Hi All,
This is a proposal based on the idea 1st proposed by Rony and discussed on the list. This is very important and useful idea and we must develop this idea further by the FOSS process of collective wisdom.
Here is the out-line. I will put more info over a period of time.
Citizen Information System (CIS): A FOSS Model
Today India faces a serious challenge of identifying her citizens and her citizens have to struggle to establish their positive identities.
Due to the lack of unique and verified/verifiable citizen identity the State has to face the challenges of internal and external security, leakage in revenues and wasteful expenditures, improper and/or inappropriate planing for the welfare of her citizens.
At the same time, due to the lack of unique, verifiable an positive identity citizens have to cope with acquiring and managing and establishing his or her identity which leads to waste of valuable resources and seriously hampers his/her rights to enjoy the state welfare schemes and plans and impair him/her in carry out his/her duties.
An unique and verifiable identity can help the country in
- Securing her citizens for internal and external threats - Secure proper revenue collections and control expenditures - Can make the citizen welfare plans more effective - Can improve the law and order in the country - Can empower her citizens to enjoy their democratic rights and help Carry out their duties.
An unique and verifiable identity can help the citizens in
- Enjoying their constitutional and democratic rights - Empower them to fulfill their duties - Help them fully enjoy the ownership of movable and immovable properties - Reduction / elimination of harassment by various authorities - Improved state provided security - Better rewards from the country's citizen welfare plans
Considering the tremendous advantages of the Citizen Identification/Information System (CIS), I would like to propose a FOSS model for developing and implementing such a system.
In this paper I will propose and develop this idea in the FOSS spirit where people for all walks of life can participate in
- Formulating such an Open System - Discussing social, economical and legal aspect of the CIS - Discussing implementation and management aspects of the CIS - Discussing technological details of the CIS
Your feedback as usual is most welcome. With regards, -- --Dinesh Shah :-)
nice and a very practical idea. may be the government of india or state government can be approached for funds. I propose to support this from my team of developers. thanking all, Krishnakant.
Dear Mr. Mane,
On 8/29/06, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
nice and a very practical idea.
Thx...
may be the government of india or state government can be approached for funds.
I think that it's too early to seek any funding from gov. or any other org as of now. I intend to vrbilise the idea in more details, while I will continue to do over a period of time.
I propose to support this from my team of developers.
That will be indeed a great. When we come to technical implementation stage, we will really need all the developers we can get.
thanking all, Krishnakant.
With regards,
Hi Dinesh,
Quoting Dinesh Shah dineshah@gmail.com:
Citizen Information System (CIS): A FOSS Model
I have some contacts in National Informatics Center (NIC) which we can exploit, but before that we need to have a very sound model to promote. As per my last meet with competant guys over there in Delhi NIC, they were interested in funding some of the opensource initiatves pertaining to Indian Language processing on Open Source Databases.
Since you are going to Delhi, you might as well Jam up with Gora Mohanty and Raj Mathur, they might be able to throw some more light on the same.
Looking forward to help the community the best way i can,
Thanks & Regards, Mitul Limbani, Founder & CEO, Enterux Solutions, The Enterprise Linux Company (TM), www.enterux.com
On 8/29/06, Mitul Limbani mitul@enterux.com wrote:
I have some contacts in National Informatics Center (NIC) which we can exploit, but before that we need to have a very sound model to promote.
Speaking of which, how do we actually get people to use any such System? Do we give them SSNs like in the USA? Or will it be something a bit more (forgive the word) satanic like RFID chips or bar codes? DNA/fingerprint/retinal scan are possibilities too.
Basically, we need to implement it over a billion+ population. More than technology it is the mindset of the people that will be barriers to such technology (apocalypse anyone?). Also, we all know how easily people give out their SSN leading to identity theft as is evident in USA.
I think these hurdles towards such a system are much more serious than the technology itself. After all, even today every family in India does not have a ration card.
Siddhesh
hi sidesh, that's exactly my point. that's why I said get a manifesto out. technical specs can then come out easily. krishnakant.
On 29-Aug-06, at 3:40 AM, krishnakant Mane wrote:
hi sidesh, that's exactly my point. that's why I said get a manifesto out. technical specs can then come out easily.
you are welcome to put it up on this wiki:
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/code/wiki
Dear Mr. Mane,
On 8/29/06, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
hi sidesh, that's exactly my point. that's why I said get a manifesto out.
This is what i am planning to come out in next couple of days.
technical specs can then come out easily.
Right, once we know what we want then only we can draw tech specs. :-)
krishnakant.
With regards,
On 8/28/06, Siddhesh Poyarekar siddhesh.poyarekar@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/29/06, Mitul Limbani mitul@enterux.com wrote:
I have some contacts in National Informatics Center (NIC) which we can exploit, but before that we need to have a very sound model to promote.
Speaking of which, how do we actually get people to use any such System? Do we give them SSNs like in the USA? Or will it be something a bit more (forgive the word) satanic like RFID chips or bar codes? DNA/fingerprint/retinal scan are possibilities too.
DNA / fingerrprinting /retina scan etc are not very practical for several reasons . eg to let issue me a drivers license it will be quite expensive and time consuming to get a dna rep. other two can go bad
barcodes / rfids etc are just machine readable representation of numbers.
we need to design an algorithm to define each human being based on some person and demographical information.
on a lighter note the rate at which ppl are using cell phones we cud use cell nos too :) , hope no one lights a flame on my lighter note
Basically, we need to implement it over a billion+ population. More than technology it is the mindset of the people that will be barriers to such technology (apocalypse anyone?). Also, we all know how easily people give out their SSN leading to identity theft as is evident in USA.
i agree i have experrienced this several times no matter how good your technology is and how well can you automate things some people just prefer to do things by hand :)
On 8/29/06, Harsh Busa harsh.busa@gmail.com wrote:
we need to design an algorithm to define each human being based on some person and demographical information.
Actually my ration card example was for a reason. We could always use ration card numbers or PAN numbers for adults, but both have limited reach currently and again, it's no different from the SSN approach. To make this foolproof we need something that will not require user interaction. So instead of authentication by what user knows, we can authenticate by what the user has.
Imagine a couple of counters; one with a fingerprint reader and the other a form submission counter where you submit details similar to what you would for your ration card/passport. How fast can it process a single user? If it isn't very bad (say, 5 minutes per person) we can actually do this. It's reasonable if we can gather the data over the period of, say, two years.
Infact once that is done everything can be based on one's fingerprint, even bank accounts, criminal records, etc. Procedures for everything else will speed up.
The down side is that identity theft will be absolutely gory; someone cutting off a thumb to get through for example.
on a lighter note the rate at which ppl are using cell phones we cud use cell nos too :) , hope no one lights a flame on my lighter note
People change cellphone numbers every year ;)
i agree i have experrienced this several times no matter how good your technology is and how well can you automate things some people just prefer to do things by hand :)
Ohh tell me about it :P I spent valuable time trying to automate certain things for my mother's business and she simply doesn't use it. She prefers her diary and pen any time of the day :)
Siddhesh
Dear Siddhesh,
On 8/29/06, Siddhesh Poyarekar siddhesh.poyarekar@gmail.com wrote:
Actually my ration card example was for a reason. We could always use ration card numbers or PAN numbers for adults, but both have limited reach currently and again, it's no different from the SSN approach. To make this foolproof we need something that will not require user interaction. So instead of authentication by what user knows, we can authenticate by what the user has.
