hello jtd, Abhishek, kenneth and other friends on the list. I could have specially sent this email off list to those whose names I mentioned at the top. but I want more people to read this email for spreading awareness because what I am going to ask is a new subject for me as well. I need an accounting software that falls under the FOSS model. it should compeet with Talli so that even common business men will use it. I remember Abhishek telling me the other day that probably Kenneth has done some work in this direction. the good news for me from what he further told me is that it is in python. kenneth, is that true? can I get your source code so that I too can work on it or may be even improve it? regards. Krishnakant.
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On Saturday 14 October 2006 12:09 AM, krishnakant Mane cobbled together some glyphs to say:
I remember Abhishek telling me the other day that probably Kenneth has done some work in this direction. the good news for me from what he further told me is that it is in python. kenneth, is that true? can I get your source code so that I too can work on it or may be even improve it?
Regards, BG
- -- Baishampayan Ghose b.ghose@ubuntu.com Ubuntu -- Linux for Human Beings http://www.ubuntu.com/
1024D/86361B74 BB2C E244 15AD 05C5 523A 90E7 4249 3494 8636 1B74
On 14-Oct-06, at 12:09 AM, krishnakant Mane wrote:
the good news for me from what he further told me is that it is in python. kenneth, is that true? can I get your source code so that I too can work on it or may be even improve it?
all true - http://avsap.sourceforge.net <--- pretty old now, but in about 6-7 languages. frankly i got frustrated as a lot of people were very enthusiastic about helping/contributing until it actualy came to the point of doing work ... I have rewritten the underlying accounting engine, a demo of which can be seen at http://avsap.org.in (note, this demo is in plone, but no way is avsap ever going to be in plone)
On 10/14/06, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
hello jtd, Abhishek, kenneth and other friends on the list. I could have specially sent this email off list to those whose names I mentioned at the top. but I want more people to read this email for spreading awareness because what I am going to ask is a new subject for me as well. I need an accounting software that falls under the FOSS model. it should compeet with Talli so that even common business men will use it. I remember Abhishek telling me the other day that probably Kenneth has done some work in this direction. the good news for me from what he further told me is that it is in python. kenneth, is that true? can I get your source code so that I too can work on it or may be even improve it? regards. Krishnakant.
try GnuCash. www.*gnucash*.org/
On 14-Oct-06, at 9:27 AM, balwant singh wrote:
try GnuCash. www.*gnucash*.org/
have you used it?
On 14/10/06, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
an accountant who can be hired is unlikely to be able to have the depth of domain knoowledge to guide a killer FA app. We have a killer team in Abhishek+Saswata - they have the knowledge, the interest - only problem is how to get the horse to drink the water ;-)
Kenneth, I had a meeting with Abhishek just a couple of days back and we are meeting again once his office is done with the renovation work etc. I will be mean while looking at the code from your project. However it will be nice if more people can contact me off the list so that a good community based team can be developed around it. Abhishek seams to have a good hold on the back office domain and from the talk we had that day, I could understand that Abhishek understand the need of the small businesses very well. Abhishek, may be we can have a small formal meeting with Kenneth if he is available. other interested people can also join in. the main point here is that once this problem of talli is solved, a huge community will embrace gnu/linux happyly. and bringing gnu/linux down to the common man is a major task still undone. regards. Krishnakant.
Sometime on Sat, Oct 14, 2006 at 01:27:05PM +0530, krishnakant Mane said:
I will be mean while looking at the code from your project. However it will be nice if more people can contact me off the list so that a good community based team can be developed around it. Abhishek seams to have a good hold on the back office domain and from the talk we had that day, I could understand that Abhishek understand the need of the small businesses very well. Abhishek, may be we can have a small formal meeting with Kenneth if he is available. other interested people can also join in. the main point here is that once this problem of talli is solved, a huge community will embrace gnu/linux happyly.
I am also interested in having a Free accounting package. All the while i was planning to do a mini package of my own to get around with immediate problem and reinvent the wheel.
Anurag
On 14/10/06, Abhishek said:
Not to belittle anyone's efforts, as KG has obviously done some
splendid groundwork, >but for it to be a box office success, there needs to be a dedicated
team which will need to get paid.
correct! you have hit the nail in the head.
There can be guides, overseers, volunteers, helpers, but a dedicated
team needs to be >working on it full time and get paid at market rates.
that's exactly how it should be. afterall free means freedom and nothing else. talk about high quality programmers with an attitude to do some thing people will marvel at and appreciate, you get hundreds of such programmers who can work on market or slightly less than market rate for some days.
For this someone has to come up with a resource requirements list and
then put it >forward to the community who may choose to contribute towards it. yes, and contribution may be not just money, even some programming efords will be more than welcome.
Units can be A)Accountant B)Programmer C) infrastructure and with a
set timeline, an >opensource product can be achieved. yes why not. afterall there are big companies which base their business on free and open software.
Am sure there's a bunch of HNV individuals out there who wouldnt mind
contributing >big amounts provided they are shown a solid plan. that was what I was thinking as well. although we will find it a bit challenging to find some one to finance the project it will not be imposible. the problem lies in common questions every financer will ask us, "if your sorce is open, how do you plan to pay me back my money and profits". "every one will download your software for free!" Once this problem is over come and we find a nice means of convincing some financer to put in minimal finance, we can really make it a success.
Krishnakant has volunteered to be the pointman, which is great. Hope this time around, there can be a beta product by 2007 April and
hopefully a full >fledged app by 2008 april. yes indeed. Abhishek, this was one more necissity which you did not point out but is still available with us, your attitude. if we keep this attitude of having a deadline in a specified amount of time, we are already winning half the battle. The biggest reason why foss based projects fail is lack of time lines and project dragging in an infinite loop with people working in small groups here and there. I completely agree that we need a dedicated team to work on this project. and if I am the right pointer to point proper resources as Abhishek says, then we have the core ready by May 2007, take my word for that. *smile*. Krishnakant.
krishnakant Mane wrote:
the main point here is that once this problem of talli is solved, a huge community will embrace gnu/linux happyly. and bringing gnu/linux down to the common man is a major task still undone.
Here's a silly idea. Just as Linus created an oss kernel that worked just like unix but was not using its code, can the same be done for tally? If such a thing is possible, then the next problem would be to import data. If the data is locked, then it can be done in a crude way using OCR software over tally reports or screens.
Regards,
Rony. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
On Saturday 14 October 2006 13:48, Rony wrote:
Here's a silly idea. Just as Linus created an oss kernel that worked just like unix but was not using its code, can the same be done for tally? If such a thing is possible, then the next problem would be to import data. If the data is locked, then it can be done in a crude way using OCR software over tally reports or screens.
No need. All versions export csv. Which can be easily imported to a db.
jtd wrote:
On Saturday 14 October 2006 13:48, Rony wrote:
Here's a silly idea. Just as Linus created an oss kernel that worked just like unix but was not using its code, can the same be done for tally? If such a thing is possible, then the next problem would be to import data. If the data is locked, then it can be done in a crude way using OCR software over tally reports or screens.
