thought of writing a letter to the Kerala CM (since he is in charge of IT) bringing the IT policy violations to his notice. We can also give him examples of other governments which successfully implemented Free Software, like Munich, South Africa ... and the strategies they followed.
Now what else we can do? We are ready to listen to your ideas and work on things we both agree on. May be you can discuss this in party circles and bring it to the notice of party leaders.
In the community every one does not have to agree to every position, but when people have common positions they come together keeping the differences on other issues.
- Praveen
On Tuesday 06 Jan 2009, haynes davis wrote:
[snip] We have to correct any deviations of Kerala govt from its IT policy. But working together will be really tough (but not impossible) considering your blind anti cpim position which is doing more harm to the free software community.
Frankly I doubt if anyone here is anti-CPM. You can be for someone (or neutral to them) and still criticise their actions if you believe that those actions are wrong. Only the weak confuse criticism with hatred or condemnation.
It works the other way around too: you can dislike someone and still be able to praise some of their actions if those actions appear worthy of praise.
Unfortunately the real world isn't black and white, it's all varying shades of gray. There are no Gabbar Singhs or Jai and Viru's here :)
Regards,
-- Raju
On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:34 PM, haynes davis haynesdavis@gmail.com wrote:
We have to correct any deviations of Kerala govt from its IT policy. But working together will be really tough (but not impossible) considering your blind anti cpim position which is doing more harm to the free software community.
Haynes,
The it can be a non-cpim position too. But Branding everything other than only -cpim position to Anti-CPIM position will not help for a movement.
-- Any responsible politician should be encouraging a home grown Free Software industry because it creates the basis for future jobs. Learning Windows is like learning to eat every meal at McDonalds.
On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Anivar Aravind anivar.aravind@gmail.comwrote:
On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:34 PM, haynes davis haynesdavis@gmail.com wrote:
We have to correct any deviations of Kerala govt from its IT policy. But working together will be really tough (but not impossible) considering
your
blind anti cpim position which is doing more harm to the free software community.
Haynes,
The it can be a non-cpim position too. But Branding everything other than only -cpim position to Anti-CPIM position will not help for a movement.
right now non-cpim is a big vacuum regarding free software as far as political and government support is considered. Why our struggle does not seem to be productive in the other states and the central government?
Haynes.
On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 2:21 PM, haynes davis haynesdavis@gmail.com wrote:
The it can be a non-cpim position too. But Branding everything other than only -cpim position to Anti-CPIM position will not help for a movement.
right now non-cpim is a big vacuum regarding free software as far as political and government support is considered. Why our struggle does not seem to be productive in the other states and the central government?
Some of the 'productive' Free Software initiatives by the 'Red' State:
1.
** Microsoft to help West Bengal's IT initiative (2001) http://www.thehindujobs.com/thehindu/2001/08/30/stories/06300008.htm
2.
** Microsoft India launches `student PC purchase' programme( in partnership with the West Bengal government and Intel Technologies) (2005) http://www.hindu.com/2005/10/28/stories/2005102816531100.htm
3.
** Microsoft inks MoU with West Bengal govt (2004) http://infotech.indiatimes.com/articleshow/934755.cms http://www.hinduonnet.com/2004/11/25/stories/2004112504511801.htm
(Just mentioning a few..)
And interestingly, a report on the Congress Govt's (Kerala) move to introduce Free Software in Schools.
Stallman's MS-bashing in West Bengal gets ears in Congress-run Kerala http://www.financialexpress.com/news/stallmans-msbashing-in-west-bengal-gets...
And interestingly, a report on the Congress Govt's (Kerala) >move to introduce Free Software in Schools.
Stallman's MS-bashing in West Bengal gets ears in >Congress-run Kerala
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/stallmans-%3Emsbashing-in-west-bengal-g...
*HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA* ** a text from above link
*Kerala government has been coaxed *(I dont know the meaning of "coaxed") *to phase out MS Soft (Microsoft's exam software) from its school final exams. Microsoft debate had been stalling *(may be due to the so called dirty strikes by left organisations) *IT exams of about five lakh students in Kerala.*
*"Free Software will get more importance from next year," Kerala education minister ET Mohammed Basheer assured the Left-run teacher organisations and student outfits, succumbing to the week-long pressure. *
(Please tell me what is this LEFT RUN Organisation means)
*The protesters agreed to run the exams from the next week on MS Soft, only after the minister said that in-house software developed by Kerala government would be used in the coming years instead of Microsoft products.*
And also it refers the so called "Affinity" of CPI M leaders to MS when they were in opposition benches....
I am a fool....I agree....please educate me with such links (that too of some 3 to 4 yrs old), and kindly mislead me giving half truths and lies on CPI M. I feel ashamed of CPI M taking a complete turn around from MS to free software when they are on ruling benches, dispalying very well know oppurtunistic policies...HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHA
Thank You very much Mr. sandeep, so it was Congress initiative rather than CPI M on free software.....hahha hhohohohhahahha
Regards
Jimmy
2009/1/7 sandeep sr sandeep.sr78@gmail.com
On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 2:21 PM, haynes davis haynesdavis@gmail.com wrote:
The it can be a non-cpim position too. But Branding everything other than only -cpim position to Anti-CPIM position will not help for a movement.
right now non-cpim is a big vacuum regarding free software as far as political and government support is considered. Why our struggle does not seem to be productive in the other states and the central government?
Some of the 'productive' Free Software initiatives by the 'Red' State:
** Microsoft to help West Bengal's IT initiative (2001) http://www.thehindujobs.com/thehindu/2001/08/30/stories/06300008.htm
** Microsoft India launches `student PC purchase' programme( in partnership with the West Bengal government and Intel Technologies) (2005) http://www.hindu.com/2005/10/28/stories/2005102816531100.htm
** Microsoft inks MoU with West Bengal govt (2004) http://infotech.indiatimes.com/articleshow/934755.cms http://www.hinduonnet.com/2004/11/25/stories/2004112504511801.htm
(Just mentioning a few..)
And interestingly, a report on the Congress Govt's (Kerala) move to introduce Free Software in Schools.
Stallman's MS-bashing in West Bengal gets ears in Congress-run Kerala
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/stallmans-msbashing-in-west-bengal-gets...
-- Sandeep _______________________________________________ Fsf-friends mailing list Fsf-friends@mm.gnu.org.in http://mm.gnu.org.in/mailman/listinfo/fsf-friends
On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 3:26 PM, jimmy davis jimmy.ad@gmail.com wrote:
And interestingly, a report on the Congress Govt's (Kerala) >move to introduce Free Software in Schools.
Stallman's MS-bashing in West Bengal gets ears in >Congress-run Kerala http://www.financialexpress.com/news/stallmans-%3Emsbashing-in-west-bengal-g...
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
I just feel sorry for you man. If you didn't get the message i conveyed thru the links, you should either be naive enough, or you should be Vikram.
The links were intended to show the double standards of the party where they ruled, and where they were in opposition during the period circa 2004. But as somebody said, some people's brains are like the pupil of the eye...the more light you pour on it, the more it will shrink.
Signing off..
The description you have written before each link (unfortunatley you could not comprehend the politics of the link)....explicitly shows one and only one thing....that red state bengal is MS supporter and the then govt of kerala by UDF has supported the free software. And the explanation you have sent now is just a discovery to escape from your tomfoolery.
If you are so knightly, come out and openly support the so called strike done by Left leaning organisations for the sake of free software that "succumbed" the UDF to take decision onthe issue. 2009/1/7 sandeep sr sandeep.sr78@gmail.com
On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 3:26 PM, jimmy davis jimmy.ad@gmail.com wrote:
And interestingly, a report on the Congress Govt's (Kerala) >move to introduce Free Software in Schools.
Stallman's MS-bashing in West Bengal gets ears in >Congress-run Kerala http://www.financialexpress.com/news/stallmans-
msbashing-in-west-bengal-gets-ears-in-congressrun->kerala/125979/
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
I just feel sorry for you man. If you didn't get the message i conveyed thru the links, you should either be naive enough, or you should be Vikram.
The links were intended to show the double standards of the party where they ruled, and where they were in opposition during the period circa 2004. But as somebody said, some people's brains are like the pupil of the eye...the more light you pour on it, the more it will shrink.
Signing off..
-- Sandeep
On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 2:59 PM, sandeep sr sandeep.sr78@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 2:21 PM, haynes davis haynesdavis@gmail.com wrote:
The it can be a non-cpim position too. But Branding everything other than only -cpim position to Anti-CPIM position will not help for a movement.
right now non-cpim is a big vacuum regarding free software as far as political and government support is considered. Why our struggle does not seem to be productive in the other states and the central government?
Some of the 'productive' Free Software initiatives by the 'Red' State:
** Microsoft to help West Bengal's IT initiative (2001) http://www.thehindujobs.com/thehindu/2001/08/30/stories/06300008.htm
** Microsoft India launches `student PC purchase' programme( in partnership with the West Bengal government and Intel Technologies) (2005) http://www.hindu.com/2005/10/28/stories/2005102816531100.htm
** Microsoft inks MoU with West Bengal govt (2004) http://infotech.indiatimes.com/articleshow/934755.cms http://www.hinduonnet.com/2004/11/25/stories/2004112504511801.htm
(Just mentioning a few..)
And interestingly, a report on the Congress Govt's (Kerala) move to introduce Free Software in Schools.
Stallman's MS-bashing in West Bengal gets ears in Congress-run Kerala
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/stallmans-msbashing-in-west-bengal-gets...