This is exactly the point we are trying to address.
1. There are too many IDs in existence. 2. There is no foolproof way of verifying/authenticating those IDs.
Imagine a couple of counters; one with a fingerprint reader and the other a form submission counter where you submit details similar to what you would for your ration card/passport. How fast can it process a single user? If it isn't very bad (say, 5 minutes per person) we can actually do this. It's reasonable if we can gather the data over the period of, say, two years.
It is too early to decide what will be the unique identifier and how to validate it.
I have few idea for much more simpler system. I will post those idea ASAP.
Infact once that is done everything can be based on one's fingerprint, even bank accounts, criminal records, etc. Procedures for everything else will speed up.
This purely depends on the universality and complexity of the system.
The down side is that identity theft will be absolutely gory; someone cutting off a thumb to get through for example.
This we can address in the security section of the manifesto.
Siddhesh
Thanks once again to all for point at the possible issues we may face as we go ahead. Keep your ideas coming. With regards,
Dear Harsh,
On 8/29/06, Harsh Busa harsh.busa@gmail.com wrote:
DNA / fingerrprinting /retina scan etc are not very practical for several reasons . eg to let issue me a drivers license it will be quite expensive and time consuming to get a dna rep. other two can go bad
You are bang on target. The whole thing should be very simple and at the same time extendable where it is possible to implement those expensive solutions because the situation warrants them. but at the same time they are not required all the time.
barcodes / rfids etc are just machine readable representation of numbers.
we need to design an algorithm to define each human being based on some person and demographical information.
I have following things in mind
1. An unique number (Format will be given later) - ID 2. Date of Birth 3. Place of Birth 4. Name of the biological mother (Orphens will be taken care of as special case) 5. Unique ID of the biological mother
Other optional info like
1. Name of the Father and other relations 2. Unique IDs of the Father and other relations 3. PIN Code of place of birth 4. Name and ID of Doctor/Nurse/Midwife
i agree i have experrienced this several times no matter how good your technology is and how well can you automate things some people just prefer to do things by hand :)
This is not going to be about the technology per say. But whole development can be done in FOSS style to ensure the transperancy, participation of diverse views and opinions and speed of the development and resilience of the model.
With regards,
On 8/29/06, Dinesh Shah dineshah@gmail.com wrote:
I have following things in mind
- An unique number (Format will be given later) - ID
- Date of Birth
- Place of Birth
- Name of the biological mother (Orphens will be taken care of as special case)
- Unique ID of the biological mother
Other optional info like
- Name of the Father and other relations
- Unique IDs of the Father and other relations
- PIN Code of place of birth
- Name and ID of Doctor/Nurse/Midwife
So you're treating this as a birth registration. So instead of thinking up a whole new system we can implement this as an improvement of the current birth registration system. This way we have much of the design in place and we will then need to tweak some things to suite us better. We could even call this as computerization of the current birth registration system.
This is not going to be about the technology per say. But whole development can be done in FOSS style to ensure the transperancy, participation of diverse views and opinions and speed of the development and resilience of the model.
True, but we do need something that requires minimal user intervention to protect them from temselves in many ways. And the FOSS way is definitely THE best way for such an effort because I guess there are going to be many "BIG BROTHER" concerns over this.
Regards, Siddhesh
PS: Thanks Rony for bringing this topic up in the first place. Sadly, his thread went completely out of context through no fault of his. Awaiting inputs from you too Rony.
Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
Awaiting inputs from you too Rony.
1. Take opinions of forensic experts on what are the unique characteristics of any individual that will remain true for a lifetime and what is the simplest way to record them in electronic format.
2. Take opinion of security experts on what are the different ways in which electronic data of individuals can be compromised or stolen.
3. Find out from electronics experts, the different ways that can be used to authenticate an individual so that even if the id is stolen, the body can't be stolen. "Yours is different from mine".
Regards,
Rony.
___________________________________________________________ Inbox full of spam? Get leading spam protection and 1GB storage with All New Yahoo! Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
Dear Rony,
On 8/30/06, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
- Take opinions of forensic experts on what are the unique
characteristics of any individual that will remain true for a lifetime and what is the simplest way to record them in electronic format.
There are many. To name a few, birthdate, place of birth, mother, finger print, DNA, birth marks, moles, blood group etc.
Many will required to be in combination with one or more.
- Take opinion of security experts on what are the different ways in
which electronic data of individuals can be compromised or stolen.
Best way to secure any info will be to keep it open (FOSS principle). :-)
- Find out from electronics experts, the different ways that can be
used to authenticate an individual so that even if the id is stolen, the body can't be stolen. "Yours is different from mine".
True.
Nice points. However, we are the experts here. :-) we are developing this idea of yours into a workable solution,
Since this is a public mailing list hopefully all of the above experts are already on the list or they will probably join soon. ;-)
With regards,
Hello Siddhesh,
On 8/29/06, Siddhesh Poyarekar siddhesh.poyarekar@gmail.com wrote:
So you're treating this as a birth registration. So instead of thinking up a whole new system we can implement this as an improvement of the current birth registration system. This way we have much of the design in place and we will then need to tweak some things to suite us better. We could even call this as computerization of the current birth registration system.
Your interpretation of the CIS is very simplistic. At this stage I am just proposing to collect the personal information which is simple to gather, it's unique (every one has just one biological mother right?) (on the second thought, what is the status of test tube babes and surrogate mothers?) and inherently secure. (Like who would like to keep his/her mother's name secret?).
Someone raised the public disclose of birthday stating that birthday/date is used for various verifications. But this is due to an assumption that birthday/date is a Private info. However, this info is already in public (you sure have friends with whom you share your birthday/date? :-) ). People give their birthday/date info on-line at many places. It is not really difficult to get some one's birthday/date.
To gather other unique info like digital photo, finger print, retina/iris pattern, DNA will be very expensive. However, they can be collected as and when required.
True, but we do need something that requires minimal user intervention to protect them from temselves in many ways. And the FOSS way is definitely THE best way for such an effort because I guess there are going to be many "BIG BROTHER" concerns over this.
I agree. How about every individual carrying a simple plastic card with basic info printed in human and machine readable format like either bar code or RFID?
This card will be very easy to manufacture and replace. The card can be manufactured in such a way to make it very difficult to make duplicates/fakes.
Regards, Siddhesh
PS: Thanks Rony for bringing this topic up in the first place. Sadly, his thread went completely out of context through no fault of his. Awaiting inputs from you too Rony.
Yes of course, this was originally Rony's idea. Now let us develop it in FOSS model so as to make it usable in practice.
