Hello Friends,
I am here to inform you about an issue in 11th Class. Now I am studying in 11th class - Computer Science. Our text book is following the proprietary C++ compiler (Turbo C++ Compiler) and there is nothing about Software freedom and importance of free software.
We are forced to follow the proprietary environment. Even a few students don't know what the free software is? But some of them heard about 'Linux' but they don't know what is GNU.
Last year, there were topics about GNU/Linux and M$ Windows in our 10th class IT@School text books. As a result of struggles done by FSF India, GNU/Linux gained prominence in IT syllabus from this year. LAst year, I Also Noticed the news which had come in newspapers - "Govt promised to give importance to free software in 10th class syllabus and Govt had announced that the coming 11th class Computer Sc syllabus will give importance to free software and GNU/Linux"
Now Govt didn't follow their announcement. We are following same and old Com Sc syllabus with proprietary environment!
we are the Ist batch who followed GNU/Linux and M$ Windows last year. Now we are forced to use proprietary software.
g++, gcc is the best compiler and is a freesoftware, then why should we follow Turbo? which is a proprietary?
There should be some topics to describe the importance of Free Software, and something should be done to make GNU/Linux as the default platform.
I'm waiting for your comments.
Thanking you, Sarath Lakshman
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Hi,
--- Sarath Lakshman sarathlakshman@yahoo.com wrote:
g++, gcc is the best compiler and is a freesoftware, then why should we follow Turbo? which is a proprietary?
As long as you ask questions like these and start reasoning out, you will definitely learn and your knowledge will grow. Keep it up.
Students are being forced to follow a system that does not teach them to think. Last time when I asked a student about compilation in the GNU/Linux workshop at Madurai, the student replied that compilation was Alt + F9. Huh!
SK
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On Mon, 22 Aug 2005, Shakthi Kannan wrote:
g++, gcc is the best compiler and is a freesoftware, then why should we follow Turbo? which is a proprietary?
As long as you ask questions like these and start reasoning out, you will definitely learn and your knowledge will grow. Keep it up.
Students are being forced to follow a system that does not teach them to think. Last time when I asked a student about compilation in the GNU/Linux workshop at Madurai, the student replied that compilation was Alt + F9. Huh!
I hope, those students are from engg college ;) Then just imagine the state of the school students. They are forced to memories the short cuts of M$ Word.
Recently in TamilNadu +1 syllabus, one chapter is dedicated to Linux. I hope, it may help to increase the awareness of FOSS.
The major blocker is, There is no update program for school teachers. 2nd, We still following the Old education system, formed by English people for their need, where asking Qus and doing research is not encouraged.
Bye :)
On 8/22/05, Bharathi Subramanian sbharathi@midascomm.com wrote:
The major blocker is, There is no update program for school teachers.
The government seems to have got one, from Microsoft. http://sify.com/finance/fullstory.php?id=13922642
"Microsoft IT training for TN teachers" - Arpit
Hello,
--- Sarath Lakshman sarathlakshman@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello Friends,
I am here to inform you about an issue in 11th Class. Now I am studying in 11th class - Computer Science. Our text book is following the proprietary C++ compiler (Turbo C++ Compiler) and there is nothing about Software freedom and importance of free software.
C++ is a horrible language to teach introductory Computer Science - you spend most of the time struggling with syntax; time which is better spent studying the problem solving process itself. We need to:
a) Kick out C/C++ from our +2 syllabus and introduce Scheme/Python instead (the TeachScheme project is trying to do this in the US; they have a great GPL'd programming environment for Scheme called Dr.Scheme and a very well written textbook called `How To Design programs' both of which are extremely innovative)
b) Kick out DOS/Windoze and introduce GNU/Linux instead.
Are there members on the list who think along similar lines; can we do something for this?
Pramode ----------
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On Tue, 23 Aug 2005, Pramode C.E. wrote:
a) Kick out C/C++ from our +2 syllabus and introduce Scheme/Python instead (the TeachScheme project is trying to do this in the US; they have a great GPL'd programming environment for Scheme called Dr.Scheme and a very well written textbook called `How To Design programs' both of which are extremely innovative)
I also really impressed by the Scheme, Thanks to AB. But switch from C to Scheme may take more time. Bcoz Govt needs to give training to teachers. Presently most of govt, taking the decision in favor of M$, only in the point of training (+ Money ;))
b) Kick out DOS/Windoze and introduce GNU/Linux instead.