** "**The state is ruled by communist politicians and its top elected official, Chief Minister V.S. Achuthanandan, has long been a supporter of free software, railing against the dominance of Microsoft's Windows when he was a state legislator.* * ....* ....
*Despite the denials that Microsoft was the target, opposition leader M.A. Shahnawaz, of the Congress party, said he believed the decision was based on the communists'opposition to the software giant's products.
He cited the communists'opposition to a Microsoft-supported computer training program that the Congress party enacted in 2002 when it ruled the state."
* *
More : http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2006Aug31/0,4670,IndiaWindowsvsLinux,00.html *
On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 2:21 PM, haynes davis haynesdavis@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Anivar Aravind anivar.aravind@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:34 PM, haynes davis haynesdavis@gmail.com wrote:
We have to correct any deviations of Kerala govt from its IT policy. But working together will be really tough (but not impossible) considering your blind anti cpim position which is doing more harm to the free software community.
Haynes,
The it can be a non-cpim position too. But Branding everything other than only -cpim position to Anti-CPIM position will not help for a movement.
right now non-cpim is a big vacuum regarding free software as far as political and government support is considered. Why our struggle does not seem to be productive in the other states and the central government?
Free Software movement is a Social Movement. If some states realised the arguments raised by a movement it is the victory of the Movement. You and me are part of that. You can Find various examples of Free Software & Open standards adoption in Central Govt Policies, 11th 5 year Plan, Knowledge Commission Report etc. On non-left ruled states, Tamil Nadu did some positive steps on Free Software adoption due to ELCOTs intervention. You can find similar examples from Other states.
I did a study about Free Software in Public Enterprises of Kerala for SPACE in 2005 October & November (Before Left Govt coming to power) . It clearly shows more than 95% of successful e-governance projects are on Free Software Platform . Most of them were not political decision and silent adoption by the developers (Report is available at http://space-kerala.org/downloads/foss.pdf )
And Left's adoption of Free Software Policy in Kerala is also a logical follow up of various actions & discussions initiated by Free Software Activists. Even the decision to adopt Free Software in IT@School was decided in an SCERT meeting (with the support of 85% of teachers) much before 2006 elections. But the govt came after election got the political advantage of this decision. and we are very happy about that because they are also helping FS movement by adopting new policies .
But when people are pushing Bush's binary logic of "Either you are with us or You are against us" (only-cpim positions and branding everything else as Anti-CPIM) we have to remind history.
Anivar
Haynes.
On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Anivar Aravind anivar.aravind@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 2:21 PM, haynes davis haynesdavis@gmail.com wrote:
right now non-cpim is a big vacuum regarding free software as far as political and government support is considered. Why our struggle does not seem to be productive in the other states and the central government?
And Left's adoption of Free Software Policy in Kerala is also a logical follow up of various actions & discussions initiated by Free Software Activists. Even the decision to adopt Free Software in IT@School was decided in an SCERT meeting (with the support of 85% of teachers) much before 2006 elections. But the govt came after election got the political advantage of this decision. and we are very happy about that because they are also helping FS movement by adopting new policies .
From http://blue-gnu.biz/content/fsf_india_039_s_impact_far_reaching
Answering to question "Can you tell me some of the key events that have brought FSF India to the present?"
Sasi Kumar _also_ said:
"This was supported by other organisations also, especially the Kerala School Teachers' Association and the then Opposition Leader (current Chief Minister) Mr. V.S. Achuthanandan. As a consequence of these pressures, the textbook was changed in the second year to include Free Software also. Eventually, the government decided to use exclusively Free Software in schools. Thus Kerala became the first state in the country (and possibly in the world) to use exclusively Free Software in schools."
Anivar, you are also talking binary. "Left" on one side and "Free Software activists" on other side. Are you saying that the _Kerala School Teachers Association_ (your (teachers)are entirely composed of free software activists and that V.S Achuthanandan was also a "free software activist"
Out of the four gains that Sasi kumar has mentioned in his answer, he gives credit to left parties directly in two.
The other being:
"The left parties, which are partners in the present coalition government, were sympatheric to our cause and expressed their views to the Minister. Eventually, the government decided to drop the provisions that were most harmful."
Sympathies of the left parties does not come out of charity or emotion. It comes out of ideological positions and understandings. If there is no understanding of these then at least do not try and play a disruptive force in the left - free software alliance by suggesting that left and free software activism of kerala are _totally_ mutually exclusive and that the only interconnection between them is through "follow up", "political advantage", "help" etc..
But when people are pushing Bush's binary logic of "Either you are with us or You are against us" (only-cpim positions and branding everything else as Anti-CPIM) we have to remind history.
It is better for the free software ecosystems that you stop playing its official historian. Report is a different thing and _history_ is a totally different thing.
http://mm.gnu.org.in/pipermail/fsf-friends/2008-November/005850.html
Anyone can be with the left and still be a free software activist and their contribution and the contributions of their likes, you have no right to appropriate as you wish and write histories as you wish.
Anivar
Haynes.
-- Any responsible politician should be encouraging a home grown Free Software industry because it creates the basis for future jobs. Learning Windows is like learning to eat every meal at McDonalds. _______________________________________________ Fsf-friends mailing list Fsf-friends@mm.gnu.org.in http://mm.gnu.org.in/mailman/listinfo/fsf-friends
On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 10:23 AM, justin joseph justinjoseph007@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Anivar Aravind anivar.aravind@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 2:21 PM, haynes davis haynesdavis@gmail.com wrote:
right now non-cpim is a big vacuum regarding free software as far as political and government support is considered. Why our struggle does not seem to be productive in the other states and the central government?
And Left's adoption of Free Software Policy in Kerala is also a logical follow up of various actions & discussions initiated by Free Software Activists. Even the decision to adopt Free Software in IT@School was decided in an SCERT meeting (with the support of 85% of teachers) much before 2006 elections. But the govt came after election got the political advantage of this decision. and we are very happy about that because they are also helping FS movement by adopting new policies .
From http://blue-gnu.biz/content/fsf_india_039_s_impact_far_reaching
Answering to question "Can you tell me some of the key events that have brought FSF India to the present?"
Sasi Kumar _also_ said:
"This was supported by other organisations also, especially the Kerala School Teachers' Association and the then Opposition Leader (current Chief Minister) Mr. V.S. Achuthanandan. As a consequence of these pressures, the textbook was changed in the second year to include Free Software also. Eventually, the government decided to use exclusively Free Software in schools. Thus Kerala became the first state in the country (and possibly in the world) to use exclusively Free Software in schools."
Who denys this? What I am Pointing is succes stories of Free Software came through the struggles of a Social Movement. It was not a gift from Governments. A lot of Civil Society movements helped the process. KSTA & VS achuthananthan surely have a prominent role in this.
Anivar, you are also talking binary. "Left" on one side and "Free Software activists" on other side.
Thins only shows you didn't get my point. I was Opposing the Only-CPIM position used in the list to sabotage the merits of a Social Movement . At First i am not equating All Left with CPI(M). Various left forces in Kerala (As a left leaning state) like KSSP, KSTA etc & CPIM (at least some leaders like VS, Yechuri etc) subscribed the values of Free Software Movement in a good way. This is the way a movement is growing. But when they are saying we need to Control/hijack/co-opt (use whatever words you feel suitable) Free Software Movement to CPIM we have to remind the history
Are you saying that the _Kerala School Teachers Association_ (your (teachers)are entirely composed of free software
Not Entirely . FSF India distributed Debian based Custom branded CD's to school teachers through KSTA (After IT@School Refused to conduct TYrainings on GNU/Linux). And Offered Training to teachers with the help of KSTA. In SCERT meeting Most of the teachers agreed with the New IT@School Distro. But the Only Opposition was against branding it with KSTA Logo. Supported Teachers includes KSTA +Other Teachers. Supporting Good educational tools is not in the basis of a Party. And FSFI made new CD with IT@School Branding
activists and that V.S Achuthanandan was also a "free software activist"
Off course. I hope he will continue to be
Out of the four gains that Sasi kumar has mentioned in his answer, he gives credit to left parties directly in two.
The other being:
"The left parties, which are partners in the present coalition government, were sympatheric to our cause and expressed their views to the Minister. Eventually, the government decided to drop the provisions that were most harmful."
Sympathies of the left parties does not come out of charity or emotion. It comes out of ideological positions and understandings.
Totally agree . It must be based on understanding the Concept of Free Software & Its Freedom
If there is no understanding of these then at least do not try and play a disruptive force in the left - free software alliance by suggesting that left and free software activism of kerala are _totally_ mutually exclusive and that the only interconnection between them is through "follow up", "political advantage", "help" etc..
I think you touched the key issue here I dont agree with the terms like "alliance" & "Mutally exclusive". Because, this is based on One point. understanding & Supporting the cause of Free Software & Freedom in Computing. FSM is not endorsing CPI(M)'s view on any other issue or Any act. FSM is only concerned with the Freedom in Computing. It can take support from any Political Parties (and any Organisation) for promoting the cause of Free Software. "alliance" is limiting a movement with a single political party & supporting each and every act by the party. FSM is growing by taking more support from more people. Not through alliances. It also have the freedom to criticize its supporters if it they are going against the goals of FSM. The current thread is also a reflection of this lack of understanding some people. "You have taken our support. So You dont have any right to speak against CPIM" was the spirit behind it. We have to oppose it.
But when people are pushing Bush's binary logic of "Either you are with us or You are against us" (only-cpim positions and branding everything else as Anti-CPIM) we have to remind history.