With regards,
On Monday 04 September 2006 12:43 am, Dinesh Shah wrote:
Hello Siddhesh,
Your interpretation of the CIS is very simplistic. At this stage I am just proposing to collect the personal information which is simple to gather, it's unique (every one has just one biological mother right?) (on the second thought, what is the status of test tube babes and surrogate mothers?) and inherently secure. (Like who would like to keep his/her mother's name secret?).
Someone raised the public disclose of birthday stating that birthday/date is used for various verifications. But this is due to an assumption that birthday/date is a Private info. However, this info is already in public (you sure have friends with whom you share your birthday/date? :-) ). People give their birthday/date info on-line at many places. It is not really difficult to get some one's birthday/date.
To gather other unique info like digital photo, finger print, retina/iris pattern, DNA will be very expensive. However, they can be collected as and when required.
True, but we do need something that requires minimal user intervention to protect them from temselves in many ways. And the FOSS way is definitely THE best way for such an effort because I guess there are going to be many "BIG BROTHER" concerns over this.
I agree. How about every individual carrying a simple plastic card with basic info printed in human and machine readable format like either bar code or RFID?
This card will be very easy to manufacture and replace. The card can be manufactured in such a way to make it very difficult to make duplicates/fakes.
The highest security cards available are the ones using RSA in hardware. They are very widel used but are not cheap at all. Neither are all the other elements in the processing chain. Further the point of this card is to having confidential data stored on it allowing ready access. The system breaks all the while not because of the card but at various points in the chain which are completely clueless about security -e.g hospital mandated by the insurance agency.
If u are trying to create a unique verifiable id that does not need physical verification of the id there is no such thing. The minority who need to spoof an id can do so even when there is reasonable physical verification (credit card / phones). It is trivial to break a system with no physical verification at the point of issuing a service. And is primarily the requirement of governments wanting to extract their pound of flesh or service providers like banks / insurance trying to cut their exposure. At no point is it needed to provide government / public services.
If one is to make a reasonable model we will have to use methods that humans use to establish identity and then trust. We identify people by name + face and establish trust by their relatonship with other known trusted persons and by referalls. so photoid card with id number and database of related persons is all that is required. Database access and it's security is a problem, but that is a problem not related to identity.
Rgds JTD
Dinesh Shah wrote:
Someone raised the public disclose of birthday stating that birthday/date is used for various verifications. But this is due to an assumption that birthday/date is a Private info. However, this info is already in public (you sure have friends with whom you share your birthday/date? :-) ). People give their birthday/date info on-line at many places. It is not really difficult to get some one's birthday/date.
Hi Dinesh, may I add some thoughts, that user information is not what the user is `willing' to disclose but what the user can be identified with in case of an identity verification. This identity and its attributes has to remain unchangable or indestructible over a lifetime. Unless he goes in for plastic surgery like the tv serials.
To gather other unique info like digital photo, finger print, retina/iris pattern, DNA will be very expensive. However, they can be collected as and when required.
More than expense, if we are to use an attribute of an identity for electronic verification, it has to be immediately verifiable. DNA?
We could otherwise classify it into 2 parts. One that is an electronically verifiable one and will be entered into the secure id card and the Other will be a medical record like DNA, that exists on a secure central server as an additional data for more detailed investigation. The first part would be used for day to day transactions and the second part for criminal or other background investigations.
I agree. How about every individual carrying a simple plastic card with basic info printed in human and machine readable format like either bar code or RFID?
This card will be very easy to manufacture and replace. The card can be manufactured in such a way to make it very difficult to make duplicates/fakes.
Thats where you will need the `Something I have' and `something I can prove' formula. If an ID card is stolen/duplicated, the thief still cannot authenticate himself as he is not `him'. The only way is to kidnap the card holder and make him authenticate, like some cases where the thieves forced their victims to come to the unmanned ATM and withdraw cash. So if we have the authenticating mechanism in a secure ( Govt.) location, then this possibility is also ruled out. Access to important public buildings like railways, airports and other offices can use this dual authentication where the card owner has to swipe his card to verify it is original and electronically prove he is the guy in the card. This can eliminate the possibility of staff members hand in glove with criminals. A fake id will have no record on the system.
Regards,
Rony.
____________________________________________________
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Hi Harsh,
On 8/28/06, Harsh Busa harsh.busa@gmail.com wrote:
DNA / fingerrprinting /retina scan etc are not very practical for several reasons . eg to let issue me a drivers license it will be quite expensive and time consuming to get a dna rep. other two can go bad
Yes. you are bang of target. Make it too expensive/time consuming and no one will be interested.
barcodes / rfids etc are just machine readable representation of numbers.
Yes. We can use human and machine readable cards either using bar code/RFID which ever is simpler and cheap. ;-)
we need to design an algorithm to define each human being based on some person and demographical information.
This is what I proposed in my other mail. The demographic info that is public enough and easily recordable.
i agree i have experrienced this several times no matter how good your technology is and how well can you automate things some people just prefer to do things by hand :)
That's why we should use the KISS principle. We also have to remember the low literacy rates as of now.
Thx any way for your valuable inputs. With regards,
hello mr dinesh and Mitul, on the funding issue, Department of Science and Technology (DST) of the IT ministry can also be of some help when it comes to funding. I have a hard copy of the form available since I being a researcher from IIT am doing a joint venture on a talking system for blind people to scann and read books. DST is funding the project. and they do fund for the kind of project Mr. Dinesh suggested. regarding the resources of development we 3 and other interested people can meet (I am going to any ways meet Mr. dinesh for his seminar). We have to develop the manifesto and also get some technical specification out so that programmers etc willing to assist can know it very clear. thanking all, Krishnakant.
Hey Mitul,
On 8/29/06, Mitul Limbani mitul@enterux.com wrote:
Citizen Information System (CIS): A FOSS Model
I have some contacts in National Informatics Center (NIC) which we can exploit, but before that we need to have a very sound model to promote.
This will be great. If we can rope them in the discussions at the early stage, we can prevent many mistakes or wrong assumptions.
If you have their ID we can start marking a copy to them and solicit their opinions on the idea.
As per my last meet with competant guys over there in Delhi NIC, they were interested in funding some of the opensource initiatves pertaining to Indian Language processing on Open Source Databases.
This could be just one part of the big zigshow. Good that u have brought this point up. We will keep the internationalisation/localisation in mind during design/implementation phase.
Since you are going to Delhi, you might as well Jam up with Gora Mohanty and Raj Mathur, they might be able to throw some more light on the same.
I hope to. I have so far not heard from them about the acceptance of my paper.
Looking forward to help the community the best way i can,
Will look forward to your continued help and support.
Thanks & Regards, Mitul Limbani,
With regards,
Hello Guys,
So far this thread have generated very good interest and participation from many members of the GLUG, namely Krishnakant Mane, Mitul, Rony, Harsh, Sidhhesh Kenneth and Vivek (off list).
I would like to thank everyone for staying true to the topic and not generating OT traffic. :-) Also thanks everyone for on list and off list inputs and feedback given so far. I will highly appreciate continued interest and input as we progress developing this idea further.
