The mobile market will exceed the computer market in coming years or has already exceeded the computer and related gadgets market. Nokia and other manufacturers routinely make softwares for their hardware products for the windows and macintosh operating systems.
Unless we, the FOSS users request them every now and then thru email, feedback on their websites, online forums etc etc to also support these softwares on the linux platform, Linux will get increasingly sidelined and less people will even come to know about it.
Getting linux on the printed packaging of a product (visibility) is very important for awareness generation. 95% of the battle of getting linux popular will be won if it becomes visible to the layman.
I request FOSS users to constantly strive to make linux visible to laymen thru whatever creative ideas they have, every now and then, specially thru requests to manufacturers etc and online forums.
Regards, Kussh
i even offered that i want to buy linux loaded laptop, but all ie hp, dell, acer, said no they dont sell it. even chroma, vijay sales, etc dont have a single linux laptop.available for sale.
rajesh ruparel
Must try OPEN OFFICE software better than ms office and free. go to www.openoffice.org
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?q=affiliates&id=142008&t=1">Get Firefox!</a>
--- On Fri, 11/27/09, Kussh Singh kussh.singh@gmail.com wrote:
From: Kussh Singh kussh.singh@gmail.com Subject: [ILUG-BOM] Making linux well supported among vendors/manufacturers To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in, iitdlug@googlegroups.com Date: Friday, November 27, 2009, 9:47 AM The mobile market will exceed the computer market in coming years or has already exceeded the computer and related gadgets market. Nokia and other manufacturers routinely make softwares for their hardware products for the windows and macintosh operating systems.
Unless we, the FOSS users request them every now and then thru email, feedback on their websites, online forums etc etc to also support these softwares on the linux platform, Linux will get increasingly sidelined and less people will even come to know about it.
Getting linux on the printed packaging of a product (visibility) is very important for awareness generation. 95% of the battle of getting linux popular will be won if it becomes visible to the layman.
I request FOSS users to constantly strive to make linux visible to laymen thru whatever creative ideas they have, every now and then, specially thru requests to manufacturers etc and online forums.
Regards, Kussh -- http://mm.glug-bom.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 9:15 AM, rajesh ruparel rajeshruparel@yahoo.com wrote:
i even offered that i want to buy linux loaded laptop, but all ie hp, dell, acer, said no they dont sell it. even chroma, vijay sales, etc dont have a single linux laptop.available for sale.
rajesh ruparel
I did find some netbooks with Ubuntu (Dell IIRC)....
Regards, Mohan S N
I had seen a link on some forum some time back where it told that Microsoft pays these cos a part of sales revenue to provide it by default. I bought a 8 Gig pen drive of a certain korean company and it still had the logo & tag "Works with Vista". There should be RTI's in Consumer Court or some thing to make this happen...
On Friday 27 Nov 2009, rajesh ruparel wrote:
i even offered that i want to buy linux loaded laptop, but all ie hp, dell, acer, said no they dont sell it. even chroma, vijay sales, etc dont have a single linux laptop.available for sale.
Aspire 5542 comes with Linpux Linux preloaded and is about Rs. 3500 less than it's cousin with Win7. You can remove and install any one of the distros released recently.
I have talked with a few Dell marketing guys and they claim that their Vostro line comes with Ubuntu pre-installed.
Contact me offlist if you are interested.
On Fri, 2009-11-27 at 06:15 -0800, rajesh ruparel wrote:
i even offered that i want to buy linux loaded laptop, but all ie hp, dell, acer, said no they dont sell it. even chroma, vijay sales, etc dont have a single linux laptop.available for sale.
Ideas and Options at lamington Road will give you a free doss laptop and on your request will also install linux for you.
Must try OPEN OFFICE software better than ms office and free. go to www.openoffice.org
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?q=affiliates&id=142008&t=1">Get Firefox!</a>
--- On Fri, 11/27/09, Kussh Singh kussh.singh@gmail.com wrote:
From: Kussh Singh kussh.singh@gmail.com Subject: [ILUG-BOM] Making linux well supported among vendors/manufacturers To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in, iitdlug@googlegroups.com Date: Friday, November 27, 2009, 9:47 AM The mobile market will exceed the computer market in coming years or has already exceeded the computer and related gadgets market. Nokia and other manufacturers routinely make softwares for their hardware products for the windows and macintosh operating systems.
Hackers are doing their job and whether the vendors want or don't want there are drivers or softwares available for gnu/linux. I remember some service station people of asus telling me "we *don't* support linux and linux will not work on our motherboards ". but the funny part is (thanks to roni) the best motherboard I ever got to work with ubuntu in particular was the asus 945.
I have got similar stories about other hardware modules but the reality is that hardware venders need to be first oriented and then counter brainwashed to remove the dirt microsoft has put into their brains (and some leagul or otherwise money as well in their pockets ).
Unless we, the FOSS users request them every now and then thru email, feedback on their websites, online forums etc etc to also support these softwares on the linux platform, Linux will get increasingly sidelined and less people will even come to know about it.
Blogging and reporting on web site is generaly looked upon by hardware developers and venders as nothing more than dog barking (well, with some exceptions of course ). We need more media support and massive public campaign so that the pressure comes on the venders from the consumers themselves.
Getting linux on the printed packaging of a product (visibility) is very important for awareness generation. 95% of the battle of getting linux popular will be won if it becomes visible to the layman.
Very true. rather than any one, the common man is easy to convince,because common man sees her/ his own bennifit first. we often hear things like "bla bla is more popular " but then how many of us use only those things which are "popular "? how many of us would drink wiski or wodka just because it is a popular practice? There is really no point going after hardware venders (unless you really can show them or even more, give them some linux based business ).
I request FOSS users to constantly strive to make linux visible to laymen thru whatever creative ideas they have, every now and then, specially thru requests to manufacturers etc and online forums.
