Hello all,
I'm currently following my CCNA (Cisco certified network associate) course. I'm almost done with it. I want to support my networking course with some programming skills. Where to start from ?? I have been to NIIT & already checked with them about language course, they said "C" & "C++" will be covered in a period of 2 months.
I personally do not feel that 2-months time is sufficient for those two languages. Also, i keep reading about 'RUBY' & 'Python' and i gather that RUBY is much easy to learn for beginner like me.
So, any experts out there can please point me to any institute which offers courses in RUBY / Python ? Is there any pre-requisite for learning those languages (like familiarity with syntax of "C" or any other language for that matter) ??
Please note that i have already been to Eric Raymond's site and have read his opinion about programming.
Thank you,
Dumb.B0t.
On 21-Feb-07, at 2:39 AM, Sir Stupid wrote:
Please note that i have already been to Eric Raymond's site and have read his opinion about programming.
then python is for you. You dont need to be taught python as it can be learnt in half a day. if you are a newbie to programming, download 'how to think like a computer scientist' and go through it. Otherwise check out DiveIntoPython.
then python is for you. You dont need to be taught python as it can be learnt in half a day. if you are a newbie to programming, download 'how to think like a computer scientist' and go through it. Otherwise check out DiveIntoPython.
Very True, in fact while you are at it also check out Guido's tutorial on python.org, MIND BLOWINGLY simple and elegantly structured :-)
Regrads,
- vihan
On Wed, Feb 21, 2007 at 12:24:09PM +0530, Vihan Pandey wrote:
Very True, in fact while you are at it also check out Guido's tutorial on python.org, MIND BLOWINGLY simple and elegantly structured :-)
Not to mention the fact that Python comes with "batteries included", which implies that you can start doing interesting stuff without having to learn too much, unlike in C/C++.
Kumar
Sir Stupid wrote:
I personally do not feel that 2-months time is sufficient for those two languages. Also, i keep reading about 'RUBY' & 'Python' and i gather that RUBY is much easy to learn for beginner like me.
Python will be my suggestion. People without prior experience to programming languages like C can learn it in a fly without much confusion about too much of internal stuffs.
Read [1] which is a best way to start learning to program if you haven't done so.
For further reading/understanding/learning check out [2] and [3]
When you feel comfortable check [4] and try it out using Python.
So, any experts out there can please point me to any institute which offers courses in RUBY / Python ? Is there any pre-requisite for learning those languages (like familiarity with syntax of "C" or any other language for that matter) ??
Yes, Pre-requisite is 'Interest to sit, read, do stuffs and learn'
Please note that i have already been to Eric Raymond's site and have read his opinion about programming.
Learn something which your heart says you want to. Do not learn something because your friend did and got a job, or because some X Y Z suggested unless you are very similar to that X Y Z in your interests and capabilities. This doesn't mean do not follow or listen to what other's suggest, but do what you think interests you.
[1] http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy/
[2] http://www.diveintopython.org/
[3] http://www.python.org/doc/
On Wednesday 21 February 2007 12:41, Parthan wrote:
Python will be my suggestion. People without prior experience to programming languages like C can learn it in a fly without much confusion about too much of internal stuffs.
[1] http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy/
[2] http://www.diveintopython.org/
Thanks technofreak these links are very useful can you suggest some good links for ``php''
On 25-Feb-07, at 11:08 PM, abhishek wrote:
can you suggest some good links for ``php''
good+php - oxymoron
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On Monday 26 February 2007 01:02 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves cobbled together some glyphs to say:
can you suggest some good links for ``php''
good+php - oxymoron
PHP is really easy to start with, and thus many newbies / non-programmers build websites with PHP. That usually results in buggy / insecure code. But that doesn't mean PHP in itself is insecure. Think about Yahoo! when you think PHP is insecure or bad.