To start, switch HSC syllabus to GNU/Linux is important.
Are there members on the list who think along similar lines; can we do something for this?
Filling a Public litigation case in the High Court, will help in this regard.
Bye :)
On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 08:00 +0100, Pramode C.E. wrote:
C++ is a horrible language to teach introductory Computer Science - you spend most of the time struggling with syntax; time which is better spent studying the problem solving process itself. We need to:
a) Kick out C/C++ from our +2 syllabus and introduce Scheme/Python instead (the TeachScheme project is trying to do this in the US; they have a great GPL'd programming environment for Scheme called Dr.Scheme and a very well written textbook called `How To Design programs' both of which are extremely innovative)
b) Kick out DOS/Windoze and introduce GNU/Linux instead.
We are all agreed on this. Atleast, I think we do. If you see what the syllabus contains, you would faint. They have virtually everything that there may be to study about C++. One Higher Secondary teacher told me that most of what they studied in MCA is included in the syllabus!
But one problem everyone is facing is that many parents want their children to study things like C++, which they think will be 'useful'. Another problem is that the members of the syllabus committees are not aware of anything other than C++, Java, etc. and they possibly think things like Perl or Python are inferior. These are two obstacles that are difficult to overcome today. Of course, the third problem is that most of the teachers have hardly any idea of anything other than C or C ++. I remember that Arun and others had made an effort to introduce something else instead of Basic in the high school classes, which was rejected outright because no one on the board had any idea of anything else. We have a tough task ahead.
On the other hand, the leading teachers association in Kerala is taking a strong interest in promoting Free Software. So there is a reasonable chance that most schools here would be using GNU/Linux in the high school IT education in a couple of years.
--- "V. Sasi Kumar" sasi.fsf@gmail.com wrote:
But one problem everyone is facing is that many parents want their children to study things like C++, which they think will be 'useful'. Another problem is that the members of the syllabus committees are not aware of anything other than C++, Java, etc. and they possibly think things like Perl or Python are inferior. These are
Yes; it's a rather hard problem to solve. One solution might be to first introduce teachers to the wonderful world of tools like Python/Scheme as part of the process of introducing them to GNU/Linux; I am sure that motivated math/science teachers would have absolutely no difficulty in assimilating a virtually algebraic and syntax-free language like Scheme. Once we have the teachers hooked, we might thinking of spreading the movement down towards the students.
Pramode ----------
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Some time back we started a petition at GNU Bangalore for VTU ( Now this one is University level). You can get the updates at http://bangalore.gnu.org.in/?VTU-FLOSS_Campaign-status
On 8/23/05, Pramode C.E. pramode_ce@yahoo.co.in wrote:
--- "V. Sasi Kumar" sasi.fsf@gmail.com wrote:
But one problem everyone is facing is that many parents want their children to study things like C++, which they think will be 'useful'. Another problem is that the members of the syllabus committees are not aware of anything other than C++, Java, etc. and they possibly think things like Perl or Python are inferior. These are
Yes; it's a rather hard problem to solve. One solution might be to first introduce teachers to the wonderful world of tools like Python/Scheme as part of the process of introducing them to GNU/Linux; I am sure that motivated math/science teachers would have absolutely no difficulty in assimilating a virtually algebraic and syntax-free language like Scheme. Once we have the teachers hooked, we might thinking of spreading the movement down towards the students.
Pramode
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On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 09:37 -0700, Sarath Lakshman wrote:
I am here to inform you about an issue in 11th Class. Now I am studying in 11th class - Computer Science. Our text book is following the proprietary C++ compiler (Turbo C++ Compiler) and there is nothing about Software freedom and importance of free software.
Actually, the textbook only says C++. What compiler is to be used is decided by the school, as far as I know. The syllabus was revised to take into account the fact that students like you who joined the 11th standard this year have already been trained in using computer applications. The change is more visible in the syllabus for students of Commerce and other subjects. However, Free Software as such has not made an entry. This is because the revision was only superficial since it was done at the last minute and there was no time to rewrite the textbooks. Let us hope the government will change this at least next year. Meanwhile, if the new IT@School GNU/Linux distribution becomes popular in schools, there is every chance that many schools will naturally switch over to gcc in the Plus 2 level.
