On Tuesday 27 December 2005 10:57, Rony Bill wrote:
JTD wrote:
Fax? I thought that was obsolete. In the 80s and early 90s I sent and recieved 20 to 30 a day. This has fallen to 2 in the whole of 2005. Scan and mail is a lot cheaper and far more accurate for the rare doc that is required as a facsimile of the original.
True. Fax messaging is getting rare but it is still very much in use. A lot of my clients now want fax software loaded in their pc so that they can avoid using a fax machine. Windows XP now comes with an inbuilt fax software that makes things easier. I am looking for something like that in linux for those who use external modems.
hylafax, gfax, tkhylafax, movifax. Hylafax was common and in use 4 yrs ago. U can easily build a mail to fax gateway-relay, saving your multilocation client several thousand on STD and even more on ISD. <Glorification on> btw i used to design fax machines and built several prototypes, including a fax relay network and a telex-fax gateway in the days when dialing several places in India (particularly Delhi, Gauhati) required a steady supply of spare index fingers.
rgds jtd
JTD wrote:
btw i used to design fax machines and built several prototypes, including a fax relay network and a telex-fax gateway in the days when dialing several places in India (particularly Delhi, Gauhati) required a steady supply of spare index fingers.
WOW! :) Did you design software fax machines like in the pc or actual fax machines like the ones available then? My collegues and I would be very thrilled to see your fax machines. We are (still) in the field of maintaining and selling fax machines since '92. Before that, I was a VCR service engg. for 4 years. During those days it was those older Ricoh, Minolta, Toshiba, Konica, Oki and other such brands that were being replaced by Canon and Panasonic brands.
I have mgetty-sendmail and efax but don't know how to set it up. The command line instructions are complicated. I googled too but too much coding. KdePrintfax is a gui version but it gives an error of allow or deny files not being present. The google info is not very clear on how to solve this problem. Is there any step by step instruction for any proper faxing software that I can follow? It should be a printer that prints on the remote location.
Regards,
Rony.
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On Tuesday 27 December 2005 19:01, Rony Bill wrote:
JTD wrote:
btw i used to design fax machines and built several prototypes, including a fax relay network and a telex-fax gateway in the days when dialing several places in India (particularly Delhi, Gauhati) required a steady supply of spare index fingers.
WOW! :) Did you design software fax machines like in the pc or actual fax machines like the ones available then?
Both. From scratch. Actually wrote tons of assembly for controlling the ccd, steppers and thermal head while compressing bitmaps to MR and converting to hdlc fax frames. Punit (my wife) and I could tell you what frame was sent by listening to the sound and in many cases the fax machine at the other end.
My collegues and I would be very thrilled to see your fax machines. We are (still) in the field of maintaining and selling fax machines since '92.
Will get the old stuff from the factory. I have two protos which combined fax and 286 pc into a fax form factor. The mobos have konked out tho. The feature set would give todays multifunction machines a kick in the pants - and that was in 93.
Before that, I was a VCR service engg. for 4 years. During those days it was those older Ricoh, Minolta, Toshiba, Konica, Oki and other such brands that were being replaced by Canon and Panasonic brands.
They have different compression methods when talking to their own brand machine to speed up xmission. Murata violated the G3 standards a lot.
I have mgetty-sendmail and efax but don't know how to set it up. The command line instructions are complicated. I googled too but too much coding. KdePrintfax is a gui version but it gives an error of allow or deny files not being present. The google info is not very clear on how to solve this problem. Is there any step by step instruction for any proper faxing software that I can follow? It should be a printer that prints on the remote location.
JTD wrote:
Both. From scratch. Actually wrote tons of assembly for controlling the ccd, steppers and thermal head while compressing bitmaps to MR and converting to hdlc fax frames. Punit (my wife) and I could tell you what frame was sent by listening to the sound and in many cases the fax machine at the other end.
Its just so amazing. :) Its like meeting the God of technology. Why didn't you create your own brand and mass produce it. We were busy selling foreign brands and here there was an Indian who made the Nation proud. I feel very sad that Indian talent is not reaching mass production.
Best Wishes,
Rony.
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On Tuesday 27 December 2005 21:16, Rony Bill wrote:
JTD wrote:
Both. From scratch. Actually wrote tons of assembly for controlling the ccd, steppers and thermal head while compressing bitmaps to MR and converting to hdlc fax frames. Punit (my wife) and I could tell you what frame was sent by listening to the sound and in many cases the fax machine at the other end.
Its just so amazing. :) Its like meeting the God of technology. Why didn't you create your own brand and mass produce it. We were busy selling foreign brands and here there was an Indian who made the Nation proud. I feel very sad that Indian talent is not reaching mass production.