It is better for the free software ecosystems that you stop playing its official historian. Report is a different thing and _history_ is a totally different thing.
http://mm.gnu.org.in/pipermail/fsf-friends/2008-November/005850.html
Official Historian? Really Funny, It was my Presentation in Kochi Conference. I have all rights to make my presentation as an article. and I posted it in this list for comments . What is your Problem?
Anyone can be with the left and still be a free software activist and their contribution and the contributions of their likes,
Off Course. The most positive thing about Free Software Movement is it is not asking people to believe in an Ideology. Anyone, let it be a capitalist or communist, let it be Hobbyist or Hacker, The Code they Produce will be automatically become a Social Product by Choosing the Free Software License. That is the most positive thing about this movement
you have no right to appropriate as you wish and write histories as you wish.
If you are pointing the presentation in Kochi Conference, You didn't raised any valid critique on that yet. If you have any specific errors to mention and any points to add please let me know. Presentation is http://anivar.movingrepublic.org/wp-content/uploads/storydom.pdf
But above sentences is questioning my right. The intention of posting the slide to this list is taking comments on that. And this is not my Immediate important job. I still dont know why you are afraid of this presentation.
Anivar
On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Anivar Aravind anivar.aravind@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 10:23 AM, justin joseph justinjoseph007@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Anivar Aravind anivar.aravind@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 2:21 PM, haynes davis haynesdavis@gmail.com wrote:
right now non-cpim is a big vacuum regarding free software as far as political and government support is considered. Why our struggle does not seem to be productive in the other states and the central government?
And Left's adoption of Free Software Policy in Kerala is also a logical follow up of various actions & discussions initiated by Free Software Activists. Even the decision to adopt Free Software in IT@School was decided in an SCERT meeting (with the support of 85% of teachers) much before 2006 elections. But the govt came after election got the political advantage of this decision. and we are very happy about that because they are also helping FS movement by adopting new policies .
From http://blue-gnu.biz/content/fsf_india_039_s_impact_far_reaching
Answering to question "Can you tell me some of the key events that have brought FSF India to the present?"
Sasi Kumar _also_ said:
"This was supported by other organisations also, especially the Kerala School Teachers' Association and the then Opposition Leader (current Chief Minister) Mr. V.S. Achuthanandan. As a consequence of these pressures, the textbook was changed in the second year to include Free Software also. Eventually, the government decided to use exclusively Free Software in schools. Thus Kerala became the first state in the country (and possibly in the world) to use exclusively Free Software in schools."
Who denys this? What I am Pointing is succes stories of Free Software came through the struggles of a Social Movement. It was not a gift from Governments. A lot of Civil Society movements helped the process. KSTA & VS achuthananthan surely have a prominent role in this.
Your last mail did not have this informations(omissions). These additions to the last mail which you had claimed as reminding history is welcome. Especially the teachers(majority) being KSTA.
Not only Free software, but freedom also is not a gift from any goverments. And Free software has a long way to go in India.
Anivar, you are also talking binary. "Left" on one side and "Free Software activists" on other side.
Thins only shows you didn't get my point. I was Opposing the Only-CPIM position used in the list to sabotage the merits of a Social Movement . At First i am not equating All Left with CPI(M). Various left forces in Kerala (As a left leaning state) like KSSP, KSTA etc & CPIM (at least some leaders like VS, Yechuri etc) subscribed the values of Free Software Movement in a good way. This is the way a movement is
Certainly I did not get your point, which you have now mentioned. Primarily because the last mail did not have this point.
growing. But when they are saying we need to Control/hijack/co-opt (use whatever words you feel suitable) Free Software Movement to CPIM we have to remind the history
This point has been discussed and a lot of bandwidth spend allready. The history that just now changed to include some prominent roles.
Are you saying that the _Kerala School Teachers Association_ (your (teachers)are entirely composed of free software
Not Entirely . FSF India distributed Debian based Custom branded CD's to school teachers through KSTA (After IT@School Refused to conduct TYrainings on GNU/Linux). And Offered Training to teachers with the help of KSTA. In SCERT meeting Most of the teachers agreed with the New IT@School Distro. But the Only Opposition was against branding it with KSTA Logo. Supported Teachers includes KSTA +Other Teachers. Supporting Good educational tools is not in the basis of a Party. And FSFI made new CD with IT@School Branding
Supporting "Good educational tools" might not be on the basis of a party. But supporting Free as in Freedom educational tools could have the concerned party's ideas behind it. Not only for teachers but also students. For example, the primary reason why we did our Btech course project(GCC) on Free software back in 2002-2003 was because of experiments at political understanding of Free software. As activist of movements we were used to thinking in the political paradigm. And this is what am suggesting makes a lot of difference, the political reactions to free software. That difference will take one from conference halls and barcamp rooms out to the shools and colleges and govt: offices and to the people. This difference is what makes lead of a major event think in terms of "Low hanging fruit".
activists and that V.S Achuthanandan was also a "free software activist"
Off course. I hope he will continue to be
His support of free software based on his ideological understanding should not be confused with what you have claimed now. This is where things went wrong as some found out themselves.
Out of the four gains that Sasi kumar has mentioned in his answer, he gives credit to left parties directly in two.
The other being:
"The left parties, which are partners in the present coalition government, were sympatheric to our cause and expressed their views to the Minister. Eventually, the government decided to drop the provisions that were most harmful."
Sympathies of the left parties does not come out of charity or emotion. It comes out of ideological positions and understandings.
Totally agree . It must be based on understanding the Concept of Free Software & Its Freedom
If there is no understanding of these then at least do not try and play a disruptive force in the left - free software alliance by suggesting that left and free software activism of kerala are _totally_ mutually exclusive and that the only interconnection between them is through "follow up", "political advantage", "help" etc..
I think you touched the key issue here I dont agree with the terms like "alliance" & "Mutally exclusive". Because, this is based on One point. understanding & Supporting the cause of Free Software & Freedom in Computing. FSM is not endorsing CPI(M)'s view on any other issue or Any act. FSM is only concerned with the Freedom in Computing. It can take support from any Political Parties (and any Organisation) for promoting the cause of Free Software. "alliance" is limiting a movement with a single political party & supporting each and every act by the party. FSM is growing by taking more support from more people. Not through alliances. It also have the freedom to criticize its supporters if it they are going against the goals of FSM. The current thread is also a reflection of this lack of understanding some people. "You have taken our support. So You dont have any right to speak against CPIM" was the spirit behind it. We have to oppose it.
Where does this end, some people lack of understanding and yours total understanding. When a Hijack mail was send by you and it was forwarded to 20 mailinglists naturally Supporters of the left reacted to that, that is also freedom. Anyway like chennai person mentioned, they are fine now. Which is what must happen after discussions. Rather than continuing endlessly.
What exactly do you mean by saying FSM (to avoid confusions). And from that definition also explain how it has isolated itself from all other issues here. When you say only about Freedom in Computing you are assuming that like in the U.S everyone here has access to Computing. That is not at all the case, isn't it. So now what will "FSM" do, wait for someone else to campaign for rights, and access and then maybe when all that work is done, come and say.. Now we will take it from here, you can merely support us hence forth. This is what I said to be mutually exclusive. And this is a myth. And this is why efforts like AC3 are making a difference.
Like haynes was trying to explain in the parent thread, the cultural reactions to free software idea can be different. To say that the reaction should come only in terms of support is excluding the scope of other possiblities.
But when people are pushing Bush's binary logic of "Either you are with us or You are against us" (only-cpim positions and branding everything else as Anti-CPIM) we have to remind history.
It is better for the free software ecosystems that you stop playing its official historian. Report is a different thing and _history_ is a totally different thing.
http://mm.gnu.org.in/pipermail/fsf-friends/2008-November/005850.html
Official Historian? Really Funny,
you said, "we have to remind history" who is this we? Everyone has views and opinions Everyone has done what they felft like doing. I don't understand this uniform "we". and "we remind history" except as rhetoric for no reason.
It was my Presentation in Kochi Conference. I have all rights to make my presentation as an article. and I posted it in this list for comments . What is your Problem?
You asked for comments and I commented.
Anyone can be with the left and still be a free software activist and their contribution and the contributions of their likes,
Off Course. The most positive thing about Free Software Movement is it is not asking people to believe in an Ideology. Anyone, let it be a capitalist or communist, let it be Hobbyist or Hacker, The Code they Produce will be automatically become a Social Product by Choosing the Free Software License. That is the most positive thing about this movement
you have no right to appropriate as you wish and write histories as you wish.
If you are pointing the presentation in Kochi Conference, You didn't raised any valid critique on that yet. If you have any specific errors to mention and any points to add please let me know. Presentation is http://anivar.movingrepublic.org/wp-content/uploads/storydom.pdf
But above sentences is questioning my right. The intention of posting the slide to this list is taking comments on that. And this is not my Immediate important job. I still dont know why you are afraid of this presentation.
You have termed it as "History" and I have allready commented.
http://mm.gnu.org.in/pipermail/fsf-friends/2008-November/005850.html
Critique need not necessarily be the only way of engaging with ideas. I never questioned your rights, I merely pointed out that "History" might not be exactly what you have in Mind which you are refering to as "History". If you feel you have done justice to "History" and feel you are competent enough to write "History" well let history judge.
Anivar
-- Any responsible politician should be encouraging a home grown Free Software industry because it creates the basis for future jobs. Learning Windows is like learning to eat every meal at McDonalds.
We have to correct any deviations of Kerala govt from its IT policy.
But
working together will be really tough (but not impossible) considering your blind anti cpim position which is doing more harm to the free software community.