Regards, BG
- -- Baishampayan Ghose b.ghose@ubuntu.com Ubuntu -- Linux for Human Beings http://www.ubuntu.com/
1024D/86361B74 BB2C E244 15AD 05C5 523A 90E7 4249 3494 8636 1B74
On 26-Feb-07, at 1:20 PM, Vihan Pandey wrote:
good+php - oxymoron
Can you explain why?
that was a typo:
good+php == oxymoron
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 26-Feb-07, at 1:20 PM, Vihan Pandey wrote:
good+php - oxymoron
Can you explain why?
that was a typo:
good+php == oxymoron
Flickr anyone ? php is pretty good at what it is supposed to be doing. It never claimed to be a lisp, or even a C. So I am curious to know what are the reasons for your statement ?
quasi
----- Original Message ----- From: "quasi" quasilists@gmail.com
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
good+php == oxymoron
Flickr anyone ? php is pretty good at what it is supposed to be doing. It never claimed to be a lisp, or even a C. So I am curious to know what are the reasons for your statement ?
quasi
visit oxyscripts.com
Dinesh Kumar wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "quasi" quasilists@gmail.com
[snip]
Flickr anyone ? php is pretty good at what it is supposed to be doing. It never claimed to be a lisp, or even a C. So I am curious to know what are the reasons for your statement ?
quasi
visit oxyscripts.com
First : your point being ? Second : question was directed at KG's statement. Please, if you feel you must answer a thread then write something assuming that slow people like me can understand. Just posting links without any explanation(s) does not mean anything.
quasi
On 03-Mar-07, at 3:39 PM, quasi wrote:
Flickr anyone ? php is pretty good at what it is supposed to be doing. It never claimed to be a lisp, or even a C. So I am curious to know what are the reasons for your statement ?
quasi
visit oxyscripts.com
First : your point being ? Second : question was directed at KG's statement. Please, if you feel you must answer a thread then write something assuming that slow people like me can understand. Just posting links without any explanation(s) does not mean anything.
anyway, i am not saying you cant write good secure code in mysql - but you have to be a super hacker to do it ... and the vast majority of coders are not super hackers, so for the good of manking they should stick to safer languages
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 03-Mar-07, at 3:39 PM, quasi wrote:
Flickr anyone ? php is pretty good at what it is supposed to be doing. It never claimed to be a lisp, or even a C. So I am curious to know what are the reasons for your statement ?
quasi
visit oxyscripts.com
First : your point being ? Second : question was directed at KG's statement. Please, if you feel you must answer a thread then write something assuming that slow people like me can understand. Just posting links without any explanation(s) does not mean anything.
anyway, i am not saying you cant write good secure code in mysql - but you have to be a super hacker to do it ... and the vast majority of coders are not super hackers, so for the good of manking they should stick to safer languages
At the least show consistency in your FUD.. first you mudsling php and then suddenly you move to mysql?? Am pretty certain mysql (till version 5.x) continues to be a database not a coding language!!
I am not a programmer and do not even claim to be one, but one thing i know for sure being that it is not trivial to write secure code in *any* language.. you need to be a *super hacker* (read as: you need to know what you are doing) to write secure code in *any* language.
char annas, - dhawal
On 03-Mar-07, at 4:09 PM, Dhawal Doshy wrote:
At the least show consistency in your FUD.. first you mudsling php and then suddenly you move to mysql?? Am pretty certain mysql (till version 5.x) continues to be a database not a coding language!!
that was a typo, as i was discussing mysql in the previous mail in another list - which i have already explained
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 03-Mar-07, at 4:09 PM, Dhawal Doshy wrote:
At the least show consistency in your FUD.. first you mudsling php and then suddenly you move to mysql?? Am pretty certain mysql (till version 5.x) continues to be a database not a coding language!!
that was a typo, as i was discussing mysql in the previous mail in another list - which i have already explained
Irrespective of the typo, i hold the same view for your earlier statement, so it doesn't matter.
On 03-Mar-07, at 4:00 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
Flickr anyone ? php is pretty good at what it is supposed to be doing. It never claimed to be a lisp, or even a C. So I am curious to know what are the reasons for your statement ?
quasi
visit oxyscripts.com
First : your point being ? Second : question was directed at KG's statement. Please, if you feel you must answer a thread then write something assuming that slow people like me can understand. Just posting links without any explanation(s) does not mean anything.
anyway, i am not saying you cant write good secure code in mysql - but you have to be a super hacker to do it ... and the vast majority of coders are not super hackers, so for the good of manking they should stick to safer languages
oops s/msyql/php/ - although I hold the same view of mysql, so it doesnt matter
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 03-Mar-07, at 3:39 PM, quasi wrote:
Flickr anyone ? php is pretty good at what it is supposed to be doing. It never claimed to be a lisp, or even a C. So I am curious to know what are the reasons for your statement ?
