Hi people,
A few days ago my computer vendor came to me with some real problems regarding Linux. Hes a small time guy who supplies assembled PCs to individuals and maybe some small companies. Anyway, he owns an office and himself is pissed off with Microsoft's products as he has to format the machines every other day.
Another reason pushing him towards Linux is that hes now getting inquiries regarding installing Linux from home users. And Vista cracks are not yet stable and widely available :P After having a small chat with him, I got his requirements.
For office use, he requires:
1. Microsoft Office - docs and excel spreadsheets 2. Internet Explorer - surfing / banking etc.. 3. Tally - accounting
Now, I'm aware that he has the following alternatives:
1. Open office 2. Firefox 3. Tally ( Linux version )
But the problem with Open Office:
1. With average machines, it performs slow 2. The documents it generates are not 100% compatible with Ms.Office 3. Advanced features are not completely compatible
But they need to inter-operate with the rest of the world which means a good compatibility is important.
Another problems that one generally faces is that Linux doesn't always work out of the box. When it does, it works wonderfully well but when it comes down to tweaking it to get it to work, its like performing a brain surgery ( for a newbie ).
One more issue that I perceive is that distros don't always have good hardware compatibility. Let me explain it in more detail. Ubuntu 6.06 worked well on my friend's machine. No issues. But Ubuntu 7.04 refuses to work on the same machine. Some driver compatibility issues.
The other issue that people in India generally face is of bandwidth. Ubuntu installs well. It impresses them. But then it runs up HUGE bills downloading softwares.
What are your thoughts on this? How can we work with these people to effective push Linux into homes and offices? This definitely is one of the best ways of boosting Linux user base :)
Hi,
My thoughts below:
On 7/30/07, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
- The documents it generates are not 100% compatible with Ms.Office
OpenOffice 2.0 does provide good compatibility. Again, it is the work of good reverse engineering. Compatibility is a problem on micro$oft's side. They _never_ comply with standards.
But they need to inter-operate with the rest of the world which means a good compatibility is important.
Rest of the world? micro$oft office is not a free/open standard.
The other issue that people in India generally face is of bandwidth. Ubuntu installs well.
Use Debian with 3 DVDs?
It impresses them. But then it runs up HUGE bills downloading softwares.
Why blame the software if ISPs restrict downloads/uploads, and if the end-user chooses such a plan?
How can we work with these people to effective push Linux into homes and offices?
Ask them to post queries to this mailing list?
On 7/30/07, Shakthi Kannan shakthimaan@gmail.com wrote:
Use Debian with 3 DVDs?
A query. What percentage of typical machines have a DVD drive?
Regards, Mohan S N
On 7/30/07, Shakthi Kannan wrote:
OpenOffice 2.0 does provide good compatibility. Again, it is the work of good reverse engineering. Compatibility is a problem on micro$oft's side. They _never_ comply with standards.
Yes but we have to agree to the fact that 90% of the world use their software ( pirated or licensed ). You can't keep on playing the blame game. These people use whatever works and is compatible. They dont want to get into the standards war or the FOSS vs Proprietary war.
Use Debian with 3 DVDs?
Debian needs a lot of customization and plus its very difficult to start off for a newbie.
Why blame the software if ISPs restrict downloads/uploads, and if the end-user chooses such a plan?
Again we can't play the blame game here. Plus everyone doesn't have fast downloads. For example, if someone wants to install OpenOffice in Ubuntu, it'll take a very long time to download and install it on a 256Kbps /stable/ connection.
Ask them to post queries to this mailing list?
Umm...they are not that tech savvy plus they want quick resolutions.
On 7/30/07, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
The other issue that people in India generally face is of bandwidth. Ubuntu installs well. It impresses them. But then it runs up HUGE bills downloading softwares.
Find out the typically used software and generate APT-on-CDs. The vendor should be able to get this done with some help.
My Rs. 0.02
Regards, Mohan S N
On 7/30/07, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
- With average machines, it performs slow
It is slower than Office 2000 but definitely faster than Office XP.
- The documents it generates are not 100% compatible with Ms.Office
I'm yet to come across a .doc file Openoffice.org produced that MS word had a problem interpreting. There have been a couple of cases vice-versa, but not too many to be bothered about at all. I'm saying that confidently because my mother transacts about 25-30 word and excel documents with her clients daily.
Either ways, introduce him to PDF and he'll soon start circulating all his price sheets, etc in PDF -- PDFs look more official anyways ;)
Another problems that one generally faces is that Linux doesn't always work out of the box. When it does, it works wonderfully well but when it comes down to tweaking it to get it to work, its like performing a brain surgery ( for a newbie ).
This is probably one of the more tricky problems. He'll have to refer to (or maintain) a hardware compatibility list to make sure he sells only that hardware which installs without problems on Linux.
The other issue that people in India generally face is of bandwidth. Ubuntu installs well. It impresses them. But then it runs up HUGE bills downloading softwares.
I guess you pay for it one way or the other ;)
On Monday 30 Jul 2007 20:35:33 Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
On 7/30/07, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
- With average machines, it performs slow
It is slower than Office 2000 but definitely faster than Office XP.
Benchmark?
On 7/31/07, Mrugesh Karnik mrugeshkarnik@gmail.com wrote:
It is slower than Office 2000 but definitely faster than Office XP.
Benchmark?
Why, my perception of course ;) Oh, and my family's perception as well... yeah I know it still doesn't qualify as a scientific reading ;)
Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Now, I'm aware that he has the following alternatives:
- Open office
- Firefox
- Tally ( Linux version )
Tally does not have a Linux version.