The "fun" part was writing the hdlc stack (for fax) by reading ccitt manual in z80 assembly. The ridiculous part was that DOT guys had a rule (upto 1987 afair) which made connecting a fax machine a criminal offence - just like carrying a wireless non gsm cdma handset is today. The best tech is not necessarily the most successful. More often than not it is poor quality tech (which transalates to lower capital costs and easy to explain stupid features) which sells. In this case apart from these reasons, marketeers like L&T, Bharti etc got cold feet because it would result in canabalising their existing market lines and would require hardwork for creating new tendering norms. so why educate the customer if he is ready to pay big money buying crap. Also I myself saw fax technology as hitting a deadend in a few years - notice how color faxes are an expensive oddity and color scanners are 1/10 the price and x100 the performance of a color fax. Fax killed telex, the email killed fax, and wireless will kill GSM / CDMA and the phone companies.
Precisely these reasons hinder the widespread use of foss. The big difference is that foss is not a Company that has to think of cash infusion today to fund tomorrows market or worry about someone else's business going phut. All you have to do is focus on technology.
rgds jtd
Hi Terrence,
On Wed, 2005-12-28 at 10:49, JTD wrote:
Precisely these reasons hinder the widespread use of foss. The big difference is that foss is not a Company that has to think of cash infusion today to fund tomorrows market or worry about someone else's business going phut. All you have to do is focus on technology.
I don't agree with the above reasoning. If any technology, however superior, can not reach the people, I would consider it useless and worthless. Remember technology is for the benefit of mankind not the other way round. It is really sad that many people just talk of technology for technology's sack.
The idea behind FOSS is to make technology available and accessible FREELY to people. The attitude of some people in FOSS, technology for the technology's sack, is hurting the FOSS, apart from many other reasons.
rgds jtd
My 0.02 rupee :-) With regards,
On Wednesday 28 December 2005 13:29, Dinesh Shah wrote:
Hi Terrence,
On Wed, 2005-12-28 at 10:49, JTD wrote:
Precisely these reasons hinder the widespread use of foss. The big difference is that foss is not a Company that has to think of cash infusion today to fund tomorrows market or worry about someone else's business going phut. All you have to do is focus on technology.
I don't agree with the above reasoning. If any technology, however superior, can not reach the people, I would consider it useless and worthless.
Partly true or false - it depends what point in time u make the observation and what is your definition of "value and worthiness". So in the 1990s gnu and linux was actually "worthless" to most. And today your statement is less true or false - most products have to vend their way thru a host of middlemen before reaching the "people". So the product is worthless because middlemen like music companies (or theatre owners) cannot get their "value" out of a product. Every argument can spin both ways.
Remember technology is for the benefit of mankind not the other way round. It is really sad that many people just talk of technology for technology's sack.
like the MIT lab where personal computing started? Or some pokey place with two college kids making apples from ICs? or a few developers writing the next revolution?
The idea behind FOSS is to make technology available and accessible FREELY to people. The attitude of some people in FOSS, technology for the technology's sack, is hurting the FOSS, apart from many other reasons.
I think not. Since it is foss those feeling hurt can pick the code and fork it with pleasure - X.org, uclinux, rtlinux. As long as the technology is FOSS someone can always pick up broken threads and weave it into a useful blanket. It is when the only "value" that the market attaches to "products" is monetary that things get badly skewed. And i will quickly contradict myself by saying that monetary value is what business has to think about mostly - hence i decided not to pursue (as fax) the great tech that i created in the distant past. I however used all of the expertise in countless other projects, earned good money and more important had and continue to have lots of fun doing so.
In short as long as there is freedom all the contradictory forces will resolve them selves over time. Skew it with legislation like DRM or patent laws in the guise of helping the inventor and u get screwed.
Hi Terrence,
On Wed, 2005-12-28 at 15:02, JTD wrote:
I don't agree with the above reasoning. If any technology, however superior, can not reach the people, I would consider it useless and worthless.
Partly true or false - it depends what point in time u make the observation and what is your definition of "value and worthiness". So in the 1990s gnu and linux was actually "worthless" to most. And today your statement is less true or false - most products have to vend their way thru a host of middlemen before reaching the "people". So the product is worthless because middlemen like music companies (or theatre owners) cannot get their "value" out of a product. Every argument can spin both ways.
The point I am trying to make is to make available the technology to people in most efficient method available to you with prevailing market conditions.
That includes even using "Middle Man" for delivery and choosing the correct delivery model. In '70s and '80s WalMart was the right delivery vehicle. In '90s and new millenia it's Amazone and eBay. :-)
Remember technology is for the benefit of mankind not the other way round. It is really sad that many people just talk of technology for technology's sack.
like the MIT lab where personal computing started? Or some pokey place with two college kids making apples from ICs? or a few developers writing the next revolution?
Even though Apple was great technology, IBM PC and Microsoft took the market. Why? Because, despite many problems, people show value in buying PC over MAC.