Haynes,
The it can be a non-cpim position too. But Branding everything other than only -cpim position to Anti-CPIM position will not help for a movement.
right now non-cpim is a big vacuum regarding free software as far as political and government support is considered. Why our struggle does not seem to be productive in the other states and the central government?
Free Software movement is a Social Movement. If some states realised the arguments raised by a movement it is the victory of the Movement.
You and me are part of that. You can Find various examples of Free Software & Open standards adoption in Central Govt Policies, 11th 5 year Plan, Knowledge Commission Report etc. On non-left ruled states, Tamil Nadu did some positive steps on Free Software adoption due to ELCOTs intervention. You can find similar examples from Other states.
I did a study about Free Software in Public Enterprises of Kerala for SPACE in 2005 October & November (Before Left Govt coming to power) . It clearly shows more than 95% of successful e-governance projects are on Free Software Platform . Most of them were not political decision and silent adoption by the developers (Report is available at http://space-kerala.org/downloads/foss.pdf )
And Left's adoption of Free Software Policy in Kerala is also a logical follow up of various actions & discussions initiated by Free Software Activists. Even the decision to adopt Free Software in IT@School was decided in an SCERT meeting (with the support of 85% of teachers) much before 2006 elections. But the govt came after election got the political advantage of this decision. and we are very happy about that because they are also helping FS movement by adopting new policies .
But when people are pushing Bush's binary logic of "Either you are with us or You are against us" (only-cpim positions and branding everything else as Anti-CPIM) we have to remind history.
But how did these 'some states' realise the arguments raised by the movement..... does not the other social movement's contribution count...why do free software has many takers in kerala? i think one simple reason is there are many who has seen computers and are able to use them. Another reason is people have heard of freedom and the need for it and have experienced it. Does any one think these happened after setting up internet cafes for providing free knowledge to the people of kerala? or is it only due to the awareness campaign of our's? who are these 85% of teachers? what is KSTA ....what is cpim.. why do they want to support free software.... isnt there anything else than some of the speculations which were expressed in this list? do you think the government of 2006 was result of a sudden growth from nowhere? why are you stating that it was only a case of political advantage? this is what i feel the anti-cpim factor in you. cpim is the only political party that has recognised the need and extended the official support to free software..still you are accusing cpim of taking political advantage. i have only voiced my concerns about antagonizing the people who are with us, and i have tried to point out the personal anti-cpim position of some people getting reflected in their mails which will do harm to the movement. any way i think binary is better than your unary of 'only due to free software activism'.
Haynes.
But how did these 'some states' realise the arguments raised by the movement.....
Peer Pressure.
does not the other social movement's contribution count...
Yes, for Sure
why do free software has many takers in kerala?
Awareness of its philosophy is high and idealism is a part of our culture. Even if we don't like to admit, there is this liberal sense of idealism playing a role here.
i think one simple reason is there are many who has seen computers and are
able to use them.
That is not an isolated case.
Another reason is people have heard of freedom and the need for it and have experienced it.
You said it.
Does any one think these happened after setting up internet cafes for providing free knowledge to the people of kerala?
Never
or is it only due to the awareness campaign of our's?
No
who are these 85% of teachers? what is KSTA ....what is cpim..
Kerala School Teachers Association is the trade union. CPI(M) is a political party. Majority of teachers in Kerala are members of KSTA. (for that matter, majority of all govt servants in Kerala are affiliated to any one wing of CITU or NGO Union.)
why do they want to support free software.... isnt there anything else than
some of the speculations which were expressed in this list?
Its a natural alliance. Any responsible political party and trade unions would support it.
do you think the government of 2006 was result of a sudden growth from
nowhere?
It had many reasons.
why are you stating that it was only a case of political advantage?
Who stated on what account?
this is what i feel the anti-cpim factor in you.
I couldn't follow
cpim is the only political party that has recognised the need and extended the official support to free software..still you are accusing cpim of taking political advantage.
All is not B&W. there are shades of gray. It is true that CPI(M) officially supported Free Software cause. But that doesn't blind one's eye to see the M$ program being implemented in WB. Let alone WB. Kerala has a distinct tradition. And here we see panchayat computerisation in proprietary platform, Commercial Taxes dept in proprietary platform, etc. Khadi board and KSEB are the boards that converted into FS. But that is not the case with various govt departments. I am not saying that, CPI(M) had deliberatly tried to implement proprietary solutions. It just happened so. Now is the time to change. IKM stated, they would. We want results and we look forward for that.
And someone would say about Akshaya. I went to an Akshaya centre in Nambavankavu near Vattiyoorkkavu, TVM recently. All systems were running windows and akshaya's computer literacy program was taught in M$ platform.
But there are several other instances like the participation of cpi(m) leaders @ KMUG inaugural function. Okay, they are political leaders and they will attend whatever function they are invited too. So that is not a big deal.
We have earlier discussed about FSF-Chennai. We have also discussed about Baisakhi linux before. We have discussed about NCFS Kochi. I am not going to elaborate on it once more.
i have only voiced my concerns about antagonizing the people who are with us, and i have tried to point out the personal anti-cpim position of some people getting reflected in their mails which will do harm to the movement. any way i think binary is better than your unary of 'only due to free software activism'.
You could carry on with binary position if you feel, its better. I myself am with CPI(M) for many things. But that does not make me blind enough to be a devotee.
Sebin
Haynes.
Fsf-friends mailing list Fsf-friends@mm.gnu.org.in http://mm.gnu.org.in/mailman/listinfo/fsf-friends
On Tue, 2009-01-06 at 14:12 +0530, haynes davis wrote:
where is sasikumar sir......
Unfortunately, still alive. Not dead and gone.
please continue the cpim bashing
Unfortunately for this country, anything that even appears to go against the official party line is considered CPIM bashing by some fanatic party followers. I don't understand why they become so paranoid, as though if someone says something that does not strictly follow the official party line, that is going to destroy that party--even when the party's top brass reassures everyone that even if some of the party big shots leave the party, nothing is going to happen to the party, which has been demonstrated after erstwhile leaders like Gowriamma and MVR were thrown out. I don't understand what these people are afraid of. They seem to be afraid of independent thinking. They want only subservience. Sad. I am sure this statement also will be considered CPIM bashing by such people.
.... and expose more of yourself
You are doing a great job of it, anyway.
So long, and thanks.
On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 4:03 PM, V. Sasi Kumar sasi.fsf@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, 2009-01-06 at 14:12 +0530, haynes davis wrote:
where is sasikumar sir......
Unfortunately, still alive. Not dead and gone.
please continue the cpim bashing
Unfortunately for this country, anything that even appears to go against the official party line is considered CPIM bashing by some fanatic party followers.
Its better that this applies only to ' some fanatic party followers.' Whats the official party line you are referring to and who is going against it.
I don't understand why they become so paranoid,
just think who is becoming paranoid of cpim hijack.
as though if
someone says something that does not strictly follow the official party line, that is going to destroy that party
its not an issue of strictly following official party line, its an issue of antagonizing the people who are supporting free software and there by doing destruction to free software movement itself.
--even when the party's top
brass reassures everyone that even if some of the party big shots leave the party, nothing is going to happen to the party, which has been demonstrated after erstwhile leaders like Gowriamma and MVR were thrown out. I don't understand what these people are afraid of. They seem to be afraid of independent thinking. They want only subservience. Sad. I am sure this statement also will be considered CPIM bashing by such people.
If you are referring to only ' some fanatic party followers' it cannot be seen as cpim bashing. Or are you referring to a 'general' party follower. If so you are creating an impression that usually party followers 'afraid of independent thinking', ' they want only subservience'..... usually your words create such vague impressions.. may be knowingly or unknowingly.....may be because of your prejudice. This is what i am referring to cpim bashing. So by your words i am including myself in ' some fanatic party followers.' But no one has insisted you to go by 'official party line'. Whats the significance of 'official party line' here. 'official party line' is something and free software movement is some thing else. If cpim supports and propagates free software whats the big issue. you should also take note that we are discussing about a political party which has officially decided to support free software through its IT policy. Do you think cpim involvement is bad to the free software movement, even if cpim may be making any advantage out of that? Or is it more important that cpim should not be promoted even at the expense of growth of free software movement?
Haynes.
Praveen, I already proved that Anivar's Chennai conspiracy theory was a big bunch of lies. You had a big hand in propagating those lies.
2009/1/6 Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com:
BTW, you were telling people would come out and vouch for you. I did not see anyone coming up. Did not see support for some motion you were proposing either.
Hey people, you still have time left to vouch for Vikram - just a gentle reminder, in case you forgot.
I don't need backup at present cause I am not in a shaky position.
On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.comwrote:
Praveen, I already proved that Anivar's Chennai conspiracy theory was a big bunch of lies. You had a big hand in propagating those lies.
Guys,
Leave Chennai. We are friends now with the Organisers of the event.
--
Sri Ramadoss M
On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com wrote:
2009/1/5 Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com:
It is very unfortunate that my dear Praveen has become a serf to Anivar.
I lost count of the number of people you branded as someone. McCarthy, CIA, Serf ...
BTW, you were telling people would come out and vouch for you. I did not see anyone coming up. Did not see support for some motion you were proposing either.
Hey people, you still have time left to vouch for Vikram - just a gentle reminder, in case you forgot.
Someone watching this list has been asking me, "is his brain connected to /dev/random in any way ?"
- Praveen
--
attending your call
it is better to have /dev/random than /dev/null as it is for the 'community' of 4 or 5 regular cpim bashers
On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.comwrote:
2009/1/6 Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com:
What community? The mailing list?!