quasi
visit oxyscripts.com
First : your point being ? Second : question was directed at KG's statement. Please, if you feel you must answer a thread then write something assuming that slow people like me can understand. Just posting links without any explanation(s) does not mean anything.
anyway, i am not saying you cant write good secure code in mysql - but you have to be a super hacker to do it ... and the vast majority of coders are not super hackers, so for the good of manking they should stick to safer languages
Firstly we were not talking about mysql - we were about php (I assume its a typo). Assuming someone is not smart is not a good idea. So statements like "good+php == oxymoron" are strong and inaccurate - they dont include "dumb" people in the context of that statement and may be misleading to the unsuspecting reader. People come here expecting some "learned" advice, not empty rhetoric. So in case you do have a point/opinion putting some explanation around such statements to clarify the context might just help.
Secondly if we all stuck to "safe" languages, we would not have had such a lot of software done in C. Or such a lot of software at all. Again safety and security are relative to the purpose of use.
php is good for certain uses and definitely *not* "good+php == oxymoron".
quasi
On 03-Mar-07, at 4:20 PM, quasi wrote:
People come here expecting some "learned" advice, not empty rhetoric. So in case you do have a point/opinion putting some explanation around such statements to clarify the context might just help.
ok - here we go, learned advice: the vast majority of php users are non-programmers who come to the language from the direction of html. Since they are non-programmers, they have never formally learnt to program. They treat php as glorified html. Questions of good practices, security etc are not entered into. Result is crappy code. If you can call it code. The good thing about php, and what it is intended to do, is to encourage non-programmers to get things done. To this end, in so far as it brings people into the foss world and gives them a taste of doing things themselves, php is an excellent tool. But not for learning a language or learning programming or learning best practices.
I have been taught, in programming web applications: 1. separate code from data 2. separate code from presentation in short: three layers: 1. database 2. business logic 3. presentation
the database must distrust the business logic and the presentation layer. The business logic layer must distrust the presentation layer. Or to put it crudely, dont put html in your code, dont put code in your html, dont put sql in your html etc etc etc. If you use python or perl with a proper templating language, you cant do these things. So 90% of your security problems are solved. In php you can do this. You can embed sql queries in your html pages and do all sorts of things - so how can you learn good practices? I try to train the programmers i get - and the ones who come from php background drive me crazy.
And i am no great hacker, just a part time enduser.
On 3/3/07, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
the database must distrust the business logic and the presentation layer. The business logic layer must distrust the presentation layer. Or to put it crudely, dont put html in your code, dont put code in your html, dont put sql in your html etc etc etc. If you use python or perl with a proper templating language, you cant do these things.
php mvc and pear help do something similar. i can write crappier code embedding html in perl too . i have seen several ppl do it.
--
On 03-Mar-07, at 5:13 PM, Harsh Busa wrote:
php mvc and pear help do something similar. i can write crappier code embedding html in perl too . i have seen several ppl do it.
thats not too bad. the bad thing is embedding perl in html, and there are one or two perl template engines around that approach that. I feel the best way of teaching good cgi programming is using postgres + python cgi + cheetah templating engine. Impossible to put code in cheetah templates. And when it is impossible to put code in the template/html, 90% of the battle is won. Whereas if it is at all possible - the battle is lost.
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 03-Mar-07, at 4:20 PM, quasi wrote:
People come here expecting some "learned" advice, not empty rhetoric. So in case you do have a point/opinion putting some explanation around such statements to clarify the context might just help.
ok - here we go, learned advice: the vast majority of php users are non-programmers who come to the language from the direction of html. Since they are non-programmers, they have never formally learnt to program. They treat php as glorified html. Questions of good practices, security etc are not entered into. Result is crappy code. If you can call it code. The good thing about php, and what it is intended to do, is to encourage non-programmers to get things done. To this end, in so far as it brings people into the foss world and gives them a taste of doing things themselves, php is an excellent tool. But not for learning a language or learning programming or learning best practices.
Lots of assumptions here. What you touched here is hardly anything about php but more about the quality of programmers you have interaction with. You cannot blame a tool if you cannot handle it or use it for the purpose it was designed for.