People don't buy technology for the sack of technology, they buy the technology for the immediate and future benefit he will get out of his investment in technology.
The idea behind FOSS is to make technology available and accessible FREELY to people. The attitude of some people in FOSS, technology for the technology's sack, is hurting the FOSS, apart from many other reasons.
I think not. Since it is foss those feeling hurt can pick the code and fork it with pleasure - X.org, uclinux, rtlinux. As long as the technology is FOSS someone can always pick up broken threads and weave it into a useful blanket.
This is 100% correct. Also, success of FOSS will not be derived from FREEDOM alone. People has to see the "value" in the FREEDOM available to them in FOSS. More over FOSS has to solve the real life problems for large scale adoption. And the real problem solving is done by those "Middle Man" like RedHat, Novell/SuSE, Debian, IBM, Terrence etc... :-)
It is when the only "value" that the market attaches to "products" is monetary that things get badly skewed. And i will quickly contradict myself by saying that monetary value is what business has to think about mostly - hence i decided not to pursue (as fax) the great tech that i created in the distant past. I however used all of the expertise in countless other projects, earned good money and more important had and continue to have lots of fun doing so.
Well, by what other tangible means can you attach/access "value" to "products" and/or "services"?
Gandhi was able to show great "value" in Khadi and "Swadeshi". Can FOSS do the same?
In short as long as there is freedom all the contradictory forces will resolve them selves over time. Skew it with legislation like DRM or patent laws in the guise of helping the inventor and u get screwed.
Not really, people does not attach to much importance to freedom. See what is the status of Khadi and "Swadeshi" in India today?
-- rgds jtd
Remember, markets never exist. You have to create the markets. :-D Did you grand father ever knew/thought about Mobile Phones or PC or ...?
With regards,
On Wednesday 28 December 2005 16:19, Dinesh Shah wrote:
Even though Apple was great technology, IBM PC and Microsoft took the market. Why? Because, despite many problems, people show value in buying PC over MAC.
Apologize to poke my nose into this discussion but AFAICR, Amiga was a great technology. They were making color screens, video editing while Apple was struggling with monochrome video...
Amiga failed because of bad decisions, bad campaigning, bad advertisments. People are stupid. They think expensive means better while it wasn't so in Amigas case. Besides, Amiga was well ahead of its time. They were producing cheap, multimedia PCs which could multitask in an age where computers were big giants with black and while video outputs and monotasking machines...
JTD wrote:
The "fun" part was writing the hdlc stack (for fax) by reading ccitt manual in z80 assembly.
Those were really fun days. :) I used to assemble circuits from EFY and later designed some of my own too, like a bank token display, a temperature controller etc. I even designed my own pcbs and etched some at home using ferric chloride.
The ridiculous part was that DOT guys had a rule (upto 1987 afair) which made connecting a fax machine a criminal offence - just like carrying a wireless non gsm cdma handset is today.
Yes. I recollect, our customers had to apply to mtnl with details of their fax machine and the guys at the exchange would allow fax traffic from that number. Luckily all that stopped soon.
Also I myself saw fax technology as hitting a deadend in a few years
- notice how color faxes are an expensive oddity and color scanners
are 1/10 the price and x100 the performance of a color fax. Fax killed telex, the email killed fax, and wireless will kill GSM / CDMA and the phone companies.
Email was killing my fax business so I had to get into computers. "If you can't beat them, join them".
Precisely these reasons hinder the widespread use of foss. The big difference is that foss is not a Company that has to think of cash infusion today to fund tomorrows market or worry about someone else's business going phut. All you have to do is focus on technology.
Creating a successfull brand is necessary too. Thats where the West is leading the world whereas even though Indians are talented, we still aren't good at creating global brands. Even in open source software, the world looks towards the West. Even our popular linux distros and their bundled softwares are created in the West. How do we make the turn around? What can we do to create successfull Indian brands globally?
Regards,
Rony.
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On Wednesday 28 December 2005 21:46, DJ wrote:
On Wednesday 28 December 2005 16:19, Dinesh Shah wrote:
Even though Apple was great technology, IBM PC and Microsoft took the market. Why? Because, despite many problems, people show value in buying PC over MAC.
Apologize to poke my nose into this discussion but AFAICR,
This is a public list and is intended for people to poke their noses and air their opinions. You will have to apologise for not poking your nose ;-) ( ok the rest of u that was joke - dont send 700-3 apology mails).
Amiga was a great technology. They were making color screens, video editing while Apple was struggling with monochrome video... Amiga failed because of bad decisions, bad campaigning, bad advertisments.
Amiga did not fail it has morphed into the ARM one of the great successes in the small footprint 32 bit processors. More than those i think they were too early to market. One of the Amiga machines was faster running interpreted basic than the latest IBM PC running assembly in a Byte mag bench mark.