But the problem with Open Office:
- With average machines, it performs slow
- The documents it generates are not 100% compatible with Ms.Office
- Advanced features are not completely compatible
Generally advanced features are not used. I tried out OO for a client who needs to edit excel files with different colours for different cells and to his surprise and mine, it showed colours in OO too.
But they need to inter-operate with the rest of the world which means a good compatibility is important.
Should not be a major problem for general offices. The problem starts with pro softwares and their file formats like AutoCad, Photoshop, Corel Draw.
Another problems that one generally faces is that Linux doesn't always work out of the box. When it does, it works wonderfully well but when it comes down to tweaking it to get it to work, its like performing a brain surgery ( for a newbie ).
Bad BIOSes are a pain in the arse.
One more issue that I perceive is that distros don't always have good hardware compatibility. Let me explain it in more detail. Ubuntu 6.06 worked well on my friend's machine. No issues. But Ubuntu 7.04 refuses to work on the same machine. Some driver compatibility issues.
I noticed that where Debian clones did not work, RPM based distros worked quite well and they have full distributions.
The other issue that people in India generally face is of bandwidth. Ubuntu installs well. It impresses them. But then it runs up HUGE bills downloading softwares.
Again use full distros.
What are your thoughts on this? How can we work with these people to effective push Linux into homes and offices? This definitely is one of the best ways of boosting Linux user base :)
Some time back I had posted a link to TurboCash ( as an alternative to Tally ) which has now become libre and has VAT too. However It is currently on the Windows platform and is meant for US and UK. I had put up a suggestion about modifying it for India but no one is interested in contributing their time and effort for the same.
We also need some work done on AutoCad alternatives. That will push many architects towards Linux.
On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:53:41 +0530, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com said:
- Microsoft Office - docs and excel spreadsheets
I have found gnumeric to do a decent job with spreadsheets -- it even imports excel files.
- Internet Explorer - surfing / banking etc..
Firefox, as you say, should work.
- Tally - accounting
This is a weak spot.
Another problems that one generally faces is that Linux doesn't always work out of the box. When it does, it works wonderfully well but when it comes down to tweaking it to get it to work, its like performing a brain surgery ( for a newbie ).
I have found all my recent Etch installs to just work -- but I generally select my hardware based on compatibility.
manoj
--- Dinesh Joshi wrote:
But the problem with Open Office:
- With average machines, it performs slow
Average machines need to be defined here, with specifications.
- The documents it generates are not 100%
compatible with Ms.Office
True. Though, the solution could be using OpenOffice under Windows as well, that seems to be more difficult to achieve.
One more issue that I perceive is that distros don't always have good hardware compatibility. Let me explain it in more detail. Ubuntu 6.06 worked well on my friend's machine. No issues. But Ubuntu 7.04 refuses to work on the same machine. Some driver compatibility issues.
If the vendor sells Intel Hardware (processor, motherboad) it shouldn't be very difficult. There are rare cases of incompatible between different versions, with Intel Hardware, AFAIK.
The other issue that people in India generally face is of bandwidth. Ubuntu installs well. It impresses them. But then it runs up HUGE bills downloading softwares.
The best alternative I can think of, apart from Apt-ON CD, is installation with a DVD of that distribution. Sure, we don't know the percentage of homes / offices with DVD drives, but assembled computers _will_ have Combo drives (CDRW plus DVD-ROM) or even DVD+-RW drives in them, because the vendor (could) insist on having one. Yikes! people would buy illegally copied movie DVDs, though.
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Hi Dinesh,
For office use, he requires:
- Microsoft Office - docs and excel spreadsheets
- Internet Explorer - surfing / banking etc..
- Tally - accounting
Now, I'm aware that he has the following alternatives:
- Open office
- Firefox
- Tally ( Linux version )
Am not sure tally linux version exists. If the replacement is immediate try tally on wine .
But the problem with Open Office:
- With average machines, it performs slow
- The documents it generates are not 100% compatible with Ms.Office
- Advanced features are not completely compatible
I will speak for the speed. Its the Ubuntu version of openoffice that is a slow arse. I have not tried digging into the offending patch. When I downloaded the rpms from openoffice, aliened them and installed it worked blazing even on my meagre laptop. Not to mention better fonts.
Compatibility _is_ a problem but only when there is really horrible formatting done via MS Office.
One more issue that I perceive is that distros don't always have good hardware compatibility. Let me explain it in more detail. Ubuntu 6.06 worked well on my friend's machine. No issues. But Ubuntu 7.04 refuses to work on the same machine. Some driver compatibility issues.
I agree on this one. 7.04 was a mistake more than anything else. I am yet to meet someone who has not had problem with 7.04. Having said that the alternatives are two fold - 1. 6.0.6 2. gutsy. This has worked for me and many others.
The other issue that people in India generally face is of bandwidth. Ubuntu installs well. It impresses them. But then it runs up HUGE bills downloading softwares.
apt on cd
regards, C
On 7/31/07, Chetan S cshring@gmail.com wrote:
One more issue that I perceive is that distros don't always have good hardware compatibility. Let me explain it in more detail. Ubuntu 6.06 worked well on my friend's machine. No issues. But Ubuntu 7.04 refuses to work on the same machine. Some driver compatibility issues.
I agree on this one. 7.04 was a mistake more than anything else. I am yet to meet someone who has not had problem with 7.04. Having said that the alternatives are two fold -
- 6.0.6
- gutsy. This has worked for me and many others.