Next step will be defining/verbalizing the charter/manifesto of the this complete exercise.
With regards,
On 30-Aug-06, at 12:04 AM, Dinesh Shah wrote:
So far this thread have generated very good interest and participation from many members of the GLUG, namely Krishnakant Mane, Mitul, Rony, Harsh, Sidhhesh Kenneth and Vivek (off list).
NRC-FOSS would be interested in funding/hosting this and providing access to govt resources/contacts. As already mentioned, the wiki and subversion repository is at your disposal
On 30-Aug-06, at 6:51 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
So far this thread have generated very good interest and participation from many members of the GLUG, namely Krishnakant Mane, Mitul, Rony, Harsh, Sidhhesh Kenneth and Vivek (off list).
NRC-FOSS would be interested in funding/hosting this and providing access to govt resources/contacts. As already mentioned, the wiki and subversion repository is at your disposal
sorry, that should read 'our disposal'
Dear Kenneth,
On 8/30/06, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
NRC-FOSS would be interested in funding/hosting this and providing access to govt resources/contacts. As already mentioned, the wiki and subversion repository is at your disposal
Thanks for the offer. Will use it when it's time to use those resources
Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS lawgon@au-kbc.org
With regards,
yes the manifesto is some thing wich will set the tone of this project. by the way, even I feel that instead of getting into what is called as analysis paralysis, we just kick off the project with the kiss (Keep It Simple Stupid) mission statement just like what jtd suggested on another thread and keep provisions for advance ideas from the start although not going for those ideas right now. this should be the base for our manifesto. Krishnakant.
Dear Krishnakant,
On 9/4/06, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
yes the manifesto is some thing wich will set the tone of this project. by the way, even I feel that instead of getting into what is called as analysis paralysis, we just kick off the project with the kiss (Keep It Simple Stupid) mission statement just like what jtd suggested on another thread and keep provisions for advance ideas from the start although not going for those ideas right now. this should be the base for our manifesto.
I agree on this point. Give me a day or two to formulate a rough draft of manifesto for this project.
BTW, this topic is accepted by Delhi-GLUG for FreeDel. So we have to move fast on this as my submission deadline is approaching fast. :-)
Krishnakant.
With regards,
I agree on this point. Give me a day or two to formulate a rough draft of manifesto for this project.
yes, and I have a request. please gather all the emails from this thread and make a plane text document. if we have all the points it will be easy to work things out. and I am ready to give all assistance to you from my side as I have drafted many such proposals and manifestos before.
BTW, this topic is accepted by Delhi-GLUG for FreeDel. So we have to move fast on this as my submission deadline is approaching fast. :-)
hey that reminds me to post a great news for all you guys. I have got a call from our president, his exelency Dr. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam. actualy he happened to read my research paper on speach and tactile application in technology interfacing for visually handicap. he has called me on a 1 to 1 discussion in delhi for setting up a research institute which will be dedicated to do research and development in the field of handicap and rural people. he was quite happy that I being blind am in this field and as all know I am involved on a few research projects. I will also put this idea in front of him and see how he guides us for issues like funding and other resources. afterall this is also a national project if we take it seriousl. thanking all. Krishnakant.
On 28/08/06 19:03 +0000, Dinesh Shah wrote: <snip>
At the same time, due to the lack of unique, verifiable an positive identity citizens have to cope with acquiring and managing and establishing his or her identity which leads to waste of valuable
What are the failure modes of establishing such a public identifier? What damage can result in case of failure (for one or more persons)? What happens when the identifier is compromised or corrupted?
Will the identifier also be used as an authenticator? Or as a factor in authentication?
Will making this information public reveal any private information?
What happens when the data store containing such information is compromised? What factors would affect maintaining the integrity of such information?
Devdas Bhagat -- I am not a number.
Hi Devdas,
Thx for nice questions. Read on...
On 9/11/06, Devdas Bhagat devdas@dvb.homelinux.org wrote:
On 28/08/06 19:03 +0000, Dinesh Shah wrote:
<snip> > At the same time, due to the lack of unique, verifiable an positive > identity citizens have to cope with acquiring and managing and > establishing his or her identity which leads to waste of valuable
What are the failure modes of establishing such a public identifier?
1. Non-issue of ID. 2. Duplicate/Multiple IDs. 3. Wrong ID.
What damage can result in case of failure (for one or more persons)?
1. Denial of certain rights. 2. Denial of certain public/private resources. 3. Legal/Panel actions against responsible person(s).
What happens when the identifier is compromised or corrupted?
1. Re-issue in case of lose/corruption.
2. Legal/panel action(s) through audit trail - compromised in cases of forgery etc.
Will the identifier also be used as an authenticator? Or as a factor in authentication?
Yes. But the authentication will be separate process depending on the requirements of the security levels. So identifier will be one of the factors in the authentication process.
Will making this information public reveal any private information?
We have to decide beforehand what should be consider public and private information.
For me Public/Safe info is
Date of Birth Place of Birth Given Name Names of Mother/Father Current and Past Employers Educational records - degrees and certifications Criminal Records
Private info is
Bank balance ;-) Ownership of movable/immovable properties Creditworthiness ;-) Income and expenditure records Medical records
If you have different opinion on the above please let me know.
What happens when the data store containing such information is compromised?
I am thinking of distributed records keeping. All public info will be maintain by a an authority (shall we name it Citizen Information Authority - CIA :-D).
The private info will be maintain by respective authorities like your bank account info will be maintained by your bank and they will be responsible for protecting your records.
At the same time those records can be requested by other authorities like Judiciary, Police, Income Tax etc through the CIA after providing appropriate and sufficient reason(s).
What factors would affect maintaining the integrity of such information?
If we go the centralised way, then there is higher probability of compromise and misuse of the information.
Managing such large central database will pose a big management and maintenance and security challenge.
Devdas Bhagat
I am not a number.
You will be if the CIS succeeds. ;-)
Thanks for asking smart questions. Clarifies many things. :-) With regards,
On 11/09/06 20:32 +0530, Dinesh Shah wrote:
Hi Devdas,
Thx for nice questions. Read on...
On 9/11/06, Devdas Bhagat devdas@dvb.homelinux.org wrote:
On 28/08/06 19:03 +0000, Dinesh Shah wrote:
<snip> > At the same time, due to the lack of unique, verifiable an positive > identity citizens have to cope with acquiring and managing and > establishing his or her identity which leads to waste of valuable
What are the failure modes of establishing such a public identifier?
- Non-issue of ID.
- Duplicate/Multiple IDs.
- Wrong ID.
You aren't thinking maliciously enough.
What damage can result in case of failure (for one or more persons)?
- Denial of certain rights.
- Denial of certain public/private resources.
- Legal/Panel actions against responsible person(s).
You aren't thinking maliciously enough. I have an extremely appropriate idea here, but I would lose the debate via Godwin's law.
What happens when the identifier is compromised or corrupted?
Re-issue in case of lose/corruption.
