the thing is what do we do now???

We should all press for the proposed TRIPS review (It should have been in 2000 -- in 1995 when the TRIPS agreement was propsed they suggested a review of it after 5 years but not yet done).

Our minister says the bill is passed because of the committment and now we should ask the favour (our right) back and press strongly for the TRIPS review in the next WTO ministerial meeting with Brazil and China.

PS: Last time in Doha Muraisoli Maran did a great job with Brazil and China in making WTO accept the TRIPS flexibilities -- like compulsory licensing. But with Kamal Nath in the post -- I'm sceptical (sighs...)

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:44:25 -0800, Anand Babu ab@gnu.org.in wrote:

,----[ Ramanraj K ramanraj.k@gmail.com ] | http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/000200503222001.htm | | <quote> | Lok Sabha passes Patents Bill | ...The Bill provides for product patents in drugs, agri-products and | embedded software... | </quote> `---- This is very disappointing. But obviously we are not going to give up. What is our next step?

that is what I am wondering about ?? :(

-- Anand Babu GPG Key ID: 0x62E15A31 Personal Blog [http://freedom.freeshell.org] The GNU Operating System [http://www.gnu.org]

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IMHO, we should read what is reported in the papers closely. All the news says is that the bill was passed by the Lok Sabha. Now, it will go the the Rajya Sabha, which, usually aproveswithin a feew minutes.

Now, who can change that?

Does the President have the authority to at least send the bill back for review? One would hope that the President with his pro-free and open source stance can be made aware of the potential harm this bill can do?

Ragavan

On Tue, 2005-03-22 at 09:44 -0800, Anand Babu wrote:

,----[ Ramanraj K ramanraj.k@gmail.com ] | http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/000200503222001.htm | | <quote> | Lok Sabha passes Patents Bill | ...The Bill provides for product patents in drugs, agri-products and | embedded software... | </quote> `---- This is very disappointing. But obviously we are not going to give up. What is our next step?

Apart from the disappointing event, I had a related query. How open is the patent process in India? Are granted and pending patents available for review publicly on the Net like the US PTO? OR do we have to do it the desi style (the freedom of information act style) .. where you go to the patent office in person, and pay for a copy of the documents.

- Sandip

-- Sandip Bhattacharya * Puroga Technologies * sandip@puroga.com Work: http://www.puroga.com * Home/Blog: http://www.sandipb.net/blog

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On Tue, Mar 22, 2005 at 09:44:25AM -0800, Anand Babu wrote:

...

...

,----[ Ramanraj K ramanraj.k@gmail.com ] | http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/000200503222001.htm | | <quote> | Lok Sabha passes Patents Bill | ...The Bill provides for product patents in drugs, agri-products and | embedded software... | </quote> `---- This is very disappointing. But obviously we are not going to give up. What is our next step?

-- Anand Babu GPG Key ID: 0x62E15A31 Personal Blog [http://freedom.freeshell.org] The GNU Operating System [http://www.gnu.org]

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---End of quoted Text---

Nice to see your determination not to give up on this. Hope it rubs onto at least a few of us here.

The best thing to do (should have been done much earlier) is for the FSF-India office bearers and working committee members to fix an appointment with the President of India and also the relevant ministers in charge of pushing the bill (Kamal Nath or whoever) and try handing them a petition showing them clearly the hazards of implementing the patent amendment bill under WTO pressure tactics without first and foremost protecting the intrests of our nation and our IT sector among a host of other sectors some as vital as health, medicare and agriculture which is still the backbone of our nation.

They may still manage to pass the bill in spite of our petitions but then at least we have done our part to the best of our abilities.

These reports are good news, but they don't mean we have won. If the old patent law is allowing software patents in, keeping it unchanged won't keep them out.

We have to do something more. But we have lost the chance to try to use this patent bill to do it. Ramanraj thinks these patents are invalid and that the law is being misapplied. Is there a way to convince the patent office of that? Should we go to court and see? Or should we hope that doubts about validity restrain the patent holders from using their patents against Indian software developers and users?

Richard Stallman wrote:

These reports are good news, but they don't mean we have won. If the old patent law is allowing software patents in, keeping it unchanged won't keep them out.

We have to do something more. But we have lost the chance to try to use this patent bill to do it. Ramanraj thinks these patents are invalid and that the law is being misapplied. Is there a way to convince the patent office of that? Should we go to court and see? Or should we hope that doubts about validity restrain the patent holders from using their patents against Indian software developers and users?

Defending false and illegal claims should be easier.

Before we proceed to the effect of grant of patents, it would be useful to understand the system of *land* registration in vogue in India. Land is immovable, physically verifiable, could be surveyed, measured and described rather accurately with help of landmarks, field maps, ariel surveys, satellite pictures etc.

Globally, two systems of land registration exist:

[1]Deed System followed in India etc.

[2]Torrens System, in vogue in Australia, Canada etc.

Under the Torrens system, registration both notifies about the transfer and also actually vests the land in the transfree. Whereas, under the Deed System followed in India, transfer of immovable properties is made by execution and registration, where the Registrar is duty-bound to register the deed without examination of the validity of the same. Mere registration gives no assurance to the purchaser as to the title in land. It is a general statement to the world that a particular document has been executed. A person with no interest may sell, say even a clearly public place such as Marina Beach, with little or no consequence, except that the Registration department has earned some revenue by way of stamp duty. Naturally, the Deed System is an easy source for disputes between those who own property, and one of the main source of "work" for lawyers in the civil side. Such is the system of *land* registration in vogue in India - a far cry from the Torrens system.

Now, Patents are "intellectual properties" abstracted out of the thin air. Though originally, the Patent Offices appear to have insisted upon the production of a real and working model of the invention, it is no longer the rule, and the invention is merely asserted airily under a written document and there is no need to map the abstract to a working model of the invention. "Prior art" is just that - any "art" that may exist in prior filings. It is believed that 30 million patents are in force. Given our *land* registration system, please imagine the kind of verification that could be done to rule out prior art. Grant of patents is definitely not infallible, and naturally, they could be questioned before a court. The claims of the patentee are taken at face value and do not mean much.

Arun has listed some of the "patents" granted recently, and there is one regarding a method of payment. Nothing could be more comical. Legal tender of money is defined by law, and it is innane nonsense to grant a patent for a method of payment. We should ignore these "patents" just as we would ignore a "sale of Marina Beach".

BTW, just a thought: it may be useful to study if Torrens system is worth following in India :)