I have to say this -- clear the thought of Debian being a geeks-only distro from your mind and give it a serious try. There is little difference between Debian and Ubuntu once it is installed. Here's a good comparison between the two (thanks to the getgnulinux.org thread):
http://polishlinux.org/choose/comparison/?distro1=Ubuntu&distro2=Debian
There's a little bit more to be invested in configuration (and almost none of it requires rocket science) on installation but the end result is a system that is much sleeker, faster and more stable overall.
On Tue, 2007-07-31 at 12:19 +0530, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
I have to say this -- clear the thought of Debian being a geeks-only distro from your mind and give it a serious try. There is little difference between Debian and Ubuntu once it is installed. Here's a
Look, for a person who has known the UNIX / Linux environment in his entire life, Debian is a nightmare. I'm not talking usagewise but I'm talking with reference to installation and maintenance.
--- Dinesh Joshi wrote:
I'm not talking usagewise but I'm talking with reference to installation and maintenance.
Isn't apt-get a part of Debian too? (or rather, apt-get was available in Debian first?) From my partial attempt of installation of Debian GNU/Linux, all I can say is that the process of installation is /apparently/ longer than most other distributions (using GUI installer). I hope, the other half that I didn't touch, isn't too difficult to install.
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On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 19:14 +0100, Roshan wrote:
Isn't apt-get a part of Debian too? (or rather, apt-get was available in Debian first?) From my partial attempt of installation of Debian GNU/Linux, all I can say is that the process of installation is /apparently/ longer than most other distributions (using GUI installer). I hope, the other half that I didn't touch, isn't too difficult to install.
Its not the question of longer. Try and understand the point I'm trying to make here. Most people dont know the difference between their harddisk and RAM. They're ignorant of these things. Vendors / Independent sellers might have a easier time learning these things but for a newbie root ( / ) is something that is buried under the ground and only trees have them...
On 8/1/07, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
Look, for a person who has known the UNIX / Linux environment in his entire life, Debian is a nightmare. I'm not talking usagewise but I'm talking with reference to installation and maintenance.
I think you meant to say "For a person who _hasn't_ know Unix/Linux..." because otherwise it doesn't make sense.
Your point would have made sense if you would have just stuck to initial installation. Installation is lengthier than other systems, but it is definitely not more difficult. It doesn't really ask for your monitor sync and refresh rates anymore (it did for my first time, with woody) so except for the fact that the installaer doesn't look pretty enough, none of it is _difficult_ per say.
Daily maintenance is as easy as Ubuntu, Roshan's already mentioned why. Actually, daily maintenance is unnecessary for a Linux based system (or, I would guess *BSD). You're not really updating your antivirus everyday or trying to defrag your HD are you?
On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 00:42 +0530, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
On 8/1/07, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Look, for a person who has known the UNIX / Linux environment in his entire life, Debian is a nightmare. I'm not talking usagewise but I'm talking with reference to installation and maintenance.
I think you meant to say "For a person who _hasn't_ know Unix/Linux..." because otherwise it doesn't make sense.
Yes, you're right, it was a typo :(
Your point would have made sense if you would have just stuck to initial installation. Installation is lengthier than other systems, but it is definitely not more difficult. It doesn't really ask for your monitor sync and refresh rates anymore (it did for my first time, with woody) so except for the fact that the installaer doesn't look pretty enough, none of it is _difficult_ per say.
Umm...yes I was talking not only about the initial installation but also all the terminologies that Linux uses. They are completely different from the Windoze world. Plus the post installation maintenance is sometimes difficult.
I'll pitch a very common problem. Sometimes it does happen that Ubuntu detects Windows partition but for some unknown reason it doesn't mount it. Now the solution is simple, for us. Edit /etc/fstab and make the right entries. But if you look at it from a newbie perspective, he'll need to know:
1. How to login as root 2. Know UNIX naming convention of block devices 3. Know the format of entries in /etc/fstab 4. How to make mount points ( i.e. creating directories ) 5. How to set permissions
This is a real world example.
On 8/2/07, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
Umm...yes I was talking not only about the initial installation but also all the terminologies that Linux uses. They are completely different from the Windoze world. Plus the post installation maintenance is sometimes difficult.
I think users who decide to install Linux on their systems do expect the fact that some things will be addressed differently.
Also, I think you mean to say "post installation customization" and not maintenance -- I've never had the need to defrag or refresh my antivirus (I don't have one actually). A few months back, I would have conceded to the fact that with debian unstable you should keep up with the upgrades that come out almost every other day, but not anymore. I just managed to go almost 2-3 months without doing an apt-get update (ok, I was obsessed with it ;) ) and didn't notice the difference.
I'll pitch a very common problem. Sometimes it does happen that Ubuntu detects Windows partition but for some unknown reason it doesn't mount it. Now the solution is simple, for us. Edit /etc/fstab and make the right entries. But if you look at it from a newbie perspective, he'll need to know:
I cannot comment on this since I haven't had a parallel windows installation for about 2 years now. But then, is this really _that_ common a problem as you're making it out to be? If yes then it's a reasonably big flaw.
On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 00:13 +0530, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
I think users who decide to install Linux on their systems do expect the fact that some things will be addressed differently.
True.
Also, I think you mean to say "post installation customization" and not maintenance -- I've never had the need to defrag or refresh my antivirus (I don't have one actually). A few months back, I would have conceded to the fact that with debian unstable you should keep up with the upgrades that come out almost every other day, but not anymore. I just managed to go almost 2-3 months without doing an apt-get update (ok, I was obsessed with it ;) ) and didn't notice the difference.