Legal/panel action(s) through audit trail - compromised in cases of
forgery etc.
So all that I need to do is change the information in the database where this information is stored and make you into a terrorist?
Think really, really maliciously. History has a good set of examples of system failures. Those who do not learn from history ...
Will the identifier also be used as an authenticator? Or as a factor in authentication?
Yes. But the authentication will be separate process depending on the requirements of the security levels. So identifier will be one of the factors in the authentication process.
Will making this information public reveal any private information?
We have to decide beforehand what should be consider public and private information.
For me Public/Safe info is
Date of Birth Place of Birth Given Name Names of Mother/Father Current and Past Employers Educational records - degrees and certifications Criminal Records
Caste? Religion? Residential address? Passport number?
One number to bring them together and bind them in the land of Mordor, where the shadows lie?
Devdas Bhagat
Hi Devdas,
On 9/11/06, Devdas Bhagat devdas@dvb.homelinux.org wrote:
- Non-issue of ID.
- Duplicate/Multiple IDs.
- Wrong ID.
You aren't thinking maliciously enough.
Please, please, pleaaaaaaaaaase play devil's advocate. :-) Please think maliciously on my behalf. This will lead us to make this system more robust.
What damage can result in case of failure (for one or more persons)?
- Denial of certain rights.
- Denial of certain public/private resources.
- Legal/Panel actions against responsible person(s).
You aren't thinking maliciously enough. I have an extremely appropriate idea here, but I would lose the debate via Godwin's law.
Please go ahead. We are here to debate this issue. No one is going to lose any thing. :-)
What happens when the identifier is compromised or corrupted?
Re-issue in case of lose/corruption.
Legal/panel action(s) through audit trail - compromised in cases of
forgery etc.
So all that I need to do is change the information in the database where this information is stored and make you into a terrorist?
That's why keep those records disconnected and maitained by different authorities under same IDs. Any change at one place can creat sufficient audit trail for the perpetrator and/or the victim.
Think really, really maliciously. History has a good set of examples of system failures. Those who do not learn from history ...
Please site some examples. Makes things clearer. :-)
Date of Birth Place of Birth Given Name Names of Mother/Father Current and Past Employers Educational records - degrees and certifications Criminal Records
Caste? Religion? Residential address? Passport number?
Caste can be recorded were required. Religion? We are suppose to be a secular country. :-) Other two need not be public info.
One number to bring them together and bind them in the land of Mordor, where the shadows lie?
Ahhh... Why this always lead to fear of misuse by authorities or police state? Can we not make system which can not be easely taken over by Big Brother(s)? Or it's just wistful thinking?
Devdas Bhagat
I am now drafting a proposal. Your early inputs will help me make a better draft. So keep sharing your viewa and opinions.
With regards,
On Monday 11 September 2006 10:55 pm, Dinesh Shah wrote:
Hi Devdas,
On 9/11/06, Devdas Bhagat devdas@dvb.homelinux.org wrote:
- Non-issue of ID.
- Duplicate/Multiple IDs.
- Wrong ID.
You aren't thinking maliciously enough.
Please, please, pleaaaaaaaaaase play devil's advocate. :-) Please think maliciously on my behalf. This will lead us to make this system more robust.
Who are the issuers? where is the database residing? Who decides what is accessible and what isnt? What has caste, religion got to do with identity? Who has access to the audit trail?
On Tuesday 12 September 2006 12:49 pm, jtd wrote:
On Monday 11 September 2006 10:55 pm, Dinesh Shah wrote:
Hi Devdas,
On 9/11/06, Devdas Bhagat devdas@dvb.homelinux.org wrote:
- Non-issue of ID.
- Duplicate/Multiple IDs.
- Wrong ID.
You aren't thinking maliciously enough.
Please, please, pleaaaaaaaaaase play devil's advocate. :-) Please think maliciously on my behalf. This will lead us to make this system more robust.
Who are the issuers? where is the database residing? Who decides what is accessible and what isnt? What has caste, religion got to do with identity? Who has access to the audit trail?
Earlier attempts by all and sundry implementing id 1) Ration card - issuers were so corrupt, malicious, and incompetent that u could do whatever u please with the system - but ONLY thru a tout 2) Passport - an upmarket version of the above 3) Voter id card - the contractors were an ecelectic mix of the above 4) PAN GIR number 5) Domicile certificates 6) Caste certificates
The above issues are essentially administrative, but the proposed system must mandatorily have built in checks and audit trails which are publicly viewable - not by filing forms under thr RTI, but by just visiting a website. Without which it would be yet another drain on everybody's time and money. Fortunately none of the above are mandatory, which the present scheme proposes to do away with. The best part is no two government agencies accept the above as sufficient proof of id, creating their own little id cess pools.
Imo 1) publicly viewable audit trails 2) universal acceptance by ALL government and private agencies as the final and only essential proof of id 3) Ability to generate id at birth ie from primary health center
This will require the id to be DNA - other charcteristics are temporary and so riddled with holes it is pointless discussing - of primary member and parent (s). However big problem when one or both parents happen to be unknown / donors and when gene therapy might substantially modify the original dna.
More later.
Dear Terrence,
On 9/12/06, jtd <jtd at mtnl.net.in> wrote:
Who are the issuers?
We will call the issuing authority Citizen Information Authority - CIA. :-)
where is the database residing?
The database will be distributed across country and data will migrate vertically and horizontally.
Who decides what is accessible and what isnt?
All public info is accessible. What is public and what is private is what we are debating on.
What has caste, religion got to do with identity?
Nothing... I am against recording such info. But the Census department and other departments may gather this type of info for other purposes like reservations, demographic and social analysis.
Who has access to the audit trail?
Anybody authorised by CIA.
Earlier attempts by all and sundry implementing id
- Ration card - issuers were so corrupt, malicious, and incompetent
that u could do whatever u please with the system - but ONLY thru a tout
Your observations are largely correct. Not universal and have already lost the credibility.
- Passport - an upmarket version of the above
Very few have this document and it's costly and time consuming to acquire.
- Voter id card - the contractors were an ecelectic mix of the above
Well... Again there were and are problem with this ID is well and not universal. Only available to individuals above the age of 18 years.
- PAN GIR number
The number of people having this ID is a small percent of the population.
- Domicile certificates
Never heard about this one...
- Caste certificates
Isn't it part of Birth/Education record? Or it's separate document all to gather?
The above issues are essentially administrative, but the proposed system must mandatorily have built in checks and audit trails which are publicly viewable - not by filing forms under thr RTI, but by just visiting a website. Without which it would be yet another drain on everybody's time and money. Fortunately none of the above are mandatory, which the present scheme proposes to do away with. The best part is no two government agencies accept the above as sufficient proof of id, creating their own little id cess pools.
The idea behind CIS is to have universal and unique ID used and accepted by all Government and other Agencies.
During the transition period, CIS will co-exist with other IDs and within finite time frame all other non-essential IDs will be eliminated.