The same problem will arise in the case of database also. Although the textbook discusses only SQL, many schools may use proprietary versions and not MySQL or PostgreSQL.
A more serious problem exists in the case of Commerce students, who have to learn Visual Basic!
If your teachers are receptive, you can try to show them that gcc is the best compiler available, and that it is Free. But they may want a graphical interface.
Best
On Tue, Aug 23, 2005 at 10:22:01AM -0400, V. Sasi Kumar wrote:
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 09:37 -0700, Sarath Lakshman wrote:
I am here to inform you about an issue in 11th Class. Now I am studying in 11th class - Computer Science. Our text book is following the proprietary C++
A more serious problem exists in the case of Commerce students, who have to learn Visual Basic!
If your teachers are receptive, you can try to show them that gcc is the best compiler available, and that it is Free. But they may want a graphical interface.
xwpe and g++-2.95 (just to avoid no-deprecated warning)
if using Debian GNU/Linux apt-get install xwpe g++-2.95
created a soft link ln -sf /usr/bin/g++-2.85 /usr/bin/g++
run wpe at command prompt or xwpe in xterminal
With regards
M.Balakrishna Pillai
Sir,
Last day I made a long conversation with my friends who are studying Com Sc. I was talking about free software. While I was talking about GNU/Linux, one of them asked me "'Bill Gates is a great person', We get M$ Windows freely and how he gets money?". I was astonished to learn that not only him, most of the students don't know how he makes money. Most Com Sc students is thinking like this. They don't even know what is the difference between proprietary and free software. They don't know the Need of free software, the problem of Licensing etc..
I explained the facts about Free Software, Beginning of GNU Project, The power of GNU/Linux and some technical details. They were actually surprised!! and told me that it was interesting. They were interested in free software. I explained them the problems regarding 'Patents, Copyrights'.
While going through our 11th class Com Sc syllabus, its nothing, its only about some technicals...also the syllabus is following details about old technolgies. It contains - only about:
What is Information? Need of Information? What is Computer? What is data processing? The steps of data processing?, Number Systems........C++ basics..etc.
while our teacher was teaching about Primary and Secondary memory, She told that only there are three types of RAM. - Static, Dynamic, Synchronous Dynamic. I think these facts are old. Now a days, its very rare
to get a SD RAM. All new motherboards support only DDR SD RAM. Then how can we accept that?
Even after completing +2, the Com Sc students won't know the real things like The Need of Free Software in India, Its possibilities, Difference between 'GNU/Linux and M$ Windows'. They may only remember some syntax in C++ and some defenisions of Computers and Information.
I am explaining the point that 'Free Software can only make the Com SC an experience'. So the need of Free Software in 11th Class is inevitable. From this year itself there should be Free Software.. Atleast it should be able to conduct some free software awareness programs and workshops for 11th class students.
How can we implement these things?
Thanking you, Sarath Lakshman www.slynux.org
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I am explaining the point that 'Free Software can only make the Com SC an experience'. So the need of Free Software in 11th Class is inevitable. From this year itself there should be Free Software.. Atleast it should be able to conduct some free software awareness programs and workshops for 11th class students.
The MCA/CS students of GEC Trichur are actively looking out for schools/colleges where they can conduct awareness programs covering the philosophical and technical aspects of Free Software (the technical part would cover an introduction to the Phoenix experimental physics platform which I believe you had witnessed). Please let me know if you are interested in arranging such a programme.
Pramode ----------
================================== Computer Science is no more about Computers than astronomy is about telescopes. Edsger Dijkstra.
http://pramode.net ==================================
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Sir,
Last day I made a long conversation with my friends who are studying Com Sc. I was talking about free software. While I was talking about GNU/Linux, one of them asked me "'Bill Gates is a great person', We get M$ Windows freely and how he gets money?". I was astonished to learn that not only him, most of the students don't know how he makes money. Most Com Sc students is thinking like this. They don't even know what is the difference between proprietary and free software. They don't know the Need of free software, the problem of Licensing etc..