No need. All versions export csv. Which can be easily imported to a db.
Thats great but is it alright to create an oss clone of tally, keeping in mind that users are looking for a tally replacement for linux? Is it legal?
Regards,
Rony.
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
On Saturday 14 October 2006 19:16, Rony wrote:
jtd wrote:
On Saturday 14 October 2006 13:48, Rony wrote:
Here's a silly idea. Just as Linus created an oss kernel that worked just like unix but was not using its code, can the same be done for tally? If such a thing is possible, then the next problem would be to import data. If the data is locked, then it can be done in a crude way using OCR software over tally reports or screens.
No need. All versions export csv. Which can be easily imported to a db.
Thats great but is it alright to create an oss clone of tally,
U are not creating a clone. U will be creating a database driven software with a user configurable interface. The vendor will configure (install a skin ) it to the clients requirement.
keeping in mind that users are looking for a tally replacement for linux? Is it legal?
As long as u dont use a debugger.
Hi Everyone,
First, I am against the concept of cloning tally. Because tally is a very unsafe software. We refer to it as a "Time Bomb". I have explained this in the past on the group, but let me explain again.
In tally, you can insert an accounting transaction at any point of time behind in date. It will automatically renumber all vouchers and documents. There is no trail or any indication showing that it has been done. Similarly, you can delete an acccounting transaction at any point of time. Again, no one will be any wiser. In a corporate (or even SME Segment), this is dangerous as the accountant may manipulate the data for his own purpose, causing a loss to the organisation. I have made good money in the past by explaining this to the clients and sold them our services and moved them to alternate software.
Second, I think we should build web-based software. It is easier to run (everyone has broadband connection today), easier to maintain (you do not have to go to the clients office to solve the problem). It is also more popular platform. An added fact is that it works in case of multiple branch scenario and also allows owners to see the data from home.
Third, with all respects to Kenneth, there are already existing accounting software that is good, but not designed for India. The 2 I like best is CKERP and WebERP. I have used both. Both have some faults and problems which can be solved. The advantage is that they are stable software and already used by people. You will need to add a few modules for taking care of Indian Tax Laws and providing for Indian GAP rules. It will be much faster than starting from scrap.
We may even strip down the software to remove things we dont plan to use (eg. CKERP has a small CRM module). and add things they dont have (Fixed Asset Register and automatic depreciation computation). Using this route, with a team of 5 programmers, in 3 months we will be ready to start shipping the software. You can give the software free and the Business Revenue Module will be by way of paid support and customisation. A 15 man-month project will not cost more than Rs. 250,000, I am sure funds can be raised even from this group.
Abhisekh believes (I spoke to him on phone) that we will need to use AJAX so that we can give them keyboard hotkeys, etc. We can always do that in version 2. At least the software will be up, running and distributable in a minimum time frame.
I remember Kennith had reservation against using php based software, primarily on security. But not being a programmer, I can not comment.
OK Team, let me know if this interests you.
Regards Saswata
On 14/10/06 22:09 +0530, Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:
Hi Everyone,
First, I am against the concept of cloning tally. Because tally is a very unsafe software. We refer to it as a "Time Bomb". I have explained this in the past on the group, but let me explain again.
In tally, you can insert an accounting transaction at any point of time behind in date. It will automatically renumber all vouchers and documents. There is no trail or any indication showing that it has been done. Similarly, you can delete an acccounting transaction at any point of time. Again, no one will be any wiser. In a corporate (or even SME Segment), this is dangerous as the accountant may manipulate the data for his own purpose, causing a loss to the organisation. I have made good money in the past by explaining this to the clients and sold them our services and moved them to alternate software.
That is precisely why most SMEs like Tally. Accountants like Tally because they can input data quite fast.
Second, I think we should build web-based software. It is easier to run
I disagree. Web stuff is far harder to get right than a plain, simple client/server thing.
(everyone has broadband connection today), easier to maintain (you do not have to go to the clients office to solve the problem). It is also more popular platform. An added fact is that it works in case of multiple branch scenario and also allows owners to see the data from home.
X works for that.
Third, with all respects to Kenneth, there are already existing accounting software that is good, but not designed for India. The 2 I like best is CKERP and WebERP. I have used both. Both have some faults and problems which can be solved. The advantage is that they are stable software and already used by people. You will need to add a few modules for taking care of Indian Tax Laws and providing for Indian GAP rules. It will be much faster than starting from scrap.
I say we use the backends, but put the frontends on regular applications. X is designed to run over the network, and you don't need to bother about the complexities of web apps. For Windows users, there is NX or VNC.
We may even strip down the software to remove things we dont plan to use (eg. CKERP has a small CRM module). and add things they dont have (Fixed Asset Register and automatic depreciation computation). Using this route, with a team of 5 programmers, in 3 months we will be ready to
What kind of programmers? Personally, my architecture would look something like this:
DB -> stored procs for data insertion/modification/reporting/logging -> application layer API -> GUI frontend.
Devdas Bhagat
Devdas Bhagat wrote:
On 14/10/06 22:09 +0530, Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:
****In tally, you can insert an accounting transaction at any point of time behind in date. It will automatically renumber all vouchers and documents. There is no trail or any indication showing that it has been done. Similarly, you can delete an acccounting transaction at any point of time. Again, no one will be any wiser. In a corporate (or even SME Segment), this is dangerous as the accountant may manipulate the data for his own purpose, causing a loss to the organisation. I have made good money in the past by explaining this to the clients and sold them our services and moved them to alternate software.
That is precisely why most SMEs like Tally. Accountants like Tally because they can input data quite fast.
But please understand that it allows you to manipulate the data by putting in entries in the middle. That makes the program unsafe from the owners perspective. There is no data integrity. There is no guarentee that the data you see now is the same as the one you saw earlier.
Second, I think we should build web-based software. It is easier to run
I disagree. Web stuff is far harder to get right than a plain, simple client/server thing.
(everyone has broadband connection today), easier to maintain (you do not have to go to the clients office to solve the problem). It is also more popular platform. An added fact is that it works in case of multiple branch scenario and also allows owners to see the data from home.
X works for that.
X will work in the office. How will you connect multiple offices to the same database ? And how will you allow the owner to access the data from outside the office (say from his home). Will you allow an user from outside the office to log into X ? How much bandwidth do you need from working from outside the office ?
Regards Saswata
On Sunday 15 October 2006 23:38, Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:
Second, I think we should build web-based software. It is easier to run
I disagree. Web stuff is far harder to get right than a plain,
X will work in the office. How will you connect multiple offices to the same database ?
That is one of the reasons for using databases - concurrent access.
And how will you allow the owner to access the data from outside the office (say from his home).
Not a problem with a client server arch.
Will you allow an user from outside the office to log into X ?
A policy issue not a technical one.
