Fwd: [Ilug-cal-discuss] Introduction to Inkscape - Graphic Design and publishing with Free / Open Source Software
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Indranil Das Gupta indradg@gmail.com Date: Oct 10, 2007 12:54 AM Subject: [Ilug-cal-discuss] Introduction to Inkscape - Graphic Design and publishing with Free / Open Source Software To: ILUG-Cal's principal mailing list ilug-cal-discuss@list.ilug-cal.org
Hi all,
We need to design icons, buttons, graphics for our web-pages, blogs, user interfaces for software projects done. And it is really simple to do so using a fantastic tool called Inkscape. Typically this goes under user-experience engineering and design, a critical part of the software development industry.
So, if you are interested in teaching yourselves how you can do the same, following this blog regular and practice according to the tutorials - http://inkscapetutorials.wordpress.com/
This blog is the aggregation of some of the top guys working in the field. So, in a way, if you start following their advice you will be learning from some of the best. And who knows, one of you may just turn out to be the next graphics design and user experience guru from India!
cheers, -indra _______________________________________________ Ilug-cal-discuss mailing list Ilug-cal-discuss@list.ilug-cal.org http://list.ilug-cal.org/mailman/listinfo/ilug-cal-discuss
[...]
So, if you are interested in teaching yourselves how you can do the same, following this blog regular and practice according to the tutorials - http://inkscapetutorials.wordpress.com/
[snip]
Hey there! Great blog on Inskcape. I was looking for some guidance on using the software since quite sometime. :) thanks. I believe Inkscape is comparable to a proprietary software Adobe Illustrator. An awesome asset for the Graphic designers in the Open Source Community indeed! :) Thanks and regards
Hey there! Great blog on Inskcape. I was looking for some guidance on using the software since quite sometime. :) thanks. I believe Inkscape is comparable to a proprietary software Adobe Illustrator. An awesome asset for the Graphic designers in the Open Source Community indeed! :)
IMHO its still ages away from being equivalent to Adobe Illustrator. But a great tool anyways.
regards VK
On Friday 12 October 2007 08:32, vivek khurana wrote:
IMHO its still ages away from being equivalent to Adobe Illustrator. But a great tool anyways.
Do you have Adobe Illustrator for linux? You dont? Which means that Adobe Illustrator is not even ready leave alone being the equiv of Inkscape. Which by the way also runs natively on M$ wormware.
And by the way the same cribs were bandied about for various apps, prime example being Oo. A few years on M$ office is a caricature best left to those who never get it.
You can switch now and save yourself a load of pain 2 yrs downhill or not at all and sink in the lake with the millstone firmly tied to your head.
On 10/12/07, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
On Friday 12 October 2007 08:32, vivek khurana wrote:
IMHO its still ages away from being equivalent to Adobe Illustrator. But a great tool anyways.
Do you have Adobe Illustrator for linux? You dont? Which means that Adobe Illustrator is not even ready leave alone being the equiv of Inkscape. Which by the way also runs natively on M$ wormware.
And by the way the same cribs were bandied about for various apps, prime example being Oo. A few years on M$ office is a caricature best left to those who never get it.
You can switch now and save yourself a load of pain 2 yrs downhill or not at all and sink in the lake with the millstone firmly tied to your head.
a) I am NOT A GRAPHICS DESIGNER. b) Inkscape is already into development for more than "few" years. c) Will you use Oo, if Oo failed to export files in any format other than odf ? Not even RTF or text or HTML ? d) How will you make a design if the tools required to design are not yet implemented ? e) There are plethora of applications which do not run on Linux that doesnt make those applications inferior. Linux is not an operating system you see on every desktop, yet.
Another analogy will be of people not using Linux for CAD because we are yet to see tools which will match softwares like AutoCAD.
regards VK
On Friday 12 October 2007 18:10, vivek khurana wrote:
On 10/12/07, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
On Friday 12 October 2007 08:32, vivek khurana wrote:
IMHO its still ages away from being equivalent to Adobe Illustrator. But a great tool anyways.
Do you have Adobe Illustrator for linux? You dont? Which means that Adobe Illustrator is not even ready leave alone being the equiv of Inkscape. Which by the way also runs natively on M$ wormware.
And by the way the same cribs were bandied about for various apps, prime example being Oo. A few years on M$ office is a caricature best left to those who never get it.
You can switch now and save yourself a load of pain 2 yrs downhill or not at all and sink in the lake with the millstone firmly tied to your head.
a) I am NOT A GRAPHICS DESIGNER.
That does not change the situation in any significant way.
b) Inkscape is already into development for more than "few" years.
So?
c) Will you use Oo, if Oo failed to export files in any format other than odf ? Not even RTF or text or HTML ?
Moot question. Oo exports in all open formats and several closed ones too. So does inkscape.
d) How will you make a design if the tools required to design are not yet implemented ?
thats shooting in the air. But use the tools that are available it's extremely rare that the final result cannot be achieved with some combo of tools available, and usually the solution to a particular problem is only a few emails away.
e) There are plethora of applications which do not run on Linux that doesnt make those applications inferior.
That is you hiding behind an imaginary wall. Any app which does not run on linux is CRAP - not just inferior. And any closed app is vastly inferior to a FOSS app irrespective of this or that feature. you will know when such apps bite you. Till then have fun.
Linux is not an operating system you see on every desktop, yet.
So?
Another analogy will be of people not using Linux for CAD because we are yet to see tools which will match softwares like AutoCAD.
brlcad is EXCEPT for dimensioning. One of the list guys did the hard work of trying it out and comparing to acad.
The advantages of using foss far outweigh any disadvantage. And again the disadvatages have proven to be mostly imaginary or very temporary. Coversely most of the touted advantages of closed app have actually proven to be millstones that killed them. The advantages are actually desperate compromises that are extremely hardware / oss / assumptions dependent and none of the compromises have been peer reviewed.
I could go on and on. But you will miss the fun of discovery at costs.
On 10/13/07, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
Another analogy will be of people not using Linux for CAD because we are yet to see tools which will match softwares like AutoCAD.
brlcad is EXCEPT for dimensioning. One of the list guys did the hard work of trying it out and comparing to acad.
The advantages of using foss far outweigh any disadvantage. And again the disadvatages have proven to be mostly imaginary or very temporary. Coversely most of the touted advantages of closed app have actually proven to be millstones that killed them. The advantages are actually desperate compromises that are extremely hardware / oss / assumptions dependent and none of the compromises have been peer reviewed.
I could go on and on. But you will miss the fun of discovery at costs.
Dear JTD, Thanks for expressing your views and I dont feel there is any use in replying to half cooked arguments of yours. You are not willing to look at the real problem and no one can understand the real problems with inlscape untill you have the domain knowledge. You are refusing to look at analogies presented from other domains but looks like that was insufficient. I used these analogies to bring out the seriousness of the missing features. I understand that you belong to the group of people who would be happy to fart one million lines of code in the name of "FOSS" but will not spend 10 minutes trying to understand the problem which has to be solved. There are no excuses for bad quality software weather it is foss or non-foss. Any compariosons with cost etc is useless untill you can use it for what you want to achieve. Inkscape has several serious problems/mistakes. First of all inkscape will not export (images or selections) in any format other than png. At times you simply dont need png and png implementation is known to be broken for several non-foss and foss applications. This is only the tip of the iceberg. Inkscape shouts about SVG format and they are yet to fully implement SVG 1.1 standard. You can have a look at the road map and with little doamin knowledge you will realize the blunders in Inkscape development. Now I expect everyone to do mistakes but I do expect them to fix them *in time*. Overall inkscape has a really long road to travel before it can touch the quality of other softwares in the same domain.
regards VK
On 14-Oct-07, at 2:02 PM, vivek khurana wrote:
Inkscape has several serious problems/mistakes. First of all inkscape will not export (images or selections) in any format other than png. At times you simply dont need png and png implementation is known to be broken for several non-foss and foss applications. This is only the tip of the iceberg. Inkscape shouts about SVG format and they are yet to fully implement SVG 1.1 standard. You can have a look at the road map and with little doamin knowledge you will realize the blunders in Inkscape development. Now I expect everyone to do mistakes but I do expect them to fix them *in time*. Overall inkscape has a really long road to travel before it can touch the quality of other softwares in the same domain.