I have been taught, in programming web applications:
- separate code from data
- separate code from presentation
in short: three layers:
- database
- business logic
- presentation
the database must distrust the business logic and the presentation layer. The business logic layer must distrust the presentation layer. Or to put it crudely, dont put html in your code, dont put code in your html, dont put sql in your html etc etc etc. If you use python or perl with a proper templating language, you cant do these things. So 90% of your security problems are solved. In php you can do this. You can embed sql queries in your html pages and do all sorts of things - so how can you learn good practices? I try to train the programmers i get - and the ones who come from php background drive me crazy.
dig this. I can do inaccurate pointer manipulation in C. I can exceed array boundaries in C. So C sux right, by you logic ? It is funny how "safe" stuff and crappy programmers somehow end up together. And dont talk about perl etc. - you can do astounding and horrible things in perl (in different ways than you have elaborated above) depending on who is doing it.
More than it is difficult to do stuff right, it is damn easy to do stuff wrong.
And i am no great hacker, just a part time enduser.
wow.
quasi
On 03-Mar-07, at 5:35 PM, quasi wrote:
dig this. I can do inaccurate pointer manipulation in C. I can exceed array boundaries in C. So C sux right, by you logic ? It is funny how "safe" stuff and crappy programmers somehow end up together.
precisely my point. The vast majority of programmers in this country are crappy programmers - maybe due to the education system or maybe due to the climate. So how do you get good code out of them? certainly not by letting them loose to code in C or php (or java or perl, for that matter) - you do it by getting them to learn the safe languages like python or pascal. Then let the good ones go further into unknown territory. And then there would be less crappy code in the world.
Open source is all about getting non-professionals getting their hands dirty in delving into code. And this is not going to be productive as long as they are pointed to php, java, C, Visual Basic etc etc.
This advice is not meant, as I have said before, for high level hackers, it is advice for the general run of the mill 'crappy' programmer, who, if well versed in the disciplines enforced by safe languages, may turn out to be not-so-crappy. And that is why pascal was such an excellent teaching/beginners language, because it didnt have pointers at all - to do inaccurate pointer manipulation.
You may be fortunate enought to be in an environment where there are nothing but competent and excellent programmers - I, on the other hand, find it difficult to believe that there are very many such environments in this country. So i would say - avoid php, C and java like plague, try perl if you are comfortable with it - other wise stick to python or ruby.
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
precisely my point. The vast majority of programmers in this country are crappy programmers - maybe due to the education system or maybe due to the climate. So how do you get good code out of them?
The vast majority of $PROFESSION in *any* country are crappy $PROFESSION, (replace $PROFESSION with anything like cricketers, actors, lawyers, associates, sys-admins etc..) So how do you get good $ROLE (replace as related to $PROFESSION) out of them?
I am shocked at this discovery and co-incidence!!!
perl/php has its own place and so does ruby/python etc.. *your* thinking its crappy doesn't make it so.. if it was really crappy, there would be mass exodus from php to $CURRENT_BUZZWORD_PROGRAMMING_TOOL. php was designed for a simple reason and it does that bloody well (though now there are others that do it equally well or better). php doesn't claim to be the next $ENTERPRISE_PROGRAMMING_LANGUAGE. Also your argument of templates is equally applicable to php.
If *you* still think that you want to keep people away from php and stuff your 'point of view' down their throats.. then put in the effort to give proper reasons at the very first attempt rather than making random statements like "php+rndm=whatever".
- dhawal
On 03/03/07 19:32 +0530, Dhawal Doshy wrote: <snip>
perl/php has its own place and so does ruby/python etc.. *your* thinking its crappy doesn't make it so.. if it was really crappy, there would be mass exodus from php to $CURRENT_BUZZWORD_PROGRAMMING_TOOL. php was
PHP is the Visual Basic of the Unix world. I don't see all that many Windows programmers moving away from VB.
http://tnx.nl/php http://czth.net/pH/PHPSucks
Devdas Bhagat
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 03-Mar-07, at 5:35 PM, quasi wrote:
dig this. I can do inaccurate pointer manipulation in C. I can exceed array boundaries in C. So C sux right, by you logic ? It is funny how "safe" stuff and crappy programmers somehow end up together.
precisely my point. The vast majority of programmers in this country are crappy programmers - maybe due to the education system or maybe due to the climate. So how do you get good code out of them? certainly not by letting them loose to code in C or php (or java or perl, for that matter) - you do it by getting them to learn the safe languages like python or pascal. Then let the good ones go further into unknown territory. And then there would be less crappy code in the world.
dude. you are talking of business. not programming. This is a very nice way to go for you, maybe, but does in no way talk about php. Stop making claims about php. Instead, then talk about how you cannot use C / php / blah due to your association with crappy programmers. That would make sense - not "php+good==oxymoron".