Oh Come On Vikram, You know better than that. We have a wiki too :-) http://bangalore.gnu.org.in/index.php/Main_Page
Wow! A wiki too!! :-)
read the history of mysql -- you will get some good information
Renuka suggesting that I was dividing the community is a wrong observation.
I told your way of describing/dividing the community ( in your terms it is just a mailing list ) Suggesting ? you ! I dont like to give any suggestion to people who do not care for any one's and i again repeat. Dividing the kannadigas ( not just who can speak or write or understand -- all those who are in karnataka ) or any divisive move or any divisive thouths in any way/form are ignored.
Again i tell you my observation is that you do not have any respect to mailing list which yo uare also part of as we can see so many times you were out of control and many times simply shooting word out of mouth.
Also note that organisation and movement are not the same. We can have many organisations in the same movement.
Who told not to start an organization , -- i also wished you all the best --- forgot that ?
Repeating the stories again and again will not help in any way -
2009/1/6 renuka prasad renukaprasadb@gmail.com:
Dividing the kannadigas ( not just who can speak or write or understand -- all those who are in karnataka ) or any divisive move or any divisive thouths in any way/form are ignored.
You are just making baseless accusations.
Again i tell you my observation is that you do not have any respect to mailing list which yo uare also part of as we can see so many times you were out of control and many times simply shooting word out of mouth.
Countering lies is very much necessary else people will get convinced that lies is the truth.
On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.comwrote:
2009/1/6 renuka prasad renukaprasadb@gmail.com:
Dividing the kannadigas ( not just who can speak or write or understand
--
all those who are in karnataka ) or any divisive move or any divisive thouths in any way/form are ignored.
You are just making baseless accusations.
Mr vikram again you are thinking that i told that you are already dividing. How can any one think of you doing it as you are already a proud kannadiga.
Still i repeat dividing the kannadigas ( not just who can write or read but all those who stay in karnataka in any way/form is ignored.
If that happens reactions/responses/replies will come from kannadigas accordingly. and i believe you will be the one who will react against any kind of such divisive move. -- thanks vikram
i dont know how my reply to the other thread on fsf-friends list appeared here
can any one help me understanding this?
Vikram Vincent wrote:
2009/1/6 Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com:
Just to prove how things are bloated up -- the National meeting on Software Patents at Bangalore was attended by only the organisers and 3 new students from Christ School of Law. But the way Anivar projected the attendance in the media one would get the impression that hundreds had attended the program. Also most of the questionable news reports that are circulated are all planted by Anivar. So excluding such elements is not dividing the community... It is simply purging the community of such unethical elements.. that's all.
Vikram what are you saying man? Hey don't try to say that the meeting didn't had enough number of people. If you are still in doubt have a look at my flickr gallery: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sujith-h/2913211982/in/set-72157607731318072/ Again if you have something to say then please leave me.
Sujith H
Sujith, Read my point again.
2009/1/6 Sujith H sujith.h@gmail.com:
Just to prove how things are bloated up -- the National meeting on Software Patents at Bangalore was attended by only the organisers and 3 new students from Christ School of Law. <snip>
Vikram what are you saying man? Hey don't try to say that the meeting didn't had enough number of people. If you are still in doubt have a look at my flickr gallery: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sujith-h/2913211982/in/set-72157607731318072/
Your photos proves that the only participants were the organisers and a few others.
2009/1/4 Anivar Aravind anivar.aravind@gmail.com:
Policy) must come from CPIM itself. Not From FS people. Till now you never addressed this report.
Because I have absolutely no idea about the details of the report. I am not from Kerala(obvious), have no link to the politics there(should have been obvious) and don't care either(glaringly obvious).
On Sat, 2009-01-03 at 09:50 +0530, Vikram Vincent wrote:
Read the title of the subject sir and read the speculations on this list sir.
Do you mean the title is Left bashing? You did not want to notice that the content of many mails in this thread have expressed opinions against the "hijack bid" hypothesis and the accusation that the CPM was doing a volte face. I think I too wrote to say that I don't believe that report in Indian Express that was the starting point of this discussion. But you don't seem to want to see this. You seem to want only to attack the FS community and FSFI. And you seem to see only what you want to see. And remember, you are doing a disservice to the Left by antagonising people in the name of the Left.
The FSUG, FSF-friends and other FS lists are being used for promoting an Indian version of McCarthyism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
Thank you for the education.
If Sandeep or Sasi Sir or Praveen or anyone have any concrete complaints that an entity is indulging in wrong activities and those wrong activities are problematic for the FSM then feel free to bring those issues up. I am sure that all of us can work out appropriate solutions together.
I welcome that. I think most people here know that the problem was that some people decided to start a chapter of FSF in Chennai without even contacting FSF India or FSF. Interestingly, they did not even send a message to the community mailing lists. They did not respond when Arun wrote to them asking who was organising the conference. Whoever it was, were, I think, misguided. And from the details given about the conference, it appears that these people were CPM sympathisers or activists, though I may possibly be wrong about this part. No one, so far, has said that they are not. Not that it matters, but that is all that we seem to be able to guess about them. This kind of activity could lead to problems in the FSM. That is all.
Please remember that the Karnataka FS activists support and cooperation with FSF-I is on the basis of the principles of Free Software that have been clearly explained by RMS and Eben Moglen
That is good. FSFI is grateful to anyone who is willing to contribute to the software or contribute to propagating the ideal of Freedom that FSF and FSFI stand for.
2009/1/3 V. Sasi Kumar sasi.fsf@gmail.com:
Do you mean the title is Left bashing? You did not want to notice that the content of many mails in this thread have expressed opinions against the "hijack bid" hypothesis and the accusation that the CPM was doing a volte face.
This is a cowardly approach. Since the CPIM cannot clarify here you can keep posting mails. Go and contact the concerned people and ask them for clarifications first.
I think I too wrote to say that I don't believe that report
in Indian Express that was the starting point of this discussion. But you don't seem to want to see this. You seem to want only to attack the FS community and FSFI. And you seem to see only what you want to see. And remember, you are doing a disservice to the Left by antagonising people in the name of the Left.
I am as "Left" as the Free Software Movement is "Left". I uphold the principles of free software and people on this list who have been associated with me over the last few years will vouch for that. They will also vouch that I don't stand for any sort of crap including trying to label the FS activists in Karnataka as CPIM by their "clever" questioning.
If Sandeep or Sasi Sir or Praveen or anyone have any concrete complaints that an entity is indulging in wrong activities and those wrong activities are problematic for the FSM then feel free to bring those issues up. I am sure that all of us can work out appropriate solutions together.
I welcome that. I think most people here know that the problem was that some people decided to start a chapter of FSF in Chennai without even contacting FSF India or FSF. Interestingly, they did not even send a message to the community mailing lists. They did not respond when Arun wrote to them asking who was organising the conference. Whoever it was, were, I think, misguided. And from the details given about the conference, it appears that these people were CPM sympathisers or activists, though I may possibly be wrong about this part. No one, so far, has said that they are not. Not that it matters, but that is all that we seem to be able to guess about them. This kind of activity could lead to problems in the FSM. That is all.
If it was not confirmed that they are CPIM activists/sympathisers then what do you mean by "And from the details given about the conference, it appears that these people were CPM sympathisers or activists, though I may possibly be wrong about this part. "? Your disclaimer is a hoax.
2009/1/2 Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com:
I am as "Left" as the Free Software Movement is "Left". I uphold the principles of free software and people on this list who have been associated with me over the last few years will vouch for that. They will also vouch that I don't stand for any sort of crap including trying to label the FS activists in Karnataka as CPIM by their "clever" questioning.
lets see who comes up now :-)
2009/1/3 Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com:
lets see who comes up now :-)
So you are also part of those who read beteen the lines rather than reading the lines. Another Indian McCarthy. Of course, Anivar has the unique distinction of being the first. Lets see who comes up now :-)
2009/1/2 Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com:
2009/1/3 Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com:
lets see who comes up now :-)
So you are also part of those who read beteen the lines rather than reading the lines. Another Indian McCarthy. Of course, Anivar has the unique distinction of being the first. Lets see who comes up now :-)
You can call whatever you want Vikram. People here will judge on their own.
Sorry, Vikram. I don't find any meaning in continuing this discussion. You continue to see only what you want to see. But let me explain just one point.
On Sat, 2009-01-03 at 11:39 +0530, Vikram Vincent wrote:
If it was not confirmed that they are CPIM activists/sympathisers then what do you mean by "And from the details given about the conference, it appears that these people were CPM sympathisers or activists, though I may possibly be wrong about this part. "? Your disclaimer is a hoax.
The speakers included the IT minister from West Bengal and N. Ram. It is interesting that the West Bengal minister was invited though that state has still not decided to favour Free Software. Even the local minister was not invited, if I remember correctly. N. Ram is a know CPIM sympathiser and a person I respect for the way he runs the publication. (You may interpret this also as CPIM bashing, but I can't help it.) All this makes it appear to an impartial observer that the organisers were CPIM sympathisers or activists. Nothing wrong in organising such a conference. The wrong thing they did was to announce the formation of a chapter of FSFI without even telling FSFI. They also used the FSFI logo in their newsletter, as though to indicate that FSFI was involved. But they did not announce it in fsf-friends or other mailing lists of the community. Hope you don't justify that too.
Best
I too have made my points quite clear and hence I'm out of this thread.
Let me try to sketch out a possibility you may not have thought about...