+1
On Sunday 14 October 2007 14:02, vivek khurana wrote:
Dear JTD, Thanks for expressing your views and I dont feel there is any use in replying to half cooked arguments of yours. You are not willing to look at the real problem and no one can understand the real problems with inlscape untill you have the domain knowledge. You are refusing to look at analogies presented from other domains but looks like that was insufficient. I used these analogies to bring out the seriousness of the missing features.
You did not which was exactly the point i was making. You made a blanket statement (like many others do) xyz is not ready for use.
I understand that you belong to the group of people who would be happy to fart one million lines of code in the name of "FOSS"
Farting a ton of FOSS code is alot better than lapping up prop shit u know.
but will not spend 10 minutes trying to understand the problem which has to be solved.
Which according to you is put xyz widget here or there to do this and that the same as some other piece of your favourite tool does?
There are no excuses for bad quality software weather it is foss or non-foss. Any compariosons with cost etc is useless untill you can use it for what you want to achieve.
Absolutely. But depends on what is your definition of quality.
Inkscape has several serious problems/mistakes. First of all inkscape will not export (images or selections) in any format other than png. At times you simply dont need png and png implementation is known to be broken for several non-foss and foss applications. This is only the tip of the iceberg. Inkscape shouts about SVG format and they are yet to fully implement SVG 1.1 standard.
And adobe does?
You can have a look at the road map and with little doamin knowledge you will realize the blunders in Inkscape development. Now I expect everyone to do mistakes but I do expect them to fix them *in time*. Overall inkscape has a really long road to travel before it can touch the quality of other softwares in the same domain.
Time will tell.
jtd wrote:
On Friday 12 October 2007 18:10, vivek khurana wrote:
On 10/12/07, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
You can switch now and save yourself a load of pain 2 yrs downhill or not at all and sink in the lake with the millstone firmly tied to your head.
We keep hearing this every year and life just goes on smoothly in the CSS world. (Closed Source Software) Doomsday gets an extension every year.
c) Will you use Oo, if Oo failed to export files in any format other than odf ? Not even RTF or text or HTML ?
Moot question. Oo exports in all open formats and several closed ones too. So does inkscape.
Inkscape is the libre equivalent of Corel Draw and the industry uses the .cdr format, which is not recognised by Inkscape. There ends the FOSS presentation. CDR files are regularly exchanged between suppliers, vendors and customers.
d) How will you make a design if the tools required to design are not yet implemented ?
thats shooting in the air. But use the tools that are available it's extremely rare that the final result cannot be achieved with some combo of tools available, and usually the solution to a particular problem is only a few emails away.
Industry does not use libre file formats.
e) There are plethora of applications which do not run on Linux that doesnt make those applications inferior.
That is you hiding behind an imaginary wall. Any app which does not run on linux is CRAP - not just inferior. And any closed app is vastly inferior to a FOSS app irrespective of this or that feature. you will know when such apps bite you. Till then have fun.
That's imagination running wild. You are mixing between a finished product and manufacturing / upgradation process. A finished product has to work and do what's expected of it. Libre software has not reached that stage for many industry level data formats. Libre software can overtake CSS in performance and functionality but currently not many want to sit behind the wheel to do that. Till then CSS will hold a strong presence in the market.
The advantages of using foss far outweigh any disadvantage.
Its not about advantage or disadvantage. Before that, it has to actually work for the company.
And again the disadvatages have proven to be mostly imaginary or very temporary. Coversely most of the touted advantages of closed app have actually proven to be millstones that killed them. The advantages are actually desperate compromises that are extremely hardware / oss / assumptions dependent and none of the compromises have been peer reviewed.
CSS is paid software so the software company always has the sword hanging over its head and users can criticise it, curse it, holler at the makers till they come up with better upgrades. Libre software is like free accommodation in an Ashram. Life in the ashram is dull and placid, with no social interaction but those who cannot afford their own accommodation have no choice than to live there. The ashram authorities feel they have already done a great job so no improvisation is needed and they punish anyone who complains. When libre software comes out of its ashram mentality and caters to the industry, it will automatically become popular and leave CSS far behind. Till then at least lets accept facts as they are.
On 10/14/07, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
jtd wrote:
On Friday 12 October 2007 18:10, vivek khurana wrote:
On 10/12/07, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
[...]
CSS is paid software so the software company always has the sword hanging over its head and users can criticise it, curse it, holler at the makers till they come up with better upgrades. Libre software is like free accommodation in an Ashram. Life in the ashram is dull and placid, with no social interaction but those who cannot afford their own accommodation have no choice than to live there. The ashram authorities feel they have already done a great job so no improvisation is needed and they punish anyone who complains. When libre software comes out of its ashram mentality and caters to the industry, it will automatically become popular and leave CSS far behind. Till then at least lets accept facts as they are.
Yep. Lets accept the facts. Actually what i wrote in an earlier post in this thread was that Inkscape is _comparable_ to Illustrator and not _equivalent_. I believe there's a difference. Also, I believe unless there's a business motive driving the development of this software, it might never reach a level where it can be called _equivalent_ to the CSS which are today used by the industry at large. And by the way, those who *hate* CSS so much that they feel enraged at the mere mention of it should reconsider! It will take considerable time and effort for an OSS to at least reach the level of quality thats delivered by Adobe and Autodesk! Afterall, there are people who pay amounts of the order of thousands of dollars for a single software license to these companies. That proves their efficacy. And before further comments on these companies I would request you to go to their websites and check out their news releases, company's history, and the efficacy of their software. Nevertheless, hating a CSS vendor or a CSS, for that matter, won't serve our purpose; contributing to the OSS development to the level they do, might!! However, one thing that nags me really hard is that even though there is such a huge Linux user community, why aren't softwares like Flash, Photoshop, 3Ds Max, etc available for Linux? Has the Linux community totally closed their doors for CSS, even if its perfect value for money? [not talking about MSO! ;) ] Oops, i guess thats too much of OT there.. Temptations of recycling! :D
Hi,
On 10/14/07, Kamaleshwar Morjal [कमलेश्वर मोरजाल] kamaleshwar.morjal@gmail.com wrote:
Yep. Lets accept the facts. Actually what i wrote in an earlier post in this thread was that Inkscape is _comparable_ to Illustrator and not _equivalent_. I believe there's a difference. Also, I believe unless there's a business motive driving the development of this software, it might never reach a level where it can be called _equivalent_ to the CSS which are today used by the industry at large.
Did you go to Freed.in, that nice FOSS conference in Delhi which happened like few weeks back? Did you attend Niyam Bhushan's talk on design et al? If not, I can understand why you saying such things. Next time you get a chance do attend Niyam's talk. ( search on the internet about Niyam btw if you are interested in graphic design, digital sound, digital video, and more, based around GnuLinux tools )
And by the way, those who *hate* CSS so much that they feel enraged at the mere mention of it should reconsider! It will take considerable time and effort for an OSS to at least reach the level of quality thats delivered by Adobe and Autodesk! Afterall, there are
Who said anything about hate? Its a strong word. I don't hate it at all. I love FOSS more, thats all. As an user I like more, as a developer I like it even more.
people who pay amounts of the order of thousands of dollars for a single software license to these companies. That proves their efficacy.
