Hi Geeks,
This is my first mail to the ILUG, but I do follow mails exchanged.
With due respect to all of the luggers who expressed their views on this thread, I would like to point out something from a newbies point of view.
1. Please understand that we are new to Linux. We want help from LInux gurus like you to help us. And there are many of us, feeling reluctant to ask questions, because we dont know if they will sound silly.
2. Please dont intimidate us with strict rules for sending a mail to LUG mailing list. Let us feel free to ask questions, even if it looks like trivial to geeks. We understand that your time is valuable. But we would like to request you to take some time out to sort out our issues. I understand it when you get irritated seeing a mail seeking job. But let us be happy that there are people out there looking for a job in Linux. We are growing. Let us not think that they are not upto our standards. They didnt get a chance to understand Linux earlier.
3. We will be sad if you start a new mailing list for linux gurus. We will feel left alone. I thought we want to make people aware of Linux and encourage them to use it. Not to create groups of geeks and newbies. Please dont discriminate. Try to help us solve our trivial issues.
4. I personally will agree to categories. Let us give it a try. There is no need to enforce it strictly.
The views expressed here doesn't implicate that any of the esteemed lugger thought low about the newbies.
-- Newbie
__________________________________________________________ Get Your Electric Email at http://webmail.electricmela.com
Hi all.
On Sun, Mar 30, 2003 at 01:08:16AM -0500, Dot Dot wrote:
- Please dont intimidate us with strict rules for sending a mail to LUG mailing list.
Let us feel free to ask questions, even if it looks like trivial to geeks. We understand that your time is valuable. But we would like to request you to take some time out to sort out our issues. I understand it when you get irritated seeing a mail seeking job. But let us be happy that there are people out there looking for a job in Linux. We are growing. Let us not think that they are not upto our standards. They didnt get a chance to understand Linux earlier.
Exactly. No one should be intimidated by strict rules. So, a simple rule could be to mail to specific mailing lists, where no one would really bother about certain criteria not being fulfilled ( top-posts, invalid subject ) but go ahead and reply, *and*, maybe, remind about etiquettes etc. So, if on a particular day, some of us are busy and don't want to read "general" mails, they can simply ignore mails on a particular mailing list, but read and reply to the 'more geeky' stuff.
- We will be sad if you start a new mailing list for linux gurus. We will feel left
alone. I thought we want to make people aware of Linux and encourage them to use it. Not to create groups of geeks and newbies. Please dont discriminate. Try to help us solve our trivial issues.
No one stops the 'newbies' from joining the 'geeky' list. But the 'geeks' have a choice, for one, to read only such mails (and of course, no one said that the 'geeks' should not be members of the 'general' mailing list). The 'newbies' can subscribe to the 'geekies' in a 'read-only' mode (self-imposed), and then start mailing once they are sure about the hows/whys/whats. The 'geekies' list can have stricter impositions for compliance (whatever).
My 2 paise.
On 30/03/03 01:08 -0500, Dot Dot wrote: <snip>
- Please understand that we are new to Linux. We want help from LInux
gurus like you to help us. And there are many of us, feeling reluctant to ask questions, because we dont know if they will sound silly.
We were all new once. The how to ask questions guide is at http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
- Please dont intimidate us with strict rules for sending a mail to LUG
mailing list. Let us feel free to ask questions, even if it looks like
Not all of us use GUI mail clients. Turning word wrap on is just a matter of netiquette. This mail is being composed in a 80 x 25 console. Asking offtopic questions is in bad form. Using HTML is bad form. Not searching google first is very bad form.
trivial to geeks. We understand that your time is valuable. But we would like to request you to take some time out to sort out our issues. I
We would just like to see people doing some research first, rather than turning to the LUG as an instant consultancy.
understand it when you get irritated seeing a mail seeking job. But let
The mailing list has a mail sent when you join detailing list policies and guidelines.
us be happy that there are people out there looking for a job in Linux.