As I said "I am a hardware seller or dealer, give me business and I will start telling linux linux linux like a parrot ". I convinced a couple of hardware venders to recommend linux and to be prepared to give such machines to their custommers only by first giving them some clients who actually demanded the installation of the free OS instead of the wellknown (Where I Never Do Operations With Safety ) my fullform for a virus called windows.
This is the bitter truth of the hardware market and naturally so.
Happy hacking. Krishnakant.
What I wanted to say was
WE HAVE TO GET CREATIVE IN MAKING LINUX VISIBLE
specially for mobiles and hi-end gadgets where the maximum profit is present. MONEY TALKS --rich customers drive the market. A vendor will change his tune once they realise that the richer customer prefers LINUX over other alternatives.
One of the things we can do besides writing to vendors directly is we can complain on consumercomplaints.in /mouthshut.com etc etc and other such websites where complaints stay for a long time and are visible for a long time. This could be the negative aspect of the campaign
The other way could be Awareness and visibility in mass contact programs at university/college/school/group/ corporates meetings. This could be the positive aspect of the campaign.
Most times majority of the people don't even know that something like linux exists and they can be rid of the virus like problems for ever.
Regards, Kussh
On Saturday 28 Nov 2009 9:27:38 am Kussh Singh wrote:
WE HAVE TO GET CREATIVE IN MAKING LINUX VISIBLE
please do not shout - we can all hear you
I'd been pitched for Linux based Motorola phones last year by The Mobile Store fellows as virus free and all. Afraid the model was low-end with real linux advantage.
I have not been able to find any good Linux based PDAs and the ones that i do find hav gone out of production. Whereever u go, the store guys will pitch for Windows Mobile only. Symbian or Android phones have entered in a big way, but not in India yet. Awareness is definitely lacking but so also the enthu from retailers. I mean if i m selling a product as a retailer, i would like to see what i get from a product (when selling a milk pack i get a rupee from it, windows out of 4k i might get 100 bucks) but not with linux. So retailers are not interested here unless they are linux guys themselves.
On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 10:24 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.orgwrote:
On Saturday 28 Nov 2009 9:27:38 am Kussh Singh wrote:
WE HAVE TO GET CREATIVE IN MAKING LINUX VISIBLE
please do not shout - we can all hear you
Was not shouting though have written in caps to emphasize a point. Email etiquette says if the whole mail is written in CAPS then it would be shouting.
Pls do not be offended and move away from the topic.
Regards, Kussh
On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Sanket Shah 88.sanket@gmail.com wrote:
I have not been able to find any good Linux based PDAs and the ones that i do find hav gone out of production. Whereever u go, the store guys will pitch for Windows Mobile only. Symbian or Android phones have entered in a big way, but not in India yet.
I had nokia n70 and now n86 --both seem to be symbian based. gammu/wammu/gmobilemedia/kmobiletools/xgnokii etc don't work on them yet. Have another model nokia 2760--i don't know the OS for this. Winmobile is more prevalent now because of sustained and aggressive marketing by microsoft and also the good commission a retailer gets. Also winmobile has targeted the hi-end phones--meaning richer custiomers and higher profits. Profits means the winmobile team can become selfsustaining after sometime and therefore allow the OS to become a market leader.
I think we can not EVER match the commission incentive in terms of the seller--so a way has to be found to induce the buyer by making them better informed.
Right now linux mobile software technology is lacking in features and has to play catchup with the propreitary softwares. So though ubuntu is maturing or has matured for the average computer user, linux support is still way off for the mobile market. This needs to change.
Also there is much less virus problem in the field of mobiles as compared to computers. so pitching for a linux OS phone cannot use this point against other OS based phones.
Linux can become reasonably popular ONLY if it is visible in the general market --on standard packaging or keeps popping up in the constant bombardment of info. One of the best ways is if somehow some linux logo is visible in the background of any major news tv channel/studio or is part of the tv channels logo/time fillers/ads.
or if somebdoy is able to make a few great and catchy tunes/ringtones/music and that tune takes off.
Problem is brainstorming is needed and then action.
Just a few thoughts Kussh
On Saturday 28 Nov 2009 11:38:51 am Kussh Singh wrote:
I think we can not EVER
nobody ever solved a problem by shouting
May be cloud has the answer. I mean we don't need software or hardware compatibility when we sync our devices through internet. I believe cloud is the future as people with these high end devices are learning about effective use of the cloud. When we start getting high-speed internet in India for masses, and on all our devices
Success of FOSS is inevitable, because what people will want is 10 sec boot --> Use the internet --> 5 sec shutdown
Just a thought, and a seed for attraction. ;-)
Revant
On Saturday 28 Nov 2009 11:59:54 am (रेवंत) Revant Nandgaonkar wrote:
May be cloud has the answer.
what about privacy?
On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.orgwrote:
what about privacy?
not just privacy, but also the control. Programs will be written and controlled by companies.
With the separation of devices Gaming, Internet, Productivity, Office, Server, Desktop, etc. it has opened a wide market for software.
Stream of free/open source software from the mountains is pure source code. based on this Organizations can create brands and communities
Only brands can be promoted and are active competitors in market. Brands go through QA and cater specific markets. We can't demand from the brand "Mozilla firefox" to act as a CD/DVD mastering software. We can't demand from the brand "Ubuntu desktop" to act as a Smartphone OS
But interested developers can use XULRunner to create a software to master CDROM and Linux kernel can be modified for smartphones. But to promote this new development they will have to create new brands separating them from FOSS in mind of layman
Branded smartphone OSs : http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/08/21/canalys_iphone_outsold_all_win...
Global Smartphone market by Operating system.