People are stupid.
Yea i suppose so - particularly when they dont buy your hot new product.
Hi,
Can anyone please let me know good dialup connection available in Virar/Vasai area? I have used vsnl/rolta, both are disappointing.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks Richard
On Wednesday 28 December 2005 16:19, Dinesh Shah wrote:
Hi Terrence,
On Wed, 2005-12-28 at 15:02, JTD wrote:
I don't agree with the above reasoning. If any technology, however superior, can not reach the people, I would consider it useless and worthless.
Partly true or false - it depends what point in time u make the observation and what is your definition of "value and worthiness".
The point I am trying to make is to make available the technology to people in most efficient method available to you with prevailing market conditions.
Business is about markets. Technology is about pushing the engineering and scientific frontier. Irrespective of it's use or misuse. Science and tech will reach (mass) use when several existing mechanisms relevant to business (and thoroughly irrelevant to sc & tech) learn to deliver those. It's not the scientist or technologist job to create value for business.
That includes even using "Middle Man" for delivery and choosing the correct delivery model. In '70s and '80s WalMart was the right delivery vehicle. In '90s and new millenia it's Amazone and eBay. :-)
I am not berating middle men (a very essential and important component in any society) but pointing out it's irrelevance to technology.
Remember technology is for the benefit of mankind not the other way round. It is really sad that many people just talk of technology for technology's sack.
like the MIT lab where personal computing started? Or some pokey place with two college kids making apples from ICs? or a few developers writing the next revolution?
Even though Apple was great technology, IBM PC and Microsoft took the market. Why? Because, despite many problems, people show value in buying PC over MAC.
So does that make the MAC useless. And M$ took market by innumerable illegal business practices and continue to do so, rather than any inherent value in it's product. Practices like forcing Hitachi to remove BeOS from any machine with windows. If anything M$ software continue to be far more useless than ever before. Of course one may continue to pull wool on customers, choosing to ignore everything else in return for money like the M$ peddlers do or one may choose to enlighten the customer and work hard to provide a lasting solution and make more money in the long run.
People don't buy technology for the sack of technology, they buy the technology for the immediate and future benefit he will get out of his investment in technology.
The idea behind FOSS is to make technology available and accessible FREELY to people. The attitude of some people in FOSS, technology for the technology's sack, is hurting the FOSS, apart from many other reasons.
I think not. Since it is foss those feeling hurt can pick the code and fork it with pleasure - X.org, uclinux, rtlinux. As long as the technology is FOSS someone can always pick up broken threads and weave it into a useful blanket.
This is 100% correct. Also, success of FOSS will not be derived from FREEDOM alone. People has to see the "value" in the FREEDOM available to them in FOSS. More over FOSS has to solve the real life problems for large scale adoption. And the real problem solving is done by those "Middle Man" like RedHat, Novell/SuSE, Debian, IBM, Terrence etc... :-)
Well, by what other tangible means can you attach/access "value" to "products" and/or "services"?
Customer satisfaction. Me having fun. Engineers feeling happy. Do these translate to monetory value? maybe but it is not going to reflect on my business in a very very long time.
Gandhi was able to show great "value" in Khadi and "Swadeshi". Can FOSS do the same?
In short as long as there is freedom all the contradictory forces will resolve them selves over time. Skew it with legislation like DRM or patent laws in the guise of helping the inventor and u get screwed.
Not really, people does not attach to much importance to freedom. See what is the status of Khadi and "Swadeshi" in India today?
That is precisely why it is of such great importance and essential that those who know this keep reminding others. All other values are really only beneficial side effects of this.
On Thursday 29 December 2005 00:33, Rony Bill wrote:
JTD wrote:
The ridiculous part was that DOT guys had a rule (upto 1987 afair) which made connecting a fax machine a criminal offence - just like carrying a wireless non gsm cdma handset is today.
Yes. I recollect, our customers had to apply to mtnl with details of their fax machine and the guys at the exchange would allow fax traffic from that number. Luckily all that stopped soon.
The "enabling" was actually disabling of metering pulses generated on the E-10B and NEC exchanges.
Also I myself saw fax technology as hitting a deadend in a few years - notice how color faxes are an expensive oddity and color scanners are 1/10 the price and x100 the performance of a color fax. Fax killed telex, the email killed fax, and wireless will kill GSM / CDMA and the phone companies.
Email was killing my fax business so I had to get into computers. "If you can't beat them, join them".
Preferably riding a fast bird in a sea full of sharxps.
Precisely these reasons hinder the widespread use of foss. The big difference is that foss is not a Company that has to think of cash infusion today to fund tomorrows market or worry about someone else's business going phut. All you have to do is focus on technology.
Creating a successfull brand is necessary too. Thats where the West is leading the world whereas even though Indians are talented, we still aren't good at creating global brands.