Use of the wrong forum tends to decrease Signal to Noise Ratio, making the list less valuable for all of us.
We are growing. Let us not think that they are not upto our standards. They didnt get a chance to understand Linux earlier.
- We will be sad if you start a new mailing list for linux gurus. We
will feel left alone. I thought we want to make people aware of Linux and encourage them to use it. Not to create groups of geeks and newbies. Please dont discriminate. Try to help us solve our trivial issues.
Maybe trying to solve your own problems first is better. Please try to unerstand Linux culture: We did not start with handholding. Maybe a unix book or two, and the manuals (online). The Linux solution has usually been do it yourself. For the newbie, his/her question may be totally new, but for someone who has to answer the same questions repeatedly, it gets boring. There is a very good reason why the turnover in helpdesk jobs is so high. Learning to use the tools that you have is much better than being told what to do. The newbie here has much better resources at hand than what we did. It just that the newbies have to learn that the list is not for spoonfeeding them. We can but show them the path. Walking the path is something they have to do for themselves. (with apologies to Morpheus).
<snip>
The views expressed here doesn't implicate that any of the esteemed lugger thought low about the newbies.
Ummm, that flame was on the SNR of the list, not on newbies in general. Being rude tends to get flames in response.
Devdas Bhagat
On Sun, Mar 30, 2003 at 01:02:52PM +0530, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
trivial to geeks. We understand that your time is valuable. But we would like to request you to take some time out to sort out our issues. I
We would just like to see people doing some research first, rather than turning to the LUG as an instant consultancy.
Thats what the list is for ... sorting out each other's word. But mark Devdas's words - do your research first. Documents such as HOWTO's, manpages, guides etc were created exactly to help newbies to cope with common things that everyone is tired of answering. Show some effort on your side to learn; everyone is here to help each other.
Sameer.
On Sun, Mar 30, 2003 at 01:08:16AM -0500, Dot Dot wrote:
[snip]
- Please understand that we are new to Linux. We want help from LInux gurus like you to help us. And there are many of us, feeling reluctant to ask questions, because we dont know if they will sound silly.
Most of the people on this list would be glad to help if they can. But remember it can't be all one sided. If there is someone willing to help you, then you must be willing to put in some effort yourself. This effort includes digging the man pages, using google, etc.
- Please dont intimidate us with strict rules for sending a mail to LUG mailing list. Let us feel free to ask questions, even if it looks like trivial to geeks. We understand that your time is valuable. But we would like to request you to take some time out to sort out our issues. I understand it when you get irritated seeing a mail seeking job. But let us be happy that there are people out there looking for a job in Linux. We are growing. Let us not think that they are not upto our standards. They didnt get a chance to understand Linux earlier.
Regarding jobs: While it is heartening to see people seeking jobs in Linux, I don't think this is an appropriate place for such postings. There are literally millions of places on the internet where this information can be found. Otherwise, this list will just become like another variant of jobs.com.
- We will be sad if you start a new mailing list for linux gurus. We will feel left alone. I thought we want to make people aware of Linux and encourage them to use it. Not to create groups of geeks and newbies. Please dont discriminate. Try to help us solve our trivial issues.
Even in the categories, nobody will discriminate against people. It might very well be the case that a guru sometimes has a question which he feels that a newcomer to linux might know something about (like some feature of the latest Redhat distro). This is where the categories, I suspect, will come into play. It's for sorting questions, not people.
- I personally will agree to categories. Let us give it a try. There is no need to enforce it strictly.
The views expressed here doesn't implicate that any of the esteemed lugger thought low about the newbies.
-- Newbie
Also, watch your line legth. While some mail clients handle this well, other's are not quite up to the mark.