People pay tons of dollars for Windows even, so? I found myself at distress and was almost depressed using Windows Vista. The commandline still sucks for example, it sucks since Window Last Century. Don't tell me CLI is of no use for Vista's target audience. What if I want to develop on Windows for some reason? I don't even get a decent dev platform for my moneys worth. And no I don't want use Visual Studio
And before further comments on these companies I would request you to go to their websites and check out their news releases, company's history, and the efficacy of their software.
Ummm? FOSS applications don't have websites? News? Releases? I thought we do in most projects.
Nevertheless, hating a CSS vendor or a CSS, for that matter, won't serve our purpose; contributing to the OSS development to the level they do, might!!
I contribute, do you? And I don't hate closed source software.
Cheers!
Pradeepto
On 15-Oct-07, at 12:10 AM, Pradeepto Bhattacharya wrote:
Did you go to Freed.in, that nice FOSS conference in Delhiwhich happened like few weeks back? Did you attend Niyam Bhushan's talk on design et al? If not, I can understand why you saying such things. Next time you get a chance do attend Niyam's talk. ( search on the internet about Niyam btw if you are interested in graphic design, digital sound, digital video, and more, based around GnuLinux tools )
also check out Niyam's resume to see how many publishing houses and print magazines he has migrated to FOSS.
Who said anything about hate? Its a strong word. I don'thate it at all. I love FOSS more, thats all. As an user I like more, as a developer I like it even more.
Thats good, but sometimes, people won't talk about hate! They only show hatred :) i hope you didn't have that in mind... And believe me, except a few ignorant people who are M$ *fanboys*, [those who never went beyond or below Visual Studio, for instance :)] there's no developer who wouldn't like FOSS!!! :)
people who pay amounts of the order of thousands of dollars for a single software license to these companies. That proves their efficacy.
People pay tons of dollars for Windows even, so? I foundmyself at distress and was almost depressed using Windows Vista. The commandline still sucks for example, it sucks since Window Last Century. Don't tell me CLI is of no use for Vista's target audience.
Its not! Believe me, all those who were foolish enough to cough out 20000 bucks for just the eye-candy upgrade hate command-line! Many of them never opened cmd.exe in their entire lives!! And these are the ones who know computer as windoze and nothing but windoze, and a browser as IE and nothing but IE!!! (of course there are a few exceptions, who are now suffering and cursing themselves for their decision to upgrade! :D )
What if I want to develop on Windows for some reason? I don't even get a decent dev platform for my moneys worth. And no I don't want use Visual Studio
Don't know about that! Well all i can say is if you make a nice usable application for Linux platform for the good of humanity, you should make it work in Windows and Mac and as many platforms as possible.. Don't tell me thats not possible! Blender's already available for _six_ different platforms including windows!!!
And before further comments on these companies I would request you to go to their websites and check out their news releases, company's history, and the efficacy of their software.
Ummm? FOSS applications don't have websites? News?Releases? I thought we do in most projects.
Its not about having websites!! :) its about their history!! They are in no sense inferior or heading towards doomsday!!! Thats the point! You'll be surprised looking at Adobe's growth curve!! Its phenomenal, even after licensing single copy of Photoshop for more than Rs 30000 today! (talking abt photoshop because thats what they started with near the river Adobe :) ) Why do users (Graphic/Web designers, artists) buy it? ever checked out? Thats what is required from the GIMP development team! [BTW i love GIMP, but can't deny that Photoshop is far more efficient in producing what i and my client wants. Of course, for a certain level, it would depend more on the artist than on his tool! There are many things you can achieve to an equivalent level on both of these!]
Nevertheless, hating a CSS vendor or a CSS, for that matter, won't serve our purpose; contributing to the OSS development to the level they do, might!!
I contribute, do you? And I don't hate closed source software.
Thats really nice. I look forward to joining the league. :)
Cheers!Pradeepto
The KDE Project : http://www.kde.org KDE India : http://in.kde.org Mailing List : http://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-india
cheers!
ha ha.. this thread proves that when people get angry they honstly tell what they're thinking :D
Well, getting back on the thread's topic "Introduction to Inkscape - Graphic Design and publishing with Free / Open Source Software", and considering that Pradeepto, who posted this thread, is a prominent developer.. i request you to consider this argument.. I am a graphic designer and work on both 2D and 3D domains. Most of my prospective employers (read, the 2d/3d production studios) use the Windows platform at least for the front-end work.. That means all their employees (designers, modelers, riggers, animators) have to be thorough with the Windows platform [:(]. Consequently to secure myself a job I have to work on Windows and i have to practice and master using software like Maya and 3D Studio Max!!
Well, i chose FOSS software as my first priority at home; not just because it is free, but because "it gives me freedom"! The freedom to choose, freedom to add/modify/distribute what i have with me and more!! Believe me, it gives me the feeling of freedom, above all!
Now my point here is that looking at it from the USER's perspective (my perspective, here); and not from the developer's perspective, i have alternatives like Inkscape and Blender (and working on both platforms only widened my insight!), that are although really good value software considering the freedom they provide, but still cannot do for me what my employer would demand!! Moreover, if you have spent some time and mastered working on any one of the 3d softwares like Maya, Max or Blender (or Photoshop, GIMP, Inkscape or such in 2d), you definitely know what it takes to master them. Forget development, these softwares have such wide and varied applications that just mastering to use them would take months or even years!! Most of the people working in the 3D industry work on Maya or 3DS Max (the production houses that employ them use those!) They've mastered their art using these tools, and _many_ of them don't care to write a single line (or even a single word) of code to extend the software's usability/applicability/features because there are separate departments to develop and deploy code, plugins, etc. So why would they shift to Linux and when they *cannot* shift to it, it has no value for them in terms of usability!!
Because you write so many nice applications on the Linux platform, you probably want _people_ to use them (not just developers, many more people, please correct me if i am wrong). So how would you convince a user to use the FOSS applications if they're asked to leave the FOSS world altogether when they complain?
Moreover, in the production environment in any graphics development organisation or a production studio, what counts is the speed of execution, and if you compare all the above mentioned applications, the workflow is the fasest in some of the CSS and paid software and not on the OSS alternatives (i wish it was the other way round)!! For example, in 3D, if you work on 3DS Max, Maya and Blender for three months (any time less than that would not qualify you to reach conclusions about workflow speeds!), you'll notice for yourself that nothing matches the speed of workflow that Maya offers! Not even 3DS Max or any other closed 3d application; precisely the reason for its efficacy in the industry, and not just becasue it is costly! In a previous mail you've said that high cost of software does not imply good quality! True, but if its one of the most costly softwares (the latest version costs around US$8000 for a single license!) in the category and still the most widely used, then?? (if a production house can bear the costs, they'll definitely have it!)
Of course, if they wanted they could have developed Blender to that extent with that kind of investment and used that! But what if they don't want to get their hands down and dirty with development, what if they only want to use and not develop? Moreover, consider the cost of shifting now, once they're established, and have already invested so much on proprietary software. Consider the cost of training their workforce, *from scratch*!!
All said, the bottomline is, I cannot afford Maya at home and they don't have a free PLE (Personal Learning Edition) for Linux platform, as they do for the Windows platform! And I love to work on Maya as long as you don't have an application with the comparable workflow! And I, the user, will decide whether an application's workflow is comparable, inferior or superior to another application (of course, i'll give you valuable feedback because I *want* and *love* to use FOSS apps more than Closed ones!) Do you have a solution for me??
All said, the bottomline is, I cannot afford Maya at home and they don't have a free PLE (Personal Learning Edition) for Linux platform, as they do for the Windows platform! And I love to work on Maya as long as you don't have an application with the comparable workflow! And I, the user, will decide whether an application's workflow is comparable, inferior or superior to another application (of course, i'll give you valuable feedback because I *want* and *love* to use FOSS apps more than Closed ones!) Do you have a solution for me??