We simply did not have the financial and other infrastructure necessary to go global. Indian companies also did not have an incentive to go global given the fat margins and lack of competition in the local market.
Even in open source software, the world looks towards the West. Even our popular linux distros and their bundled softwares are created in the West.
That is if u are selling distros or relying on someone else (RH, Novell) to do the "selling" for installations on hardware u sell. Otherwise u can say whatever RH is saying and sell your own LFS.
How do we make the turn around? What can we do to create successfull Indian brands globally?
Read Kotler, Ries, and others, make a good product, advertise, sales promos, press release hope for the best. 10 yrs later u will know wether u have a good brand. If not jmp 0.
On 28/12/05 16:19 +0530, Dinesh Shah wrote:
Even though Apple was great technology, IBM PC and Microsoft took the market. Why? Because, despite many problems, people show value in buying PC over MAC.
The IBM PC became popular after Compaq reverse engineered the BIOS, and did a cleanroom implementation, allowing for IBM PC clones. And the PC won on the sheer basis of price.
Devdas Bhagat
On Thursday 29 December 2005 13:56, JTD wrote:
We simply did not have the financial and other infrastructure necessary to go global. Indian companies also did not have an incentive to go global given the fat margins and lack of competition in the local market.
Oh yeah. I remember Narayan Murty telling in an interview how difficult was it then for Indian companies to go global. Heck! He said it took them 2 years to get a telephone connection and around the same time to get computers imported into India! :|
On Thursday 29 December 2005 21:04, DJ wrote:
On Thursday 29 December 2005 13:56, JTD wrote:
We simply did not have the financial and other infrastructure necessary to go global. Indian companies also did not have an incentive to go global given the fat margins and lack of competition in the local market.
Oh yeah. I remember Narayan Murty telling in an interview how difficult was it then for Indian companies to go global. Heck! He said it took them 2 years to get a telephone connection and around the same time to get computers imported into India! :|
That is cause he's Narayan Murthy - well known even then - for stupid startups like us it was more like 6yrs. And power took a whole 2 yrs in a D zone backward area, MPCB -3 yrs, SSI registration 1 yr. Many of these were chicken and egg. And the subsidies promised by the govt never ever comes unless u are ready with a special lubricant made by RBI. In 1991 (afair) the DOT had rejected my application for manufacture of "Integra" since multifunction fax machines were not in their list of equipment permitted for manufacture. So u go to DOT ND and demo your product to a few sleepy officials, who will then ask you for connections before issuing a letter allowing your equipment to be tested for line compatiblity (u can damage their non functioning network u see). Then off to DGTD and DI then customs and .... all for obtaining manufacture, import and concessional rates of customs licences. If you managed to run this gauntlet and actually make something useful u would have to spend the profits on administering various ledgers to prove that crooked you did not sell the components in the market for a fat profit. In reality there were specialised fake manufacturers doing a good job of importing and selling the components and raw materials to small manufacturers who made stuff for the big manufacturers who did not pay, A vast network of corruption which produced what the market consumed - exorbitantly priced, shoddy beyond imagination, technological stoneage products. What a laugh. The "black" money generated between 1950 and 1990 would have been enough for us to overtake the USA two times over. Mind u one required to be a genius, incredibly machivalean and very very lucky just to stay afloat in business - u never knew what raid u would be the target of. Technology, quality, performance were minor footnotes not even worth glancing at in the scheme of things.
So for people who think that freedom is not important think a 100 times and be very happy u were not a player in those great days.
Hi Dinesh and Terrence,
On Fri, 2005-12-30 at 23:47, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
So for people who think that freedom is not important think a 100 times and be very happy u were not a player in those great days.
amen to that. And this country is gone to the dogs... :)
There is not point in cribbing and crying. Remember, Those who had succeed also had the same conditions that you are complaining of. In spite of all the odds they created a success.
If the country has gone to dogs, we are responsible for it and it's our job to get the country out of that shit. :-)
Note: Finally I have changed the subject of this mail. :-D
-- Dinesh A. Joshi
My Rs. 0.02 With regards,
On Friday 30 December 2005 08:39, JTD wrote:
That is cause he's Narayan Murthy - well known even then - for stupid startups like us it was more like 6yrs. And power took a whole 2 yrs in a D zone backward area, MPCB -3 yrs, SSI registration 1 yr. Many of these were chicken and egg. And the subsidies promised by the govt never ever comes unless u are ready with a special lubricant made by RBI. In 1991 (afair) the DOT had rejected my application for manufacture of "Integra" since multifunction fax machines were not in their list of equipment permitted for manufacture. So u go to DOT ND and demo your product to a few sleepy officials, who will then ask you for connections before issuing a letter allowing your equipment to be tested for line compatiblity (u can damage their non functioning network u see). Then off to DGTD and DI then customs and .... all for obtaining manufacture, import and concessional rates of customs licences. If you managed to run this gauntlet and actually make something useful u would have to spend the profits on administering various ledgers to prove that crooked you did not sell the components in the market for a fat profit. In reality there were specialised fake manufacturers doing a good job of importing and selling the components and raw materials to small manufacturers who made stuff for the big manufacturers who did not pay, A vast network of corruption which produced what the market consumed - exorbitantly priced, shoddy beyond imagination, technological stoneage products. What a laugh. The "black" money generated between 1950 and 1990 would have been enough for us to overtake the USA two times over. Mind u one required to be a genius, incredibly machivalean and very very lucky just to stay afloat in business - u never knew what raid u would be the target of. Technology, quality, performance were minor footnotes not even worth glancing at in the scheme of things.