2009/1/3 V. Sasi Kumar sasi.fsf@gmail.com:
The speakers included the IT minister from West Bengal and N. Ram. It is interesting that the West Bengal minister was invited though that state has still not decided to favour Free Software. Even the local minister was not invited, if I remember correctly. N. Ram is a know CPIM sympathiser and a person I respect for the way he runs the publication. (You may interpret this also as CPIM bashing, but I can't help it.) All this makes it appear to an impartial observer that the organisers were CPIM sympathisers or activists. Nothing wrong in organising such a conference. The wrong thing they did was to announce the formation of a chapter of FSFI without even telling FSFI. They also used the FSFI logo in their newsletter, as though to indicate that FSFI was involved. But they did not announce it in fsf-friends or other mailing lists of the community. Hope you don't justify that too.
<possibility> Some youth who were inspired by the ideals of free software and FSF/FSFI wanted to contribute their efforts to building the free software movement in TN. They were not aware about FSFI's policy on local chapters(I can safely say that not many knew that until recently) and did not know that they would have stones thrown at them for using the FSFI logo and also branded as "misguided activists of a political party". They invited people who they felt would support the cause of free software. Due to being extremely busy in organising such a program they were not able/forgot to send a mail to the required lists. Then certain people on this list, instead of trying to guide these youth, started throwing stones at them. Youth do not want to be beaten with stones and hence do not reply to FSFI's mail. </possibility> Sasi Sir, In your wisdom please see if such a situation is even remotely possible.
On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 9:38 PM, Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com wrote:
Let me try to sketch out a possibility you may not have thought about...
2009/1/3 V. Sasi Kumar sasi.fsf@gmail.com:
The speakers included the IT minister from West Bengal and N. Ram. It is interesting that the West Bengal minister was invited though that state has still not decided to favour Free Software. Even the local minister was not invited, if I remember correctly. N. Ram is a know CPIM sympathiser and a person I respect for the way he runs the publication. (You may interpret this also as CPIM bashing, but I can't help it.) All this makes it appear to an impartial observer that the organisers were CPIM sympathisers or activists. Nothing wrong in organising such a conference. The wrong thing they did was to announce the formation of a chapter of FSFI without even telling FSFI. They also used the FSFI logo in their newsletter, as though to indicate that FSFI was involved. But they did not announce it in fsf-friends or other mailing lists of the community. Hope you don't justify that too.
<possibility> Some youth who were inspired by the ideals of free software and FSF/FSFI wanted to contribute their efforts to building the free software movement in TN. They were not aware about FSFI's policy on local chapters(I can safely say that not many knew that until recently) and did not know that they would have stones thrown at them for using the FSFI logo and also branded as "misguided activists of a political party".
Happy to Know that Kiran Chandra, One FSF India Board of Director was also part of the ''people who are not aware of FSFI's Policy"
On Sun, 2009-01-04 at 21:38 +0530, Vikram Vincent wrote:
Let me try to sketch out a possibility you may not have thought about...
<possibility> Some youth who were inspired by the ideals of free software and FSF/FSFI wanted to contribute their efforts to building the free software movement in TN. They were not aware about FSFI's policy on local chapters(I can safely say that not many knew that until recently) and did not know that they would have stones thrown at them for using the FSFI logo and also branded as "misguided activists of a political party". They invited people who they felt would support the cause of free software. Due to being extremely busy in organising such a program they were not able/forgot to send a mail to the required lists. Then certain people on this list, instead of trying to guide these youth, started throwing stones at them. Youth do not want to be beaten with stones and hence do not reply to FSFI's mail. </possibility> Sasi Sir, In your wisdom please see if such a situation is even remotely possible.
Thank you for presenting another possible scenario. But this still leaves me with several doubts. They knew of the existence of FSFI, enough to use the logo. The minimum they could have done was to write to any of the FSFI mailing lists to inform FSFI about their intentions. They did not do so. FSFI wrote to the email id given in their website to ask about the people who were organising the conference. There was no response. If someone wants to condone these things, they will have to admit that these people were very naive and ignorant. But the contents of the newsletter they had put up on their website showed that they were not all that ignorant about Free Software or FSF.
Dear Vikram,
I don't think I am a very wise person. There is too much to understand about life for most people to become really wise in their lifetime. In my limited wisdom and intelligence, I think the scenario you have described is possible, but very highly improbable.
2009/1/5 V. Sasi Kumar sasi.fsf@gmail.com:
On Sun, 2009-01-04 at 21:38 +0530, Vikram Vincent wrote:
Let me try to sketch out a possibility you may not have thought about...
<possibility> Some youth who were inspired by the ideals of free software and FSF/FSFI wanted to contribute their efforts to building the free software movement in TN. They were not aware about FSFI's policy on local chapters(I can safely say that not many knew that until recently) and did not know that they would have stones thrown at them for using the FSFI logo and also branded as "misguided activists of a political party". They invited people who they felt would support the cause of free software. Due to being extremely busy in organising such a program they were not able/forgot to send a mail to the required lists. Then certain people on this list, instead of trying to guide these youth, started throwing stones at them. Youth do not want to be beaten with stones and hence do not reply to FSFI's mail. </possibility> Sasi Sir, In your wisdom please see if such a situation is even remotely possible.
Thank you for presenting another possible scenario. But this still leaves me with several doubts. They knew of the existence of FSFI, enough to use the logo. The minimum they could have done was to write to any of the FSFI mailing lists to inform FSFI about their intentions. They did not do so. FSFI wrote to the email id given in their website to ask about the people who were organising the conference. There was no response. If someone wants to condone these things, they will have to admit that these people were very naive and ignorant. But the contents of the newsletter they had put up on their website showed that they were not all that ignorant about Free Software or FSF.
Dear Vikram,
I don't think I am a very wise person. There is too much to understand about life for most people to become really wise in their lifetime. In my limited wisdom and intelligence, I think the scenario you have described is possible, but very highly improbable.
The fact that you have admitted that this is a possible situation is sufficient. In a court of law, if there is room for doubt then an entity cannot be condemned and thus unless the situation I have sketched out is disproved beyond reasonable doubt the "Chennai conspiracy theory" stands demolished.
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com wrote:
The fact that you have admitted that this is a possible situation is sufficient. In a court of law, if there is room for doubt then an entity cannot be condemned and thus unless the situation I have sketched out is disproved beyond reasonable doubt the "Chennai conspiracy theory" stands demolished.
This level of absurdity doesn't deserve a reply, but still, why do you keep avoiding questions about Kiran Chandra's involvement in all these anti FSF I activities?
2009/1/5 sandeep sr sandeep.sr78@gmail.com:
This level of absurdity doesn't deserve a reply, but still, why do you
Absurdity?! I think it is a really strong argument which cannot be challenged unless one has irrefutable proof to the contrary. If you have proof then do place it here else 'peace be with you'.
keep avoiding questions about Kiran Chandra's involvement in all these anti FSF I activities?
Please do ask him when you meet him. Have a peaceful year ahead.
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com wrote:
keep avoiding questions about Kiran Chandra's involvement in all these anti FSF I activities?
Please do ask him when you meet him.
Oh..how silly of me...Watching your mails for the past couple of months gave me the wrong notion that you were acting on his directions. Thanks for the clarification.
Have a peaceful year ahead.
Thank you
On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:26 +0530, Vikram Vincent wrote:
The fact that you have admitted that this is a possible situation is sufficient. In a court of law, if there is room for doubt then an entity cannot be condemned and thus unless the situation I have sketched out is disproved beyond reasonable doubt the "Chennai conspiracy theory" stands demolished.
Thank you, Your Lordship.
2009/1/5 V. Sasi Kumar sasi.fsf@gmail.com:
The fact that you have admitted that this is a possible situation is sufficient. In a court of law, if there is room for doubt then an entity cannot be condemned and thus unless the situation I have sketched out is disproved beyond reasonable doubt the "Chennai conspiracy theory" stands demolished.
Thank you, Your Lordship.
You are welcome.
Finally CPM has decided to take the plunge, putting all speculations to rest. It will be really bad if things go by the way as reported.
I feel This reporter is backed by some evil advocates trying to push Proprietary Software in Kerala.
As I heard ( some of my friends are participated on that meeting) no such moves happened in that meeting. Let me quote from another mail I posted on Fourth Estate Critique E-Group (A list of media people in Trivandrum, archive is not public) on 21st evening ( The day in which this meeting is happened) in 2 another Discussion threads Related to Proprietary software promotion by Information Kerala mission(IKM) in Local Self Governance and an embeded report in indian express (by same reporter)targeting SPACE & 2 Free Softwares Promotion programmes of it.
<quote> All IKM people were present at Cochin today on CPIM's meeting to popularize Free Software :-) Pinayrayi Vijayan , P.Rajeev, Anwar sadath from IT@school etc were leaded the programme. They formed a state level committee for this (joseph thomas from ATPS/OSS ICS is the convener, District coordinators were selected) The meeting also decided to create an online squad of party cadre to counter the critiques against party in cyberspace.
I can now really understand the meaning of Indian express report.
Dear Press friends & list members Free Software Community in Kerala is not on any of the groups in CPIM>. We are not interested to limit ourself in fractions of a political party. We believe Free Software way is more inclusive & transforming the world much better than these groups. we are busy with Free Software Development, Advocacy, User Groups & our own jobs.
3 more Free Software community events are coming on next 2 months . Hackerdom in Thrissur(jan 9-11, http://hackerdom.in ), FOSSmeet@MEC (Model Engineering College, Eranakulam http://foss.mec.ac.in ) and FOSSmeet@ NITC in Calicut( http://fossmeet.in ). I request your cooperation for spreading the message of Free Software to Common people. </quote>
The P.rajeevs quote in IE Report also justifies above information I got from my friends.