OS Market Code Base/License
Symbian 50.3% Moving to Open source RIM Blackberry 20.9% Closed source Apple iPhone 13.7% Closed (with open components) MS Windows Mobile 9.0% Closed Google Android 2.8% Free and open source software Other (Palm, Linux) 3.3% Closed source for Palm
Promising technologies and brands are already moving their source model to Open source
On one hand I stick to the brand that Canonical has created -- Ubuntu. On the other hand I extend my ubuntu usage by installing anything from free world
I don't want free world to be branded. It keeps my computer safe from stupid people.
Arun Khan wrote:
On Friday 27 Nov 2009, rajesh ruparel wrote:
i even offered that i want to buy linux loaded laptop, but all ie hp, dell, acer, said no they dont sell it. even chroma, vijay sales, etc dont have a single linux laptop.available for sale.
Aspire 5542 comes with Linpux Linux preloaded and is about Rs. 3500 less than it's cousin with Win7. You can remove and install any one of the distros released recently.
I have talked with a few Dell marketing guys and they claim that their Vostro line comes with Ubuntu pre-installed.
Contact me offlist if you are interested.
Off late, Acer laptops do not detect the LAN card directly in Linux and the driver has to be manually loaded. This is quite a pain as it has to be downloaded on another pc and transferred manually before running the compile process.
On Sat, 2009-11-28 at 16:22 +0530, Rony wrote:
Arun Khan wrote:
On Friday 27 Nov 2009, rajesh ruparel wrote:
i even offered that i want to buy linux loaded laptop, but all ie hp, dell, acer, said no they dont sell it. even chroma, vijay sales, etc dont have a single linux laptop.available for sale.
Aspire 5542 comes with Linpux Linux preloaded and is about Rs. 3500 less than it's cousin with Win7. You can remove and install any one of the distros released recently.
I have talked with a few Dell marketing guys and they claim that their Vostro line comes with Ubuntu pre-installed.
Contact me offlist if you are interested.
Off late, Acer laptops do not detect the LAN card directly in Linux and the driver has to be manually loaded. This is quite a pain as it has to be downloaded on another pc and transferred manually before running the compile process.
-- Regards,
Rony.
Ubuntu 9.04 installed on the said laptop model did not give problem for one of my colligues but he too claimed that this problem existed till ubuntu 8.10 and fc 10.
Happy hacking. Krishnakant.
Krishnakant wrote:
On Sat, 2009-11-28 at 16:22 +0530, Rony wrote:
Arun Khan wrote:
On Friday 27 Nov 2009, rajesh ruparel wrote:
i even offered that i want to buy linux loaded laptop, but all ie hp, dell, acer, said no they dont sell it. even chroma, vijay sales, etc dont have a single linux laptop.available for sale.
Aspire 5542 comes with Linpux Linux preloaded and is about Rs. 3500 less than it's cousin with Win7. You can remove and install any one of the distros released recently.
I have talked with a few Dell marketing guys and they claim that their Vostro line comes with Ubuntu pre-installed.
Contact me offlist if you are interested.
Off late, Acer laptops do not detect the LAN card directly in Linux and the driver has to be manually loaded. This is quite a pain as it has to be downloaded on another pc and transferred manually before running the compile process.
-- Regards,
Rony.
Ubuntu 9.04 installed on the said laptop model did not give problem for one of my colligues but he too claimed that this problem existed till ubuntu 8.10 and fc 10.
I had used Ubuntu 9.04 on a new Acer Aspire One and Kubuntu 9.04 was used on a regular new Acer. Both did not detect the LAN. Surprisingly the wireless cards get detected.
On Saturday 28 Nov 2009, Rony wrote:
Arun Khan wrote:
On Friday 27 Nov 2009, rajesh ruparel wrote:
i even offered that i want to buy linux loaded laptop, but all ie hp, dell, acer, said no they dont sell it. even chroma, vijay sales, etc dont have a single linux laptop.available for sale.
Aspire 5542 comes with Linpux Linux preloaded and is about Rs. 3500 less than it's cousin with Win7. You can remove and install any one of the distros released recently.
I have talked with a few Dell marketing guys and they claim that their Vostro line comes with Ubuntu pre-installed.
Contact me offlist if you are interested.
Off late, Acer laptops do not detect the LAN card directly in Linux and the driver has to be manually loaded. This is quite a pain as it has to be downloaded on another pc and transferred manually before running the compile process.
NIC detection problem was also present with the Intel Atom mobos when they first came out.
Which acer model; which linux distro and version?
Re: 5542, I loaded openSUSE 11.2 (amd64) and to the best of my knowledge all devices are detected. Webcam, WiFi, LAN; AMD-V virtualization requires "modprobe kvm-amd" to load the modules and I can run guest KVM VMs!
The HDMI port is reported active but I have not tested it with a LCD panel yet.
Having problems with the ATI BLOB (85MB) video driver. Unable to set the pizzaz desktop effects in KDE 4.3; have not tried Gnome/compiz. For 2D, the Xorg driver work fine though.
Overall, I took a chance with this model and to much to my delight it is a winner in all departments.
Arun Khan wrote:
On
Off late, Acer laptops do not detect the LAN card directly in Linux and the driver has to be manually loaded. This is quite a pain as it has to be downloaded on another pc and transferred manually before running the compile process.
NIC detection problem was also present with the Intel Atom mobos when they first came out.
Which acer model; which linux distro and version?
D250, and 437x? The first one is the mini and the other one was a regular 14 inch.
Hello all,
I don't understand in which direction you all ppl are talking.
Linux gives all you want. For vendors, as krishnakant says.. he required business, MS gives that to him and that's why they go for it.
There are h/w vendor tell us that sorry, our high end servers will not support debian and GN/Linux, they are supported for RH, Suse. But we had tested that server run smoothly even with virtulization on Debian.
Vendors, don't know what linux has, and there are only 2-3 h/w guy supports linux .
We are supposed to give support for the rest of the thing. Guide people for buying dead machines and make them alive putting GNU/Linux, rather than talking with Vendors, bcos Manufacturers design is itself linux supported. Problem arise at very high level application which made for only high end server, one can get more details at that stage.