Oh i forgot, same for Photoshop and ditto for Flash (there's no OSS i could find that gives me the ability to create .swf files like Flash does!)
Sometime on Sunday 14 Oct 2007, Kamaleshwar Morjal [कमलेश्वर मोरजाल] said:
And by the way, those who *hate* CSS so much that they feel enraged at the mere mention of it should reconsider! It will take considerable time and effort for an OSS to at least reach the level of quality thats delivered by Adobe and Autodesk! Afterall, there are people who pay amounts of the order of thousands of dollars for a single software license to these companies. That proves their efficacy.
Charging thousands of dollars does not prove the software is "good". There are masterpiece applications available in foss world as well as proprietary world.
Anurag
Hi,
I am not saying Inkscape is the best software in the world and it doesnot have bugs or it is equal to Corel Draw, NO I am NOT saying that BUT.... you really have some flawed logic.
On 10/14/07, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
jtd wrote:
On Friday 12 October 2007 18:10, vivek khurana wrote:
On 10/12/07, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
You can switch now and save yourself a load of pain 2 yrs downhill or not at all and sink in the lake with the millstone firmly tied to your head.
We keep hearing this every year and life just goes on smoothly in the CSS world. (Closed Source Software) Doomsday gets an extension every year.
Thats still better than "reinstalling" system every few days because of an virus attack and worm attack and such random foo of life.
Moot question. Oo exports in all open formats and several closed ones too. So does inkscape.
Inkscape is the libre equivalent of Corel Draw and the industry uses the .cdr format, which is not recognised by Inkscape. There ends the FOSS presentation. CDR files are regularly exchanged between suppliers, vendors and customers.
Industry uses closed .doc format even, so? How does that make it right?
Industry does not use libre file formats.
Really? Which industry? And which file formats are you talking about?
That's imagination running wild. You are mixing between a finished product and manufacturing / upgradation process. A finished product has to work and do what's expected of it. Libre software has not reached that stage for many industry level data formats. Libre software can overtake CSS in performance and functionality but currently not many want to sit behind the wheel to do that. Till then CSS will hold a strong presence in the market.
Will you consider real life examples of Govt and Pvt bodies using Libre software? Do you want Indian or non-indian examples? In which pvt bodies and govt institutions have moved to Linux and FOSS completely - say for Groupware, Office stuff etc?
CSS is paid software so the software company always has the sword hanging over its head and users can criticise it, curse it, holler at
What makes you think that the FOSS software that I write [ KDE PIM in this case ] doesnot get fixed when there are bugs? What makes you think that nobody reports bugs in those products? What makes you think that we don't reply to bug reports? What makes you think that we don't make timely releases? What makes you think that the FOSS software product that I am involved in is not being used by thousands of people and not just random people but by people who consider their data very important and call the shots in their domains - be it govt or private institutions? What makes you think that they are only with big money and not people with little or no money?
Or are these just your prejudices?
Oh and I am sure, others who are more informed can tell the same about other products like OOo and more.
the makers till they come up with better upgrades. Libre software is like free accommodation in an Ashram. Life in the ashram is dull and placid, with no social interaction but those who cannot afford their own accommodation have no choice than to live there. The ashram authorities feel they have already done a great job so no improvisation is needed and they punish anyone who complains. When libre software comes out of its ashram mentality and caters to the industry, it will automatically become popular and leave CSS far behind. Till then at least lets accept facts as they are.
No social interaction? Define Social interaction please.
Cheers!
Pradeepto
Pradeepto Bhattacharya wrote:
On 10/14/07, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/12/07, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
You can switch now and save yourself a load of pain 2 yrs downhill or not at all and sink in the lake with the millstone firmly tied to your head.
We keep hearing this every year and life just goes on smoothly in the CSS world. (Closed Source Software) Doomsday gets an extension every year.
Thats still better than "reinstalling" system every few daysbecause of an virus attack and worm attack and such random foo of life.
Again a miss-conception about Windows. It is vulnerable but with proper protection and company usage policies, it takes a few years between reloads.
Moot question. Oo exports in all open formats and several closed ones too. So does inkscape.
Inkscape is the libre equivalent of Corel Draw and the industry uses the .cdr format, which is not recognised by Inkscape. There ends the FOSS presentation. CDR files are regularly exchanged between suppliers, vendors and customers.
Industry uses closed .doc format even, so? How does that makeit right?
It is not about right or wrong but catering to industry's needs instead of simply pushing semi-functional libre software on them.
Industry does not use libre file formats.
Really? Which industry? And which file formats are you talking about?
Doc, xls, ppt, cdr, aie, dwg, max, (photoshop and its allies, can't recollect the exact extns.) Lets not start the OOo thing again. If it was so good, it would circulate like pirated software.
That's imagination running wild. You are mixing between a finished product and manufacturing / upgradation process. A finished product has to work and do what's expected of it. Libre software has not reached that stage for many industry level data formats. Libre software can overtake CSS in performance and functionality but currently not many want to sit behind the wheel to do that. Till then CSS will hold a strong presence in the market.
Will you consider real life examples of Govt and Pvt bodiesusing Libre software? Do you want Indian or non-indian examples? In which pvt bodies and govt institutions have moved to Linux and FOSS completely - say for Groupware, Office stuff etc?
Agreed. That's what I have said in earlier mails too, that libre software is well suited for big organisations. Small orgs need proper finished products.
CSS is paid software so the software company always has the sword hanging over its head and users can criticise it, curse it, holler at
What makes you think that the FOSS software that I write [KDE PIM in this case ] doesnot get fixed when there are bugs?
Bugs part comes later. First, it should work.
What makes you think that nobody reports bugs in those products? What makes you think that we don't reply to bug reports? What makes you think that we don't make timely releases? What makes you think that the FOSS software product that I am involved in is not being used by thousands of people and not just random people but by people who consider their data very important and call the shots in their domains - be it govt or private institutions?
Govt. and moneyed institutions can make FOSS dance to their tune.
What makes you think that they are only with big money and not people with little or no money?
What is the percentage of such users in the commercial sector?
the makers till they come up with better upgrades. Libre software is like free accommodation in an Ashram. Life in the ashram is dull and placid, with no social interaction but those who cannot afford their own accommodation have no choice than to live there. The ashram authorities feel they have already done a great job so no improvisation is needed and they punish anyone who complains. When libre software comes out of its ashram mentality and caters to the industry, it will automatically become popular and leave CSS far behind. Till then at least lets accept facts as they are.
No social interaction? Define Social interaction please.
FOSS users have to be content to make sacrifices as they cannot do everything that can be done on CSS platforms. It is a conscious decision one has to take before migrating to FOSS. Just yesterday, I wanted to copy some video CDs but K3B in Kubuntu 6.10 and 6.06 threw up errors that it cannot read disks with multiple tracks. Finally I had to use my Windows XP to do it using Nero. There are many such instances where one is compelled to use the Windows platform to get their work done.
Hi,
On 10/15/07, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
Again a miss-conception about Windows. It is vulnerable but with proper protection and company usage policies, it takes a few years between reloads.
You have enough mis-conceptions about foss as well, I dare to say.
Industry uses closed .doc format even, so? How does that makeit right?
It is not about right or wrong but catering to industry's needs instead of simply pushing semi-functional libre software on them.
Yeah right! Nice try.
Industry does not use libre file formats.
Really? Which industry? And which file formats are you talking about?Doc, xls, ppt, cdr, aie, dwg, max, (photoshop and its allies, can't recollect the exact extns.) Lets not start the OOo thing again. If it was so good, it would circulate like pirated software.
So by that analogy "pirated" software is equal to "good software"?