How much bandwidth do you need from working from outside the office
Depends on what u are doing and on how u have written your app, but would work on a reliable 64kb connection.
jtd wrote:
On Sunday 15 October 2006 23:38, Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:
Second, I think we should build web-based software. It is easier to run
I disagree. Web stuff is far harder to get right than a plain,
X will work in the office. How will you connect multiple offices to the same database ?
That is one of the reasons for using databases - concurrent access.
OK, either I dont understand what is going on or people on the group are being particularly obtuse. Even with the database access and client server architecture, the software can only be used within the office. It can not be used from outside the office. Today many of the clients you want will have multiple offices, and owners want to be able to access the data when they are outside the office.
Coming up with solutions like using ssh tunneling goes against your own aim of making and keeping the software simple enough to use without having to call an expert IT support personnel everytime you want to switch the computer on.
Most companies will in any case be cagy about allowing external access to an internal LAN network. It is different to set up the firewall to allow apache to serve pages to users from outside the office.
And how will you allow the owner to access the data from outside the office (say from his home).
Not a problem with a client server arch.
Client Server arch is a negative point in this scenario. Client Server tech was designed to work inside the same office.
Will you allow an user from outside the office to log into X ?
A policy issue not a technical one.
This policy issue is very important. Not taking this into account is going to be a very stupid move.
How much bandwidth do you need from working from outside the office
Depends on what u are doing and on how u have written your app, but would work on a reliable 64kb connection.
We are working with multi-branch set up in our clients offices. We have 1 mbps triband lines connecting each of the branches. Even with that, and with ssh tunneling set up, we find the set up a problem. I suspect the 64kb line is going to be a source of frustration in client server arch environment.
Regards Saswata
We are working with multi-branch set up in our clients offices. We have 1 mbps triband lines connecting each of the branches. Even with that, and with ssh tunneling set up, we find the set up a problem. I suspect the 64kb line is going to be a source of frustration in client server arch environment.
Wow !! you got to be doing some very heavy stuff over those links. Are you replicating the databases on all the locations ?
This requirement of multi-branches would mean that the app would need to work with a master-client kind of architecture so that each site can contain only restricted data as well as centralized reporting be feasible.
If we do have a broadband kind of setup, is the idea of setting up a dyndns based hosting an option ? It works even over dialups, though not very reliable if the connection is flaky.
A web based interface should serve well in this case, or even a web-service based one.
- Navneet
Navneet Karnani wrote:
We are working with multi-branch set up in our clients offices. We have 1 mbps triband lines connecting each of the branches. Even with that, and with ssh tunneling set up, we find the set up a problem. I suspect the 64kb line is going to be a source of frustration in client server arch environment.
Wow !! you got to be doing some very heavy stuff over those links. Are you replicating the databases on all the locations ?
No, but we have 6 accountants, plus another 8 ops guys using the software though remote desktop. The software is sitting in a windows 2003 server people are connecting to it from 4 offices through a linux proxy server.
This requirement of multi-branches would mean that the app would need to work with a master-client kind of architecture so that each site can contain only restricted data as well as centralized reporting be feasible.
Web based system allows you to work with less load.
If we do have a broadband kind of setup, is the idea of setting up a dyndns based hosting an option ? It works even over dialups, though not very reliable if the connection is flaky.
We use dyndns to connect various offices to the HO. But the 1 mbps connection is shared with mail, internet access and also all 4 branches coming in to the HO creates a constraints at times.
A web based interface should serve well in this case, or even a web-service based one.
- Navneet
On Thursday 19 October 2006 00:24, Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:
No, but we have 6 accountants, plus another 8 ops guys using the software though remote desktop. The software is sitting in a windows 2003 server people are connecting to it from 4 offices through a linux proxy server.
Run ethereal for some nasty suprises.
This requirement of multi-branches would mean that the app would need to work with a master-client kind of architecture so that each site can contain only restricted data as well as centralized reporting be feasible.
Web based system allows you to work with less load.
If we do have a broadband kind of setup, is the idea of setting up a dyndns based hosting an option ? It works even over dialups, though not very reliable if the connection is flaky.
We use dyndns to connect various offices to the HO. But the 1 mbps connection is shared with mail, internet access and also all 4 branches coming in to the HO creates a constraints at times.
U need a bandwidth shaper. Absolute must for such situations. GNU/Linux box with iptables and netfilter.
On Tuesday 17 October 2006 19:32, Navneet Karnani wrote:
Wow !! you got to be doing some very heavy stuff over those links. Are you replicating the databases on all the locations ?
Eh? Central database with a backup machine would do the job quite well without the requirement to update the DB at several geo locations.
--- Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
Eh? Central database with a backup machine would do the job quite well without the requirement to update the DB at several geo locations.
Since the D word was mentioned, whoever has worked on an accounting package, whether halfway or full way, can you please send your database schema, ER diagrams and documentation if any?
Navneet & kenneth, especially you two since you have pretty much a good app in place already.
Others are free to contribute too. Dont think that your app is specific to your work or is too small or too insignificant.
If we can get multiple schemas and documentation, it would then give the programmers as well as accountants of what is in place and what needs to be done.
Thanks abhishek
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On 17/10/06 23:23 +0530, Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote: <snip>
OK, either I dont understand what is going on or people on the group are being particularly obtuse.
The first.
Even with the database access and client server architecture, the software can only be used within the office.
Why?
It can not be used from outside the office. Today many of the clients you want will have multiple offices, and owners want to be able to access the data when they are outside the office.
And nothing stops them from doing it, except lack of connectivity.
Coming up with solutions like using ssh tunneling goes against your own aim of making and keeping the software simple enough to use without having to call an expert IT support personnel everytime you want to switch the computer on.
You are assuming that the tunnel will be exposed to the end user.
Also VNC is pretty much point and click, and tunneling it using Putty on Windows (if you WANT to use Windows) is trivial.
Most companies will in any case be cagy about allowing external access to an internal LAN network. It is different to set up the firewall to allow apache to serve pages to users from outside the office.
HTTP *is* a client server mechanism. Technically, the tunnel is a more secure way of doing things.
And how will you allow the owner to access the data from outside the office (say from his home).
Not a problem with a client server arch.
Client Server arch is a negative point in this scenario. Client Server tech was designed to work inside the same office.
Please do not confuse between peer to peer and client-server. A client-server architecture implies that there will be central system (the server) to which all other systems connect (the clients), make requests and get back responses. A peer to peer architecture implies that either side can initiate a connection, and the other can respond.
A common example of a peer to peer system is the IP. All hosts are equal in theory (NATted hosts are not peers). Examples of a client server system are the various protocols which sit on top of IP, such as HTTP, SMTP, POP3, IMAP, FTP, ...
This has nothing to do with a LAN, a MAN or a WAN (which are physical architectures).
Will you allow an user from outside the office to log into X ?
A policy issue not a technical one.
This policy issue is very important. Not taking this into account is going to be a very stupid move.
Important? Yes. Should application writers take it into consideration? Not necessarily.
Scenario 1) The user will connect to the database from a remote office. The user has a local X server, and a copy of the application configured to connect to the main office. This will work fine. Scenario 2) The user will connect to the main office via a VPN (per user, or site to site), and then login via a X server provided at the main office for that purpose.