Required is putting GNU/Linux in each machine by you.
On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
Arun Khan wrote:
On
Off late, Acer laptops do not detect the LAN card directly in Linux and the driver has to be manually loaded. This is quite a pain as it has to be downloaded on another pc and transferred manually before running the compile process.
NIC detection problem was also present with the Intel Atom mobos when they first came out.
Which acer model; which linux distro and version?
D250, and 437x? The first one is the mini and the other one was a regular 14 inch.
-- Regards,
Rony.
GNU/Linux ! No Viruses No Spyware Only Freedom.
Ganesh(dragger) Be a FOSSERS,use GNU/Linux
On Sun, 2009-11-29 at 17:54 +0530, Ganesh Gajare wrote:
Hello all,
I don't understand in which direction you all ppl are talking.
Linux gives all you want. For vendors, as krishnakant says.. he required business, MS gives that to him and that's why they go for it.
And by the way, there are venders who are neutral to this and give what ever custommer demands. I knwo a few of them who won't favour any of them. But when I gave exclusive linux business to some venders and also showed them the way to earn a bit more marjin out of this, they give linux at least as a choice to custommers.
Ther are h/w vendor tell us that sorry, our high end servers will not support debian and GN/Linux, they are supported for RH, Suse. But we had tested that server run smoothly even with virtulization on Debian.
Hehe, as if debian is a different thing and RH and Suse another thing. This certainly means venders are themselves not aware of all this because they don't care to read any technology magazine, let alone bloggs or public forums, writing to which was recommended by some posters on this thread.
They only mean business. No wonder many venders have started to recommend Ubuntu (and not fedora ) to many customers.
Vendors, don't know what linux has, and there are only 2-3 h/w guy supports linux .
Point. Infact I am blogging about all this in a day or 2. I have talked with a few vendres who give linux as a choice to custommers and also talked with custommers who were had just seen a demo of Ubuntu and got their reactions on first time exposure.
We are supposed to give support for the rest of the thing. Guide people for buying dead machines and make them alive putting GNU/Linux, rather than talking with Vendors, bcos Manufacturers design is itself linux supported. Problem arise at very high level application which made for only high end server, one can get more details at that stage. Very true. and ironically, most so-called high end machines run free software. How many super computers really run windows? Required is putting GNU/Linux in each machine by you.
And at least making sure either as a voluntary contribution or otherwise to visit some venders and demonstrate them the free software based desktop and orienty them properly. One can do this if the person is a regular visiter to hardware shops for example.
Happy hacking. Krishnakant.
Ganesh Gajare wrote:
Hello all,
I don't understand in which direction you all ppl are talking.
Linux gives all you want.
Linux gives all you want but what about what the customer wants?
For vendors, as krishnakant says.. he required business, MS gives that to him and that's why they go for it.
There are h/w vendor tell us that sorry, our high end servers will not support debian and GN/Linux, they are supported for RH, Suse. But we had tested that server run smoothly even with virtulization on Debian.
I don't blame the vendor as he has his own limitations and will not risk himself into unknown territory. A vendor provides support for what he knows not what he does not know. Though this is not the reason to not learn more but at that point of time with the limitations of his knowledge, support will be limited to that. Another problem providing support is that after the customer has installed Linux on his computer and starts using it, he later brings up peripheral devices that may be sometimes be quite difficult to install or run optimally in Linux. It is not worth spending so much time and effort to install individual devices on different machines. It holds up all other work.
Vendors, don't know what linux has, and there are only 2-3 h/w guy supports linux .
We are supposed to give support for the rest of the thing. Guide people for buying dead machines and make them alive putting GNU/Linux, rather than talking with Vendors, bcos Manufacturers design is itself linux supported. Problem arise at very high level application which made for only high end server, one can get more details at that stage.
Hmm. You are only referring to the server segment. OK.
Krishnakant wrote:
On Sun, 2009-11-29 at 17:54 +0530, Ganesh Gajare wrote:
Ther are h/w vendor tell us that sorry, our high end servers will not support debian and GN/Linux, they are supported for RH, Suse. But we had tested that server run smoothly even with virtulization on Debian.
Hehe, as if debian is a different thing and RH and Suse another thing.
Even Ubuntu and Kubuntu behave differently. Since there is no common kernel for all distros and every distro has its own compiled kernel, behavior and functioning will differ. That is why we choose the distro that suits our requirement.
Rony wrote:
Krishnakant wrote:
On Sun, 2009-11-29 at 17:54 +0530, Ganesh Gajare wrote:
Ther are h/w vendor tell us that sorry, our high end servers will not support debian and GN/Linux, they are supported for RH, Suse. But we had tested that server run smoothly even with virtulization on Debian.
Hehe, as if debian is a different thing and RH and Suse another thing.
Even Ubuntu and Kubuntu behave differently. Since there is no common kernel for all distros and every distro has its own compiled kernel, behavior and functioning will differ. That is why we choose the distro that suits our requirement.
May I add that the desktop environment and supported modules and packages also make the difference not just kernel.
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 12:15 AM, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
Ganesh Gajare wrote:
Hello all,
I don't understand in which direction you all ppl are talking.
Linux gives all you want.
Linux gives all you want but what about what the customer wants?
For vendors, as krishnakant says.. he required business, MS gives that to him and that's why they go for it.
There are h/w vendor tell us that sorry, our high end servers will not support debian and GN/Linux, they are supported for RH, Suse. But we had tested that server run smoothly even with virtulization on Debian.
I don't blame the vendor as he has his own limitations and will not risk himself into unknown territory. A vendor provides support for what he knows not what he does not know. Though this is not the reason to not learn more but at that point of time with the limitations of his knowledge, support will be limited to that. Another problem providing support is that after the customer has installed Linux on his computer and starts using it, he later brings up peripheral devices that may be sometimes be quite difficult to install or run optimally in Linux. It is not worth spending so much time and effort to install individual devices on different machines. It holds up all other work.
