For those who still install windos on their client machines and think that worms and viri cause only software on the pc to be damaged.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_22/b3935001_mz001.htm
Windose users are actually abetting criminals indirectly. And Installers particularly those on this list are doing so directly by installing the stuff after being fully aware of the problems. And the banks and financial institutions all running windose. We are lucky cause the value of the rupee is 1/47 of the dollar so for the same effort the criminal earns 47 times more targeting US and Eur.
rgds jtd
On Saturday 21 May 2005 10:55 am, sherlock@vsnl.com wrote:
And Installers particularly those on this list are doing so directly by installing the stuff after being fully aware of the problems.
windoze installers on this list????
sherlock@vsnl.com wrote:
Windose users are actually abetting criminals indirectly. And Installers particularly those on this list are doing so directly by installing the stuff after being fully aware of the problems. And the banks and financial institutions all running windose. We are lucky cause the value of the rupee is 1/47 of the dollar so for the same effort the criminal earns 47 times more targeting US and Eur.
As I happen to still use windows and advise customers to buy Win XP to get regular updates and updates for the updates, I am splitting my reply in parts.
First, Linux is not 100% compatible with top results, to all the common hardware that goes into a new system, including internal modems, dot matrix printers, scanners, cell phones etc.
Second, many internet based services including service providers and websites are optimised for Windows and Internet Explorer.
Third, security issues need knowledge and understanding of the internet and its problems. A windows user with the proper knowledge of the same is as safe and secure as a linux user. My personal experience is that there are much more graphical softwares and utilities for windows that help the user to not only be more secure but even keep track of the net activity without too much indepth knowledge of the OS, as would be required in Linux and one drawback of linux is that many security softwares work in root mode only, therefore they require the user to know the root password. Maybe I am not aware of doing the same in user mode without root password. Even kppp does not work in user mode without gksu --> root passwd.
Fourth, I know a Windows user who has accidently used his OS ('98) without any antivirus loaded for more than a week and he has been doing online trading on a cable internet. When the av was loaded, no viruses were found. I know another '98 user whose machine is an old Pentium 233 and his antivirus had expired a few years ago. He uses his system everyday to make calls to his children in the US. He had no viruses. Net security depends a lot on what sites the user surfs and what security levels are set in his browser. A good firewall and live anti-spyware does a great job in windows for unwanted attacks. The 'HOSTS' file also plays a crucial role in blocking known bad sites.
Some questions:
Why are viruses and trojans not created for linux? When linux overtakes windows in client machines, will there be a possibility of viruses and trojans being created for linux too?
If a linux user surfs the net without a firewall and with java scripting active in his browser, will his system be prone to hacking attempts and key logging/password grabbing?
Lets look at the issue in a practical way rather than randomly curse all windows users/installers. The OS is selected by the user. The installer has to follow market forces.
As Amitabh said to Shashi Kapoor in 'Deewar'....."First let the windows based hardware and software manufacturers sign as AHs, then ask me to sign as an AH".
Regards,
Rony.
On 21/05/05 20:46 +0530, Rony Bill wrote:
sherlock@vsnl.com wrote:
Windose users are actually abetting criminals indirectly. And Installers particularly those on this list are doing so directly by installing the stuff after being fully aware of the problems. And the banks and financial institutions all running windose. We are lucky cause the value of the rupee is 1/47 of the dollar so for the same effort the criminal earns 47 times more targeting US and Eur.
As I happen to still use windows and advise customers to buy Win XP to get regular updates and updates for the updates, I am splitting my reply in parts.
First, Linux is not 100% compatible with top results, to all the common hardware that goes into a new system, including internal modems, dot matrix printers, scanners, cell phones etc.
Name non crappy hardware that does not work with Linux. I can think of higher end digital cameras, but Linux simply does not have applications yet which can work to the quality that the photographers using them want.
Second, many internet based services including service providers and websites are optimised for Windows and Internet Explorer.
Which is _totally_ irrelevant. In fact, users need to complain about such things.