As we both know Linux filesystems dont need defragging or need any antivirus :P Anyway, the maintenance that I was talking about is tweaking stuff here and there. One real world problem that most people face with Linux is with high resolutions. My friend bought an LCD and when he installed Ubuntu, he couldn't get a resolution above 800x600. He had to manually edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf to get higher resolutions. And this *is* a common occurrence. Call it customization / tweaking / maintenance, its all the same to me.
Second problem that I have faced whilst using Linux as my desktop is that some HD videos weren't playing in any of the players - mplayer, xine, vlc etc... On windows the file was playing perfectly well. It took me a while to figure out the problem. I had to increase the memory buffer in xorg.conf. Once I did that, the files played perfectly :)
These are common problems. I dont install bleeding edge software on my system or experiment with a lot of hardware but I know for sure that there are many more such problems. The users or the vendors dont have the patience to solve such issues. They are not geeks.
I cannot comment on this since I haven't had a parallel windows installation for about 2 years now. But then, is this really _that_ common a problem as you're making it out to be? If yes then it's a reasonably big flaw.
Yes, when I distributed Ubuntu 6.06LTS CDs to my friends, a couple of them did face such issues.
On 8/3/07, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
tweaking stuff here and there. One real world problem that most people face with Linux is with high resolutions. My friend bought an LCD and when he installed Ubuntu, he couldn't get a resolution above 800x600. He had to manually edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf to get higher resolutions. And this *is* a common occurrence. Call it customization / tweaking / maintenance, its all the same to me.
It might be to you, but in the real world maintenance and customization mean two different things. The former is repetitive, while the latter is a one time job.
These are common problems. I dont install bleeding edge software on my system or experiment with a lot of hardware but I know for sure that there are many more such problems. The users or the vendors dont have the patience to solve such issues. They are not geeks.
Vendors ought to, not necessarily users -- it brings them business.
Dinesh Joshi wrote:
One real world problem that most people face with Linux is with high resolutions. My friend bought an LCD and when he installed Ubuntu, he couldn't get a resolution above 800x600. He had to manually edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf to get higher resolutions. And this *is* a common occurrence. Call it customization / tweaking / maintenance, its all the same to me.
Very true. Guys, lets have a dedicated session on xorg.conf and the games we can play with it.
One machine and a variety of monitors from old to new. Xorg experts in all shapes and sizes please respond. :)
On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 23:08:34 +0530, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com said:
On Tue, 2007-07-31 at 12:19 +0530, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
I have to say this -- clear the thought of Debian being a geeks-only distro from your mind and give it a serious try. There is little difference between Debian and Ubuntu once it is installed. Here's a
Look, for a person who has known the UNIX / Linux environment in his entire life, Debian is a nightmare. I'm not talking usagewise but I'm talking with reference to installation and maintenance.
Really? I just installed Debian on a new dell laptop. The installer allows me to have one boot partition; and the rest is encrypted. On the encrypted volume, the installer allowed me to configure LVM -- including a logical volume for swap. It discovered that I had a dell partition, a windows partition, and configured that into grub. The machine rebooted fine (decryption and all), and uses hibernate to suspend itself -- all within an hour or so.
It has the standard X setup, including nvidia non-free drivers, bind, emacs -- mostly using the chicken peck installation (hit enter until it stops asking you questions).
Apart from the download time, I barely paid any attention to the install (apart from partitioning the disk).
This is a standard dell precision m90 box, and so far, I have had to do _nothing_ special.
manoj
On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 15:24 -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
Apart from the download time, I barely paid any attention to theinstall (apart from partitioning the disk).
This is a standard dell precision m90 box, and so far, I havehad to do _nothing_ special.
Good for you :) But that is because you're a Linux user. I was talking about the average joe who hasn't ever used Linux.
Quoting Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com:
On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 15:24 -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
Apart from the download time, I barely paid any attention to theinstall (apart from partitioning the disk).
This is a standard dell precision m90 box, and so far, I havehad to do _nothing_ special.
Good for you :) But that is because you're a Linux user. I was talking about the average joe who hasn't ever used Linux.
he also happens to be a core debian devel
On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 12:16:26 +0530, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com said:
On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 15:24 -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
Apart from the download time, I barely paid any attention to the install (apart from partitioning the disk).
This is a standard dell precision m90 box, and so far, I have had to do _nothing_ special.
Good for you :) But that is because you're a Linux user. I was talking about the average joe who hasn't ever used Linux.
Ah. I thought you were talking about "a person who has known the UNIX / Linux environment in his entire life", which I see now was a typo.
In my experience, though, the joe user can't handle major sysadmin activity on a windows box either (installing, trouble shooting when things go wrong, setting up SMB shares, ...). In most cases, even for windows, they turn to a "knowledgeable" person.
manoj
On Monday 30 July 2007 19:53, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Hi people,
A few days ago my computer vendor came to me with some real problems regarding Linux. Hes a small time guy who supplies assembled PCs to individuals
But the problem with Open Office:
- With average machines, it performs slow
on a via c3 which is equivalent to a p4 cleron 1ghz with 256mb ram using sarge Oo works absolutely well. So your "average" machine must be horribly misconfigured. Common problem is assigning half the ram to video (which uses less than 8MB for most tasks).
- The documents it generates are not 100% compatible with
Ms.Office 3.