How can you said this providing support is the problem. Because any ways if customer brings new peripheral, it requires few things like communication with the person who are providing support to him and little self initiative to do the job. As you said it's not worth to spend time to install individual app, in my terms unless you spend time u will not learn how to get the things done, probably today you take 1hr for one customer, tomorrow for another with ur trial and error, you will do the same work in 5min.
Necessary is how you want to do it.
Vendors, don't know what linux has, and there are only 2-3 h/w guy
supports
linux .
We are supposed to give support for the rest of the thing. Guide people
for
buying dead machines and make them alive putting GNU/Linux, rather than talking with Vendors, bcos Manufacturers design is itself linux supported. Problem arise at very high level application which made for only high end server, one can get more details at that stage.
Hmm. You are only referring to the server segment. OK
Not, like that, it may happened that some one buys very good config lappy and he want's to load Graphics Driver which may be linux don't have as default. But one can easily get Repo for the same or package for the same. There are many thing with server segment, but it's not for the local user.
-- Regards,
Rony.
GNU/Linux ! No Viruses No Spyware Only Freedom.
Guys, the average user doesnt even know firefox or others are alternatives to shitty Internet Explorer. How do u expect them to make their way through linux? If u use linux, U HAV TO SPEND TIME TO SUIT UR TASTE.
Linux needs a large investment initially in terms of setting up time, which unfortunately people don't have in the professional world, but they hav money. An avg MBA grad who gets laptops from college or buys one usually has abt 8-10 hrs at home daily at max (may be some weekends too). When do you think they will sit around for hrs and make their linux flavor set to their taste buds???
And, there is the notion, "Free OS?" "Better than Windows?" "Surely they are bluffing." "Linux is so complex." blah blah blah... People are so used to the idea of paying for software that they dun fathom the idea of linux. Very few actually pay here fr software proven by rampant piracy. They are so used to using cracked stuff and trial versions, that free software seems impossible...
What we need is more interest from the direct sellers point, help with install, more directly usable OSes instead of self service type OS. Agreed that work is being done here, but a lot remains to be done (Like if anything happens, i still hav to go to terminal, which not everybody can use with ease). Ideally we should target such colleges where laptops are distributed in bulk and preinstall them with Linux instead of Windows. I know in my college out LUG installed Linux at all the 300 computers in our labs using a network install. Professors were impressed by our effort and encouraged it... But putting it in laptops for MBA grads will put us in the mainstream and would hav a deeper impact in the professional world. And in a college, they always hav a incharge person who handles this laptops, maintenance etc. whu can be there to help out students with using linux.
2009/12/2 Sanket Shah 88.sanket@gmail.com:
Guys, the average user doesnt even know firefox or others are alternatives to shitty Internet Explorer. How do u expect them to make their way through linux?
Firefox is available for windows too. And a lot of average people use it.
Anurag
On Wednesday 02 Dec 2009 11:30:34 am Anurag wrote:
2009/12/2 Sanket Shah 88.sanket@gmail.com:
Guys, the average user doesnt even know firefox or others are alternatives to shitty Internet Explorer. How do u expect them to make their way through linux?
Firefox is available for windows too. And a lot of average people use it.
millions of them - and most of them know how to spell 'you'
Ganesh Gajare wrote:
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 12:15 AM, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
Ganesh Gajare wrote:
Hello all,
I don't understand in which direction you all ppl are talking.
Linux gives all you want.
Linux gives all you want but what about what the customer wants?
For vendors, as krishnakant says.. he required business, MS gives that to him and that's why they go for it.
There are h/w vendor tell us that sorry, our high end servers will not support debian and GN/Linux, they are supported for RH, Suse. But we had tested that server run smoothly even with virtulization on Debian.
I don't blame the vendor as he has his own limitations and will not risk himself into unknown territory. A vendor provides support for what he knows not what he does not know. Though this is not the reason to not learn more but at that point of time with the limitations of his knowledge, support will be limited to that. Another problem providing support is that after the customer has installed Linux on his computer and starts using it, he later brings up peripheral devices that may be sometimes be quite difficult to install or run optimally in Linux. It is not worth spending so much time and effort to install individual devices on different machines. It holds up all other work.
How can you said this providing support is the problem. Because any ways if customer brings new peripheral, it requires few things like communication with the person who are providing support to him and little self initiative to do the job. As you said it's not worth to spend time to install individual app, in my terms unless you spend time u will not learn how to get the things done, probably today you take 1hr for one customer, tomorrow for another with ur trial and error, you will do the same work in 5min.
The customer can spring up surprises without warning. If it takes one hour or more I don't mind and thats what I do but even after spending a full evening or many hours if it does not work its not worth coming again and again to to it.
Necessary is how you want to do it.
Necessary is whether it is worth doing it.
Vendors, don't know what linux has, and there are only 2-3 h/w guy
supports
linux .
We are supposed to give support for the rest of the thing. Guide people
for
buying dead machines and make them alive putting GNU/Linux, rather than talking with Vendors, bcos Manufacturers design is itself linux supported. Problem arise at very high level application which made for only high end server, one can get more details at that stage.
Hmm. You are only referring to the server segment. OK
Not, like that, it may happened that some one buys very good config lappy and he want's to load Graphics Driver which may be linux don't have as default. But one can easily get Repo for the same or package for the same. There are many thing with server segment, but it's not for the local user.
It should be made clear to the client that Linux is not the free replacement of Doze. They are separate environments and what works in Doze may not work or work the same in Linux and vice versa. Just like Doze and Mac. The client should be willing to let go some luxuries as well as learn new methods in order to gain the benefits of Linux.
Sanket Shah wrote:
Guys, the average user doesnt even know firefox or others are alternatives to shitty Internet Explorer. How do u expect them to make their way through linux? If u use linux, U HAV TO SPEND TIME TO SUIT UR TASTE.