Hah hah ... that statement and after all the hard work that some people with lots of time did to make sure MS formats are not made standard. I am starting to wonder why do you use any FOSS at all? Since when "piracy" is a good thing btw? And why would anybody "pirate" software that is Free and Libre in first place?
I am convinced that you have got the foss thing completely wrong. I sincerely suggest you to leave foss for good. Please use everything that is non-foss and be happy. Why rant so much about semi usable software? Use the ones that are usable. Seriously, why bother at all?
Will you consider real life examples of Govt and Pvt bodiesusing Libre software? Do you want Indian or non-indian examples? In which pvt bodies and govt institutions have moved to Linux and FOSS completely - say for Groupware, Office stuff etc?
Agreed. That's what I have said in earlier mails too, that libre software is well suited for big organisations. Small orgs need proper finished products.
To repeat my argument that I said in OOo thread - does a small ashram in Panvel with hardly any resources count ( without much technical expertise or external paid help/services even ) ? Does a social organisation which installed KDE kiosks in many schools near Bangalore count? If I try harder, I can probably find more examples.
CSS is paid software so the software company always has the sword hanging over its head and users can criticise it, curse it, holler at
What makes you think that the FOSS software that I write [KDE PIM in this case ] doesnot get fixed when there are bugs?
Bugs part comes later. First, it should work.
I take that as an offence. Because I know for fact about large scale deployments of KDEPIM ( in various countries even ). I know for a fact that the enterprise branch version of KDEPIM I have contributed to ( check svn commits if you are interested ) has been included in OpenSuse 10.3 and will be there in Gutsy Gibbon. And soon Fedora will have it. And I am not making stories here. I have hard facts to prove it. But proving it to you actually demeans my contributions to KDE and KDEPIM.
software product that I am involved in is not being used by thousands of people and not just random people but by people who consider their data very important and call the shots in their domains - be it govt or private institutions?
Govt. and moneyed institutions can make FOSS dance to their tune.
What makes you think that they are only with big money and not people with little or no money?
See above about the ashram. Btw yesterday the guy who is single handledly responsible for this visited my place and told me a lot about it. He plans to finish of the rest of the migration soon even. So there you go.
Btw, he requirements are not simple even - he requires server setup, typsetting, special fonts, page layouting and many such things. Guess what ? Many a times things don't work as he wants - guess what he does - nopes he doesnot rant. He contacts the devels and asks them how to fix the problem, when will it be resolved and such things. And he has a day job even btw, and not a lukha who doesnot nothing useful with life and nothing better to do.
No social interaction? Define Social interaction please.FOSS users have to be content to make sacrifices as they cannot do everything that can be done on CSS platforms. It is a conscious decision one has to take before migrating to FOSS. Just yesterday, I wanted to copy some video CDs but K3B in Kubuntu 6.10 and 6.06 threw up errors that it cannot read disks with multiple tracks. Finally I had to use my Windows XP to do it using Nero. There are many such instances where one is compelled to use the Windows platform to get their work done.
Huh, what are you talking about? Is that a new definition for social interaction?
I am really wondering if you really understood the FOSS and how it works?
Cheers!
Pradeepto
Pradeepto Bhattacharya wrote:
Hi,
On 10/15/07, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
Doc, xls, ppt, cdr, aie, dwg, max, (photoshop and its allies, can't recollect the exact extns.) Lets not start the OOo thing again. If it was so good, it would circulate like pirated software.
So by that analogy "pirated" software is equal to "good software"?
No. It means that software that's good to use and functions as expected will be used anyway.
Hah hah ... that statement and after all the hard work thatsome people with lots of time did to make sure MS formats are not made standard. I am starting to wonder why do you use any FOSS at all? Since when "piracy" is a good thing btw? And why would anybody "pirate" software that is Free and Libre in first place?
You are jumping to conclusions. See earlier point. Why are people not going for libre software, when it is absolutely free of cost? I have turned to FOSS for its ideology and have made a few adjustments to use only Linux and open formats. However I cannot push my choices on others simply because they are right. Their work must be done and to their satisfaction. Sometimes even I have to use windows for work that cannot get done in Linux.
I am convinced that you have got the foss thing completelywrong. I sincerely suggest you to leave foss for good. Please use everything that is non-foss and be happy. Why rant so much about semi usable software? Use the ones that are usable. Seriously, why bother at all?
So if anyone complains, boot him out or firewall him.
Will you consider real life examples of Govt and Pvt bodiesusing Libre software? Do you want Indian or non-indian examples? In which pvt bodies and govt institutions have moved to Linux and FOSS completely - say for Groupware, Office stuff etc?
Agreed. That's what I have said in earlier mails too, that libre software is well suited for big organisations. Small orgs need proper finished products.
To repeat my argument that I said in OOo thread - does asmall ashram in Panvel with hardly any resources count ( without much technical expertise or external paid help/services even ) ? Does a social organisation which installed KDE kiosks in many schools near Bangalore count? If I try harder, I can probably find more examples.
What about commercial organisations who are into graphics, architecture, advertising, interiors?
CSS is paid software so the software company always has the sword hanging over its head and users can criticise it, curse it, holler at
What makes you think that the FOSS software that I write [KDE PIM in this case ] doesnot get fixed when there are bugs?
Bugs part comes later. First, it should work.
I take that as an offence.
The reference was not to KDE but libre software. I like KDE. Even my family protested and got me to remove gnome and re-install KDE in the laptop.
Because I know for fact about large scale deployments of KDEPIM ( in various countries even ). I know for a fact that the enterprise branch version of KDEPIM I have contributed to ( check svn commits if you are interested ) has been included in OpenSuse 10.3 and will be there in Gutsy Gibbon. And soon Fedora will have it. And I am not making stories here. I have hard facts to prove it. But proving it to you actually demeans my contributions to KDE and KDEPIM.
Read above reply.
software product that I am involved in is not being used by thousands of people and not just random people but by people who consider their data very important and call the shots in their domains - be it govt or private institutions?
Govt. and moneyed institutions can make FOSS dance to their tune.
What makes you think that they are only with big money and not people with little or no money?
See above about the ashram. Btw yesterday the guy who issingle handledly responsible for this visited my place and told me a lot about it. He plans to finish of the rest of the migration soon even. So there you go.
Btw, he requirements are not simple even - he requiresserver setup, typsetting, special fonts, page layouting and many such things. Guess what ? Many a times things don't work as he wants - guess what he does - nopes he doesnot rant. He contacts the devels and asks them how to fix the problem, when will it be resolved and such things. And he has a day job even btw, and not a lukha who doesnot nothing useful with life and nothing better to do.
Do I guess right that the migration is from pirated software to free?
No social interaction? Define Social interaction please.FOSS users have to be content to make sacrifices as they cannot do everything that can be done on CSS platforms. It is a conscious decision one has to take before migrating to FOSS. Just yesterday, I wanted to copy some video CDs but K3B in Kubuntu 6.10 and 6.06 threw up errors that it cannot read disks with multiple tracks. Finally I had to use my Windows XP to do it using Nero. There are many such instances where one is compelled to use the Windows platform to get their work done.
Huh, what are you talking about? Is that a newdefinition for social interaction?
The social interaction was a analogy for software interaction with the outside world and its activities.
On 15-Oct-07, at 8:00 PM, Pradeepto Bhattacharya wrote:
I am convinced that you have got the foss thing completelywrong. I sincerely suggest you to leave foss for good. Please use everything that is non-foss and be happy. Why rant so much about semi usable software? Use the ones that are usable. Seriously, why bother at all?
this is not acceptable. He has every right to be in the FOSS world - even if only one foot is there. He has every right to rant and rave to his heart's content. FOSS is not a religion - and we dont want fatwas excommunicating people.
