Why is it that the required files and libraries are not distributed with the package? Can any arrangement be made for the same?
Like... When s/w s are d/l ed one may not be able to install it (errors like ncurses are missing and all) User end people find it very very difficult... They hate searching net for every single thing jus to install one single package. I have been hearing this for a thousand times..
Is it just about the size consumption or is there any other concern??
2007/4/27, Mahesh M maheshmukundan@gmail.com:
Why is it that the required files and libraries are not distributed with the package?
Not necessary.
Can any arrangement be made for the same?
The original problem is already solved using automatic dependency resolution (apt, yum ...)
Like... When s/w s are d/l ed one may not be able to install it (errors like ncurses are missing and all)
there is a different way to do it.
User end people find it very very difficult... They hate searching net for every single thing jus to install one single package.
May be they have been using old stuff. Show them debian etch.
I have been hearing this for a thousand times..
I'm sure not these days.
Is it just about the size consumption or is there any other concern??
Could be one of the concerns. Why would every program install a library which is already installed?
Cheers Praveen
On Fri, 2007-04-27 at 21:07 +0530, Mahesh M wrote:
Why is it that the required files and libraries are not distributed with the package? Can any arrangement be made for the same?
Like... When s/w s are d/l ed one may not be able to install it (errors like ncurses are missing and all) User end people find it very very difficult... They hate searching net for every single thing jus to install one single package. I have been hearing this for a thousand times..
This need not be a problem when one is installing from the Net. Most distributions now have package managers that can automatically download and install dependencies from the Net. A problem occurs when one is trying to install an application from a CD or DVD distributed by, say, a magazine, and it provides only that package and you have to download the dependencies. The problem becomes sever if the machine is not connected to the Net, obviously.
Best
On 4/28/07, V. Sasi Kumar sasi.fsf@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, 2007-04-27 at 21:07 +0530, Mahesh M wrote:
Why is it that the required files and libraries are not distributed with
the
package? Can any arrangement be made for the same?
Like... When s/w s are d/l ed one may not be able to install it (errors
like
ncurses are missing and all) User end people find it very very difficult... They hate searching net
for
every single thing jus to install one single package. I have been hearing this for a thousand times..
This need not be a problem when one is installing from the Net. Most distributions now have package managers that can automatically download and install dependencies from the Net.
is there a way of installing the packages that do not belong to repositiry. I dont think that driver files of modem and all can be integrated to package manager. We usually use dpkg, alien or rpm (rather I and my friends !!) And they (not the latest one :) )do not have anything called "satisfy dependency by checking the net" option!! And even the newer versions arent that friendly as user needs to know host ID, user name passwd, address etc. Nobody is bothered to sacrifice so much of time for such a thing!
A problem occurs when one is
trying to install an application from a CD or DVD distributed by, say, a magazine, and it provides only that package and you have to download the dependencies. The problem becomes sever if the machine is not connected to the Net, obviously.
Exactly .. But is there any solution. Since in country like India, we cant expect the users to get a quality connection, rather sometimes any net-connection at all!
Best
-- V. Sasi Kumar sasi.fsf@gmail.com Free Software Foundation of India
Fsf-friends mailing list Fsf-friends@mm.gnu.org.in http://mm.gnu.org.in/mailman/listinfo/fsf-friends
2007/4/27, Mahesh M maheshmukundan@gmail.com:
is there a way of installing the packages that do not belong to repositiry. I dont think that driver files of modem and all can be integrated to package manager. We usually use dpkg, alien or rpm (rather I and my friends !!) And they (not the latest one :) )do not have anything called "satisfy dependency by checking the net" option!! And even the newer versions arent that friendly as user needs to know host ID, user name passwd, address etc. Nobody is bothered to sacrifice so much of time for such a thing!
Have you heard of apt or synaptic? you can go to this page and read about it http://www.google.com/search?q=apt
If you don't want to use whatever is available and blame others, I can't help. When you say you are using dpkg, alien or rpm that means you know what to do and you don't need any help from apt. aptitude, synaptic, pirut or kynaptic.