Open source is all about getting non-professionals getting their hands dirty in delving into code. And this is not going to be productive as long as they are pointed to php, java, C, Visual Basic etc etc.
excuse me, I dont think so.
This advice is not meant, as I have said before, for high level hackers, it is advice for the general run of the mill 'crappy' programmer, who, if well versed in the disciplines enforced by safe languages, may turn out to be not-so-crappy. And that is why pascal was such an excellent teaching/beginners language, because it didnt have pointers at all - to do inaccurate pointer manipulation.
You may be fortunate enought to be in an environment where there are nothing but competent and excellent programmers - I, on the other hand, find it difficult to believe that there are very many such environments in this country. So i would say - avoid php, C and java like plague, try perl if you are comfortable with it - other wise stick to python or ruby.
Fantastic. Let's call this a "agreeably" resolved matter. Just dont forget to add this in front of your statements - "If you think you are a crappy programmer, then ... <KG's opinion regarding php|C|Java >"
:)
quasi
On 03-Mar-07, at 8:03 PM, quasi wrote:
Fantastic. Let's call this a "agreeably" resolved matter. Just dont forget to add this in front of your statements - "If you think you are a crappy programmer, then ... <KG's opinion regarding php|C| Java >"
i like that - but unfortunately crappy programmers dont think they are crappy programmers, so how to get the message across?
--- Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
unfortunately crappy programmers dont think they are crappy programmers, so how to get the message across?
A threshold value, in the number of elements of a set called as Bug = {'Bug Description 1', 'Bug Description 2', ...};
if the value is above threshold value, crappy programmer, else *_less crappy programmer_*.
However, Bug, need not be only one factor. A set of other factors may also be evaluated. :)
Probability, Statistics, Mathematics have a lot to offer for *coders*. They can code all day long!
-- FSF of India Associate Fellow http://www.gnu.org.in I love listening to FM radio!
__________________________________________________________ Yahoo! India Answers: Share what you know. Learn something new http://in.answers.yahoo.com/
On 04-Mar-07, at 1:07 PM, Roshan wrote:
A threshold value, in the number of elements of a set called as Bug = {'Bug Description 1', 'Bug Description 2', ...};
if the value is above threshold value, crappy programmer, else *_less crappy programmer_*.
i dont think the crappiness of a programmer is related to the number of bugs in his code. I know crappy progammers whose code is relatively bug free - but still crap. And have seen good code with lots of bugs - so uncrappiness of code depends on:
1. is it documented 2. is it properly commented 3. does it attempt to follow standards 4. can it be easily understood (this point doesnt apply to perl) 5. is it properly indented 6. are usecases and tests defined 7. can it be maintained, extended, upgraded, ported
if all these are there, it doesnt matter if it is full of bugs
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On Saturday 03 March 2007 18:10, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 03-Mar-07, at 5:35 PM, quasi wrote:
dig this. I can do inaccurate pointer manipulation in C. I can exceed array boundaries in C. So C sux right, by you logic ? It is funny how "safe" stuff and crappy programmers somehow end up together.
precisely my point. The vast majority of programmers in this country are crappy programmers - maybe due to the education system or maybe due to the climate. So how do you get good code out of them? certainly not by letting them loose to code in C or php (or java or perl, for that matter) - you do it by getting them to learn the safe languages like python or pascal. Then let the good ones go further into unknown territory. And then there would be less crappy code in the world.
That's so... wrong. You don't teach programmers safe programming languages, you teach them safe programming. You don't teach programmers decent indentation by forcing them to use a language that enforces indentation, you just teach them decent indentation. You don't teach programmers the MVC paradigm by forcing them to use systems that enforce MVC, you just keep hitting them over the head until they do MVC properly.
Open source is all about getting non-professionals getting their hands dirty in delving into code. And this is not going to be productive as long as they are pointed to php, java, C, Visual Basic etc etc.