How much bandwidth do you need from working from outside the office
Depends on what u are doing and on how u have written your app, but would work on a reliable 64kb connection.
We are working with multi-branch set up in our clients offices. We have 1 mbps triband lines connecting each of the branches. Even with that, and with ssh tunneling set up, we find the set up a problem. I suspect the 64kb line is going to be a source of frustration in client server arch environment.
What are you doing on those lines? Is it the bandwidth which is an issue, or the latency (different issues)?
Devdas Bhagat
--- Saswata Banerjee & Associates scrapo@saswatabanerjee.com wrote:
OK, either I dont understand what is going on or people on the group are being particularly obtuse. Even with the database access and client server architecture, the software can only be used within the office. It can not be used from outside the office.
Hi, Probably there is some confusion, but once again i say, let me show the application i am using currently and everything will be clear. It meets almost all our requirements of usability, technology and scale even at a first glance.
All i need is putty (on a windows machine or on wine) and I can come over to your location and show you.
a) It allows for fast entry. b) low resource usage c) security, d) easy maintenance e) remote connectivity without noticeable data loss even over a 256 K connection.
-abhi
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--- Abhishek Daga abhishekdaga@yahoo.com wrote:
a) It allows for fast entry. b) low resource usage c) security, d) easy maintenance e) remote connectivity without noticeable data loss even over a 256 K connection.
-abhi
Correction: I meant without noticeable speed loss....
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On Tuesday 17 October 2006 23:23, Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:
jtd wrote:
On Sunday 15 October 2006 23:38, Saswata Banerjee & Associates
wrote:
Second, I think we should build web-based software. It is easier to run
I disagree. Web stuff is far harder to get right than a plain,
X will work in the office. How will you connect multiple offices to the same database ?
That is one of the reasons for using databases - concurrent access.
OK, either I dont understand what is going on or people on the group are being particularly obtuse.
sorry for sounding obtuse. I presumed several little thingies as understood.
Even with the database access and client server architecture, the software can only be used within the office. It can not be used from outside the office. Today many of the clients you want will have multiple offices, and owners want to be able to access the data when they are outside the office.
You can access a database (including flatfile "database") over a tcp link. The network is taken care of by the os. U woulsd require your app to be running on the machine u are using for access.
Coming up with solutions like using ssh tunneling
SSH tunelling, vpn, encryption etc, are for ensuring security over public wires. You could do away with the security part and things would still work the same. Additionally with ssh u do not require the app on the remote machine.
goes against your own aim of making and keeping the software simple enough to use without having to call an expert IT support personnel everytime you want to switch the computer on.
If u want security there will be some amount of setting up depending on the clients conectivity. Most customers would fall into a few broad categories anyway and once setup the same can be replicated quite easily.
Most companies will in any case be cagy about allowing external access to an internal LAN network.
The requiremnt of external access is in direct conflict with this directive.
It is different to set up the firewall to allow apache to serve pages to users from outside the office.
Which is same as external access minus the security.
And how will you allow the owner to access the data from outside the office (say from his home).
Not a problem with a client server arch.
Client Server arch is a negative point in this scenario. Client Server tech was designed to work inside the same office.
It was designed specifically to allow multiple users accross diverse geo locations to access databases, which ofcourse worked even better on a lan - 10 mbps shared over 150 to 250 machines - which translates to well below 32kbps per machine.
Will you allow an user from outside the office to log into X ?
A policy issue not a technical one.
This policy issue is very important. Not taking this into account is going to be a very stupid move.
Saswata u are mixing up things. Once u decide a policy, the networking portion will be battened down accordingly. It has almost nothing to do with the capability of the database to accept a connection over the network. To us a network is two points capable of pinging each other, the physical location is of no consequence given the right policy. .
How much bandwidth do you need from working from outside the office
Depends on what u are doing and on how u have written your app, but would work on a reliable 64kb connection.
We are working with multi-branch set up in our clients offices. We have 1 mbps triband lines connecting each of the branches. Even with that, and with ssh tunneling set up, we find the set up a problem.
I have setups working on a mix of dialup 9600 bps (one or two machines), ISDN and triband too. They work without a "hitch". Occasionally the triband connection will fail, requiring the modem to be rebooted, for which u wire up a gizmo to the GNU/linux PIII firewall which is pinging several external ips and knows when to reboot the modem. About once in several months MTNL will conk out and require manual intervention. Ofcourse there are critical locations and such things could be a disaster. In which case u use LL and ISDN backup. The problems u are facing could be one of the above, in addition to occasional high latency. Also your app may be using heavy widgets as pointed out by DB or might be downloading the entire screen from the server another big nono.
I suspect the 64kb line is going to be a source of frustration in client server arch environment.
depends on many things. But with a properly written app, it works well.
As u can see access from multiple locations is a given, subject to policy, and will not affect us as we should be writing the app to work over a thin network.
On 15/10/06 23:38 +0530, Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote: <snip>
But please understand that it allows you to manipulate the data by putting in entries in the middle. That makes the program unsafe from the owners perspective. There is no data integrity. There is no guarentee that the data you see now is the same as the one you saw earlier.
Quoting myself:
That is precisely why most SMEs like Tally. Accountants like Tally because they can input data quite fast.
SMEs like Tally because they _can_ manipulate accounts without a trace.
<snip>
X will work in the office. How will you connect multiple offices to the same database ?
X is already network capable. You application is an X client, and speaks to the X server. X can be tunneled over ssh, or the client application can run locally and talk to a remote database, preferably over a VPN. If you want a Windows analogy, think MS-SQL server as the backend, not MS Access or a flat file like Tally.
And how will you allow the owner to access the data from outside the office (say from his home).
X, VNC, NX.
Will you allow an user from outside the office to log into X ?
a) The user has an X server, and uses a VPN or ssh to access the data and runs the app remotely. b) The user has a VNC client, and connects to a remote VNC server. c) The user runs a VNC applet in a browser. b) The user uses NX to connect to the remote server and gets a full desktop.
How much bandwidth do you need from working from outside the office ?
I have successfully used X over dialup at 33.6 kbps. I have seen NX being used (slowly) over GPRS to view a full KDE desktop.
Not using a heavy widgetset allows for good network performance.
Devdas Bhagat
On Tuesday 17 October 2006 15:23, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
I have successfully used X over dialup at 33.6 kbps. I have seen NX being used (slowly) over GPRS to view a full KDE desktop.
Not using a heavy widgetset allows for good network performance.
Given that current bandwidth is 256kb even in tier 2 cities that would work like a charm.
Devdas Bhagat wrote:
SMEs like Tally because they _can_ manipulate accounts without a trace.
Yes !!!! That's why I like Tally. And I still use the DOS console version (ver 4.5) because it is very fast. I am a self employed guy who likes GNU/Linux but still has to use dosemu because a lot of apps that I use for my office work are under DOS. And so are with 90% of the business acquaintances that I know in my field.