Third, security issues need knowledge and understanding of the internet and its problems. A windows user with the proper knowledge of the same is as safe and secure as a linux user. My personal experience is that
Do you have any idea of how hard it is to gain that depth of knowledge in Windows?
there are much more graphical softwares and utilities for windows that help the user to not only be more secure but even keep track of the net
Graphical interfaces are a minor feature in security. Really :).
activity without too much indepth knowledge of the OS, as would be required in Linux and one drawback of linux is that many security softwares work in root mode only, therefore they require the user to
Uhm, how do you call that a drawback? An administrative account is needed to change security policies and permissions. This is a good thing. If you are in the habit of working as a non root user, then any attacker who can compromise your account does not have the ability to damage your system.
know the root password. Maybe I am not aware of doing the same in user mode without root password. Even kppp does not work in user mode without gksu --> root passwd.
kppp brings up a logical interface, ppp0. This requires root privileges. For that, I would setup sudo.
Fourth, I know a Windows user who has accidently used his OS ('98) without any antivirus loaded for more than a week and he has been doing online trading on a cable internet. When the av was loaded, no viruses were found. I know another '98 user whose machine is an old Pentium 233 and his antivirus had expired a few years ago. He uses his system everyday to make calls to his children in the US. He had no viruses. Net security depends a lot on what sites the user surfs and what security levels are set in his browser. A good firewall and live anti-spyware does a great job in windows for unwanted attacks. The 'HOSTS' file also plays a crucial role in blocking known bad sites.
I would rather not use Internet Explorer. There are too many exploits out there. Securing a Windows system is really hard. Far, far harder than securing a Unix system. O'Reilly has a book named 'Securing Windows NT/2000 servers for the Internet'. I recommend that you read it, and also the NSA guidelines for securing Win32.
Citing a couple of anecdotes in favour of Windows users not being affected does not help :). I would just point out that the CBL, which primarily lists compromised systems lists over a million addresses, almost all of which are Windows systems (IIRC, about 4 Linux systems running Pagini's anti-spam killer software with callbacks enabled were listed). If you want hard numbers, I could ask the people running the cbl for information.
Some questions:
Why are viruses and trojans not created for linux? When linux overtakes windows in client machines, will there be a possibility of viruses and trojans being created for linux too?
It is possible to create viruses and trojans for any operating system. However, compromising Linux systems the way Windows default installations can be compromised is a lot harder. The biggest security risk that applies to Unix system is bad passwords. This does not figure anywhere in the Windows top 10 risks (See sans.org).
If a linux user surfs the net without a firewall and with java scripting active in his browser, will his system be prone to hacking attempts and key logging/password grabbing?
Unless you are running a very old version of your browser, no.
Lets look at the issue in a practical way rather than randomly curse all windows users/installers. The OS is selected by the user. The installer has to follow market forces.
Actually, in most cases, the user follows the recommendations of the hardware vendor. Hardware vendors recommend Windows because that is what they know to install, and you have a decent chance of getting hardware working with Windows.
On the other hand, if they were to tell people that winmodems are bad (software modems are bad, regardless of OS support) and just buying better hardware will save them more money in the long run, they might find it a lot easier to support Linux.
Devdas Bhagat
On Saturday 21 May 2005 11:13 pm, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
Name non crappy hardware that does not work with Linux. I can think of higher end digital cameras, but Linux simply does not have applications yet which can work to the quality that the photographers using them want.
didnt see titanic???????
te:
On Saturday 21 May 2005 11:13 pm, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
Name non crappy hardware that does not work with Linux. I can think of higher end digital cameras, but Linux simply does not have applications yet which can work to the quality that the photographers using them want.
didnt see titanic???????
didn't you see shreak either that done on HP unix. Oh sorry to say that that star wars III too was done on LINUX...
Derwyn
On Monday, May 23, 2005 11:37 AM Derwyn Dpenha wrote:
On Saturday 21 May 2005 11:13 pm, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
Name non crappy hardware that does not work with Linux. I can think of higher end digital cameras, but Linux simply does not have applications yet which can work to the quality that the photographers using them want.
didnt see titanic???????
didn't you see shreak either that done on HP unix. Oh sorry to say that that star wars III too was done on LINUX...