It will never be. So dont try and stop cribbing (in the sense we know the reasons and the impossibility of decoding binary blobs which even M$ is clueless about). Having said that i find everyone can read my Oo .doc. for good measure i send pdf and sxw and .doc AFTER a request from the rciever. Which gives me an opportunity to highilight the shortcomings in .doc.
Advanced features are not completely compatible
????
But they need to inter-operate with the rest of the world which means a good compatibility is important.
Read 1
Another problems that one generally faces is that Linux doesn't always work out of the box. When it does, it works wonderfully well but when it comes down to tweaking it to get it to work, its like performing a brain surgery ( for a newbie ).
Learning the ropes before foisting himself on customers is kinda essential for any business imnsho. No shortcuts here.
One more issue that I perceive is that distros don't always have good hardware compatibility. Let me explain it in more detail. Ubuntu 6.06 worked well on my friend's machine. No issues. But Ubuntu 7.04 refuses to work on the same machine. Some driver compatibility issues.
Read 2
The other issue that people in India generally face is of bandwidth. Ubuntu installs well. It impresses them. But then it runs up HUGE bills downloading softwares.
use DVDs. Copy the iso on the disk. Disk is cheap, besides being the norm with several laptop vendors with XP pre "installed". And if you total up the costs for all the AV updates im sure Ubuntu would seem miserly.
What are your thoughts on this? How can we work with these people to effective push Linux into homes and offices? This definitely is one of the best ways of boosting Linux user base :)
There are no simple answers and the home user desktop in the assembly segment has hughe number of issues where the only coherent biz strategy is seat of the pants. It makes sense only if the home user is also a small business and greatly values his data (lawyers, doctors). again here the gains are longterm and involves considerably short term switching resistance. These issues have been discussed over and over. The "horse n water" saying fits like a t. Unless your vendor is really trying to build and grow a business, it's just a matter of time before M$ sucks out whatever measly profits he makes from selling machines.
jtd wrote:
Unless your vendor is really trying to build and grow a business, it's just a matter of time before M$ sucks out whatever measly profits he makes from selling machines.
What will help is practical case reports on _small_ offices that have started doing all their M$ based tasks alternatively in Linux. Here is the list below.
1. Accounting in Tally. 2. Photoshop for image editing. Co-ordinating data files with customers and suppliers. 3. Corel Draw for image creation. Co-ordinating data files with customers and suppliers. 4. AutoCad for interior designers, furniture makers, architects. Co-ordinating data files with customers and suppliers. 5. 3D Max for animation. Co-ordinating data files with customers and suppliers.
It would be nice if some University in India creates a center for developing FOSS softwares for professional industry usage.
--- Rony wrote:
It would be nice if some University in India creates a center for developing FOSS softwares for professional industry usage.
There's /probably/ not enough _skilled_ manpower for such a task. Engineering students in Mumbai Univesity /could/ be at a better position to handle this, since they have something called as "Linux Laboratory" as an *infrastructure*.
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On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 16:43 +0100, Roshan wrote:
There's /probably/ not enough _skilled_ manpower for such a task. Engineering students in Mumbai Univesity /could/ be at a better position to handle this, since they have something called as "Linux Laboratory" as an *infrastructure*.
ROTFLMAO. I'm sorry but very few students in Indian universities have exposure, let alone the expertise to work on such projects. Besides the fact that they dont get any credit ( in terms of academic benefits ) for their work. They have to do this along with their regular academic activities!
Quoting Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk:
- Accounting in Tally.
- Photoshop for image editing. Co-ordinating data files with customers
and suppliers.
Gimp works for this
- Corel Draw for image creation. Co-ordinating data files with
customers and suppliers. 4. AutoCad for interior designers, furniture makers, architects. Co-ordinating data files with customers and suppliers. 5. 3D Max for animation. Co-ordinating data files with customers and suppliers.
Blender is a possibility here - only problem is that I am yet to find a single person in India who is competent in blender. Items 1,3 and 4 dont have a suitable foss equivalent. By 'suitable' I mean that unless the user in question has a strong commitment to foss and is determined to only use foss tools, the foss alternatives to these will not satisfy him.
On Wednesday 01 August 2007 20:58, Rony wrote:
jtd wrote:
Unless your vendor is really trying to build and grow a business, it's just a matter of time before M$ sucks out whatever measly profits he makes from selling machines.
What will help is practical case reports on _small_ offices that have started doing all their M$ based tasks alternatively in Linux. Here is the list below.
You are mixing different classes of desktops. the hardware for the graphics artist is completly different from that for the ca (or should be). Break down your market by user (ca, law firm, dtp, etc) and see what the requirements are. what we are trying to do is breakdown the market as much as possible because the strength of GNU/linux is customisation.
- Accounting in Tally.
- Photoshop for image editing. Co-ordinating data files with
customers and suppliers. 3. Corel Draw for image creation. Co-ordinating data files with customers and suppliers. 4. AutoCad for interior designers, furniture makers, architects. Co-ordinating data files with customers and suppliers. 5. 3D Max for animation. Co-ordinating data files with customers and suppliers.
jtd wrote:
On Wednesday 01 August 2007 20:58, Rony wrote:
What will help is practical case reports on _small_ offices that have started doing all their M$ based tasks alternatively in Linux. Here is the list below.
You are mixing different classes of desktops. the hardware for the graphics artist is completly different from that for the ca (or should be). Break down your market by user (ca, law firm, dtp, etc) and see what the requirements are. what we are trying to do is breakdown the market as much as possible because the strength of GNU/linux is customisation.
I haven't touched upon the hardware part. All I would like to know is actual case reports about small offices that were doing their work earlier in doze and later migrated everything to GNU/Linux.