So for people who think that freedom is not important think a 100 times and be very happy u were not a player in those great days.
amen to that. And this country is gone to the dogs... :)
Sometime on Dec 30, Dinesh Joshi assembled some asciibets to say:
Wow. you sound like Mohd. Azahruddin :P Why shy away from a topic? Everyone wants to turn a blind eye to the problems. Nobody wants to
The subject is irrelevant to what you're talking about. Change it.
On Sat, Dec 31, 2005 at 12:05:40AM +0530, Philip Tellis wrote:
Sometime on Dec 30, Dinesh Joshi assembled some asciibets to say:
Wow. you sound like Mohd. Azahruddin :P Why shy away from a topic? Everyone wants to turn a blind eye to the problems. Nobody wants to
The subject is irrelevant to what you're talking about. Change it.
Dinesh, he's talking about the subject _line_.
On Friday 30 December 2005 13:09, Dinesh Shah wrote:
There is not point in cribbing and crying. Remember, Those who had succeed also had the same conditions that you are complaining of. In spite of all the odds they created a success.
Yeah I suppose you are talking about TATAs, Birlas, Ambanis and such people. But there is a crucial difference between us and them. We are techies and they are hardcore businessmen who have written all the dirty underhanded tricks in the book! And this is no excuse to hide the fact that the country's rules, regulations, procedures, infrastructure need to be changed. Excuse me but even though we are moving into 2006 but our country's rules, regulations, procedures, infrastructure is still stuck in the "good" ol' British days.
Countless successful entrepreneurs have complained that procedures, licensing terms, rules and infrastructure _sucks_ in India. And what do we do? Nothing. We just want to transform Mumbai into Shanghai. Short attention span eh?
Hello? Wake up? China is the manufacturing hotspot and _not_ India.
How long will we keep hearing that - "They have risen from the same pile of shit. If you couldn't do it then stop cribbing about it!"
If the country has gone to dogs, we are responsible for it and it's our job to get the country out of that shit. :-)
Ok then, starting importing sniper rifles and lets begin hunting down each and every politician we can find. That'll get us 99.999999% out of this shit. I'll personally settle for the round off error ( 0.0000001% ).
Note: Finally I have changed the subject of this mail. :-D
Hurray! Now will we beat China?
Stop denying the fact that we need to overhaul _ALL_ procedures in this country. Not a _single_ procedure is freakin' straight forward.
We call this country secular but in almost _all_ forms we ask for the person's religion, cast, sub-caste? Gathering demographic data, are we?
We say everyones equal but we still have SC/ST, NT, OBC?? Why?
Women "empowerment" groups want 33% reservation for women. When has reservation made anybody stronger, more competent, more talented?
When was the last time someone was judged based on his / her talent in this country?
Let me answer it for you.
***_NEVER_***
Oh boi. We are in deep shit, aren't we? :|
We suck. India sucks.
Mera Bharat Mahan. Sau mein se 99 beimaan!
Patriotism anyone?
On Friday 30 December 2005 15:33, Philip Tellis wrote:
Boys, change the subject please!
Wow. you sound like Mohd. Azahruddin :P Why shy away from a topic? Everyone wants to turn a blind eye to the problems. Nobody wants to fix them.
So whos importing the AK47s? :|
On Saturday 31 Dec 2005 1:34 am, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Yeah I suppose you are talking about TATAs, Birlas, Ambanis and such people. But there is a crucial difference between us and them. We are techies and they are hardcore businessmen
billy baba, steve jobs, bhatia, narayannmurthy ... were all techs
On Saturday 31 December 2005 01:34, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Friday 30 December 2005 13:09, Dinesh Shah wrote:
There is not point in cribbing and crying. Remember, Those who had succeed also had the same conditions that you are complaining of. In spite of all the odds they created a success.
Snip chop hack cut tear rip etc.