Derwyn
Oh ! I knew it. But BTW, which linux did they use. RHL, SuSE, Mandrake or Self Developed. I dont think James( Cameron of course !) himself did the coding. May be he had spent some $$$$ on that software too. If he had spent "0" yes "zero" on it, pls show me the person who did it to him for free. Unless he was his bro-in-law.
regds,
rc
On Saturday 21 May 2005 11:13 pm, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
Actually, in most cases, the user follows the recommendations of the hardware vendor. Hardware vendors recommend Windows because that is what they know to install, and you have a decent chance of getting hardware working with Windows.
also in india windoze is cheaper than linux
On Sat, May 21, 2005 at 08:46:24PM +0530, Rony Bill wrote:
First, Linux is not 100% compatible with top results, to all the common hardware that goes into a new system, including internal modems, dot matrix printers, scanners, cell phones etc.
Er? Sure it is. Unless you're buying Windows-branded hardware, which is just stupid.
Second, many internet based services including service providers and websites are optimised for Windows and Internet Explorer.
That is wrong, and that is changing. Jeez, what do you expect if you roll over and die for the Microsoft machine? People need to complain on hitting a web site that isn't.
Third, security issues need knowledge and understanding of the internet and its problems. A windows user with the proper knowledge of the same is as safe and secure as a linux user. My personal experience is that
So why not use Linux?
there are much more graphical softwares and utilities for windows that help the user to not only be more secure but even keep track of the net activity without too much indepth knowledge of the OS, as would be
As there are on Linux.
required in Linux and one drawback of linux is that many security softwares work in root mode only, therefore they require the user to know the root password. Maybe I am not aware of doing the same in user mode without root password. Even kppp does not work in user mode without gksu --> root passwd.
So install Ubuntu, it works better in the dipshit mode that you seem to prefer.
Fourth, I know a Windows user who has accidently used his OS ('98) without any antivirus loaded for more than a week and he has been doing online trading on a cable internet. When the av was loaded, no viruses were found. I know another '98 user whose machine is an old Pentium 233 and his antivirus had expired a few years ago. He uses his system everyday to make calls to his children in the US. He had no viruses. Net security depends a lot on what sites the user surfs and what security levels are set in his browser. A good firewall and live anti-spyware does a great job in windows for unwanted attacks. The 'HOSTS' file also plays a crucial role in blocking known bad sites.
As it does on Linux. So?
Why are viruses and trojans not created for linux? When linux overtakes windows in client machines, will there be a possibility of viruses and trojans being created for linux too?
Trojans, sure. But the security model disallows random execution as root -- which is why we're always screaming for people to not IRC as root, for example.
If a linux user surfs the net without a firewall and with java scripting active in his browser, will his system be prone to hacking attempts and key logging/password grabbing?
Sure. At least the user's account will. the entire machine may be safe depending on it is set up.
Lets look at the issue in a practical way rather than randomly curse all windows users/installers. The OS is selected by the user. The installer has to follow market forces.
You're just spreading FUD. FOAD. I can anticipate every one of your responses, too. I know you and people like you simply won't listen. Why do I bother.
On Saturday 21 May 2005 8:46 pm, Rony Bill wrote:
As I happen to still use windows and advise customers to buy Win XP to get regular updates and updates for the updates,
what i dont understand is - why are you on this list?
On Saturday 21 May 2005 8:46 pm, Rony Bill wrote:
As I happen to still use windows and advise customers to buy Win XP to get regular updates and updates for the updates,
Why all this finger-pointing? I am an unhappy Windoze user thanks to some stupid company project; and I have to put up with the suffering everyday.
As for the Windows support et al. According to what their ads on TV say, Windows actually helps "start anything"... but mark my words, it also makes sure that whatever got started stops working. Don't believe me? Learn some C and have a look at the stolen code floating around on the Net.
Would you put diesel in a petrol-driven car? You just can't throw hardware at GNU/Linux and expect things to work. Before you buy that new gizmo, make sure you have a look at the hardware compatibility lists. GNU/Linux delivers what it promises; if there's something it can't deliver, it doesn't promise.