If opportunists start controlling the Free Software movement, it is very likely that it is the ideals of FS that is going to be modified more than any software under it. They can't be blamed for it, since it is quite habitual for them to reverse their announced policies as part of trying to catch up with the present, just as they did in the case of World Bank and ADB loans(to name just two).
I think we dont need to afraid about any Kind of political party control on Movement or FSFI(after the board statement). FS movement cant be never controlled by people with a politics of exclusion. And only way to get stake in movement is only by Contributing to it. I still this space is still Open for any Political parties. Some political parties may succeed for a time being to act as Vanguards of FS movement in front of media. But it will change when movement is growing. As I quoted above, I still feel Kerala CPIM is still in the track of promoting Free Software. But merging the same initiative with "party's image control' on cyberspace is certainly bad. As a follow up of this meeting They Organised a Training to Their Youth wing (DYFI) on 28th & 29th at Ottappalam, Palakkad district. This really shows they are still on right path. Leave the specific interests of the reporter & people behind it.
Madhyamam, a local daily today has a report by P.K Prakash that Mr. Joseph Mathew, was removed from his post as IT Advisor to the Kerala CM, as he resisted the efforts of a group from taking over FSF India. The attempts to organize a local FSF chapter in TN without the consent of the Board Members, the Kochi conference, and the latest reports ... may be the 'hijack' theory was not entirely baseless.
Most of the media reports and Joseph's statement in Todays news papers reflects it is related to IT/ITES SEZs. This report will http://dailypioneer.com/147238/Anil-Kumar-Joseph-tender-resignations.html
Anyway I dont think the issues pointed by you is not completely out of context. These kind of news is already spreading. Some friends inside the Party told me , in the meeting there was criticism against joseph for our boycott Novell campaign in Kochi conference in which he don't have any role. Anyway I dont think party is that much foolish to properly understand these kind of Conspiracy theories propagated by Joseph Thomas & team. I am not believing it
Anivar Aravind
On Thursday 01 Jan 2009, sandeep sr wrote:
[snip] If opportunists start controlling the Free Software movement [snip]
Maybe I'm being totally stupid here, but would someone explain what advantage control of FSF India or the free software movement here would bring to any political party?
We don't control any voters (heck, we find it hard enough to agree on anything within the community itself!)
We don't own large means of producing capital.
We don't listen to diktats or whips from anyone.
We are notoriously difficult to herd.
We all have our independent views of local, national and international politics and events.
Our objectives are rarely the same as the objectives of any party. Even when the objectives converge, the reasons for and often the means of achieving those objectives are widely divergent.
If I were a political party I'd keep my politics as far as possible from this community, lest my existing followers also be tainted by the spirit of independence and iconoclasm that the community evinces :)
Regards,
-- Raju
2009/1/1 Raj Mathur raju@linux-delhi.org:
Maybe I'm being totally stupid here, but would someone explain what
I will try talk about some possible scenarios. It might be that, they have never thought about it, but providing here just for the sake of argument.
advantage control of FSF India or the free software movement here would bring to any political party?
The name.
We don't control any voters (heck, we find it hard enough to agree on anything within the community itself!)
But what about the thousands of IT professionals who are not yet in the community, but could be brought in using an established name such a FSF India or Free Software community.
We don't own large means of producing capital.
We don't listen to diktats or whips from anyone.
But new community members may go their way than our way.
We are notoriously difficult to herd.
Again we are missing tha lrge number of unorganised IT professional pool of workers who could be brought in.
We all have our independent views of local, national and international politics and events.
Again same for new member, if given a chance they could talk about their ideas. Like discussions on India-US nuclear deal when you meet for coffee after a Free Software meet.
Our objectives are rarely the same as the objectives of any party. Even when the objectives converge, the reasons for and often the means of achieving those objectives are widely divergent.
We are giving them a chance to talk to a large pool of voters which they can't approach directly.
If I were a political party I'd keep my politics as far as possible from this community, lest my existing followers also be tainted by the spirit of independence and iconoclasm that the community evinces :)
The whole point as I visualise is the chance to organise the IT industry.
Note: All of this is pure speculations, just to fill the curiosity of Raj (what could be possible). I don't have any proof of any of this happening or discussed. And I do appreciate the efforts party making to promote Free Software.
- Praveen
Why do you miss the most possible scenario.
Why Free Software Movements (FSM) shows interest in software freedom? The same may be the reason for progressive political forces too.
Is there any rule that only FSMs will have good intention with their activities on software freedom ? As software freedom is part of larger freedom that will lead to social empowerment and further to achieve social and economic equality, collective decision-making, and public control of productive capital and natural resources. Hence it is natural that progressive political parties are more concerned with software freedom than anyone of the FSM.
We may better realize it and co-operate with them for the same rather than going for baseless allegation against them.
- Keraleean
On 1/2/09, കേരളീയന് भारतीयन keraleean@gmail.com wrote:
. Hence it is natural that
progressive political parties are more concerned with software freedom than anyone of the FSM.
May be this 'concern' was the driving force, when CPM decided to go ahead with the Panchayath Computerisation(done by IKM, headed by a party bigwig P.V Unnikrishnan) activities entirely in M$ platform some time back, ignoring the repeated pleas for using FS by many leftist sympathisers. The 'concern by the progressive party' thus paved ay for the biggest M$ project in India. If it were not for the vigilant and dedicated work by FS activists in Kerala, the concerned guys would've made M$ even richer. Anyway, it is glad to see that the same people behind the IKM project is considering FS as an option now. Let us hope that this afterthought has come as a result of understanding the ideals of FS, rather than seeing it as an opportunity to capture a hitherto untapped vote bank.
It's also interesting to see the silence of our activists for 'democratic free software movement' on the secret meeting on FS organized by CPIM. If what Anivar has written is true, we have to be watchful of the CPIM propagandists in FS forums. Is this a test ground for them? FSF I their first target?
Sandeep,
May be you have some ill-motivation to put baseless allegations against CPI(M). However you may please note that CPI(M) and IKM are separate entity. The fall-out of IKM cannot be ascribed to CPI(M). The concern of CPI(M) is well known and they expressed it briefly in their political resolution adopted by its party congress. Its relevant portion is quoted below
<quote> * Science & Technology
2.75 The development of any country depends in a critical manner on its scientific and technological capabilities. In India, in the era of "economic reform", the turning away from the agenda of self–reliance has meant the downgrading of State support for science and technology. Public sector research organisations and key research programmes are being starved of funds and are suffering for lack of personnel. On the plea of bridging the gap between research and industry, government research organisations are increasingly being turned into contract research organisations, thus providing MNCs with cheap knowledge workers, instead of being allowed to set a forward–looking agenda of scientific and technological research and innovation for the Indian industry.
2.76 This trajectory needs to be reversed. Indian industry, particularly the small and medium scale sector, which provides the bulk of our employment, cannot survive if technology costs are kept high. We need indigenous development of technology to bring down the cost of advanced technology to industry and retain the competitiveness of the small and medium level enterprises. Indian agriculture also needs latest inputs from scientific research to improve its productivity. Therefore, self reliance in science and technology needs to be the focus for a developing country such as India. Currently, almost all of the public funds on R&D are concentrated with the central government and its institutions. There is a need that matching funds be allocated to state governments and its institutions also.
2.77 Open access to scientific and technological knowledge is critically important to developing nations. The information technology sector and the free software movement have shown that new technologies and methodologies can be developed by cooperative communities without monopoly ownership – either through copyrights or patents. There is a need to develop similar ways of promoting "science/knowledge commons", across many different scientific and technological disciplines, like biotechnology and drug discovery.* </quote>
You may get it from this url : http://cpim.org/xix%20cong/19%20Congress.Political.Resolution.pdf
I did not get what you mean by untapped vote bank. If you are talking about free software community, Your assumptions are totally wrong. You may take a survey on voting pattern of free software activist in India, which may enable you to get a better picture.
As a democratic organisaton, CPI(M) cannot conduct a secret meeting. It always used to publish the outcome of its meetings, which are evolved through a democratic processes, in the relevant forums.
- Keraleean
The whole point as I visualise is the chance to organise the IT industry.
As per the Right to Freedom http://www.iloveindia.com/constitution-of-india/right-to-freedom.html and http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html there is nothing wrong in organisation.
From the mail I get the feeling that the author implies that people in
the IT industry are incapable to exercise their freedom to choose whether they want to organise or be organised or not either independently or otherwise.
2009/1/2 Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com:
The whole point as I visualise is the chance to organise the IT industry.
As per the Right to Freedom http://www.iloveindia.com/constitution-of-india/right-to-freedom.html and http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html there is nothing wrong in organisation.
From the mail I get the feeling that the author implies that people in the IT industry are incapable to exercise their freedom to choose whether they want to organise or be organised or not either independently or otherwise.
Please don't put words into my mouth. All I pointed out was what could be in there for left, when Raj asked what could be in the community for the left.
I did not say organising is good or bad. Please read only what I write and not your imaginations. If you want to do that, place your name below it, not mine. The point about organising is a different matter altogether, all I said was there is a chance for left to do it with Free Software. I did not say they already plan it or doing it.
2009/1/2 Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com:
2009/1/1 Raj Mathur raju@linux-delhi.org:
We all have our independent views of local, national and international politics and events.
Again same for new member, if given a chance they could talk about their ideas. Like discussions on India-US nuclear deal when you meet for coffee after a Free Software meet.
I do not see anything wrong in having discussions on absolutely any topic including the Indo-US nuclear deal. What is your problem with that?