On Tuesday 16 October 2007 08:06, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 15-Oct-07, at 8:00 PM, Pradeepto Bhattacharya wrote:
I am convinced that you have got the foss thingcompletely wrong. I sincerely suggest you to leave foss for good. Please use everything that is non-foss and be happy. Why rant so much about semi usable software? Use the ones that are usable. Seriously, why bother at all?
this is not acceptable. He has every right to be in the FOSS world
- even if only one foot is there. He has every right to rant and
rave to his heart's content. FOSS is not a religion - and we dont want fatwas excommunicating people.
Yes. Even if he heartily recommends piracy or even if both his feet are in the air and head in alternate reality. Even if hes in bed with M$. everyone is welcome to his opinion irrespective of it's content or utter lack thereof.
Note: any resemblance of He to characters on this list or elsewhere is wholly unintended and coincidental.
jtd wrote:
Yes. Even if he heartily recommends piracy or even if both his feet are in the air and head in alternate reality. Even if hes in bed with M$. everyone is welcome to his opinion irrespective of it's content or utter lack thereof.
I did not recommend piracy. I only said that if a software is good, it will *spread* like pirated software.
On 18-Oct-07, at 12:21 PM, jtd wrote:
Yes. Even if he heartily recommends piracy
anyone recommending piracy has to be booted
On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:18:03 +0530, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com said:
FOSS users have to be content to make sacrifices as they cannot do everything that can be done on CSS platforms. It is a conscious decision one has to take before migrating to FOSS. Just yesterday, I wanted to copy some video CDs but K3B in Kubuntu 6.10 and 6.06 threw up errors that it cannot read disks with multiple tracks. Finally I had to use my Windows XP to do it using Nero. There are many such instances where one is compelled to use the Windows platform to get their work done.
This might have been your experience (and I commiserate), but that has not been my experience. Indeed, it is the other way around: few proprietary programs can read my BibTeX bibliography records, have no idea how to do proper kerning like TeX does, can't read my inkscape drawings, and so on.
In the last 14 years that I have been usingf Linux, I have found I can do more things with my machine than I would have been able to do with closed systems. Even now, running remote graphical applications is far simpler using xauth (which comes in the box), than the kludged systems on other non-UNIX-like operating systems.
Just look at the litany of complaints in just this thread -- if proprietary systems were capable, this thread would not exist.
manoj
Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:18:03 +0530, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com said:
FOSS users have to be content to make sacrifices as they cannot do everything that can be done on CSS platforms. It is a conscious decision one has to take before migrating to FOSS. Just yesterday, I wanted to copy some video CDs but K3B in Kubuntu 6.10 and 6.06 threw up errors that it cannot read disks with multiple tracks. Finally I had to use my Windows XP to do it using Nero. There are many such instances where one is compelled to use the Windows platform to get their work done.
This might have been your experience (and I commiserate), butthat has not been my experience. Indeed, it is the other way around: few proprietary programs can read my BibTeX bibliography records, have no idea how to do proper kerning like TeX does, can't read my inkscape drawings, and so on.
Your point is accepted.
A few months ago, I had installed Ubuntu 7.04 for someone. A few days ago, I met him found that he was still into windows. He mentioned that his ICICI site did not open in Linux. So I checked it out. It required JRE and firefox threw up green icons of additional plugins required. I followed the instructions as given in the sun website but the browser would still ask for JRE. I even pasted the libjava...so into the plugin folder of local firefox, but still no change. Finally I tried to apt-get the older version but the manager botched up and I was left with a broken package. After more than 1 hour, the person got edgy and decided to use windows only.
The reason for this detailed description is to highlight that in Windows one simply runs the JRE exe and it is installed automatically. I did not rant about this as I thought that a solution will be in sight as time goes by. However when some people post ridiculous statements that anything the does not work in Linux is crap, this reaction is bound to happen and all the drawbacks of FOSS will come out. What is the use of FOSS if it does not get peoples' work done and in a reasonably fast installation time.
On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:04:33 +0530, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com said:
The reason for this detailed description is to highlight that in Windows one simply runs the JRE exe and it is installed automatically.
Heavens. You have to download the exe manually from somewhere? or click on some untrusted source to get the JRE from?
% aptitude install sun-java5-jre or % aptitude install sun-java6-jre
(:-), for the humour impaired)
I did not rant about this as I thought that a solution will be in sight as time goes by. However when some people post ridiculous statements that anything the does not work in Linux is crap, this reaction is bound to happen and all the drawbacks of FOSS will come out. What is the use of FOSS if it does not get peoples' work done and in a reasonably fast installation time.
There is no computing environment where everything works perfectly. But in my experience, Debian does get the work done for me, which I can't get done otherwise, because either the functionality does not exist, or is too expensive, or can't be tailored to my needs.
How does one implement a non-bayesian OSB markov model Spam filtering on windows? How can one augment that with rules based checking, and perhaps a naive bayesian alternate? And how about adding selective grey listing? And SMTP time rejection of viruses?
On Debian, I use sendmail, mimedefang, spamassassin, clamav, and mailagent [0], and I have not discovered a false positive in over 30 months, and I get false negatives now at the rate of about 2 a week (700mails a day input -- [1]) -- and unsure messages of about 3-5/day, which I use to train the filters.
Seems like windows would let me down -- and windows has far more need of blocking the Spam.
Mind you, I am not saying that Debian would fit the needs of most people -- but the claim that closed source software gets things done and the free software community is always in catch-up mode is not something I can let go unchallenged.
manoj
[0]: http://www.golden-gryphon.com/blog/manoj/categories/spam.html [1]: http://www.golden-gryphon.com/mail/
Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:04:33 +0530, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com said:
The reason for this detailed description is to highlight that in Windows one simply runs the JRE exe and it is installed automatically.
Heavens. You have to download the exe manually from somewhere?or click on some untrusted source to get the JRE from?
What untrusted source, it was Sun's website. Do you make your own JRE at your place?
How does one implement a non-bayesian OSB markov model Spamfiltering on windows? How can one augment that with rules based checking, and perhaps a naive bayesian alternate? And how about adding selective grey listing? And SMTP time rejection of viruses?
On the server side, Linux rules and I have never disputed that. The discussion is about Desktops so stick to the topic.
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 00:28:11 +0530, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com said:
Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:04:33 +0530, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com said:
The reason for this detailed description is to highlight that in Windows one simply runs the JRE exe and it is installed automatically.
Heavens. You have to download the exe manually from somewhere? or click on some untrusted source to get the JRE from?
What untrusted source, it was Sun's website. Do you make your own JRE at your place?
If by my place you mean at Debian, yes. Not only is the source verified to come from Sun, it goes through testing by the Debian maintainer, the brave souls who test Experimental, the users of Sid .... and I can cryptographically verify that the stuff I get is the one that was tested by the folks I trust.
manoj
On 10/15/07, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
FOSS users have to be content to make sacrifices as they cannot do everything that can be done on CSS platforms. It is a conscious decision one has to take before migrating to FOSS. Just yesterday, I wanted to copy some video CDs but K3B in Kubuntu 6.10 and 6.06 threw up errors that it cannot read disks with multiple tracks. Finally I had to use my Windows XP to do it using Nero. There are many such instances where one is compelled to use the Windows platform to get their work done.
I hit similar problems when burning etch DVDs. Using wodim instead of growisofs 7.0 (k3b) did the trick.
Regards, Mohan S N
On Mon, 2007-10-15 at 22:37 +0530, Mohan Nayaka wrote:
On 10/15/07, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
FOSS users have to be content to make sacrifices as they cannot do everything that can be done on CSS platforms. It is a conscious decision one has to take before migrating to FOSS. Just yesterday, I wanted to copy some video CDs but K3B in Kubuntu 6.10 and 6.06 threw up errors that it cannot read disks with multiple tracks. Finally I had to use my Windows XP to do it using Nero. There are many such instances where one is compelled to use the Windows platform to get their work done.