-- Bhargav Bhatt, Columbia University.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
On Sun, Mar 30, 2003 at 02:43:59AM -0500, Bhargav Bhatt wrote:
- Please dont intimidate us with strict rules for sending a mail
to LUG mailing list. Let us feel free to ask questions, even if it looks like trivial to geeks. We understand that your time is valuable. But we would like to request you to take some time out to sort out our issues. I understand it when you get irritated seeing a mail seeking job. But let us be happy that there are people out there looking for a job in Linux. We are growing. Let us not think that they are not upto our standards. They didnt get a chance to understand Linux earlier.
Regarding jobs: While it is heartening to see people seeking jobs in Linux, I don't think this is an appropriate place for such postings. There are literally millions of places on the internet where this information can be found. Otherwise, this list will just become like another variant of jobs.com.
IMHO, its okay _advertise_ for GNU/Linux related jobs on a list ... it is a GNU/Linux _user's_ group after all! But its a different matter when people send replies to the list instead of the original poster!
Sameer.
Hello All, There are many reasons people post job requirements on this mailing list. 1. Most of the people posting job opportunities are subscribers to this mailing list and feel 'connected' to this group. They also feel like giving preference (by passing on the information first) to fellow linuxers. 2. Most of the people listed in this group are volunteers, they have genuine interest in technology and have a craving for learning and sharing. Most organisations (at least the wise ones) recognise these skills as far more important than knowing current technology or being a BE from an premier institute. Institute ka chappa can only help you get better job and salary, but you sustain it only if you are good in it.
I feel that people who post job opportunities recognise, patronise and respect our efforts to learn, adapt, share and grow with everyone.
Three cheers for group Rahul Chaudhary Solution Architect - Banking Solutions Wipro, Bombay
-----Original Message----- From: linuxers-admin@mm.ilug-bom.org.in [mailto:linuxers-admin@mm.ilug-bom.org.in] On Behalf Of Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe Sent: 30 March 2003 16:49 To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] Re: list going to the dogs
On Sun, Mar 30, 2003 at 02:43:59AM -0500, Bhargav Bhatt wrote:
- Please dont intimidate us with strict rules for sending a mail
to LUG mailing list. Let us feel free to ask questions, even if it looks like trivial to geeks. We understand that your time is valuable. But we would like to request you to take some time out to sort out our issues. I understand it when you get irritated seeing a mail seeking job. But let us be happy that there are people out there looking for a job in Linux. We are growing. Let us not think that they are not upto our standards. They didnt get a chance to understand Linux earlier.
Regarding jobs: While it is heartening to see people seeking jobs in Linux, I don't think this is an appropriate place for such postings. There are literally millions of places on the internet where this information can be found. Otherwise, this list will just become like another variant of jobs.com.
IMHO, its okay _advertise_ for GNU/Linux related jobs on a list ... it is a GNU/Linux _user's_ group after all! But its a different matter when people send replies to the list instead of the original poster!
Sameer.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Rahul Chaudhary" jawanrc@SoftHome.net To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 10:56 AM Subject: RE: [ILUG-BOM] Re: list going to the dogs
Hello All, There are many reasons people post job requirements on this mailing list.
We dont have any problem with job postings. The problem is with people not bothering to put in "[Commercial]" on it so that others dont waste time reading it. Keeping in line with the basic list etiquetes and protocols is important.
Regards Saswata
can any one classify please who's a newbie or who's a geek for that matter? I always thought these terms were relative. How exactly do u qualify to be a geek? r there any exams to be given or any knockout bouts to select the geeks? do geeks know all and newbies know nothing? also is this mailing list owned by somebody? some people talk about banning other people, r those the owners? what gives some people the right to look down upon others?.so what is this, open source closed community? people mail their doubts and of the ten mails they might receive only 2 try to solve them. the remaining tell them to top or bottom post/laugh at their ignorance .
and if at all this list gets split i suggest a fifth category reserved for egotisms and plummage puffing
===== ninad purohit ninadonline(at)yahoo(dot)co(dot)in have a nice day :-)
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On Sun, Mar 30, 2003 at 06:08:28PM +0100, Ninad Purohit wrote:
can any one classify please who's a newbie or who's a geek for that matter? I always thought these terms were relative. How exactly do u qualify to be a geek? r there any exams to be given or any knockout bouts to select the geeks?