2009/1/2 Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com:
I do not see anything wrong in having discussions on absolutely any topic including the Indo-US nuclear deal. What is your problem with that?
I did not say it was a problem. I just laid out what could be done. It is altogether a different debate whether it is right or wrong.
2009/1/3 Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com:
I did not say it was a problem. I just laid out what could be done. It is altogether a different debate whether it is right or wrong.
From Praveen's mail --
"Note: All of this is pure speculations, just to fill the curiosity of Raj (what could be possible). I don't have any proof of any of this happening or discussed. And I do appreciate the efforts party making to promote Free Software."
You were making speculations. That is not appropriate.
2009/1/2 Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com:
You were making speculations. That is not appropriate.
Raj wanted to know why would someone do it. I just visualised what could be done. It may be or may not be, but we will see it. Every one is free to express what they think. I did not want to make speculations and say it is real, you did not even read the full mail first time I think, to have missed the note. I clearly stated it is pure speculation. It might give food for thought to some people. May be even to be careful not to let that happen.
2009/1/3 Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com: <snip>> pure speculation. It might give food for thought to some people. May
be even to be careful not to let that happen.
Now you are clearly making a statement and not just speculating. What is wrong with organisation?
2009/1/2 Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com:
2009/1/3 Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com: <snip>> pure speculation. It might give food for thought to some people. May
be even to be careful not to let that happen.
Now you are clearly making a statement and not just speculating. What is wrong with organisation?
That is not on topic here.
2009/1/3 Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com:
Now you are clearly making a statement and not just speculating. What is wrong with organisation?
That is not on topic here.
You make speculations on everthing related to the topic and then give your opinion that you do not want people to organise and then say "off-topic". What hypocrisy!!
2009/1/2 Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com:
You make speculations on everthing related to the topic and then give your opinion that you do not want people to organise and then say "off-topic". What hypocrisy!!
Vikram,
You can have your own conclusions. I'm unable to talk sense to you. Sorry.
- Praveen
Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com wrote:
You make speculations on everthing related to the topic and then give your opinion that you do not want people to organise and then say "off-topic". What hypocrisy!!
Can we please stop this.
The Indian Express report is clearly an exercise in spin-doctoring, and there was not even a pretense of drawing a line between reportage and the writer's own opinions. Unless the said piece was an editorial or column or something, that is truly sad.
As I read it, Sasi Kumar was trying to contradict what was stated in there. Praveen posited a hypothetical argument to answer Raju's question as on why would a political party bother at all, and he'd clearly stated that was his intention.
Vikram, if you really have to expend your energy on someone, I think this reporter is a good candidate for that.
2009/1/2 Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com:
Again same for new member, if given a chance they could talk about their ideas. Like discussions on India-US nuclear deal when you meet for coffee after a Free Software meet.
The above point projects an apolitical approach and is part of the politics which says that "people should not take part in politics", "politics is dirty", etc... which is anti-democratic politics. If one were to go through the Free Software principles and Eben Moglen's treatise on "The struggle for freedom of thought" and comprehend their meaning then one would see the political shallowness expressed in the above point.
Point: The free software movement is a political movement.
2009/1/2 Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com:
The above point projects an apolitical approach and is part of the politics which says that "people should not take part in politics", "politics is dirty", etc... which is anti-democratic politics. If one were to go through the Free Software principles and Eben Moglen's treatise on "The struggle for freedom of thought" and comprehend their meaning then one would see the political shallowness expressed in the above point.
Point: The free software movement is a political movement.
I did not say politics is good or bad here. All I said was the possibility of discussing things which left care about. You can debate it whether it is good or bad. That was not what I was doing.
2009/1/3 Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com:
I did not say politics is good or bad here. All I said was the possibility of discussing things which left care about. You can debate it whether it is good or bad. That was not what I was doing.
Your mail was in reply to Raj's question(s).
From Praveen's mail --
"Note: All of this is pure speculations, just to fill the curiosity of Raj (what could be possible). I don't have any proof of any of this happening or discussed. And I do appreciate the efforts party making to promote Free Software. "
You were making speculations. That is worse.
On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 1:04 PM, sandeep sr sandeep.sr78@gmail.com wrote:
http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?Title=Comrades%E2%80%99+new-fo...
Who told a party/individual/group about free software for first time, i mean who introduced the concepts for them?
In whatever the case if a party/individual/group are becoming very possesive about certain things shows the strong feelingness about that thing.
Well irrespective of whether a party/individual/group taking over the FSM or FSF-india will not stop contributors from contributing, programmers will always have the urge to program like mucians will have the urge to sing irrespective of any benifits.
well time will tell who is really interested in what and who will get what from whatever they are for..
2009/1/2 renuka prasad renukaprasadb@gmail.com:
Who told a party/individual/group about free software for first time, i mean who introduced the concepts for them?
The struggle for freedom is as old as humanity itself. Free (as in freedom) software (from the last 25 years) is just another expression of that struggle for freedom. So the free software movement has actually learnt about the struggle for freedom from history itself.
On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 4:26 PM, Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.comwrote:
2009/1/2 renuka prasad renukaprasadb@gmail.com:
Who told a party/individual/group about free software for first time, i mean who introduced the concepts for them?
The struggle for freedom is as old as humanity itself. Free (as in freedom) software (from the last 25 years) is just another expression of that struggle for freedom. So the free software movement has actually learnt about the struggle for freedom from history itself.
do so every one does
it may be myself, or you , group,community or a party ther e is no exception. No one can create the thoughts and ideas just like that.. every one has to learn from history
Gravitation existed before newton introduced the concepts to everyone , it is existing now and will exist in future also similarly with other research/inventions/ thoughts/ideas.
We study gravitation telling that newtons law, Like newton many others might have thought and may be even discussed , but he was the one who told the world about his thought and the whole world respected his thoughts ..
Our teachers/parents/friends have taught us gravitation or any other concept may be better than newton ( we dont know ) but we never say that our teachers/parents/friends have introduced gravitation. we always believe and know that it was newtons invention.
This does not mean that gravitation belong to newton or he is the creator..he is the one who introduced the gravitation.
Only 5 % of the people will create history and 95 % studies that .. we all are part of that 95% who read or study 5% history that was created , If we want to be part of that 5% people probably it may require fe w more decades or lifes .
Free softwares existed even before RMS started to program ( read somewhere from rms essays) . it was the group that time existed which shared the softwares most. that time there was no need for any one to exclusively say as free software since the computers that time and the operators who were operating them were suppose to work so....
Later on FSM was initiated................................... etc etc is known to all
Free software addresses and solves very few problems of society not every bodies or every other problem.
2009/1/1 sandeep sr sandeep.sr78@gmail.com:
If opportunists start controlling the Free Software movement, it is very likely that it is the ideals of FS that is going to be modified more than any software under it.
This logic is flawed. No entity can control a Movement. Any Movement is based on certain principles. If I support those principles then I am a part of that Movement and if I change the principles then it is a different/modified Movement. Example, Free Software and Open Source.
Eben Moglen said in his conversations in Bangalore that community is the response of a culture to an Idea. I liked this concept and feel confortable with it. In this definition the Free software community is not a singular entity but a microlithic(multiple) one, with some universal Recognisable characteristics like "Some values which are nearly universal--as universal as values can be in a community of millions--are the preference for public discussion of technical matters, and opposition to software patents and parts of the DMCA." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software_community"
To conitnously stress that community is singular entity would border on arrogance and megalomenia.
Your culture could be different than mine, so please excuse me my cultural reaction to free software like I will do the same for you. But we can co-operate on all aspects that we can identify as universal and mutually agreeable. Unless you are an AK-47 wielding meniac who wants to fix your distro, I can try. Maybe because you think am a christian and you think that along with muslims and communists I am a threat to this country and you choose not to help me with my config's, I am fine. Although I will consider you insane.
Look at the the people who so blatantly discuss Politics and Political parties on this list, they mostly are from places where there is a larger degree of political awareness(Kerala for example). That again is a cultural reaction, which the rest of the list members are putting up with. So whats all this fuss about some political party responding to Free sotware, Atleast its Free software and not atleast yet "Open source" We are putting up with FOSS, the "O" there being largly the culutural response of the bussiness community to free software.
I am from kerala, high literacy, 0% child labour, and high social indices. All thanks to political social movements, excuse me if I try to see free software as an intrument to furthur the social causes. That may or maynot be my response. maybe someone else from Kerala might have got fed up with Politics and show such a cultural reaction.. thats fine also. As long as freedom matters, whats your problems sir's??
Why should I mimic the western response to free software and restrict myself to mere techinical matters, there are people doing that here as well, they are most welcome to do that. I might even to to bar camps or unconferences or even .in's and dot whatever's.
what is all this fuss about??
Guys N Gals - Do you know the reasons for my inactivity ? It is because of my shame of not having enough lines of code or enough contributions to the world of FOSS. I am working on it so that I can rightly paticipate on this mailing list. Please practice FOSS more than you preach it. Thats all my request.
On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 5:15 PM, Laxminarayan Kamath kamathln@gmail.comwrote:
Guys N Gals - Do you know the reasons for my inactivity ? It is because of my shame of not having enough lines of code or enough contributions to the world of FOSS. I am working on it so that I can rightly paticipate on this mailing list. Please practice FOSS more than you preach it. Thats all my request.
Great , looking forward to know more about your contribution. Happy to be around people like you..
-- Laxminarayan Kamath Ammembal http://lankerisms.blogspot.com (+91) 9945036093 _______________________________________________ Fsf-friends mailing list Fsf-friends@mm.gnu.org.in http://mm.gnu.org.in/mailman/listinfo/fsf-friends
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