Imo
- publicly viewable audit trails
- universal acceptance by ALL government and private agencies as the
final and only essential proof of id 3) Ability to generate id at birth ie from primary health center
This is the 1st phase and 1st step of issuing the CIS. We have very healthy birth rate so all new citizens can start with this ID and along with him/her there relations starts getting the CIS IDs as well.
I see a time line of about 5 years to complete this. It would not be impossible to issue 200 million IDs per year.
This can be possible if we de-link issue of ID and verification/validation of the same. You can verify/validate ID at later stage may be at 1st use?
This will require the id to be DNA - other charcteristics are temporary and so riddled with holes it is pointless discussing - of primary member and parent (s). However big problem when one or both parents happen to be unknown / donors and when gene therapy might substantially modify the original dna.
To start with we can have simple data to be collected. More elaborate stuff can wait for later date.
More later.
Great... Keep the ideas flying.
Rgds JTD
With regards,
On Tuesday 12 September 2006 04:58 pm, Dinesh Shah wrote:
Dear Terrence,
We will call the issuing authority Citizen Information Authority - CIA. :-)
sheesh. I love the CIA u known. Endless entertainment u know.
Who decides what is accessible and what isnt?
All public info is accessible. What is public and what is private is what we are debating on.
Some conclusion will be arrived at on the public private score. But that is not the issue. The issue is who decides the access of the private data? it has to be the person to whom the id belongs to. If anyone else requires this data he has to be permitted by the id owner.
What has caste, religion got to do with identity?
Nothing... I am against recording such info. But the Census department and other departments may gather this type of info for other purposes like reservations, demographic and social analysis.
precisely what they should not be doing - framing policies based on religion and caste.
Who has access to the audit trail?
Anybody authorised by CIA.
Has to be every citizen rather than some babu autorizing someone. That way i check my data and it's (mis)use and you yours and so on. No third party freaking out on my data while fourth party sipping beer at Phuket.
- Domicile certificates
Never heard about this one...
If u live in state a and want a state job or admission in state b u need this afaik.
This can be possible if we de-link issue of ID and verification/validation of the same. You can verify/validate ID at later stage may be at 1st use?
Dangerous fallacy. without the esential of establishing relationship u are mandating verification for all 1 billion of us (+ 100 odd million visiting (permanently?) us).
To start with we can have simple data to be collected. More elaborate stuff can wait for later date.
The primary problem IS verification. Using DNA allows a "uniqe" individual print without the physical verification part. So if during initial id A masquerades as B and by implication is son of C. no problem cause C who is actually father of B will show up in the db on scrutiny. This is of course presuming that B is in the database or is alive and can be included in the db. One can still spoof by producing sombody els's dna but it would show up after some time even if spoofer was in cahoots with very many people. If there is no verification then the birth cert is good enough just computerise it and attach a taxonomy number and all wil be well with the world. There are social problems with dna printing - illegit kids, heridetory diseases (insurance), homosexuality, and genetic medical procedures. These have a very real potential of preventing it's acceptance.
Apart from the above academic excercise WHY do u require a unique computer traceableid? I dont see any reason at all. It will be misused by the power that be eg crooked st officer raises demand for huge sum payable by you to the state govt. then puts up notice to all travel services to prevent u from scurrying away.
What are the benefits? I dont see any that existing id methods do not fulfil completely. The ones who want such ids are the biggest duty shirkers in the first place eg credit rating agencies, assorted government depts..
Dinesh Shah wrote:
On 9/12/06, jtd wrote:
Who are the issuers?
- Passport - an upmarket version of the above
Very few have this document and it's costly and time consuming to acquire.
That is why it is still considered a valid proof of id by many Govt. and private organizations. PAN number is only an extension for economic data records. The details that we have to furnish to get a passport and the police verification are quite ok, except that we still have no system to verify the person's biological id.
So instead of starting from scratch, why not build a layer over the passport system that already has international validity, and have the passport authority as the National records keeper with properly defined responsibilities. That will save a lot of trouble. Passport has not spread due to its nature of being necessary for foreign travel only. If we make it compulsory for all, every one will be within range. The cost of procuring a passport is high because right now the persons who need it are going to be 'foreign returned'. That can change and the cost can be subsidized for poor people. I don't recollect but how much does it cost to get a PAN number?
Regards,
Rony.
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On Wednesday 13 September 2006 09:33 pm, Rony wrote:
Dinesh Shah wrote:
On 9/12/06, jtd wrote:
Who are the issuers?
- Passport - an upmarket version of the above
Very few have this document and it's costly and time consuming to acquire.
That is why it is still considered a valid proof of id by many Govt. and private organizations. PAN number is only an extension for economic data records. The details that we have to furnish to get a passport and the police verification are quite ok, except that we still have no system to verify the person's biological id.
There are many people with three different passports all issued by the Passport dept. However it is not as easy as 10 yrs ago and costs lacs compared to few thousand ten yrs ago. But u are very right about the verification being reasonable. However the verification process will become completely unmageable when mandated for everybody.
So instead of starting from scratch, why not build a layer over the passport system that already has international validity, and have the passport authority as the National records keeper with properly defined responsibilities. That will save a lot of trouble.
That will still not solve the id verification problem. But at least you have the essential framework (save verification ) in place.
The need for dna is to eliminate verification and automate the process. although the matching process is very compute intensive at the moment it will improve as knowledge & code and computing power increases. The drawing of relationships can be automatic thus spoofing becomes almost impossible even with complete abscence of physical verification. As usual though the corner cases pointed out earlier will be a big spanner in the works. 25 to 30% of kids have biological fathers different from their legal fathers according to a UK study. On second thought In our case it will only cause embarassment but should not in any way affect the verifiability and authenticity.
jtd wrote:
On Wednesday 13 September 2006 09:33 pm, Rony wrote:
So instead of starting from scratch, why not build a layer over the passport system that already has international validity, and have the passport authority as the National records keeper with properly defined responsibilities. That will save a lot of trouble.
That will still not solve the id verification problem. But at least you have the essential framework (save verification ) in place.
By verification, do you mean before issuing an ID or after that during its use for gaining access to facilities. Both are anyway possible. However we can have 2 levels of verification based on the security requirements, one fast for daily use, like latest photo, finger print... and one slow and detailed, like dna, blood test for criminal investigation purposes.
The need for dna is to eliminate verification and automate the process. although the matching process is very compute intensive at the moment it will improve as knowledge & code and computing power increases. The drawing of relationships can be automatic thus spoofing becomes almost impossible even with complete abscence of physical verification. As usual though the corner cases pointed out earlier will be a big spanner in the works. 25 to 30% of kids have biological fathers different from their legal fathers according to a UK study.
Instead of relating, can't a dna pattern be an independent id like a finger print?
On second thought In our case it will only cause embarassment but should not in any way affect the verifiability and authenticity.
Yeah. :)
Regards,
Rony.
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On Wednesday 13 September 2006 10:29 pm, Rony wrote:
By verification, do you mean before issuing an ID or after that during its use for gaining access to facilities.