Even after I install FOSS equivalents for them in Doze, many are still too lazy to figure out how to use them. Such people do not deserve FOSS.
Linux needs a large investment initially in terms of setting up time, which unfortunately people don't have in the professional world, but they hav money. An avg MBA grad who gets laptops from college or buys one usually has abt 8-10 hrs at home daily at max (may be some weekends too). When do you think they will sit around for hrs and make their linux flavor set to their taste buds???
And, there is the notion, "Free OS?" "Better than Windows?" "Surely they are bluffing." "Linux is so complex." blah blah blah... People are so used to the idea of paying for software that they dun fathom the idea of linux. Very few actually pay here fr software proven by rampant piracy. They are so used to using cracked stuff and trial versions, that free software seems impossible...
Support for Linux is needed from manufacturers as well as commercial software package makers for the industry. However this is still a distant dream. We still have software makers who make commercial packages for Airline Booking, Share Trading, etc for the agents, run only in the Administrator mode of doze. All this is software involves high value money transactions but the doze zombies don't even know how to make their software run in Limited User mode.
On Wednesday 02 Dec 2009 1:47:28 pm Rony wrote:
Support for Linux is needed from manufacturers as well as commercial software package makers for the industry. However this is still a distant dream. We still have software makers who make commercial packages for Airline Booking, Share Trading, etc for the agents, run only in the Administrator mode of doze. All this is software involves high value money transactions but the doze zombies don't even know how to make their software run in Limited User mode.
another interesting point is that DGS&D offers redhat linux as 'in lieu' product. But if you do not specify the operating system, you get vista. And no one will tell you this - they will say that vista is compulsory. It is not so - all manufacturers *have* to supply linux 'in lieu' if asked for. I once contacted Red Hat Chennai to find out of this is applicable to desktops also - the guy who answered the phone said 'I do not think so', after I screamed at him he put me onto a new person who said 'last year it was, this year the specs have not come out'. Anyway he promised to send me the specs. Never did it. The specs were out long ago - linux is there. This shows that marketing morons are not confined to doze companies.
A lot of ppl use firefox, but a lot more don't, that's my issue and i believe with linux as well. IE still hold 64% mkt share (though dropping quick) even with so many alternatives.
Many people use linux also that way (why bother getting more users at all?), if the attitude is that people don't deserve to use FOSS, then linux has lost right now.
2009/12/2 Anurag anurag@gnuer.org
2009/12/2 Sanket Shah 88.sanket@gmail.com:
Guys, the average user doesnt even know firefox or others are
alternatives
to shitty Internet Explorer. How do u expect them to make their way
through
linux?
Firefox is available for windows too. And a lot of average people use it.
Anurag
http://web.gnuer.org/
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Sanket Shah 88.sanket@gmail.com wrote:
Many people use linux also that way (why bother getting more users at all?), if the attitude is that people don't deserve to use FOSS, then linux has lost right now.
For you, market penetration maybe a big thing but it needn't be for everyone. For others, they would be looking at other factors. So, I don't agree to your statement that linux has lost because it does not have a huge user base.
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
<snip>
another interesting point is that DGS&D offers redhat linux as 'in lieu' product. But if you do not specify the operating system, you get vista. And no one will tell you this - they will say that vista is compulsory. It is not so
- all manufacturers *have* to supply linux 'in lieu' if asked for.<snip>
DGS&D: Directorate General of Supplies and Disposal?? Please use acronyms which everyone knows.
-- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Senior Project Officer NRC-FOSS http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ -- http://mm.glug-bom.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
Sanket Shah wrote:
Many people use linux also that way (why bother getting more users at all?), if the attitude is that people don't deserve to use FOSS, then linux has lost right now.
FOSS usage requires some initiative from the user side too. If the user cannot make even small efforts after giving everything ready made he does not deserve it.
That is why i wrote to create awareness, and make 'brand pull' rather than pushing customers towards linux, and hence i talked about choices with browsers that people arent aware of. Same goes with OS, as pointed out that there is a ruling to provide linux if nothing is given, but nobody follows coz its not known to people that there is something like that.
2009/12/3 Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com
FOSS usage requires some initiative from the user side too. If the user cannot make even small efforts after giving everything ready made he does not deserve it.
-- Regards,
Rony.
GNU/Linux ! No Viruses No Spyware Only Freedom.
On Wed, 2009-12-02 at 22:34 +0530, Mehul Ved wrote:
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Sanket Shah 88.sanket@gmail.com wrote:
Many people use linux also that way (why bother getting more users at all?), if the attitude is that people don't deserve to use FOSS, then linux has lost right now.
For you, market penetration maybe a big thing but it needn't be for everyone. For others, they would be looking at other factors. So, I don't agree to your statement that linux has lost because it does not have a huge user base.
Exactly. And b the way linux indeed has a big although not a huge userbase *right now*. I must tell you that many venders whom I surveyed are recommending linux to their customers mainly due to the fact that softwares like forefox, vlc and open office come along the Os and that the OS itself, given all the convenience is totally virus free. out of these about 25% of the dealers were recommending linux (ubuntu) as the first choice. Many custommers according to them liked the idea and actually went for linux. And as I said in one of my previous emails, if we start approaching linux as a "package that dealers can give ", then there is no problem marketing it. I have done this successfully (not to pention I keep good contacts like roni and many other foss experts give add-hock help ).
And the reason why linux does not "seem to " grow in popularity is that people using it don't really report or advertise about its use. I very often meet people from organisations who surprise me by telling me that they are used to using linux in their organisations and are not really willing to switch over to windows.
But there is no such advertise from these users.
Happy hacking. Krishnakant.