Exactly .. But is there any solution. Since in country like India, we cant expect the users to get a quality connection, rather sometimes any net-connection at all!
you can get the cds/dvds from sujeevan in kannore, you can call him or write a postal mail. He even sends it as vpp I think. So lack of internet is not an issue. Learning a different way of doing things is.
Cheers Praveen
Praveenji,
On 4/29/07, Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com wrote:
2007/4/27, Mahesh M maheshmukundan@gmail.com:
is there a way of installing the packages that do not belong to
repositiry.
I dont think that driver files of modem and all can be integrated to
package
manager. We usually use dpkg, alien or rpm (rather I and my friends !!)
And
they (not the latest one :) )do not have anything called "satisfy
dependency
by checking the net" option!! And even the newer versions arent that friendly as user needs to know host ID, user name passwd, address etc. Nobody is bothered to sacrifice so much of time for such a thing!
Have you heard of apt or synaptic? you can go to this page and read about it http://www.google.com/search?q=apt
I know what apt is, what it does. I do use aptitude and synaptic pakage manager. The alien, dpkg and rpm are also some wat knon to me.
If you don't want to use whatever is available and blame others, I
can't help. When you say you are using dpkg, alien or rpm that means you know what to do and you don't need any help from apt. aptitude, synaptic, pirut or kynaptic.
Its not about i knowing all these. But if a newbee comes and uses it... Will he have all the patients to sit and learn all these.. Sorry to say, but such an attitude in us is perhaps the greatest strrength for M$ idiots... We never bother to think in the way of those people who dont even know how to use computer. I hope GNU/Linux is not just for the Engg. guys. Though a lot of work have been done in simplifying all these to some extend, many of them never occur within few clicks.. Does it? And a lot of prequisites are expected, rt.. Why the hell should a normal user try to know how things work inside. They can never see the beauty of Synaptic Package Manager. All they want is, U put a CD that is supposed to install x, y, z..., and it does it without much interaction with user. Many are used to such a kind of work. They are not patient enough. I may do it, thats coz i like doing it. But all are not like that. Are they?
Exactly .. But is there any solution. Since in country like India, we cant
expect the users to get a quality connection, rather sometimes any net-connection at all!
you can get the cds/dvds from sujeevan in kannore, you can call him or write a postal mail. He even sends it as vpp I think.
How many of the *normal* users are aware of such a guy..? How many of them will try to find out? And will he be able to distribute it through the country? See in such a percpective where in the need of the user is completly satisfied.. The costemer point of view.
So lack of
internet is not an issue. Learning a different way of doing things is.
How many users will *dare* to do experiments with their new PC? How many will even *think* of learning to do things, in a world like this. I have a million students, mostly avg guys, who donot understand the complexities of things behind computers, coming and asking me such simple questions. I have seen things in their point of view. I do undersatand their concern. For eg. Just revise the mail of Antony.. He too perhaps has felt the same.. they want things to be simple. And they will go for that which is simple.
Cheers
Praveen
-- പ്രവീണ് അരിമ്പ്രത്തൊടിയില് Join The DRM Elimination Crew Now! http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/Anti-DRM-Campaign
I am not saying for argument sake.. Jus felt there is a need for such a change.. Thats why.. And pls dont fire me this way !!! :-) Ha ha...
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2007/4/29, Mahesh M maheshmukundan@gmail.com:
I know what apt is, what it does. I do use aptitude and synaptic pakage manager. The alien, dpkg and rpm are also some wat knon to me.
But from your earlier mail, it didn't look like so. Why would you want to use rpm, alien and dpkg when you know apt/aptitude and synaptic does the dependency resolution and expect rpm/dpkg to resolve dependencies when you know well that they won't?
Would a new user go to command line and type dpkg or he goes to menu and click on synaptic?
Its not about i knowing all these. But if a newbee comes and uses it... Will he have all the patients to sit and learn all these.. Sorry to say, but such an attitude in us is perhaps the greatest strrength for M$ idiots...
What is there to learn about synaptic? Does he have to worry about dependencies? All software listed in synaptic are tested to work with the rest of the system.
We never bother to think in the way of those people who dont even know how to use computer. I hope GNU/Linux is not just for the Engg. guys. Though a lot of work have been done in simplifying all these to some extend, many of them never occur within few clicks.. Does it? And a lot of prequisites are expected, rt..