Why complain that Windows allows me to do this, and GNU/Linux doesn't allow me to do it? GNU/Linux and Windows are different; not clones. Besides that you'd be just complaining "there's no sauce on my burger". GNU/Linux world is a self-service world; make your own sauce and pour.
And JTD, get a life; choose a better subject line next time :P
Regards,
ah
Rony Bill [ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk] wrote:
Some questions:
Why are viruses and trojans not created for linux? When linux overtakes windows in client machines, will there be a possibility of viruses and trojans being created for linux too?
If a linux user surfs the net without a firewall and with java scripting active in his browser, will his system be prone to hacking attempts and key logging/password grabbing?
Lets look at the issue in a practical way rather than randomly curse all windows users/installers. The OS is selected by the user. The installer has to follow market forces.
I totally agree with Rony. May be in future when Linux will rule the roost, they may have a million more virii and worms than there currently are on Windoze.
As there will be many more poeple who can see the code freely, there will be more experts who can exploit the code.
And anything popular will have its own sworn enemies. Like Windoze has. What can prevent M$ to exploit the code of Linux and invest in maligning or crashing Linux like all the Windoze haters do right now. After all it is free for all.
Bye,
rc
I find it amusing that so many novices these days think they are experts after reading one or two articles. I'd suggest that all of you read every single article ever published on the security of FOSS in the last 15 years, and shut your mouths until you've understood it all.
Rony Bill wrote:
Fourth, I know a Windows user who has accidently used his OS ('98) without any antivirus loaded for more than a week and he has been doing online trading on a cable internet. When the av was loaded, no viruses were found. I know another '98 user whose machine is an old Pentium 233 and his antivirus had expired a few years ago. He uses his system everyday to make calls to his children in the US. He had no viruses. Net security depends a lot on what sites the user surfs and what security levels are set in his browser. A good firewall and live anti-spyware does a great job in windows for unwanted attacks.
To support your point, in my own case, until the end of last year, I used to run M$ Windows Me RC3 (a relatively stable release of Windows Me, whose production release was a disaster > legal copy from Microsoft I was an official beta tester) with AVG & Wyvernworks Firewall 2004 (both closed-source, free softwares).
I used to visit a large number of web sites, but never had any virus issues. One thing I used to do as a security-conscious user, was enable file extension display, and avoid opening any e-mails with .scr,.pif, or any executable extension to the attachment.
I did have attempted network backdoor accesses (intrusions?) from other users on my ISP's network. However, these were blocked by my firewall.
-- Clinton Goveas -- http://www.clintongoveas.com
Clinton Goveas wrote:
To support your point, in my own case, until the end of last year, I used to run M$ Windows Me RC3 (a relatively stable release of Windows Me, whose production release was a disaster > legal copy from Microsoft I was an official beta tester) with AVG & Wyvernworks Firewall 2004 (both closed-source, free softwares).
I used to visit a large number of web sites, but never had any virus issues. One thing I used to do as a security-conscious user, was enable file extension display, and avoid opening any e-mails with .scr,.pif, or any executable extension to the attachment.
I did have attempted network backdoor accesses (intrusions?) from other users on my ISP's network. However, these were blocked by my firewall.
-- Clinton Goveas -- http://www.clintongoveas.com
Very true in my case too. I have extentions enabled in my systems too. My older comp runs on Me (liscenced) too. It is stable and never gave any serious problems. Like you, I regularly visit dofferent sites and try our new softwares but my system was well protected.
What I am trying to tell to the linuxers is just what Gishu said in his mail. Look at the good side of Windows and implement the same in linux to make it more popular.
Regards,
Rony.
On 23/05/05 17:42 +0530, Rony Bill wrote: <snip>
mail. Look at the good side of Windows and implement the same in linux to make it more popular.
I'll bite. Hardware compatibility: Please point to the specs for the hardware.
Interface: You have multiple choices of interfaces (google for XPDE if you want that interface).
Apps: Point to the applications you need, and their source. I do not have domain knowledge for all the software you may need, so I may be able to help with porting, but not necessarily writing new code.
What else am I missing?
What will not be done: allowing a non root user to install applications outside $HOME.
Devdas Bhagat
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