Before issuing the id. All problems originate due to malcious registration. Which is why the cop goes to visit the place of residence, verify with the neighbours and check for criminal records. This verification itself depends on the fact that the user gas not used an alias before for criminal activities or now during registration. So the initial verification process is fraught with holes.
Both are anyway possible. However we can have 2 levels of verification based on the security requirements, one fast for daily use, like latest photo, finger print... and one slow and detailed, like dna, blood test for criminal investigation purposes.
The point of using DNA is that it is uniqe and is directly related to up and down stream. Thus traceability is automatic. There is no need for any detailed initial verification even during registration. This is because of the above characteristic of relatedness and ability to match raw dna data. For daily use just entering the id will automatically provide a relationship tree (like any other id system). A more detailed check wil re run a dna match with up and down stream members with the stored dna data (not possible with any other id system). If the person gives wrong info it will be apparent immediately. If the person is a criminal suspect, a resampling of dna will provide the detailed check neccessary. We are assuming that re / sampling is a simple process (which it isnt at the moment but will be in one to two years given the rate of innovation in biosensor tech).
Instead of relating, can't a dna pattern be an independent id like a finger print?
It is an independent pattern but the advantage is that it is related. So u cant claim to be me cause re samplin your dna will show that my parents dna are completely different from yours. In the case of siblings trying to masquerade things get more complicated - particularly with those who have no offspring. Incase of identical twins it will require sherlock holmes. But inspite of the corner cases DNA will outstrip by orders of magnitude any other id system. While initial costs will be high, recurring costs will fall to near zero due to it's relationship ability.
On 13-Sep-06, at 9:33 PM, Rony wrote:
That is why it is still considered a valid proof of id by many Govt. and private organizations. PAN number is only an extension for economic data records. The details that we have to furnish to get a passport and the police verification are quite ok, except that we still have no system to verify the person's biological id.
conventionaly when one writes an application, the client is consulted. In this case the client is the government - and unless the government accepts what is done, the project is a total waste. I would suggest we ask the govt what their thinking in the matter is before proceeding.
On Wednesday 13 September 2006 07:31 am, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
conventionaly when one writes an application, the client is consulted. In this case the client is the government - and unless the government accepts what is done, the project is a total waste. I would suggest we ask the govt what their thinking in the matter is before proceeding.
The nailability aspect would make it a hit with govt. revenue depts ;-). In any case this is just an academic excercise. I do not see anybody willingly exposing their dna (or anything else) for easing somebody else's job, while providing reams for the gossip columns.
On 13-Sep-06, at 1:52 PM, jtd wrote:
In any case this is just an academic excercise.
then ok - i was under the impression that someone was serious about writing the software for this
Hello Kenneth and Terrence,
On 9/13/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon at au-kbc.org> wrote:
On 13-Sep-06, at 1:52 PM, jtd wrote:
In any case this is just an academic excercise.
then ok - i was under the impression that someone was serious about writing the software for this
This is sure not an academic exercise.
We MUST design an Open Source Prototype for this and present it to the potential customer (Government of India?). The complete system should be practical and economically viable.
-- regards
Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS lawgon@au-kbc.org http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
With regards,
Dinesh Shah wrote:
This is sure not an academic exercise.
We MUST design an Open Source Prototype for this and present it to the potential customer (Government of India?). The complete system should be practical and economically viable.
True. With terrorism on the rise, it won't be too difficult to sell the idea to the Govt. Even the people are now more cooperative with increased security checks.
Regards,
Rony.
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On Thursday 14 September 2006 03:39 pm, Rony wrote:
Dinesh Shah wrote:
This is sure not an academic exercise.
We MUST design an Open Source Prototype for this and present it to the potential customer (Government of India?). The complete system should be practical and economically viable.
True. With terrorism on the rise, it won't be too difficult to sell the idea to the Govt.
Dont con your self. Terrorism has nothing to do with ids. And to be of any use at all u would require war zones to be implementing ids when all they are interested in is killing.
Even the people are now more cooperative with increased security checks.
As though anyone has an option. There was this farcical checking at Marine lines with cops collecting whatever they could from people carrying loads from the wholesale markets. Having a universal id system wont change the abv. U can verify that abc is abc not if abc is a terrorist or communist or M$ user.
Dear Kenneth,
On 9/13/06, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
conventionaly when one writes an application, the client is consulted. In this case the client is the government - and unless the government accepts what is done, the project is a total waste. I would suggest we ask the govt what their thinking in the matter is before proceeding.
You are right that the customer should be consulted. However, many times the customer may even do not know that they need such a solution or such a solution is possible. In many cases customer may not be aware of the existance of problem. ;-)
In such a case, the new idea should be formed and presented to the potential customer. The idea should be practical and vialble in all respect before it can be sold to the customer. :-D
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS lawgon@au-kbc.org http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
With regards,
On 13-Sep-06, at 3:18 PM, Dinesh Shah wrote:
conventionaly when one writes an application, the client is consulted. In this case the client is the government - and unless the government accepts what is done, the project is a total waste. I would suggest we ask the govt what their thinking in the matter is before proceeding.
You are right that the customer should be consulted. However, many times the customer may even do not know that they need such a solution or such a solution is possible. In many cases customer may not be aware of the existance of problem. ;-)
In such a case, the new idea should be formed and presented to the potential customer. The idea should be practical and vialble in all respect before it can be sold to the customer. :-D
there is the OneIndia project where the central govt is discussing this. I you are serious about doing anything and actualy selling the foss solution to the govt, it is imperative to keep in sync with those discussions. And representing a limb of the said govt, i can help out there, but only if the commitment to do something is there. So far, i dont even see a wiki page emerging although I have offered space. And if you want to talk to the goverrnment what better place to point to than a wiki run by a FOSS project of the govt?
Dear Kenneth,
On 9/13/06, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon at au-kbc.org> wrote:
there is the OneIndia project where the central govt is discussing this. I you are serious about doing anything and actualy selling the foss solution to the govt, it is imperative to keep in sync with those discussions.
Thx for bringing this to our notice. Can you give some on-line resources, where we can go and check what is happening out there? If you could help us get us in touch with them?
And representing a limb of the said govt, i can help out there, but only if the commitment to do something is there.
OK. :-) I will not take the bait. AFA the commitment goes, I am very serious about this.
So far, i dont even see a wiki page emerging although I have offered space. And if you want to talk to the goverrnment what better place to point to than a wiki run by a FOSS project of the govt?
True. So far I am unable to put my thoughts on Wiki. I will do it ASAP. You know I need to do lot of cleaning and structuring of the idea as I receive feedback from you guys.
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS lawgon@au-kbc.org http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
With regards,
On 13-Sep-06, at 3:49 PM, Dinesh Shah wrote:
True. So far I am unable to put my thoughts on Wiki. I will do it ASAP. You know I need to do lot of cleaning and structuring of the idea as I receive feedback from you guys.
just dump everything - we will help with the cleaning and structuring
On 13-Sep-06, at 4:25 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
True. So far I am unable to put my thoughts on Wiki. I will do it ASAP. You know I need to do lot of cleaning and structuring of the idea as I receive feedback from you guys.
just dump everything - we will help with the cleaning and structuring
unless you want to do it all by yourself and present a finished product - which is not the foss way. Commit early Commit often.