I thought the default install suffice for those who don't know how to use a computer. They have a web browser, email client, office program which can read and write their MS Office files, have a chat program that works with all popular IM services, a music player and movie player that plays popular formats (debian comes with mp3 and mpeg support, he might need some tweaking if he has videos in proprietary, and the issue is legal).
Why the hell should a normal user try to know how things work inside. They can never see the beauty of Synaptic Package Manager. All they want is, U put a CD that is supposed to install x, y, z..., and it does it without much interaction with user. Many are used to such a kind of work. They are not patient enough. I may do it, thats coz i like doing it. But all are not like that. Are they?
I still don't get it. Are you assuming things? Isn't it how it works already? [Well, I agree it wasn't like this before, but why would we worry about problems which we have already resolved]. Give them th 3 debian etch dvds. It has everything that they needs (minus things which we cannot have it legally). Now if you want to make that too easier for the newbie user you can do it. Would you spent some time on it?
Ok do it this way. go to http://debian-multimedia.org/
add the repositories to your sources.list
install w32codecs and other which you think a normal user would need. You might want to include beryl http://debian.beryl-project.org/ in the cd as well.
(you are not considered as a normal user so you could do all this easily or with some effort in learning stuff).
Now create a local repository. Here you will have some details http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/apt-howto/ch-basico.en.html#s-dpkg-scanpac...
burn the repository onto a cd. Now upload the cd image on the net if you like. Give the cd to the 'users'. They can add the cd to their repository using gui alone. Open synaptic and go to edit -> add cdrom
now browse the multimedia list and install the required package. Now before you cry it is difficult show us what you have done to change the situation. This is not rocket science. Show us the cd (I have done this before).
How many of the *normal* users are aware of such a guy..? How many of them will try to find out?
You can tell them right? Why are you not doing anything to change the situation and blame everyone else? Are you not part of the community? can't you do this simple thing (make a cd with the required dependencies to make life easier for the normal user)?
And will he be able to distribute it through the country? See in such a percpective where in the need of the user is completly satisfied.. The costemer point of view.
Are you ready to pay for the service. We are talking about Free as in Freedom not as in Free cds or Free service. If you pay him he will be ready to offer his service till you are happy.
How many users will *dare* to do experiments with their new PC? How many will even *think* of learning to do things, in a world like this. I have a million students, mostly avg guys, who donot understand the complexities of things behind computers, coming and asking me such simple questions. I have seen things in their point of view. I do undersatand their concern. For eg. Just revise the mail of Antony.. He too perhaps has felt the same.. they want things to be simple. And they will go for that which is simple.
Don't bring students here as normal users. They need to know how things work, because they are going to make new things in the world. Who said everyone has to spent time on experimenting, you could pay someone to do it for you. Now there is http://zyxware.com/ in TVM who offers support for PCs and laptops with Free Software. Yes it is very simple now. Just call up this guys, tell them what you want, they will do it for you, and pay for the time they have spent. We are not talking about Free lunch or illegal copying here. Hope you get it. Show me the add on cd before you reply. [You are a computer science engineering student and you could do it very easily]
Cheers Praveen
2007/4/27, V. Sasi Kumar sasi.fsf@gmail.com:
This need not be a problem when one is installing from the Net.
Or you haver 21 CDs or 3 DVDs (the entire debian archive)
Most distributions now have package managers that can automatically download and install dependencies from the Net.
It can install from CD/DVD also and I use this all the time.
A problem occurs when one is trying to install an application from a CD or DVD distributed by, say, a magazine, and it provides only that package and you have to download the dependencies. The problem becomes sever if the machine is not connected to the Net, obviously.
Totally incorrect. You just have to have 3 DVDs/21 CDs or a local repository (I guess space at TVM has the entire repository, its about 15GB). If you don't want to have all of the cds, you can chose as many as you decide, say 4 cds. Now if you want to install some software that is not in the first 4 cds. You can download it on a machine connected to net and have it on a usb or cd (I do this also all the time). Its not rocket science.
Cheers Praveen
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Mahesh M -
Praveen A -
V. Sasi Kumar