On Wed, 2009-12-02 at 11:34 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Wednesday 02 Dec 2009 11:30:34 am Anurag wrote:
2009/12/2 Sanket Shah 88.sanket@gmail.com:
Guys, the average user doesnt even know firefox or others are alternatives to shitty Internet Explorer. How do u expect them to make their way through linux?
Firefox is available for windows too. And a lot of average people use it.
millions of them - and most of them know how to spell 'you'
By the way millions is a slightly an under statement because many of them don't seem to use firefox because they work in offices where IE is forced upon them and they would still use ff where it is possible for example on their home computers or office computers where they don't do I know of hundreds of people who don't even know what is FOSS (sad) but still use firefox and vlc just because they are better quality softwares. Besides, openoffice is rappidly growing in popularity as well.
happy hacking. Krishnakant.
On Wed, 2009-12-02 at 10:34 +0530, Sanket Shah wrote:
Guys, the average user doesnt even know firefox or others are alternatives to shitty Internet Explorer. How do u expect them to make their way through linux? If u use linux, U HAV TO SPEND TIME TO SUIT UR TASTE.
It is the other way round. linux works exactly as I want not as some handful of stupid developres sitting in redman street office, who can't even settle the virus problems even after 30 odd years of a solution being available in linux.
Linux needs a large investment initially in terms of setting up time, which unfortunately people don't have in the professional world, but they hav money. An avg MBA grad who gets laptops from college or buys one usually has abt 8-10 hrs at home daily at max (may be some weekends too). When do you think they will sit around for hrs and make their linux flavor set to their taste buds???
Rubbish! I train people in just a few hours in a single day for using linux. What are you talking about? I think you are refering to command line not GUI. Office for average users work the way they are used to work, vlc, firefox absolutely perfect. all other things are perfect too. I know many trainners, dealers and self lerned people who would migrate you successfully to linux in a day. all that is different is the file system and the menus to a certain extent. installation, well it is much easier for people who do setups on other OS and for those who don't do an installation themselves, it is no question in the first place.
And, there is the notion, "Free OS?" "Better than Windows?" "Surely they are bluffing." "Linux is so complex." blah blah blah... People are so used to the idea of paying for software that they dun fathom the idea of linux. Very few actually pay here fr software proven by rampant piracy. They are so used to using cracked stuff and trial versions, that free software seems impossible... Is it others notion or your notion. If I say windows is complex, how will it sound to you?
I really find windows extremly complex and confusing. And I know many others coming from windows to linux who had the same feeling. It is the mindset of "microsoft = god for IT " by some people who just want to bring fassion in IT industry. I feel windows is nothing more than a fassion of saying "I use some thing which is popular". Saying that linux is complex is a rotton sterio type comment.
Happy hacking. Krishnakant.
On Wed, 2009-12-02 at 10:34 +0530, Sanket Shah wrote:
And, there is the notion, "Free OS?" "Better than Windows?" "Surely they are bluffing." "Linux is so complex." blah blah blah... People are so used to the idea of paying for software that they dun fathom the idea of linux. Very few actually pay here fr software proven by rampant piracy. They are so used to using cracked stuff and trial versions, that free software seems impossible...
If it was a bluff then why are large organisations using linux? I think they don't care to be in the compedition right? And if foss wasn't better then ff and vlc should have not been so popular. The majority people use foss in some direct or indirect way, but many of us don't care to tell them that this is foss and you must take some minits some day to contribute at least a comment or a suggestion to the developers. And I think you neednot be a hacker or an IT guru to send an email about your impressions on the software in question.
What we need is more interest from the direct sellers point, help with install, more directly usable OSes instead of self service type OS. Agreed that work is being done here, but a lot remains to be done (Like if anything happens, i still hav to go to terminal, which not everybody can use with ease). Ideally we should target such colleges where laptops are distributed in bulk and preinstall them with Linux instead of Windows. I know in my college out LUG installed Linux at all the 300 computers in our labs using a network install. Professors were impressed by our effort and encouraged it... But putting it in laptops for MBA grads will put us in the mainstream and would hav a deeper impact in the professional world. And in a college, they always hav a incharge person who handles this laptops, maintenance etc.
We already have this experiment successfully working in SNDT womens college and the only thing we had to do is after shifting the labs (about 200 + computers ) to Ubuntu, we did an orientation with students and also with the service providers. And they did not find the OS complex. It is just that they were not aware.
Happy hacking. Krishnakant.
Ok, these statements are not my notion to clarify, these notions are there in people believe or not... just shows lack of knowledge that its available.
Organizations are using linux but many more are not... And u cant know anything w/o trying it out, people say its complex coz they havent used it, i'm not saying it is complex (personally i find windows more complex), just there in people's mind...
Some market stats (I'm really discussing these right now and not which is better)
And about firefox: it just hit 25% mkt share (great news!!!) Safari and chrome also posted big gains, IE down to 64% (Still way high!!!)
*Usage share of operating systems*. (Oct 2009) Windows XPhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP(67.55%) Windows Vista http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Vista (22.23%) Mac OS X http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X (4.71%) Linuxhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux(0.96%) (I belong here!!) Windows 2000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_2000 (0.60%) Other http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other (1.25%) Servers: Microsoft Windows http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Windows Linuxhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux BSD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD Solarishttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solaris_%28operating_system%29 Unknown 41.29% 38.48% 4.11% 2.57% 9.67% Supercomputers hav 99% running on Linux/BSD and other such custom made OS. Netbooks hav abt 30% Linux market share.
2009/12/3 Krishnakant hackingkk@gmail.com
On Wed, 2009-12-02 at 10:34 +0530, Sanket Shah wrote:
And, there is the notion, "Free OS?" "Better than Windows?" "Surely they
are
bluffing." "Linux is so complex." blah blah blah... People are so used to the idea of paying for software that they dun fathom the idea of linux.
Very
few actually pay here fr software proven by rampant piracy. They are so
used
to using cracked stuff and trial versions, that free software seems impossible...