I'll tell you another thing with Tally 4.5. There is no automatic Closing Stock, you have to manually feed the data. Stocks are not automatically tracked as there is no support for it in this version. Later versions of Tally has stock tracking support, but I refuse to use it. I use my own system developed under Foxpro to track my stocks. So, I am always aware about my correct stock position at any given time. But the financial accounting is maintained using Tally, and I enter the Closing stock figures manually, which of course can be easily manipulated.
Warning : This is helpful only for small/medium business guys like me who look after their own accounting.
I always wanted to develop an app _similar_ to Tally 4.5 under GNU/Linux. The best thing is that it uses it own way of keeping the data. No need of external databases. That makes it very fast ( I am sure there will counter arguments to this saying that external DBMS is also fast, etc..... but my point is that I can carry my complete 10 years of data + the app (tally 4.5) within 4-5 MB zip file). In fact, if you take into consideration basic files to run DOS (command.com io.sys msdos.sys + a few utilities ) you can carry your whole accounting system within 7-8 MB zip file. Which is actually what I do. I carry the whole DOS system, Foxpro (zipped - 12 MB) , Tally, and my data on a USB drive, then start Linux from a live CD (Slax Live CD) then unzip my whole DOS system on ramdisk, run dosemu. At the end of the day, I update my USB drive with new data and thats it. Isn't that fun !!! In fact I have made a few start and stop scripts which do the necessary preparation of unzipping, linking, etc. routine stuff that I have to do everyday when starting/stopping the system. BTW, I have a 260 MB hard disk on my office system. Yes, its 260 MB - 60 % free space.
If we want to make GNU/Linux more popular with masses, we need something like Tally. Period.
Rajen.
P.S.: I have seen an app developed by an independent developer which has the *exact* interface like Tally 4.5 and has full accounting system with stock support, lan and concurrent multiple access. I couldn't find how the data is stored, but I will find it and let you know.
On Sunday 22 October 2006 05:07, Rajen M. Parekh wrote:
GNU/Linux. The best thing is that it uses it own way of keeping the data. No need of external databases. That makes it very fast ( I am sure there will counter arguments to this saying that external DBMS
Rajen, dont worry. I guess this app is going to have support for several databases. The database can be a Oracle server or just a flat file. Its just a matter of replacing the database abstraction layer.
Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Sunday 22 October 2006 05:07, Rajen M. Parekh wrote:
GNU/Linux. The best thing is that it uses it own way of keeping the data. No need of external databases. That makes it very fast ( I am sure there will counter arguments to this saying that external DBMS
Rajen, dont worry. I guess this app is going to have support for several databases. The database can be a Oracle server or just a flat file. Its just a matter of replacing the database abstraction layer.
The clash is between creating a package for the retailers and creating a higher level corporate accounting system. The compromise solution would be to have it scalable from basic tally type to a layer over it thats for the corporates.
Regards,
Rony. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
On Sunday 22 October 2006 14:21, Rony wrote:
The clash is between creating a package for the retailers and creating a higher level corporate accounting system. The compromise solution would be to have it scalable from basic tally type to a layer over it thats for the corporates.
No need for a compromise. A proper architecture should ensure that it will scale up for the corporates and scale down for the retailers / single home users.
Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Sunday 22 October 2006 14:21, Rony wrote:
The clash is between creating a package for the retailers and creating a higher level corporate accounting system. The compromise solution would be to have it scalable from basic tally type to a layer over it thats for the corporates.
No need for a compromise. A proper architecture should ensure that it will scale up for the corporates and scale down for the retailers / single home users.
True but the corporate ones don't want to support the tally feature that allows manipulation of records.
Regards,
Rony. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Sunday 22 October 2006 15:05, Rony wrote:
True but the corporate ones don't want to support the tally feature that allows manipulation of records.
Rony it is open source for crying out loud! It can be modified for minor changes!
Who will be doing the modifications? The original plan and as the subject line suggests, it has to be a tally alternative. If the tally part is kept optional under `do-it-yourself' open source, then its goes against the spirit of the project.
Regards,
Rony.
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
On Monday 23 October 2006 17:08, Rony wrote:
Who will be doing the modifications? The original plan and as the subject line suggests, it has to be a tally alternative. If the tally part is kept optional under `do-it-yourself' open source, then its goes against the spirit of the project.
Look you can make one set of people happy at a time. You cant deliver a killer product and expect it to make everyone happy. Its not one size fits all kinda thing. Atleast this is what I feel.
On 23-Oct-06, at 10:38 PM, Rony wrote:
Who will be doing the modifications? The original plan and as the subject line suggests, it has to be a tally alternative. If the tally part is kept optional under `do-it-yourself' open source, then its goes against the spirit of the project.
he is talking about enabling editing/deletion of vouchers
On 14-Oct-06, at 10:09 PM, Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:
First, I am against the concept of cloning tally. Because tally is a very unsafe software. We refer to it as a "Time Bomb". I have explained this in the past on the group, but let me explain again.
In tally, you can insert an accounting transaction at any point of time behind in date. It will automatically renumber all vouchers and documents. There is no trail or any indication showing that it has been done. Similarly, you can delete an acccounting transaction at any point of time. Again, no one will be any wiser. In a corporate (or even SME Segment), this is dangerous as the accountant may manipulate the data for his own purpose, causing a loss to the organisation. I have made good money in the past by explaining this to the clients and sold them our services and moved them to alternate software.
agreed - we have discussed this before and it is my experience that tally is only used by accountants who are scrabbling around at the bottom of the food chain
Second, I think we should build web-based software. It is easier to run (everyone has broadband connection today), easier to maintain (you do not have to go to the clients office to solve the problem). It is also more popular platform. An added fact is that it works in case of multiple branch scenario and also allows owners to see the data from home.
as long as we separate presentation, business logic and data, there is no harm in having both web and gui interfaces. Note that high speed data entry is not possible on a web interface. We should plan for both
Third, with all respects to Kenneth, there are already existing accounting software that is good, but not designed for India. The 2 I like best is CKERP and WebERP. I have used both. Both have some faults and problems which can be solved. The advantage is that they are stable software and already used by people. You will need to add a few modules for taking care of Indian Tax Laws and providing for Indian GAP rules. It will be much faster than starting from scrap.
PHP will not cut it for a mission critical application - and if we are going the web+gui route - better to keep it in a language that can do both. Which rules out php anyway.
We may even strip down the software to remove things we dont plan to use (eg. CKERP has a small CRM module). and add things they dont have (Fixed Asset Register and automatic depreciation computation). Using this route, with a team of 5 programmers, in 3 months we will be ready to start shipping the software. You can give the software free and the Business Revenue Module will be by way of paid support and customisation. A 15 man-month project will not cost more than Rs. 250,000, I am sure funds can be raised even from this group.
no need to pay anyone - the bottleneck here is not programmers - it is domain knowledge
Abhisekh believes (I spoke to him on phone) that we will need to use AJAX so that we can give them keyboard hotkeys, etc. We can always do that in version 2. At least the software will be up, running and distributable in a minimum time frame.