I am not living in the past at all (and infact sometimes wonder wether a faster change will actually be benefical given the fact that vast swathes of our population can barely afford a square meal). Just want to point out the absolute value of freedom as compared to relative values of usability, performance etc. Also my point abt superhuman capabilities. Hats off to those who succeedd in building world class companies (N. Murthy) as opposed to those who just manipulated the system (Reliance?) or lived because of protection (ECIL, Bel, BHEL).
Very luckily we did have relatively much greater freedom than the soviets and chinese, which is why many good techies are able to do well now (unlike the soviet techies selling watermelons or working for the mafia).
rgds jtd
On Saturday 31 December 2005 14:56, JTD wrote:
I am not living in the past at all (and infact sometimes wonder wether a faster change will actually be benefical given the fact that vast swathes of our population can barely afford a square meal). Just want to point out the absolute value of freedom as compared to relative values of usability, performance etc. Also my point abt superhuman capabilities. Hats off to those who succeedd in building world class companies (N. Murthy) as opposed to those who just manipulated the system (Reliance?) or lived because of protection (ECIL, Bel, BHEL).
Very luckily we did have relatively much greater freedom than the soviets and chinese, which is why many good techies are able to do well now (unlike the soviet techies selling watermelons or working for the mafia).
My point exactly. The system is supposed to help small companies grow and prosper while our system just hampers it... May be I am talking crazy. Indian system wasn't ever meant to allow companies to grow into big businesses, make lots of profit, drive the economic growth, give people jobs, money which inturn drives the economy. May be India was supposed to remain the way it was. Pathetic small kingdoms at each others' throats.
JTD wrote:
Snip chop hack cut tear rip etc.
I agree with this. Lets end this topic. Its too negative about our country and its problems. This great Nation needs a positive attitude. What I have observed about my successfull friends, collegues and clients is that they spend less time cribbing and more time in working with a focussed positive attitude. That helps them overcome any stumbling block.
Regards,
Rony.
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Mitul Limbani wrote:
Hello Guys,
Can anyone update on the Jan Meet and Agenda ?
The meet is at Five Gardens at Matunga. Right now, it is the garden thats at the left hand end of Parsi Colony, next to the School. It has a bent tree that grows out horizontally and then goes vertical. It is a good landmark. Agenda still unknown but my request for Fax Messaging in Linux still stays for all experts. :)
Regards,
Rony.
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Rony Bill wrote:
JTD wrote:
Snip chop hack cut tear rip etc.
I agree with this. Lets end this topic. Its too negative about our country and its problems. This great Nation needs a positive attitude. What I have observed about my successfull friends, collegues and clients is that they spend less time cribbing and more time in working with a focussed positive attitude. That helps them overcome any stumbling block.
Just a little addition. Those techies who find the maze of Govt. liscences and rules too complex can still get their dreams fulfilled. Just as we are good at technical stuff, there are CAs and financial experts who are good at financial as well as Govt. jugglery. So if you have a trusted friend who is a CA, make him your partner and leave all Govt. headaches to him. If no friend is available, hire a good CA as your advisor. Let each one do the work he is good at and lets move ahead. :)
Regards,
Rony.
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Hi,
Well I perfectly agree with Dinesh.
Normal plight of any budding Entrepreneur is to handle all the various level of taxation rather then focusing on building the business (Service Tax, VAT, Professional Tax,Fringe Benefit Tax,Inter state taxes, this list is endless, they are trying to duplicate US Taxation, without providing the freedom to compete any business or infrastructure as US does.)
No wonder why we have players who manipulate the system, India is not a good place for startups :), since Indian Govt. has very little or I would say nothing to offer the startups to grow.
Thanks & Regards, Mitul Limbani, Founder & CEO, Enterux Solutions, The Enterprise Linux Company (TM), www.enterux.com
Quoting DJ dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com:
On Saturday 31 December 2005 14:56, JTD wrote:
I am not living in the past at all (and infact sometimes wonder wether a faster change will actually be benefical given the fact
that
vast swathes of our population can barely afford a square meal).
Just
want to point out the absolute value of freedom as compared to relative values of usability, performance etc. Also my point abt superhuman capabilities. Hats off to those who succeedd in
building
world class companies (N. Murthy) as opposed to those who just manipulated the system (Reliance?) or lived because of protection (ECIL, Bel, BHEL).
Very luckily we did have relatively much greater freedom than the soviets and chinese, which is why many good techies are able to do well now (unlike the soviet techies selling watermelons or working for the mafia).
My point exactly. The system is supposed to help small companies
grow
and prosper while our system just hampers it... May be I am talking crazy. Indian system wasn't ever meant to allow companies to grow
into
big businesses, make lots of profit, drive the economic growth,
give
people jobs, money which inturn drives the economy. May be India
was
supposed to remain the way it was. Pathetic small kingdoms at each others' throats.
-- Dinesh A. Joshi
Hello Guys,
Can anyone update on the Jan Meet and Agenda ?