On Wednesday 13 September 2006 03:18 pm, Dinesh Shah wrote:
Dear Kenneth,
On 9/13/06, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
conventionaly when one writes an application, the client is consulted. In this case the client is the government - and unless the government accepts what is done, the project is a total waste. I would suggest we ask the govt what their thinking in the matter is before proceeding.
You are right that the customer should be consulted. However, many times the customer may even do not know that they need such a solution or such a solution is possible. In many cases customer may not be aware of the existance of problem. ;-)
What problem? The present id systems serve their limited purposes very well within the constraints of cost, infrastructure and usability. Problems are purely due to issuer / verifier not doing their job. Where is the problem defined and what is the rationale for a universal id system.
In such a case, the new idea should be formed and presented to the potential customer. The idea should be practical and vialble in all respect before it can be sold to the customer. :-D
That in plain language means hobby (not even acdemic). If someone has the wherewithal to actually use the system they will. If someone has the inclination they will write code. Ofcourse if someone is footing the bill it will be termed Major Project and will be launched at Grand Maratha or some such fancy place.
On 9/12/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
However big problem when one or both parents happen to be unknown / donors and when gene therapy might substantially modify the original dna.
DNA fingerprinting is done based on the unique repeats in the micro-satelite region of the DNA, and AFAIK(with my four years of biotechnology..) gene therapy never touches a person's micro-satelite region..so DNA finger printing is still foolproof !! :) But in cases were there are identical twins..the genetic profile is same..so u need more data!!
On Wednesday 13 September 2006 07:56 pm, Harish S wrote:
On 9/12/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
However big problem when one or both parents happen to be unknown / donors and when gene therapy might substantially modify the original dna.
DNA fingerprinting is done based on the unique repeats in the micro-satelite region of the DNA, and AFAIK(with my four years of biotechnology..)
Great we have an expert right here and he prefers to keep quite for so long ;-) keep it coming maan.
gene therapy never touches a person's micro-satelite region..so DNA finger printing is still foolproof !! :) But in cases were there are identical twins..the genetic profile is same..so u need more data!!
Looks like we have a speaker for the coming meet ?
Some tips from Germany.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,435244,00.html
Regards,
Rony.
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Hi All,
Here is the presentation outline @ FreeDell
The Problem – Identity Crises
Multiplicity of Identifications Intimidating for Holder Variety of Identifications Waste of resources for issuer(s) Duplicity in Identification Leads to misuse, manipulation and fraud
The Problem – Identity Crises
Lack of Uniformity in Identification Leads to systemic failures Lack of Co-ordination between Authorities Error Prone and Time consuming Ease of Manipulation, misuse and Fraud Through Duplicates, Forged and unaudited Identifications
Why One More Identification?
Move towards Unification Move towards Universal Identification Re-validate existing Identifications Create Audit Trail and Consolidation Eliminate redundant Identification Secure against Manipulation and Frauds
CIS - The Charter
To be written
CIS - The Vision
To be written
CIS - The Possible Usage
Birth and Death Records Educational Records Health and Medical Records Property and Financial Records Employment and Relationship Records Legal, Judicial and Criminal Records Travel, Migration and Domicile Records
CIS - The Design Criteria
Should be Simple Should be Secure Should be Distributed Should be Open for Public Scrutiny Should be Hard to Manipulate and Subvert Should be Unique and Universal Should be Mandated by Law
The Implementation Process
Create Citizen Information Authority (CIA) Issue of CIS Identification Validation / Verification Authentication and Relationship Web Linking with Other Identifications Elimination of Duplicates and Forged Creating Audit Trail Plugging the Loopholes
CIS - Technology Selection
The System is Developed using FOSS Model The System will use Open Data Formats and Structures The System will use Open Access Methods and Protocols The System will use Open Storage and Retrieval Protocols and Standards The System will be low cost, easy to administer and maintain
CIS - Implementation
Simple Database Consist of (Mandatory) Unique Identification Number Unique Identification Number and Name of Mother Date and Place of Birth
Simple Database Consist of (Optional) Unique Identification Number and Name of Father Finger Prints / Other Birth Marks / Digital Photo Blood Group / DNA / Retina Pattern
Transition to CIS
Finite Transition Period of 5 Years Update Other Identifications with CIS Number Update all other Info Systems with CIS Purge Duplicates in other Identifications Removal of Duplicates in CIS Plug all Loopholes in CIS Eliminate other redundant Identifications
References
Website
Articles
Books and Papers
Contributers
ILUG, Mumbai Members Rony, Siddhesh Poyarekar, Krishnakant Mane, Devdas Bhagat, Harsh Busa, Vivek, Mitul Limbani, Kenneth Gonsalves and Terrence
FreeDel, Delhi Organizers for Providing Opportunity ILUG, Delhi for organizing the event Event Sponsors
Your ideas an inputs are most welcome. With regards,
hello Dinesh. nice documentation. very systematic to understand. now we must wait for a day or to for getting responses and then go ahead about planning this system. have you approached any finansial agency for funds? if yes what are the conditions? if no then we will have to do so after we actually have the project plan on the basis of the manifesto. Krishnakant.
Dinesh,
Quoting krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com:
hello Dinesh. nice documentation. very systematic to understand. now we must wait for a day or to for getting responses and then go ahead about planning this system. have you approached any finansial agency for funds? if yes what are the conditions? if no then we will have to do so after we actually have the project plan on the basis of the manifesto. Krishnakant.
Is this the same project that you going to discuss at FreeDel ? Also if you have created some public draft do post in out here :)
Thanks & Regards, Mitul Limbani, Founder & CEO, Enterux Solutions, The Enterprise Linux Company (TM), www.enterux.com
On 12-Sep-06, at 1:16 AM, Dinesh Shah wrote:
Contributers
ILUG, Mumbai Members Rony, Siddhesh Poyarekar, Krishnakant Mane, Devdas Bhagat, Harsh Busa, Vivek, Mitul Limbani, Kenneth Gonsalves and Terrence
sounds good, but one caveat, if it is a presentation of a proposal for a foss project, it should be done in the foss way - openly on a wiki/website. I have already offered the serrvices of our wiki for this:
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/code/wiki
you dont need to log in - just create a page/pages and put it up.
Dear Kenneth,
On 9/12/06, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
sounds good, but one caveat, if it is a presentation of a proposal for a foss project, it should be done in the foss way - openly on a wiki/website. I have already offered the serrvices of our wiki for this:
I will post the presentation there... The content was posted here yestereday in plain text format.
you dont need to log in - just create a page/pages and put it up.
Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS lawgon@au-kbc.org http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
With regards,
-
Devdas Bhagat -
Dinesh Shah -
Harish S -
Harsh Busa -
jtd -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
krishnakant Mane -
Mitul Limbani -
Rony -
Siddhesh Poyarekar