If it was a bluff then why are large organisations using linux? I think they don't care to be in the compedition right? And if foss wasn't better then ff and vlc should have not been so popular. The majority people use foss in some direct or indirect way, but many of us don't care to tell them that this is foss and you must take some minits some day to contribute at least a comment or a suggestion to the developers. And I think you neednot be a hacker or an IT guru to send an email about your impressions on the software in question.
What we need is more interest from the direct sellers point, help with install, more directly usable OSes instead of self service type OS.
Agreed
that work is being done here, but a lot remains to be done (Like if
anything
happens, i still hav to go to terminal, which not everybody can use with ease). Ideally we should target such colleges where laptops are
distributed
in bulk and preinstall them with Linux instead of Windows. I know in my college out LUG installed Linux at all the 300 computers in our labs
using a
network install. Professors were impressed by our effort and encouraged it... But putting it in laptops for MBA grads will put us in the
mainstream
and would hav a deeper impact in the professional world. And in a
college,
they always hav a incharge person who handles this laptops, maintenance
etc.
We already have this experiment successfully working in SNDT womens college and the only thing we had to do is after shifting the labs (about 200 + computers ) to Ubuntu, we did an orientation with students and also with the service providers. And they did not find the OS complex. It is just that they were not aware.
Happy hacking. Krishnakant.
On Thu, 2009-12-03 at 13:06 +0530, Sanket Shah wrote:
Ok, these statements are not my notion to clarify, these notions are there in people believe or not... just shows lack of knowledge that its available.
Organizations are using linux but many more are not... And u cant know anything w/o trying it out, people say its complex coz they havent used it, i'm not saying it is complex (personally i find windows more complex), just there in people's mind...
Some market stats (I'm really discussing these right now and not which is better)
And about firefox: it just hit 25% mkt share (great news!!!) Safari and chrome also posted big gains, IE down to 64% (Still way high!!!)
Well, We can't be sure of market stats. For one thing they can be debaited (not to mention the common thing people did not start using windows in millions of numbers from the day it was released ). And even if we were to trust the market reports, there are many who don't really advertise their usage of linux. I know many such organisations. They either take 3rd party support who inturn don't care to report it to foss based resources, or they have in-house people who are good enough to support linux (the easy kind of OS it is). again such people don't come back to the community unless they get some problems. So we don't have the real stats. And if linux does not hold a user share of more than 1% then I wonder why majority of the internet runs using it?
The main thing we must understand here is what I said long back in my email and I say it again. There is a proper way of orienting people and I have seen great results having mass migrations happening. And I am not doing any great magic, nor it is any rocket science. I just use psychology. Any one interested to follow this can attend the workshops or in-house seminars I do with organisations willing to shift to foss. And yes there are organisations who themselves come willingly to me asking about ways to migrate to FOSS. This itself is the sign that the popularity of FOSS is growing rappidly.
Any ways the entire issue is to stay away from further kindling the fire of misconceptions which dirty marketing has resulted into.
Firstly I will suggest for those people who would love to *market* linux to be self convinced that we indeed can and should do it. saying things like "linux is for people who deserve it " does not do any good for making it popular.
Happy hacking. Krishnakant.
*** windows = Where I Never Do Operations With Safety ***
So I would finish it by saying this: Market runs on difference of opinions. [?][?] Pretty much proved by this discussion itself, fighting for the same cause but still different opinions...
2009/12/3 Krishnakant hackingkk@gmail.com
On Thu, 2009-12-03 at 13:06 +0530, Sanket Shah wrote:
Ok, these statements are not my notion to clarify, these notions are
there
in people believe or not... just shows lack of knowledge that its
available.
Organizations are using linux but many more are not... And u cant know anything w/o trying it out, people say its complex coz they havent used
it,
i'm not saying it is complex (personally i find windows more complex),
just
there in people's mind...
Some market stats (I'm really discussing these right now and not which is better)
And about firefox: it just hit 25% mkt share (great news!!!) Safari and chrome also posted big gains, IE down to 64% (Still way high!!!)
Well, We can't be sure of market stats. For one thing they can be debaited (not to mention the common thing people did not start using windows in millions of numbers from the day it was released ). And even if we were to trust the market reports, there are many who don't really advertise their usage of linux. I know many such organisations. They either take 3rd party support who inturn don't care to report it to foss based resources, or they have in-house people who are good enough to support linux (the easy kind of OS it is). again such people don't come back to the community unless they get some problems. So we don't have the real stats. And if linux does not hold a user share of more than 1% then I wonder why majority of the internet runs using it?
The main thing we must understand here is what I said long back in my email and I say it again. There is a proper way of orienting people and I have seen great results having mass migrations happening. And I am not doing any great magic, nor it is any rocket science. I just use psychology. Any one interested to follow this can attend the workshops or in-house seminars I do with organisations willing to shift to foss. And yes there are organisations who themselves come willingly to me asking about ways to migrate to FOSS. This itself is the sign that the popularity of FOSS is growing rappidly.
Any ways the entire issue is to stay away from further kindling the fire of misconceptions which dirty marketing has resulted into.
Firstly I will suggest for those people who would love to *market* linux to be self convinced that we indeed can and should do it. saying things like "linux is for people who deserve it " does not do any good for making it popular.
Happy hacking. Krishnakant.
*** windows = Where I Never Do Operations With Safety ***
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 7:12 PM, Sanket Shah 88.sanket@gmail.com wrote:
[?][?] Pretty much proved by this discussion itself, fighting for the same cause but still different opinions...
Freedom!
Some gurus always tell, but we never listen.
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
-
(रेवंत) Revant Nandgaonkar -
Anurag -
Arun Khan -
Easwar Hariharan -
Ganesh Gajare -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
Krishnakant -
Kussh Singh -
Mehul Ved -
Mohan Nayaka -
rajesh ruparel -
Rony -
Sanket Shah