I saw the posts result into too much of Top Posting that i never discussed the agenda and it moved on somewhere else :)
JTD suggested Five Gardens (umm open :) )
PLEASE DONT TOP POST, I really need to know where is the Meet and what is the agenda !!!
TIA, Mitul Limbani, Enterux Solutions, www.enterux.com
Agenda still unknown but my request for Fax Messaging in Linux still stays for all experts. :)
Are there any Asterisk Geeks/Enthusiasts around ?
Thanks & Regards, Mitul Limbani, Founder & CEO, Enterux Solutions, The Enterprise Linux Company (TM), www.enterux.com
On Sunday 01 January 2006 17:56, Mitul Limbani wrote:
Agenda still unknown but my request for Fax Messaging in Linux still stays for all experts. :)
Are there any Asterisk Geeks/Enthusiasts around ?
Me. Trying things out as yet. One issue is the exorbitant price of the line interface.
On Monday 02 January 2006 13:28, JTD wrote:
On Sunday 01 January 2006 17:56, Mitul Limbani wrote:
Agenda still unknown but my request for Fax Messaging in Linux still stays for all experts. :)
Are there any Asterisk Geeks/Enthusiasts around ?
Me. Trying things out as yet. One issue is the exorbitant price of the line interface.
One small issue. Connecting a leased line or internet leased line to a PBX is a crime. U need to pay fees to DOT depending on wether u are a Closed User Group or not. Some how the depression keeps raising it's head.
Mitul Limbani wrote:
Well, List admin thinks I did a top post :) (Here i changed the Subject line, makes more sense now ?)
Top posting means putting your reply above the original. Putting it below the original is the norm here. :)
Regards,
Rony.
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Jtd,
Yeah, line interfaces do cost a little higher as of now. Till that time one can use the cost effective single channel card (X1000P)
Mitul Limbani Enterux Solutions, www.enterux.com
Quoting JTD jtd@mtnl.net.in:
On Sunday 01 January 2006 17:56, Mitul Limbani wrote:
Agenda still unknown but my request for Fax Messaging in Linux still stays for all experts. :)
Are there any Asterisk Geeks/Enthusiasts around ?
Me. Trying things out as yet. One issue is the exorbitant price of
the
line interface.
-- rgds jtd
Thanks & Regards, Mitul Limbani, Founder & CEO, Enterux Solutions, The Enterprise Linux Company (TM), www.enterux.com
On Monday 02 January 2006 16:54, Mitul Limbani wrote:
Well, List admin thinks I did a top post :) (Here i changed the Subject line, makes more sense now ?) Infact I was trying to populate some topic for our meet!
One small issue. Connecting a leased line or internet leased line to a PBX is a crime. U need to pay fees to DOT depending on wether u are a Closed User Group or not. Some how the depression keeps raising it's head.
There is a small change here JTD, If your PBX doesnt terminate into PSTN, then attaching it to leased line is perfectly alright. But since Phone companies here are not permitted to provide VoIP trunks to customers. So it turns out to be illegal.
That is right. But kind of doubles the cost - 2 PBXs, two phones per desk, etc. and halves the utility.
Actually this is very much related to our earlier talks on Tech & Business in India (that thread is dead so no more comments here)
Is it our heads which keeps finding the wall or should u just wink wink and let the customer face the music.
Well, List admin thinks I did a top post :) (Here i changed the Subject line, makes more sense now ?) Infact I was trying to populate some topic for our meet!
One small issue. Connecting a leased line or internet leased line to a PBX is a crime. U need to pay fees to DOT depending on wether u are a Closed User Group or not. Some how the depression keeps raising it's head.
There is a small change here JTD, If your PBX doesnt terminate into PSTN, then attaching it to leased line is perfectly alright. But since Phone companies here are not permitted to provide VoIP trunks to customers. So it turns out to be illegal.
Actually this is very much related to our earlier talks on Tech & Business in India (that thread is dead so no more comments here)
Thanks & Regards, Mitul Limbani, Founder & CEO, Enterux Solutions, The Enterprise Linux Company (TM), www.enterux.com
Quoting JTD jtd@mtnl.net.in:
That is right. But kind of doubles the cost - 2 PBXs, two phones per desk, etc. and halves the utility.
Actually this works great when a company has multiple offices and has too many inter-office phone activity (cutting those calls to zero, and thats perfectly LEGAL)
Also providing IP phones only on top executives desk who needs to be in touch with branch offices India wide.
Thanks & Regards, Mitul Limbani, Founder & CEO, Enterux Solutions, The Enterprise Linux Company (TM), www.enterux.com
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Devdas Bhagat -
Dinesh Joshi -
Dinesh Shah -
DJ
-
JTD -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
Mitul Limbani -
Philip Tellis -
Richard Victor Correia -
Rony Bill -
Satya