I am with you here. I don't think it's possible to classify people as newbies/geeks. In my opinion, question posers are best judges of their questions and it should be upto them to decide which category does their question fit in.
do geeks know all and newbies know nothing? also is this mailing list owned by somebody? some people talk about banning other people, r those the owners? what gives some people the right to look down upon others?
Everyone has a right to form their opinions about others and can voice these thoughts if they deem necessary. Besides, bandwidth isn't cheap. In my own case, I don't _CARE_ for the URL of Mr. X's resume or who his potential employer is. If I wanted to know more about people, I would not look for them on mailing list. I joined this list so that I can have my questions answered and get to know of other interesting questions/debates about the technical/ethical issues surrounding GNU/Linux. And if I see that my bandwidth is getting wasted in downloading emails that are utterly useless to me and the cause of the list, I think I have the full right to be angry about it.
.so what is this, open source closed community? people mail their doubts and of the ten mails they might receive only 2 try to solve them. the remaining tell them to top or bottom post/laugh at their ignorance .
This is a community of users that is very vocal about its beliefs. If you want to equate vocality with narror-mindedness then so be it.
===== ninad purohit ninadonline(at)yahoo(dot)co(dot)in have a nice day :-)
Ninad Purohit writes:
can any one classify please who's a newbie or who's a geek for that matter? I always thought these terms were relative. How exactly do u qualify to be a geek?
We, the g/luggers are planning to have a cross-country code race for would-be geeks. The race map will be posted to this list soon. Recommended exercises to prepare for "THE RACE" is looking around for answers in man/info/HOWTOS pages. If that doesn't help - googlize the web and using command --help. You should go through these exercises ten times every month. Deliberation are on within the GLUG to include these as eligibility criteria.
Other exercises which might help your preparation are learning to fix your line length, not using top posting, asking questions the smart way (after giving enough info about your efforts) and searching the archives of the list (to see if your answers are have already been answered).
Also chanting "I SHALL NOT VIOLATE THE MAILING LIST GUIDELINES" everyday may strengthen your resolve to win the race.
r there any exams to be given or any knockout bouts to select the geeks?
Good idea !!! We shall discuss about it in the next GLUG meeting. I hate some people on this list. I am looking forward to give them some black eyes and broken bones ;-)
do geeks know all and newbies know nothing?
Are you talking about the ML guidelines here? I might agree then on that classification :).
also is this mailing list owned by somebody?
Yeah. It is owned by all of us - the contributers and the subscribers. We should use it responsibly.
some people talk about banning other people, r those the owners?
Repeated offenders should be banned. After all of us are HUMANS and not Bots. We don't have infinite patience.
what gives some people the right to look down upon others?.so what is this, open source closed community?
You have the wrong impression, my friend. It was just irate people venting their frustration after repeated misuse of this mailing list. This is the free software open community :). Open source people are also welcome and so are others.
and if at all this list gets split i suggest a fifth category reserved for egotisms and plummage puffing
While splitting the list will do little good, education of newbies will definitely help.
I feel two suggestions posted during this discussion can be implemented by using a path of _least_resistance_
Parag Shah's suggestion to have classifying headers in the subject line (some people don't even have subject line). However what would be suitable headers can be discussed in the LUG meet.
Nikhil Karkera's suggestion to have an online test of the mailing list guidelines before members subscribe. (It seems funny, but at this point it seems the only logical way to make people read and "UNDERSTAND" the guidelines.)
:D ciao
Vinayak Hegde APGDST Student NCST-JUHU
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Bhargav Bhatt -
Devdas Bhagat -
Dot Dot -
Ninad Purohit -
Rahul Chaudhary -
Ravindra Jaju -
Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe -
Saswata Banerjee & Associates -
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