I explained the facts about Free Software, Beginning of GNU Project, The power of GNU/Linux and some technical details. They were actually surprised!! and told me that it was interesting. They were interested in free software. I explained them the problems regarding 'Patents, Copyrights'.
While going through our 11th class Com Sc syllabus, its nothing, its only about some technicals...also the syllabus is following details about old technolgies. It contains - only about:
What is Information? Need of Information? What is Computer? What is data processing? The steps of data processing?, Number Systems........C++ basics..etc.
while our teacher was teaching about Primary and Secondary memory, She told that only there are three types of RAM. - Static, Dynamic, Synchronous Dynamic. I think these facts are old. Now a days, its very rare
to get a SD RAM. All new motherboards support only DDR SD RAM. Then how can we accept that?
Even after completing +2, the Com Sc students won't know the real things like The Need of Free Software in India, Its possibilities, Difference between 'GNU/Linux and M$ Windows'. They may only remember some syntax in C++ and some defenisions of Computers and Information.
I am explaining the point that 'Free Software can only make the Com SC an experience'. So the need of Free Software in 11th Class is inevitable. From this year itself there should be Free Software.. Atleast it should be able to conduct some free software awareness programs and workshops for 11th class students.
How can we implement these things?
Thanking you, Sarath Lakshman www.slynux.org --- "V. Sasi Kumar" sasi.fsf@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 09:37 -0700, Sarath Lakshman wrote:
I am here to inform you about an issue in 11th
Class.
Now I am studying in 11th class - Computer
Science.
Our text book is following the proprietary C++ compiler (Turbo C++ Compiler) and there is nothing about Software freedom and importance of free software.
Actually, the textbook only says C++. What compiler is to be used is decided by the school, as far as I know. The syllabus was revised to take into account the fact that students like you who joined the 11th standard this year have already been trained in using computer applications. The change is more visible in the syllabus for students of Commerce and other subjects. However, Free Software as such has not made an entry. This is because the revision was only superficial since it was done at the last minute and there was no time to rewrite the textbooks. Let us hope the government will change this at least next year. Meanwhile, if the new IT@School GNU/Linux distribution becomes popular in schools, there is every chance that many schools will naturally switch over to gcc in the Plus 2 level.
The same problem will arise in the case of database also. Although the textbook discusses only SQL, many schools may use proprietary versions and not MySQL or PostgreSQL.
A more serious problem exists in the case of Commerce students, who have to learn Visual Basic!
If your teachers are receptive, you can try to show them that gcc is the best compiler available, and that it is Free. But they may want a graphical interface.
Best
V. Sasi Kumar sasi.fsf@gmail.com Free Software Foundation of India
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Hi,
--- Sarath Lakshman sarathlakshman@yahoo.com wrote:
How can we implement these things?
Not sure from which city you are from. You could ask your friends to join the monthly/weekly LUG meets in your city.
People are ignorant. We have to show them the light.
SK
------------------------------------------------------------ Shakthi Kannan, MS Software Engineer, Specsoft (Hexaware Technologies) [E]: cyborg4k@yahoo.com [M]: (91) 98407-87007 [W]: http://www.shakthimaan.com [L]: Chennai, India ------------------------------------------------------------
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Sarath Lakshman wrote:
Hello Friends,
I am here to inform you about an issue in 11th Class. Now I am studying in 11th class - Computer Science. Our text book is following the proprietary C++ compiler (Turbo C++ Compiler) and there is nothing about Software freedom and importance of free software.
(This response is under the assumption you are talking about the CBSE. And it's technically more of a response to many bits of this thread rather than just this one e-mail. I can see how this will be construed as rude, but it felt awkward the other way too -- tiny snippets littering the thread.)
I am curious, what is the name of this text book? I was part of the first batch that was introduced to C++ (instead of Pascal?) as the programming language of choice for 11/12th standard. As far as I remember, there was no text book as such (at that time) from the NCERT, and schools ended up doing whatever was convenient. My school was (as I guess most were) a DOS/Netware shop, and they encouraged the use of Robert Lafore's Object-Oriented Programming in C++. This book, if I recall correctly, dealt with things from the context of Turbo C++, which is what they naturally ended up installing.