Is there some reasoning behind that statement, or are you just saying that because you believe Python should be used for everything from navigating the space shuttle to wiping your behind after going to the toilet?
This advice is not meant, as I have said before, for high level hackers, it is advice for the general run of the mill 'crappy' programmer, who, if well versed in the disciplines enforced by safe languages, may turn out to be not-so-crappy. And that is why pascal was such an excellent teaching/beginners language, because it didnt have pointers at all - to do inaccurate pointer manipulation.
Once again, using language to enforce paradigms is a Bad Idea. Paradigms and techniques should be taught independent of language, otherwise programmers don't know right from wrong. Sure, they'll be great coders in the stilted and restricted language they have been taught, but put them in any other environment and they'll be worse than useless.
You may be fortunate enought to be in an environment where there are nothing but competent and excellent programmers - I, on the other hand, find it difficult to believe that there are very many such environments in this country. So i would say - avoid php, C and java like plague, try perl if you are comfortable with it - other wise stick to python or ruby.
I'd say learn secure programming and MVC, learn proper indentation, learn documentation and commenting. Of course, that doesn't mean that you start off with a language that was DESIGNED to break MVC, so PHP sucks anyway.
Regards,
- -- Raju - -- Raj Mathur       raju@kandalaya.org  http://kandalaya.org/     GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5  0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F            It is the mind that moves
On 03/03/07 22:09 +0530, Raj Mathur wrote:
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On Saturday 03 March 2007 18:10, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 03-Mar-07, at 5:35 PM, quasi wrote:
dig this. I can do inaccurate pointer manipulation in C. I can exceed array boundaries in C. So C sux right, by you logic ? It is funny how "safe" stuff and crappy programmers somehow end up together.
precisely my point. The vast majority of programmers in this country are crappy programmers - maybe due to the education system
Minor correction here: s/in this country//
Sturgeon's law applies to programmers as well.
or maybe due to the climate. So how do you get good code out of them? certainly not by letting them loose to code in C or php (or
You don't. You replace them with good programmers.
java or perl, for that matter) - you do it by getting them to learn the safe languages like python or pascal. Then let the good ones go further into unknown territory. And then there would be less crappy code in the world.
That's so... wrong. You don't teach programmers safe programming languages, you teach them safe programming. You don't teach
You do need to use a language which allows safe programming techniques. Things like, say, prepared statements.
programmers decent indentation by forcing them to use a language that enforces indentation, you just teach them decent indentation. You
8 space tabs!
Devdas Bhagat
On 03-Mar-07, at 10:30 PM, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
or maybe due to the climate. So how do you get good code out of them? certainly not by letting them loose to code in C or php (or
You don't. You replace them with good programmers.
from where?
programmers decent indentation by forcing them to use a language that enforces indentation, you just teach them decent indentation. You
8 space tabs!
4 space tabs
On 03-Mar-07, at 10:09 PM, Raj Mathur wrote:
That's so... wrong. You don't teach programmers safe programming languages, you teach them safe programming. You don't teach programmers decent indentation by forcing them to use a language that enforces indentation, you just teach them decent indentation. You don't teach programmers the MVC paradigm by forcing them to use systems that enforce MVC, you just keep hitting them over the head until they do MVC properly.
reminds me of an old story - a bunch of cats kept getting disturbed by a dog creeping up on them, so they decided to put implant a transmitter into the dog so they could get forewarning, but the problem was: who was going to implant the transmitter in the dog?. This is India. Who is going to teach them these things? College lecturers/professors? Maybe in foreign things like platform neutral/ vendor neutral syllabi work - because you have people to teach concepts instead of tools. Here we have people only capable of teaching tools - and platform neutral means following the path of least resistance ie doze, vb, dotnet. Which is why the the tool has to be prescribed. So use tools that force them to indent properly and force them to use systems that enforce MVC
Open source is all about getting non-professionals getting their hands dirty in delving into code. And this is not going to be productive as long as they are pointed to php, java, C, Visual Basic etc etc.
Is there some reasoning behind that statement, or are you just saying that because you believe Python should be used for everything from navigating the space shuttle to wiping your behind after going to the toilet?
where did the belief come from? experience. Incidently in India we we dont wipe, we wash with soap and water.
I'd say learn secure programming and MVC, learn proper indentation, learn documentation and commenting.
who is to teach it?