The details I am looking for are.... softwares previously used in doze, file formats used for them, softwares used to do the same work in Linux, file formats used in Linux and how data was migrated from doze to Linux.
I am assuming that softwares used for GNU/Linux were ready ones that could be downloaded from the net.
On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 12:41 +0530, jtd wrote:
on a via c3 which is equivalent to a p4 cleron 1ghz with 256mb ram using sarge Oo works absolutely well. So your "average" machine must be horribly misconfigured. Common problem is assigning half the ram to video (which uses less than 8MB for most tasks).
Some times the software is to be blamed too you know? As Chetan S rightly pointed out Ubuntu's version of OOo worked slow.
It will never be. So dont try and stop cribbing (in the sense we know the reasons and the impossibility of decoding binary blobs which even M$ is clueless about).
Umm...the real issue is getting people USE our software. As I've already stated, people expect things to work. They are least interested in the MS vs FOSS wars or whatever issues we have with MS. So lets all concentrate on that rather than getting into useless debates?
Learning the ropes before foisting himself on customers is kinda essential for any business imnsho. No shortcuts here.
Yes, he'll be "foisting" himself. Thats why the inquiry with me, right?
There are no simple answers and the home user desktop in the assembly segment has hughe number of issues where the only coherent biz strategy is seat of the pants. It makes sense only if the home user is also a small business and greatly values his data (lawyers, doctors). again here the gains are longterm and involves considerably short term switching resistance.
There is a category of customers especially, small businesses whom he is working with that have grown tired of the loss in productivity due to constant virus / worm / malware infections. So, they're looking at Linux as a viable option.
Unless your vendor is really trying to build and grow a business, it's just a matter of time before M$ sucks out whatever measly profits he makes from selling machines.
Hes not trying to make money off it or build a business to compete with M$. Hes just trying fill a need that might be growing. Earlier Windows updates + Latest AV + Latest Antispyware would work. Now its not. So the option of Linux :)
On Wednesday 01 August 2007 23:34, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Some times the software is to be blamed too you know? As Chetan S rightly pointed out Ubuntu's version of OOo worked slow.
Indeed. But u cant take corner cases as a benchmark.
It will never be. So dont try and stop cribbing (in the sense we know the reasons and the impossibility of decoding binary blobs which even M$ is clueless about).
Umm...the real issue is getting people USE our software.
That issue is partially taken care of by the customer wanting GNU/Linux.
As I've already stated, people expect things to work.
So how do they like the thing that they already have biting their ass every 2nd day.
They are least interested in the MS vs FOSS wars or whatever issues we have with MS. So lets all concentrate on that rather than getting into useless debates?
We arent getting into useless debates. We are defining the boundaries within which u have to work and 100% compatibility is not on the cards for now and given M$ crooked ECMA games not likely ever.
Learning the ropes before foisting himself on customers is kinda essential for any business imnsho. No shortcuts here.
Yes, he'll be "foisting" himself. Thats why the inquiry with me, right?
Wrong. Are u taking the onus of his biz. Or is he going to make the effort to learn under your guidance. Either way no free lunch. It's going to cost someone.
There is a category of customers especially, small businesses whom he is working with that have grown tired of the loss in productivity due to constant virus / worm / malware infections. So, they're looking at Linux as a viable option.
That is a major +++.
Unless your vendor is really trying to build and grow a business, it's just a matter of time before M$ sucks out whatever measly profits he makes from selling machines.
Hes not trying to make money off it or build a business to compete with M$. Hes just trying fill a need that might be growing.
Which means he has to cater to some linux customers. If he is a one man show that is fine. If not he has to have let's say 1 engineer. That one engineer will do installations and customer support. In the initial phase lets say he handles fifteen Phone calls per day and maybe 1 visit. does your vendor have fifteen customers?. Is he willing to hire a technician for a much smaller customer base, and then push his marketing to fill he gap?. He is most likely to loose his tech to competition. Does he have a plan in mind.
Custome says i want abc after seeing the lates fad ad. Vendor runs to lamigton rd. buys the cheapest hardware junk n pirate cd and delivers to customer. That is a courier service not a computer vendor. No value addition no biz plan no investments. And the great miracle linux will deliver him new hope?
Ya. I know it sounds vicious. But that is the case with the small vendor. the only magic pill is his skill. GNU/Linux offers the opportunity to hone that skill and deliver value without spending lots of cash.
On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 11:22 +0530, jtd wrote:
Wrong. Are u taking the onus of his biz. Or is he going to make the effort to learn under your guidance. Either way no free lunch. It's going to cost someone.
Yes, it is going to cost someone. But he has taken an initiative and if this isn't an isolated case then there are many small time vendors that are going to try and "learn" Linux so that when their customers demand it, they'll be ready. Now they have also understood that the money is not in selling goods but actually providing their clients support and troubleshooting.
Ya. I know it sounds vicious. But that is the case with the small vendor. the only magic pill is his skill. GNU/Linux offers the opportunity to hone that skill and deliver value without spending lots of cash.
I have no idea what his plans are but I see this as an opportunity for Open Source supporters to spread Linux into small offices and homes. People are now actually looking for alternatives as M$ is too much of an headache for them!
On Thursday 02 August 2007 12:34, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Yes, it is going to cost someone. But he has taken an initiative
That is half the problem solved.
and if this isn't an isolated case then there are many small time vendors that are going to try and "learn" Linux so that when their customers demand it, they'll be ready. Now they have also understood that the money is not in selling goods but actually providing their clients support and troubleshooting.