I hit similar problems when burning etch DVDs. Using wodim instead of growisofs 7.0 (k3b) did the trick.
I've had similar problems as well. There are so many things that most people take for granted about Windows. It normally means extra effort when you're using a system like linux.
Take ergonomics for example. When I used to Windows, The system ensured that I took the prescribed number of breaks from using the keyboard and mouse. This damn linux thing refuses to crash! I'm forced to work all these extra hours.
What about maintaining my presence on the Internet. Windows would make sure that all my information is already there without my even having to consent to it. Linux forces me to input my data where ever I need to.
Social Networking - It was so nice to have so many people working with me on the Windows box. Now I have to be content with being the only one working on my lappy and look to third party sites for meeting people.
I'm sure I can list some more. Even at the application and user interface level.
The bottom line, though, is that it does take some effort to shift. It obviously would. When ever I'm forced to work on Windows now, I cringe. I'm sure all long time users of any non-Windows system would feel the same way.
No one ever professed to be making a Windows clone. In fact, just the opposite. You should be looking at what your goals are. The paths are not so important.
To make that a little more explicit, don't focus so much on _how_ you are going to get something done that you forget _what_ it is you need to do.
-gabin
On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 10:55:03AM +0530, Gabin Kattukaran wrote:
Take ergonomics for example. When I used to Windows, The system ensured that I took the prescribed number of breaks from using the keyboard and mouse. This damn linux thing refuses to crash! I'm forced to work all these extra hours.
You should use something more bleeding edge and be a beta tester. But even then, if you track something like Debian sid, you would really have to earn yourself a break by breaking your system. It's tough! :-)
What about maintaining my presence on the Internet. Windows would make sure that all my information is already there without my even having to consent to it. Linux forces me to input my data where ever I need to.
Probably people should start FOSS spyware, which publishes things online involuntarily. For example, Fedora shouldn't ask whether you permit them to see your hardware; Debian shouldn't ask whether they can have a list of the packages you have installed (popcon) etc.
I'm sure I can list some more. Even at the application and user interface level.
First of all, it takes time to learn things like Vim or Emacs, though gedit and kwrite are enough for many. But here's an interesting one from an Emacs user: My left control key `label' has literally rubbed off. My keyboard is 2 years old. My friend's keyboard, which is 5+ years old, has no key in such a bad state.
The bottom line, though, is that it does take some effort to shift. It obviously would. When ever I'm forced to work on Windows now, I cringe. I'm sure all long time users of any non-Windows system would feel the same way.
It's about patience, persistence and perseverance, combined with a lot of time. many people aren't willing to invest in those, especially after having invested them in ``the other OS''.
This is just my view of things...
Kumar
Gabin Kattukaran wrote:
I've had similar problems as well. There are so many things that most people take for granted about Windows. It normally means extra effort when you're using a system like linux.
Take ergonomics for example. When I used to Windows, The system ensured that I took the prescribed number of breaks from using the keyboard and mouse. This damn linux thing refuses to crash! I'm forced to work all these extra hours.
Thanks to Linux, I am forced to take breaks. Whenever I open a multi-page pdf file, it hangs into a runaway process and I am forced to reboot my computer and re-download the pdf. Windows is so boring, I simply double click on that file and it opens up without any fuss. I also find my Linux hanging when I open Firefox, OO and Thunderbird together. Windows just does not listen and opens them up side by side.
What about maintaining my presence on the Internet. Windows would make sure that all my information is already there without my even having to consent to it. Linux forces me to input my data where ever I need to.
I never had this problem in windows. I used an interactive firewall. In linux I cannot control what goes out of my system. The firewall works one way only.
Social Networking - It was so nice to have so many people working with me on the Windows box. Now I have to be content with being the only one working on my lappy and look to third party sites for meeting people.
Nope, not true in my case.
The bottom line is that windows and linux have their set of problems, so bashing Windows does not solve Linux problems.
On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 04:16:02PM +0530, Rony wrote:
Thanks to Linux, I am forced to take breaks. Whenever I open a multi-page pdf file, it hangs into a runaway process and I am forced to reboot my computer and re-download the pdf. Windows is so boring, I simply double click on that file and it opens up without any fuss. I also find my Linux hanging when I open Firefox, OO and Thunderbird together. Windows just does not listen and opens them up side by side.
Do you file bugs on these packages for your distribution?
I never had this problem in windows. I used an interactive firewall. In linux I cannot control what goes out of my system. The firewall works one way only.
I think this is totally wrong. You can block outgoing packets, but I don't know much about this. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
The bottom line is that windows and linux have their set of problems, so bashing Windows does not solve Linux problems.
Amen to that. Also, one solution which works for me is not necessarily good for you, and vice versa.
Kumar
On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:16:02 +0530, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com said:
Gabin Kattukaran wrote:
I've had similar problems as well. There are so many things that most people take for granted about Windows. It normally means extra effort when you're using a system like linux.
Take ergonomics for example. When I used to Windows, The system ensured that I took the prescribed number of breaks from using the keyboard and mouse. This damn linux thing refuses to crash! I'm forced to work all these extra hours.
Thanks to Linux, I am forced to take breaks. Whenever I open a multi-page pdf file, it hangs into a runaway process and I am forced to reboot my computer and re-download the pdf. Windows is so boring, I simply double click on that file and it opens up without any fuss. I also find my Linux hanging when I open Firefox, OO and Thunderbird together. Windows just does not listen and opens them up side by side.
Err, what? What kernel are you using? and what distro? I find Linux far less bloated than windows, and far more responsive (love the new CFS).
I have dbdesigner, three gimp files, firefox, several emacs frames, 8 xterms, and bouml all open right now, as I compose this email.
I never had this problem in windows. I used an interactive firewall. In linux I cannot control what goes out of my system. The firewall works one way only.
You have evidently not discovered shorewall. Name me one windows product that has built in support for port knocking.
Package: shorewall Description: Shoreline Firewall, a high-level tool for configuring Netfilter Shorewall allows you to describe your firewall/gateway requirements using entries in a set of configuration files. It reads those configuration files and, with the help of the iptables utility, configures Netfilter to match your requirements. . Shorewall supports a wide range of router/firewall/gateway applications, traffic shaping and almost every type of VPN.
I have been able to set up port forwards, source NATs, destination NAT's, virtual machines providing services with full connectivity (by putting 2 IP addresses on my NIC), adaptively firewalling abusers of non-port-knocked ports by using fail2ban.
Package: fail2ban Description: bans IPs that cause multiple authentication errors Monitors log files (e.g. /var/log/auth.log, /var/log/apache/access.log) and temporarily or persistently bans failure-prone addresses by updating existing firewall rules. Allows easy specification of different actions to be taken such as to ban an IP using iptables or hostsdeny rules, or simply to send a notification email. Currently, by default, supports ssh/apache/vsftpd but configuration can be easily extended for monitoring any other ASCII file. All filters and actions are given in the config files, thus fail2ban can be adopted to be used with a variety of files and firewalls.
manoj
On 16-Oct-07, at 7:31 PM, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
Package: shorewall Description: Shoreline Firewall, a high-level tool for configuring Netfilter Shorewall allows you to describe your firewall/gateway requirements using entries in a set of configuration files. It reads those configuration files and, with the help of the iptables utility, configures Netfilter to match your requirements.
shorewall rocks bigtime
Dear list-admin, sorry for the top post. Airtel Blackberry doesn't allow me to do this any other way. -gabin.
Rony, Dude! Were you involved in some seriously bad juju in a past life? I'm nowhere as clued in as Manoj appears to be but...