Of course, that doesn't mean that you start off with a language that was DESIGNED to break MVC, so PHP sucks anyway.
ahh
Raj Mathur wrote:
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On Saturday 03 March 2007 18:10, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 03-Mar-07, at 5:35 PM, quasi wrote:
dig this. I can do inaccurate pointer manipulation in C. I can exceed array boundaries in C. So C sux right, by you logic ? It is funny how "safe" stuff and crappy programmers somehow end up together.
precisely my point. The vast majority of programmers in this country are crappy programmers - maybe due to the education system or maybe due to the climate. So how do you get good code out of them? certainly not by letting them loose to code in C or php (or java or perl, for that matter) - you do it by getting them to learn the safe languages like python or pascal. Then let the good ones go further into unknown territory. And then there would be less crappy code in the world.
That's so... wrong. You don't teach programmers safe programming languages, you teach them safe programming. You don't teach programmers decent indentation by forcing them to use a language that enforces indentation, you just teach them decent indentation. You don't teach programmers the MVC paradigm by forcing them to use systems that enforce MVC, you just keep hitting them over the head until they do MVC properly.
Should new computer users start working directly on the internet and be a safety hazard to others? Or should they be taught the basics of computers first and then slowly introduced to internet? :)
On 04/03/07 14:00 +0530, Rony wrote: <snip>
Should new computer users start working directly on the internet and be a safety hazard to others? Or should they be taught the basics of computers first and then slowly introduced to internet? :)
New users aren't a problem. Clueless administrators are. Often they are overlapping populations.
Devdas Bhagat
On 04-Mar-07, at 2:00 PM, Rony wrote:
paradigm by forcing them to use systems that enforce MVC, you just keep hitting them over the head until they do MVC properly.
Should new computer users start working directly on the internet and be a safety hazard to others? Or should they be taught the basics of computers first and then slowly introduced to internet? :)
they are already on the internet - so the point is moot, unless you want to migrate to china
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 04-Mar-07, at 2:00 PM, Rony wrote:
paradigm by forcing them to use systems that enforce MVC, you just keep hitting them over the head until they do MVC properly.
Should new computer users start working directly on the internet and be a safety hazard to others? Or should they be taught the basics of computers first and then slowly introduced to internet? :)
they are already on the internet - so the point is moot, unless you want to migrate to china
When I setup new systems for clients, I don't rely on their knowledge of safe computing. I give them safe tools to use. They are told to avoid Internet Explorer and use Firefox as its more safe. Although IE can be used safely if one has learnt how to do so. The above example was meant to expand your point in the previous mail about introducing safer programming tools first then go for complex ones.
On 04-Mar-07, at 7:45 PM, Rony wrote:
On 04-Mar-07, at 2:00 PM, Rony wrote:
paradigm by forcing them to use systems that enforce MVC, you just keep hitting them over the head until they do MVC properly.
Should new computer users start working directly on the internet and be a safety hazard to others? Or should they be taught the basics of computers first and then slowly introduced to internet? :)
they are already on the internet - so the point is moot, unless you want to migrate to china
When I setup new systems for clients, I don't rely on their knowledge of safe computing. I give them safe tools to use. They are told to avoid Internet Explorer and use Firefox as its more safe. Although IE can be used safely if one has learnt how to do so. The above example was meant to expand your point in the previous mail about introducing safer programming tools first then go for complex ones.
rony, guys like you and me are in the minority, the majority believes in throwing the unwary to the wolves and appointing the survivors as the leaders
On 04-Mar-07, at 9:58 PM, Anant Narayanan wrote:
rony, guys like you and me are in the minority, the majority believes in throwing the unwary to the wolves and appointing the survivors as the leaders
Survival of the fittest, as they say :)
long live php
I have been taught, in programming web applications:
- separate code from data
- separate code from presentation
in short: three layers:
- database
- business logic
- presentation
Whoever said you couldn't do all that in PHP?
<snip>
with a proper templating language, you cant do these things. So 90% of your security problems are solved. In php you can do this. You can embed sql queries in your html pages and do all sorts of things - so how can you learn good practices? I try to train the programmers i get - and the ones who come from php background drive me crazy.