Great. so wher is the problem?
I have no idea what his plans are but I see this as an opportunity for Open Source supporters to spread Linux into small offices and homes. People are now actually looking for alternatives as M$ is too much of an headache for them!
More training sessions for the small vendor? We have gone thru this many times since 99. a few desultory vendors show up expecting the magic wand. They completely fail to understand their situation and keep whining for this and that compatability with windows. Thay have got to understand that they are abandoning a sinking ship and they have to convince their customers too. There are added complications of the hardware software upgrad vicious circle which works to the vendors "benefit".
On Thursday 02 August 2007 15:49, jtd wrote:
On Thursday 02 August 2007 12:34, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
More training sessions for the small vendor?
replying to myself. We can most certainly do such sessions for want of anything better, but dont expect much out of that. And the negative spiel is just to put things in perspective so that something better than the above can come up.
Quoting jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in:
On Thursday 02 August 2007 15:49, jtd wrote:
On Thursday 02 August 2007 12:34, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
More training sessions for the small vendor?
replying to myself. We can most certainly do such sessions for want of anything better, but dont expect much out of that. And the negative spiel is just to put things in perspective so that something better than the above can come up.
i have suggested this before - and dont mind repeating myself. The best way to do this is conduct a big session in a star hotel with a fat registration fee, limited participants and concentrate on server setup - slipping in desktop stuff as an 'afterthought'. If you need a banner under which to hold this, NRC-FOSS is there - also to bear the expense. Any profit made would be available for LUG activities in the NRC-FOSS account. I am sure the LUG has sufficient big names to make the session attractive.
regards
KG
On Thursday 02 August 2007 19:15, lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
Quoting jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in:
On Thursday 02 August 2007 15:49, jtd wrote:
On Thursday 02 August 2007 12:34, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
More training sessions for the small vendor?
replying to myself. We can most certainly do such sessions for want of anything better, but dont expect much out of that. And the negative spiel is just to put things in perspective so that something better than the above can come up.
i have suggested this before - and dont mind repeating myself. The best way to do this is conduct a big session in a star hotel with a fat registration fee, limited participants and concentrate on server setup - slipping in desktop stuff as an 'afterthought'. If you need a banner under which to hold this, NRC-FOSS is there - also to bear the expense. Any profit made would be available for LUG activities in the NRC-FOSS account. I am sure the LUG has sufficient big names to make the session attractive.
I love that. Lay the marketing fat thick. For all we know it might actually work. And since we have already tried out the least cost route many times, we might as well try out the most cost route.
On 02-Aug-07, at 7:56 PM, jtd wrote:
i have suggested this before - and dont mind repeating myself. The best way to do this is conduct a big session in a star hotel with a fat registration fee, limited participants and concentrate on server setup - slipping in desktop stuff as an 'afterthought'. If you need a banner under which to hold this, NRC-FOSS is there - also to bear the expense. Any profit made would be available for LUG activities in the NRC-FOSS account. I am sure the LUG has sufficient big names to make the session attractive.
I love that. Lay the marketing fat thick. For all we know it might actually work. And since we have already tried out the least cost route many times, we might as well try out the most cost route.
so what syllabus do we have? Two aspects are needed - 1. server setup using linux (which is our USP) and 2. Desktop services that must be there for SME migration.
for no. 1:
Firewall server with multi isp balancing Mail server Quotas for disk space and bandwidth Monitoring bandwidth usage Security Clustering and farms Fileservers - Samba Asterix, VPN, VOIP
for no. 2:
Sound Printing FA ERP, CRM, etc Multimedia and graphics Wine?
Maybe if there is enough interest we could develop this syllabus on the wiki
On Friday 03 August 2007 10:23, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
so what syllabus do we have? Two aspects are needed - 1. server setup using linux (which is our USP) and 2. Desktop services that must be there for SME migration.
for no. 1:
Firewall server with multi isp balancing Mail server Quotas for disk space and bandwidth Monitoring bandwidth usage Security Clustering and farms Fileservers - Samba Asterix, VPN, VOIP
for no. 2:
Sound Printing FA ERP, CRM, etc Multimedia and graphics Wine?
Maybe if there is enough interest we could develop this syllabus on the wiki
Irrespective of interest lets put it up on wiki. HEHE we are actually doing something useful. DJ please note pointless discussion becoming useful :-)).
On Sat, 2007-08-04 at 10:11 +0530, jtd wrote:
Irrespective of interest lets put it up on wiki. HEHE we are actually doing something useful. DJ please note pointless discussion becoming useful :-)).
The whole discussion wasn't pointless. A pointless post in an useful discussion turned useful :P
On Saturday 04 August 2007 10:20, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Sat, 2007-08-04 at 10:11 +0530, jtd wrote:
Irrespective of interest lets put it up on wiki. HEHE we are actually doing something useful. DJ please note pointless discussion becoming useful :-)).
The whole discussion wasn't pointless. A pointless post in an useful discussion turned useful :P
HAHa.
Hi,
On 8/3/07, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
for no. 2:
Sound Printing FA ERP, CRM, etc Multimedia and graphics Wine?