AJAX and indian language support must be built in from the outset.
I remember Kennith had reservation against using php based software, primarily on security. But not being a programmer, I can not comment.
i *can* comment, but most of it would be unprintable ;-)
As for how people are going to make money from this - it is simple. No one wants/needs a pure FA package. We build a package which can be integrated into any custom package that the end-user has. And provide hooks for the retailer to add his custom modules. The retailer adds value by modifying - and others (including us) can make modules for sale/support. For example, the original version of Avsap was culled out of a bigger package which was written for a wholesaler in Amul products.
--- Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
Second, I think we should build web-based software. It is easier to
run (everyone has broadband connection today), easier to maintain (you do not have to go to the clients office to solve the problem).
I think a web based interface while being local would not require a broadband connection. the 100 Mbps LAN speed should suffice .. whether thick client or thin client.
We definitely have to pay people to ensure that there is a dedicated 10 hour a day, 9 days a week employee always working on the application.
Naive and fake as it may sound, my original aim from this was not to make money, but just have a kick ass application out there which will allow me to convert my traditional business PCs to linux. They already use OO and Firefox after some initial chu chu. And are happy with it. But by all means, if it makes money, why not.
Another thing which can be worked on in parallel.
Support. Support. Support. While phone support will be infrastructure intensive initially, how about a web based "live chat" support? The first question anyone will ask is, "what about support"?
If they are assured that at any given time there are 10-20-40 users ready on a forum to answer their questions, they will be a lot more assured. And documentation too ofcourse. Which no one will ever read but its nice to have.
Its an anciliary module, but one of the most important ones.
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On Sunday 15 October 2006 02:24, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
i *can* comment, but most of it would be unprintable ;-)
I bet you're going to recommend Python. I would've recommended PHP but you've got more experience that me :P
Anyway, what about GWT? We can use GWT. Its very simple to use and provides 100% abstraction from the icky HTML / JS aspects of the browsers so we can concentrate on the development rather than standardizing HTML and making it work in all browsers.
On 15/10/06 10:41 +0000, Dinesh Joshi wrote: <snip>
Anyway, what about GWT? We can use GWT. Its very simple to use and provides 100% abstraction from the icky HTML / JS aspects of the browsers so we can concentrate on the development rather than standardizing HTML and making it work in all browsers.
Have you ever tried to do rapid data entry using a web GUI?
Devdas Bhagat
On 15-Oct-06, at 4:47 PM, Navneet Karnani wrote:
Have you ever tried to do rapid data entry using a web GUI?
Have you tried using the new Google web apps (GMail?) from keyboard ? If not, you should try it. It works now. It was broken till a few years earlier and hence no one liked web apps.
think point of sale billing in a crowded cafe - do you think web can cut it? even X-gui cant - you need console for that
On 15/10/06 16:47 +0530, Navneet Karnani wrote: <snip>
Have you tried using the new Google web apps (GMail?) from keyboard ? If not, you should try it. It works now. It was broken till a few years earlier and hence no one liked web apps.
Hmm, I use mutt and vim. Gmail needs a bit more ... performance.
Devdas Bhagat
Sometime Today, DJ cobbled together some glyphs to say:
Anyway, what about GWT? We can use GWT. Its very simple to use and provides 100% abstraction from the icky HTML / JS aspects of the browsers so we can concentrate on the development rather than standardizing HTML and making it work in all browsers.
Are you sure it will work in all browsers? Have you tested with lynx? Does the generated code validate or even come close to validating? Is it semantically clean?
If you want to write a web app, you MUST learn HTML and Javascript. Avoiding that is going to make your web app unusable for a large section of users.
Philip
On Sunday 15 October 2006 16:45, Philip Tellis wrote:
If you want to write a web app, you MUST learn HTML and Javascript. Avoiding that is going to make your web app unusable for a large section of users.
So lets see, if I am a project manager and I want to make an app, what do I do?
1. Get people to learn JS / HTML and XHTML and all possible w3 standards. 2. Get people to build an extensive infrastructure like GWT. 3. Make a Java / Python / Perl / C / <insert your favorite language here> to JS/HTML compiler. 4. Tweak it until it generates perfect output for all browsers ( including Lynx and what not ) 5. Then start with actually building the app that I had in mind.
or do i do away with the first 4 steps and start with the last one directly? Yes I would do exactly that.
What is the need for the app to work in Lynx? People want to do some serious work so they give a damn about whether your code generates 100% standards compliant HTML / JS.
IMHO, it is not feasible for any project to survive or get completed if you're going start by getting together a bunch of programmers who start developing the app by learning JS/HTML/XHTML. Unless you have JS / HTML experts, you'll have them pulling out their hair in no time while trying to get code that works well with all possible browsers out there. I thought our main goal was to produce a working app rather than making people bald :P
This is all subject to using Java / GWT. If these tools aren't going to be used then the whole discussion is irrelevant.
Does anybody have better alternatives? I am not so much for the console apps. They are fast and very productive yet its difficult to get people to adopt them.
BTW How is Tally's interface? I've never tried it myself. Is it console based?
hi,
I have set up a wiki for discussion at:
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/financial/
please do join in. (I hope the horses will be able to drink this time)
On 15-Oct-06, at 6:43 PM, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
This is all subject to using Java / GWT. If these tools aren't going to be used then the whole discussion is irrelevant.
GWT is not FOSS - so we cant use it anyway
On 15/10/06, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
IMHO, it is not feasible for any project to survive or get completed if you're going start by getting together a bunch of programmers who start developing the app by learning JS/HTML/XHTML. Unless you have JS / HTML experts, you'll have them pulling out their hair in no time while trying to get code that works well with all possible browsers out there. I thought our main goal was to produce a working app rather than making people bald :P
exactly, use python and suddenly all problems wil go away. any programmer with object oriented base can learn python in not more than 15 days. and we all learn when we develop some thing. python is one language that does not depend on gracefulness of syntax. it is for getting work done. that's precisely the reason python is beeing chosen for this app.
This is all subject to using Java / GWT. If these tools aren't going to be used then the whole discussion is irrelevant.
again, python will be the best candidate for this project. we need some thing very powerful and easy to maintain. we want rapid application development, we want to have to scope of going on line with web interface if and when needed. I know thousands of people at the commertial level still using concel apps. I guess "console is hard to use and does not have capability to do much " is a mith amongst the windows/ dos users who believe that dos is the only command line. yet foxpro on dos is very widely used. and consol apps can also have menu driven easy to use interfaces. regards. Krishnakant.
--- krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
again, python will be the best candidate for this project. we need some thing very powerful and easy to maintain. we want rapid application development, we want to have to scope of going on line
Whatever raw materials we select the machinery needs to be put together.
Assuming that the working space will be ready on Nov 1, (5 seats to start) We would need PCs for the programmers, Testers.
You can email me off list with a list of spares you have that you can contribute so we can build boot strap systems that can be used by the programmers.