The fact that needles hurt people doesn't stop companies from manufacturing because they are *useful*. Just because PHP *allows* you to embed random pieces of HTML anywhere, doesn't mean you do it. There at-least a thousand frameworks and templating systems for PHP out there.
And I can think of certain cases where you might just want to, for example when you're making your "Personal Home Page" and you don't give a damn about things like MVC because you don't know how to program.
And NO, you don't need to a *super hacker* to write good PHP, you just need some common sense. I don't see why it is difficult to write good code in PHP; it's just like any other language.
On 03-Mar-07, at 9:59 PM, Anant Narayanan wrote:
And I can think of certain cases where you might just want to, for example when you're making your "Personal Home Page"
in fact the author of php says precisely this: 'php is for the weekend warrior'. (that is if Rasmus is the author)
On 2/26/07, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
that was a typo:
good+php == oxymoron
that expression will result in false value.
regards VK
On 3/6/07, vivek khurana mailing.vivek@gmail.com wrote:
On 2/26/07, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
that was a typo:
good+php == oxymoron
that expression will result in false value.
will give invalid lvalue error!
Karunakar
----- Original Message ----- From: "G Karunakar" indlinux@gmail.com
that was a typo:
good+php == oxymoron
that expression will result in false value.
will give invalid lvalue error!
Karunakar
data type mismatch...
Dinesh
abhishek wrote:
can you suggest some good links for ``php''
Good links for PHP ? Always the documentation and tutorial in corresponding home page are the best. And, there might be other resources which will be helpful depending upon your level of proficiency in the language. Here are a few links I will suggest,
[1] PHP Official Documentation - http://www.php.net/manual/en/ [2] For Beginners - http://www.w3schools.com/php/default.asp [3] For Advanced - http://devzone.zend.com/public/view/tag/tutorials [4] Pretty active PHP Forum - http://forums.devnetwork.net/index.php
On Monday 26 February 2007 13:41, Parthan wrote:
Good links for PHP ? Always the documentation and tutorial in corresponding home page are the best. And, there might be other resources which will be helpful depending upon your level of proficiency in the language.
Thanks for the links Parthan!
Hi,
My thoughts below:
--- Sir Stupid dumb.b0t@gmail.com wrote:
I have been to NIIT & already checked with them about language course, they said "C" & "C++" will be covered in a period of 2 months.
But, they won't tell why you should learn it? :)
Use programming languages as tools. Not all tools are suitable for all problems.
Since, you are into networking, you might want to look at the industry to see what you wanna be or what your interests are.
If you want to do network programming, I'd recommend Richard Steven's UNIX Network Programming book:
W. Richard Stevens. (1990). UNIX Network Programming. Prentice Hall .
The GNU/Linux code examples for the above from Dan Kegel are at:
I personally do not feel that 2-months time is sufficient for those two languages.
Right. It is not learning the language. It is how you apply it, and this will take time, even years.
Also, i keep reading about 'RUBY' & 'Python' and i gather that RUBY is much easy to learn for beginner like me.
If you want to do some network application or web development, then you can learn scripting languages like Ruby, Python, PHP et. al.
So, any experts out there can please point me to any institute which offers courses in RUBY / Python ?
Self-study is the best way to study. As on date, I have not seen *good* institutes in India, so, I recommend that you learn on your own.
If you get stuck with anything (free/open source related), please post your queries to the mailing list, and we can help you out.
IMO, I would also recommend that you learn Perl for networking. But, that's just my opinion.
Have fun,
SK
-- Shakthi Kannan http://www.shakthimaan.com
____________________________________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
On 2/21/07, Sir Stupid dumb.b0t@gmail.com wrote:
I personally do not feel that 2-months time is sufficient for those two languages. Also, i keep reading about 'RUBY' & 'Python' and i gather that RUBY is much easy to learn for beginner like me.
I guess a bundle of suggestions would be in by now, here's adding one more: http://swaroopch.info/text/Byte_of_Python:Main_Page
:Sankarshan
-
abhishek -
Anant Narayanan -
Baishampayan Ghose -
Devdas Bhagat -
Dhawal Doshy -
Dinesh Kumar -
G Karunakar -
Harsh Busa -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
Kumar Appaiah -
Parthan -
quasi -
Raj Mathur -
Rony -
Roshan -
Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay -
Shakthi Kannan -
Sir Stupid -
Vihan Pandey -
vivek khurana