For voip am not sure if ppl have come across this one -- wengophone. Its a nice one that works across a lot of platforms. Available www.openwengo.org
regards, C
lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
Quoting jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in:
On Thursday 02 August 2007 15:49, jtd wrote:
On Thursday 02 August 2007 12:34, Dinesh Joshi wrote: More training sessions for the small vendor?
replying to myself. We can most certainly do such sessions for want of anything better, but dont expect much out of that. And the negative spiel is just to put things in perspective so that something better than the above can come up.
i have suggested this before - and dont mind repeating myself. The best way to do this is conduct a big session in a star hotel with a fat registration fee, limited participants and concentrate on server setup - slipping in desktop stuff as an 'afterthought'. If you need a banner under which to hold this, NRC-FOSS is there - also to bear the expense. Any profit made would be available for LUG activities in the NRC-FOSS account. I am sure the LUG has sufficient big names to make the session attractive.
The need for training sessions on linux is no longer important as distros today are self explainatory and auto loading. We really need to look into the professional software segment and full scale activity in this sector is required. Installing a desktop is simple. Users don't want desktops. What will they do with a desktop? They want softwares that do their jobs. What is really stopping people from migrating is the actual absence of alternatives to some professional windows based softwares.
jtd wrote:
Custome says i want abc after seeing the lates fad ad. Vendor runs to lamigton rd. buys the cheapest hardware junk n pirate cd and delivers to customer. That is a courier service not a computer vendor. No value addition no biz plan no investments. And the great miracle linux will deliver him new hope?
Everyone is not like that.
Windows is not just install and use. It has to be customized and set up for the client according to his work environment. The same is true for GNU/Linux too. A good vendor understands the customer and sets up his system with loving care as if he were setting up a system for his own home. A good vendor has to educate the customer about software licenses. The hardware is not some low cost el cheapo stuff but one that is not only economical with good quality but also has better warranty backup.
On Thursday 02 August 2007 16:52, Rony wrote:
jtd wrote:
Custome says i want abc after seeing the lates fad ad. Vendor runs to lamigton rd. buys the cheapest hardware junk n pirate cd and delivers to customer. That is a courier service not a computer vendor. No value addition no biz plan no investments. And the great miracle linux will deliver him new hope?
Everyone is not like that.
The few honorable exceptions are already on the list ;-).
Windows is not just install and use. It has to be customized and set up for the client according to his work environment.
Ha Ha. The vast majority in the home /small business seg place their order with the friendly neighorhood Komputerman who knows as much about computers as a sardine. Never mind small biz. A number of multi location business are in the same boat. A number of large local state and central government bodies are similiarly placed.
But i agree with what u say.
hi dinesh, nice to see that people like you are encouraging the hardware venders to install linux and help common man get freedom and I don't mind if some one earns good livelyhood on free software, rather it is very good indeed. now for the problems you pointed out. 1. openoffice has almost no compatibility issue with .doc or .xls files but I wont recommend people to use .doc or .xls files because they are non standard files and really speaking may or may not carry macro based viruses and yes don't forget microsoft robbs information from your doc and excel files specially on windows. so I strongly recommend not to use .doc and .xls for confidential data. use either .rtf or pdf is the best choice and as one knows open office is one step ahead in this matter (generally free software is always one step ahead ), pdf files can be directly created from open office which is by no ways possible in m$ office. and I almost import more than 50 files a day from other people which are .doc and convert it to .odt for my personal use and .pdf for general public. I am yet to come across a doc file that did not work with openoffice and a few months back I did create doc files as well and never had problems with it too. but kindly don't use the doc format which is non standard and only used by microsoft for doing "chori " of your information because only they can decode your information and if you want to they will give you some api but you have to sine a non decleration contract and still not be sure that what you have is safe. secondly, apt-on cd is a wonderful tool so you can even carry mp3 codecs and g-streemer etc. I have a very good collection of codecs and other softwares on a cd which can be used by those who don't have good internet connection . I cam help you get freedom in your computing needs and make your life better if you want that cd. your next point is some thing tricky. let me give you an example. if I give you a mobile handset and say that only huch will work on this and no airtell will you buy such a phone? so if the hardware vender says "this can only run windows and not linux " don't buy it because I feel that this is a falty hardware. you see, hardware has to be software nutral. I will go one step further and say if some one says "this hardware only works good with linux and not windows " it is still a bad thing. I know this will never happen but I wanted to make my point clear. and by the way, if I have to buy hardware any ways and if my money will be shelled out any ways then why not buy an all compatible mobo and processor etc? I don't think I have to spend more money for a mobo that works with linux? if one costs 3500 for a motherboard I wont need to pay 350000 for having linux work on that? so friends if one needs to buy hardware or if you are selling hardware do go through the checklist for linux because I am sure the cost is not at all an issue here. this has been discussed by many people like roni time and time again so I wont start a thread for a new checklist *smile * but do read through the list frequently. and amongst all things letec is the best formatting and documenting tools I suppose no m$ office or open office for that matter can beat it. one can creat amaisingly beautiful pdf files and presentations, reports, books, and publications etc with letec. so that's another solution for the office work. regards, Krishnakant.
Quoting krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com:
your next point is some thing tricky. let me give you an example. if I give you a mobile handset and say that only huch will work on this and no airtell will you buy such a phone?
You do get such phones in the marked(called locked phones). These handsets are generally given for very nominal price. Such an arrangement works in favour of both customers and operators.
On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 02:51 +0530, krishnakant Mane wrote:
- openoffice has almost no compatibility issue with .doc or .xls
files but I wont recommend people to use .doc or .xls files because they are non standard files and really speaking may or may not carry
I'm talking about the formatting. It goes haywire when one works with docs generated by Ms.Word. It doesn't always happen but does happen often enough to irritate people.
.rtf or pdf is the best choice and as one knows open office is one
Is RTF = Rich Text Format?
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