Doesnt have to be complete systems. Just email me your location, spare type,number of units and i'll compile a list and work out the logistics of getting them collected and then build the systems.
For instance, someone could have a spare hard drive lying around, while another could have just the Cabinets and SMPS while some may have motherboards or CPUs lying around. Switches? Routers?, Monitors?
If there is anyone out here whose forte is hardware and gets his/her high on tinkering with such stuff, then let me know and your inputs will be useful in optimizing our resources and checking compatibility..
I am building the desks keeping in mind LCD monitors, but i'm sure we may be able to fit in CRTs for the time being.
Can a couple of folks out here raise their hands and come up with a standardized list of software apps required so a disc can be cut and installed on the PCs that we build from scratch.
The machines will continue to be your property ofcourse.
Thanks abhishek
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On 15/10/06 08:42 -0700, Abhishek Daga wrote: <snip>
Whatever raw materials we select the machinery needs to be put together.
If you are trying to start a company, or put together a business plan, please take it offlist. You are going offtopic.
If you want to contribute to the application, there are multiple options to host your code. Discussion about hardware and space requirements is meaningless here.
As Kenneth has said, he has the core application ready, but needs a CA or two to help out.
Please choose your options and end this branch of thee thread.
Devdas Bhagat
--- Devdas Bhagat devdas@dvb.homelinux.org wrote:
On 15/10/06 08:42 -0700, Abhishek Daga wrote:
<snip> > Whatever raw materials we select the machinery needs to be put > together. > If you are trying to start a company, or put together a business plan, please take it offlist. You are going offtopic.
If you want to contribute to the application, there are multiple options to host your code. Discussion about hardware and space requirements is meaningless here.
Why is it irrelevant? The discussion is about getting the final product, which is an OSS -FA going. I dont think discussion about hardware and space and Business plan are meaningless, as taking it offline we may be excluding a large chunk of potential contributors who have not said anything yet but may do so when the right requirement comes along.
-Abhishek
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Sometime on Oct 15, AD cobbled together some glyphs to say:
Why is it irrelevant? The discussion is about getting the final product, which is an OSS -FA going. I dont think discussion about hardware and space and Business plan are meaningless, as taking it
It's meaningless on this list. These are the seeds of a new project, so go start that project. Post here when you need help getting people to work on it or test it.
Devdas,
Why is it irrelevant? The discussion is about getting the final product, which is an OSS -FA going. I dont think discussion about hardware and space and Business plan are meaningless, as taking it offline we may be excluding a large chunk of potential contributors who have not said anything yet but may do so when the right requirement comes along.
Well I didnt see any business plan happening yet, this thread is exactly equal to the thread which was discussing the Social Security ID kindof system, and which is addressing masses.
If you get offended by such mails then you can easily click and move them to trash.
There are more users who may want to look up in future via google cache of what is being getting discussed, so in future if they are searching for FA software, they exactly know and can contribute to the project.
More over, if such a system happens, then it shall benefit a large amount of users who are currently stuck to the competitor only coz there aint a easy to use and open source alternative yet.
Thanks & Regards, Mitul Limbani, Founder & CEO, Enterux Solutions, The Enterprise Linux Company (TM), www.enterux.com
I have a complete computer which happily run ubuntu linux and another that can also run it. but I have one computer out of them which runs oralux, which is a modified debian for my programming needs and suits our requirement too!it has 40 g hard disk, 128 mb ram amd duron 1 ghz processor. it has python running, gcc 4.1 (latest ) running, and emacs, vi, and all things needed to run a developer's machine. I offer this machine for our development. gentelmen, please contribute what you can. even a p3 128 mb machine can be sufficient for us. regards. Krishnakant.
--- krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
I have a complete computer which happily run ubuntu linux and another that can also run it.
As I said earlier, please contact me offlist for responses and potential contributions before more people get their knickers in a twist.
cheers abhishek
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Sometime on Oct 15, DJ cobbled together some glyphs to say:
So lets see, if I am a project manager and I want to make an app, what do I do?
- Get people to learn JS / HTML and XHTML and all possible w3
standards. 2. Get people to build an extensive infrastructure like GWT. 3. Make a Java / Python / Perl / C / <insert your favorite language here> to JS/HTML compiler. 4. Tweak it until it generates perfect output for all browsers ( including Lynx and what not ) 5. Then start with actually building the app that I had in mind.
or do i do away with the first 4 steps and start with the last one directly? Yes I would do exactly that.
So would I, but my development process would ensure that it works everywhere.
What is the need for the app to work in Lynx? People want to do some serious work so they give a damn about whether your code generates 100%
Do you hate blind people?
IMHO, it is not feasible for any project to survive or get completed if
I do it all the time.
you're going start by getting together a bunch of programmers who start developing the app by learning JS/HTML/XHTML. Unless you have JS / HTML
If you want to develop a web app, you need web developers. If you don't have web devs, don't make a web app.
experts, you'll have them pulling out their hair in no time while trying to get code that works well with all possible browsers out
No they won't. I know loads of developers who can make single web apps that work cross-browser.
There is a right way to do things and many wrong ways. Unfortunately, most developers just know one of the wrong ways.
On Monday 16 October 2006 04:53, Philip Tellis wrote:
So would I, but my development process would ensure that it works everywhere.
Ensuring it works in most browsers is ok but going overboard with it, isnt.
Do you hate blind people?
No I dont. I dont believe in one solution - fits all ideology.
I do it all the time.
Good for you :)
No they won't. I know loads of developers who can make single web apps that work cross-browser.
Then get them to join this project!
Lastly, I still feel that if this app is going to be web based then better use GWT or something better. It really doesnt make any sense reinventing the wheel.
On 17-Oct-06, at 10:50 PM, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
better use GWT or something better
i dont know if i mentioned it before - GWT is not foss
On Sunday 15 October 2006 18:43, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
BTW How is Tally's interface? I've never tried it myself. Is it console based?
Earlier versions were console. Everyone of the persons who do data entry (not just on tally) prefer console. their speeds exceed 60 wpm. Very often entering data before the new page is painted.
--- jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
On Sunday 15 October 2006 18:43, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
BTW How is Tally's interface? I've never tried it myself. Is it console based?
Earlier versions were console. Everyone of the persons who do data entry (not just on tally) prefer console. their speeds exceed 60 wpm.
Very often entering data before the new page is painted.
I am currently using an app written in c-tree and using the faircom DB over RH9.
Its got the retro look with its green characters and totally keyboard driven, and may seem primitive, but its amazing once you get a hang of the function keys and hot keys. Very similar to the DOS based foxpro systems. And we have to ssh or putty into the server.
Point being, its a great system even though it looks primitive, and if anyone is interested, I can give a demo and see if a UI like this one would gain easy acceptibility.
thanks abhi
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-- jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
On Sunday 15 October 2006 18:43, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
BTW How is Tally's interface? I've never tried it myself. Is it console based?
Earlier versions were console. Everyone of the persons who do data entry (not just on tally) prefer console. their speeds exceed 60 wpm.