I also assumed the choice had a lot to do with this development environment having a similar IDE to TurboPascal(?) which is what they used before to be the driving force behind this decision. I am sure teachers experience inertia just as much as the next person.
But I remember (I don't remember the names of the schools themselves) people from other schools using UNIX (which I am sure was GNU/Linux to the untrained eye), and gcc. But just as someone said people saying 'Alt-F9' for what goes on(?) during compilation, there were equally nonsensical statements regarding 'needing to struggle' with UNIX (by which they meant figuring out vi) as a prerequisite for learning to program. Some people perpetually fail to see the difference between concepts and a practicalities that go along with a particular implementation
Not to stir up controversy, but I quite disagree with the popular opinion here that C++ is a horrible language for introductory computer science. "Struggling with syntax" is a trivial, non-objective issue, and can be raised about any programming environment. I might just as well as say, for example, that "keeping track of all those parentheses is hard" when it comes to lambda calculus. I think the bigger problem is the clear lack of distinction between concepts or algorithms (or pseudo code) and actual implementation, even amongst teachers (at least the ones who taught me).
Clearly define a conceptual solution to a problem (which is what the syllabus should probably really be about), and most somewhat-well-designed languages will allow for relatively painless implementation. I don't, philosophically or implementation-difficulty-wise, see any difference between a Python (for example) program and a modern C++ program (properly utilizing STL and what not). Really, you can get just as much done in as few lines and it's just as easy to read. You can just as easily abstract system specific details and focus on the conceptual problem solution.
But as a bonus, if you want, you also get to get your hands dirty with really low level system specific stuff, which most of the other alternatives proposed clearly dissuade. I, and many people I know, sometimes like to tinker with things beyond these sand boxed environments.
Harish
--- Harish Narayanan harish@gamebox.net wrote:
Not to stir up controversy, but I quite disagree with the popular opinion here that C++ is a horrible language for introductory computer science. "Struggling with syntax" is a trivial, non-objective issue, and
True - to a very small number of people who have the maturity, intellectual sophistication (and maybe experience) to disentangle the syntax from the wider canvas of problem solving strategies. You are lucky to fall into this minority ....
can be raised about any programming environment. I might just as well as say, for example, that "keeping track of all those parentheses is hard"
Of course not - please try using the Dr.Scheme interactive environment together with the book `How to Design Programs'. There is enough evidence to prove that the best way to introduce programming is to start off in an `assignment-free' `functional' way laying emphasis on stuff like recursion, higher order functions, closures etc and later on introducing state and `mutation' as advanced techniques.
when it comes to lambda calculus. I think the bigger problem is the clear lack of distinction between concepts or algorithms (or pseudo code) and actual implementation, even amongst teachers (at least the ones who taught me).
Very true.
Clearly define a conceptual solution to a problem (which is what the syllabus should probably really be about), and most somewhat-well-designed languages will allow for relatively painless implementation.
The language does have a role to play in how well (and how easily) you can implement things ... can you think of teaching the design of a backtracking Prolog-like engine or a `metacircular' evaluator to beginning students in C++? (the classic CS textbook, `Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs' discusses stuff like this - as part of a common introductory course in computer programming).
I don't, philosophically or implementation-difficulty-wise, see any difference between a Python (for example) program and a modern C++ program (properly utilizing STL and what not). Really, you can get just as much done in as few lines and it's just as easy to read. You can just as easily abstract system specific details and focus on the conceptual problem solution.
But as a bonus, if you want, you also get to get your hands dirty with really low level system specific stuff, which most of the other alternatives proposed clearly dissuade.
The modern approach to teaching CS is that we begin with not any particular `algorithm' or implementation details in mind - but with the common strategies used for tackling the complexitites involved in large scale systems design. A language like Scheme, as presented in SICP, is ideal for this. We then move forward to lower levels, ultimately understanding the design of the electronics circuitry on which our code runs and the subtle interface between hardware and software as presented so beautifully by Patterson and Hennessy in their classic book on Computer Organization. At this level, we will have to throw away Python/Scheme etc and look at C/assembly.
I, and many people I know, sometimes like to tinker with things beyond these sand boxed environments.
Nothing prevents a Python/Scheme hacker from learning C/assembly - I find all of them highly enjoyable, each from it's on perspective.
Harish
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