Very often entering data before the new page is painted.
Also, if we can take away the requirement of X, then even kaccha limbu machines can be used to do meaningful work.
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On Monday 16 October 2006 22:45, Abhishek Daga wrote:
Earlier versions were console. Everyone of the persons who do data entry (not just on tally) prefer console. their speeds exceed 60 wpm.
Very often entering data before the new page is painted.
Also, if we can take away the requirement of X, then even kaccha limbu machines can be used to do meaningful work.
U would nt require X. However even the lowest end geode thinclients have a reasonable graphics engine.
--- jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
On Monday 16 October 2006 22:45, Abhishek Daga wrote:
Also, if we can take away the requirement of X, then even kaccha limbu machines can be used to do meaningful work.
U would nt require X. However even the lowest end geode thinclients have a reasonable graphics engine.
And the design specs should be such that it works at this lowest end reasonable graphics engine level.
Is that a feasible demand?
-Abhi
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On Tuesday 17 October 2006 13:27, Abhishek Daga wrote:
--- jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
On Monday 16 October 2006 22:45, Abhishek Daga wrote:
Also, if we can take away the requirement of X, then even kaccha limbu machines can be used to do meaningful work.
U would nt require X. However even the lowest end geode thinclients have a reasonable graphics engine.
And the design specs should be such that it works at this lowest end reasonable graphics engine level.
Is that a feasible demand?
Yes.
On Monday 16 October 2006 11:26, jtd wrote:
Earlier versions were console. Everyone of the persons who do data entry (not just on tally) prefer console. their speeds exceed 60 wpm. Very often entering data before the new page is painted.
Then why not go with a curses interface?
On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 05:22:06PM +0000, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Then why not go with a curses interface?
I'd just like to idly point out that an ncurses interfaces does not necessarily exclude a web-based architecture (look at lynx and links, for example). Lest anyone gets misled by the mention of console-based web browsers, I'd also like to point out that I am speaking of a stand-alone app that speaks something like SOAP or even plain old CGI to a web server.
Hmm, SOAP. Then you can have an ncurses interface, a web interface, a Java interface, GWT (whatever *that* is), pyGTK, yMom, MyAdobe, etc.
Sometime on Oct 17, S cobbled together some glyphs to say:
Hmm, SOAP. Then you can have an ncurses interface, a web interface, a Java interface, GWT (whatever *that* is), pyGTK, yMom, MyAdobe, etc.
SOAP is overkill for almost everything. REST is sufficient.
On Tuesday 17 October 2006 20:12, Satya wrote:
I'd just like to idly point out that an ncurses interfaces does not necessarily exclude a web-based architecture (look at lynx and links, for example). Lest anyone gets misled by the mention of console-based web browsers, I'd also like to point out that I am speaking of a stand-alone app that speaks something like SOAP or even plain old CGI to a web server.
Umm...even a local architecture would include a properly separated backend with maybe a plugin based frontend.
Hmm, SOAP. Then you can have an ncurses interface, a web interface, a Java interface, GWT (whatever *that* is), pyGTK, yMom, MyAdobe, etc.
Can we think a bit smaller at the moment? One frontend. A RAD methodology or a prototyping model. Get the app out quick and fast. Dont worry about the smaller details. They can always be added later on. Incremental lifecycle anyone? :)
Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:
Hi Everyone,
First, I am against the concept of cloning tally. Because tally is a very unsafe software. We refer to it as a "Time Bomb". I have explained this in the past on the group, but let me explain again.
Hi Saswata,
The tally alternative was suggested by the OP of this thread which is also related to the same. The target users were intended to be retailers and small businesses which are already using tally on windows. Will the system suggested by you and Kenneth serve these customers or is it only for high end corporate companies. Most retailers and traders use FA or QFA or Tally as their accounting package. May I also suggest that the final package should be a fully functioning package with front end gui included so we can freely and directly download and install it in the clients' machines and get them up and running without any tweaks or configuration.
Regards,
Rony. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
On 15-Oct-06, at 11:52 AM, Rony wrote:
The tally alternative was suggested by the OP of this thread which is also related to the same. The target users were intended to be retailers and small businesses which are already using tally on windows. Will the system suggested by you and Kenneth serve these customers or is it only for high end corporate companies. Most retailers and traders use FA or QFA or Tally as their accounting package. May I also suggest that the final package should be a fully functioning package with front end gui included so we can freely and directly download and install it in the clients' machines and get them up and running without any tweaks or configuration.
yes to all your questions
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
yes to all your questions
Did you receive the mail I had sent off list? If not, please let me know, I will re-send it to your mailbox.
Regards,
Rony. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
On 15-Oct-06, at 3:31 PM, Rony wrote:
Did you receive the mail I had sent off list? If not, please let me know, I will re-send it to your mailbox.
received it - will respond
On Sunday 15 October 2006 06:22, Rony wrote:
package. May I also suggest that the final package should be a fully functioning package with front end gui included so we can freely and directly download and install it in the clients' machines and get them up and running without any tweaks or configuration.
umm yeah. no sense in making it so flexible and customizable that the end user wastes more time in setting it up than actually using it.
Rony wrote:
Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:
Hi Everyone,
First, I am against the concept of cloning tally. Because tally is a very unsafe software. We refer to it as a "Time Bomb". I have explained this in the past on the group, but let me explain again.
Hi Saswata,
The tally alternative was suggested by the OP of this thread which is also related to the same. The target users were intended to be retailers and small businesses which are already using tally on windows.
Tally is good only for a small retailer who does his own accounting. The moment you have an accountant doing your accounts, tally is a disaster waiting to happen.
Will the system suggested by you and Kenneth serve these customers or is it only for high end corporate companies.
The accounting system can always be made simple. So long as the user (or the business owner) understands the benefit of a strict accounting system that does not allow you to insert restrospective entries, it will be ok.
Most retailers and traders use FA or QFA or Tally as their accounting package.
These are people who will stick to windows anyway. There will always be a set of users where it is not worth the efforts of educating them. But if they are NOT writing the accounting entries them selves, they will understand why tally is dangerous to their financial health.
May I also suggest that the final package should be a fully functioning package with front end gui included so we can freely and directly download and install it in the clients' machines and get them up and running without any tweaks or configuration.
I agree with this.
Regards,
Rony. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
On Saturday 14 October 2006 13:46, Rony wrote:
Thats great but is it alright to create an oss clone of tally, keeping in mind that users are looking for a tally replacement for linux? Is it legal?
Why not? GNU cloned the entire UNIX toolchain, utilities, everything. Think of this as a Free reimplementation rather than a clone :P
-
Abhishek Daga -
Anurag -
Baishampayan Ghose -
balwant singh -
Devdas Bhagat -
Dinesh Joshi -
jtd -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
krishnakant Mane -
Mitul Limbani -
Navneet Karnani -
Philip Tellis -
Rajen M. Parekh -
Rony -
Saswata Banerjee & Associates -
Satya