I just use an almost default Ubuntu Gutsy install on an HP lappy. Have been on it since Fiesty was released. Will move on to Hardy when they release Gutsy. My servers use the last Ubuntu LTS and some (I really don't know which) version of Fedora. We've been chugging along for at least the past couple of years without any major incident.
I'm really troubled by your experiences. Is it just an absurd series of coincidences? Or, should we refer your case to Richard Dawkins as a case of the seriously para-normal?
Normally, I wouldn't do this but....
May I suggest an intervention (in the proper American Fundamentalist Christian sense of the word)? Please let some lug'ers have a look at your setup. I'll even volunteer my very own personal time. I'm positive some others will also gladly volunteer. If we can convince you, I'm sure a major battle in the war for freedom can be declared as 'won!'
List out your requirements and we'll (or at leat, I'll ) set it up for you with a word of honour that your install will run without any hicouhgs for a mutually agreed pre-determined duration.
-gabin
--
This too shall pass.
-----Original Message----- From: Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:16:02 To:"GNU/Linux Users Group, Mumbai, India" linuxers@mm.glug-bom.org Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] Fwd: [Ilug-cal-discuss] Introduction to Inkscape-Graphic Design and publishing with Free / Open Source Software
Gabin Kattukaran wrote:
I've had similar problems as well. There are so many things that most people take for granted about Windows. It normally means extra effort when you're using a system like linux.
Take ergonomics for example. When I used to Windows, The system ensured that I took the prescribed number of breaks from using the keyboard and mouse. This damn linux thing refuses to crash! I'm forced to work all these extra hours.
Thanks to Linux, I am forced to take breaks. Whenever I open a multi-page pdf file, it hangs into a runaway process and I am forced to reboot my computer and re-download the pdf. Windows is so boring, I simply double click on that file and it opens up without any fuss. I also find my Linux hanging when I open Firefox, OO and Thunderbird together. Windows just does not listen and opens them up side by side.
What about maintaining my presence on the Internet. Windows would make sure that all my information is already there without my even having to consent to it. Linux forces me to input my data where ever I need to.
I never had this problem in windows. I used an interactive firewall. In linux I cannot control what goes out of my system. The firewall works one way only.
Social Networking - It was so nice to have so many people working with me on the Windows box. Now I have to be content with being the only one working on my lappy and look to third party sites for meeting people.
Nope, not true in my case.
The bottom line is that windows and linux have their set of problems, so bashing Windows does not solve Linux problems.
On 16-Oct-07, at 7:27 PM, Gabin Kattukaran wrote:
List out your requirements and we'll (or at leat, I'll ) set it up for you with a word of honour that your install will run without any hicouhgs for a mutually agreed pre-determined duration.
he is not talking about *his* install. He deals in hardware and is talking about his frustrations in trying to get his customers to switch to linux without losing his customers. So you need to go along with him to his customers and make them happy
On Wed, 2007-10-17 at 07:13 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 16-Oct-07, at 7:27 PM, Gabin Kattukaran wrote:
List out your requirements and we'll (or at leat, I'll ) set it up for you with a word of honour that your install will run without any hicouhgs for a mutually agreed pre-determined duration.
he is not talking about *his* install. He deals in hardware and is talking about his frustrations in trying to get his customers to switch to linux without losing his customers. So you need to go along with him to his customers and make them happy
That makes it a little more complicated, doesn't it?
So, let's see if this can be done in a more structured manner. (Clearly, exchanging anecdotes won't get us anywhere.)
There appears to be two clear kinds of issues.
The first - my linux app does not behave in a manner similar to my windows app. This, as pointed out by JTD, is not really a linux problem or even a problem at all. No two apps even on the same platform can't be expected to present identical interfaces. Each app has its own vision, philosophies, goals etc. As a user, you pick the app that comes closest to your own. Complaining that <esc>:q does not work on emacs won't you anywhere.
The second - random snafus on an installed system is more difficult to handle. Having, presumably, done many installs, you would be in the best position to try and recognise patterns. Given that there is a significant population that does not face the problems that your customers do, there has to be some rational explanation. Of course, you should not forget that many users (people like your customers, not lug'ers or power users) are probably going to face similar problems on a Windows system as well. They just don't get highlighted for several reasons. So, have you seen any patterns? Or, are they as just random? If there are patterns, I'm sure we can find fixes. I should say that the fix may not be a software fix. It could just as well be an attitude fix or a usage style fix in the user :)
-gabin
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
he is not talking about *his* install. He deals in hardware and is talking about his frustrations in trying to get his customers to switch to linux without losing his customers. So you need to go along with him to his customers and make them happy
I see that most of Rony's mails pertain to various issues with Ubuntu and different hardware. Assuming that Ubuntu is a preferred OS for Rony, how many of these issues have been structured to reach Ubuntu teams involved in figuring what next to put into the OS ? While there might be Ubuntu developers lurking on this list *and* Rony might not be inclined to file issues (which if he did would be ideal) there has to be a structured collation of the pain points.
Pre-loading of Linux OS on the desktop is sooner or later going to be the new battleground and then it would start pouring issues pertaining to scanners, web cameras, barcode readers, thermal printers, credit card machines and what not. Irrespective of whether it is a Windows deployment or a Linux one, the person taking charge of the installation and maintenance approaches the work with a plan that includes an assessment of what works. Sometimes, one does not have the luxury to tell a potential client that "do away with this crud peripheral since it does not work on Linux and get a new one". But the very fact that a particular piece won't work on Linux is something that needs to be recorded someplace. A mailing list archive unfortunately is not the place for such records. For example, it would be nice to know as to what caused OS inactivity/hang when he was doing OO.o and a few other applications.
On 10/20/07, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay sankarshan.mukhopadhyay@gmail.com wrote:
Pre-loading of Linux OS on the desktop is sooner or later going to be the new battleground and then it would start pouring issues
Heard from an HCL (or was it HP?) authorised dealer: people buy our Linux PCs as they are cheaper, and then format the hard disk to install XP. That is the real skirmish line.
Nishit Dave wrote:
Heard from an HCL (or was it HP?) authorised dealer: people buy our Linux PCs as they are cheaper, and then format the hard disk to install XP. That is the real skirmish line.
Maybe the dealer has to front for MS too? I have helped put Ubuntu on a Compaq Presario and Fedora 7 on an Acer. Both the guys are non-IT - well, electrical engineers who are adept at computers - but you get the point. The Presario had Vista which was removed completely. The Acer has Linpus, also removed. Both laptops are working at 100%.
Linux compatible hardware or even its cost is no longer a battle. When I left my friend's house, he was going "Wow!" (tm) over the Compiz (on Fedora 7) effects. We just have to let people know there's a choice to Windows.
Gabin Kattukaran wrote:
Dear list-admin, sorry for the top post. Airtel Blackberry doesn't allow me to do this any other way. -gabin.
Rony, Dude! Were you involved in some seriously bad juju in a past life? I'm nowhere as clued in as Manoj appears to be but...
Dude, when I need your help I will ask you.
On Tuesday 16 October 2007 16:16, Rony wrote:
Gabin Kattukaran wrote:
I've had similar problems as well. There are so many things that most people take for granted about Windows. It normally means extra effort when you're using a system like linux.
Take ergonomics for example. When I used to Windows, The system ensured that I took the prescribed number of breaks from using the keyboard and mouse. This damn linux thing refuses to crash! I'm forced to work all these extra hours.
Thanks to Linux, I am forced to take breaks. Whenever I open a multi-page pdf file, it hangs into a runaway process and I am forced to reboot my computer and re-download the pdf. Windows is so boring, I simply double click on that file and it opens up without any fuss. I also find my Linux hanging when I open Firefox, OO and Thunderbird together. Windows just does not listen and opens them up side by side.
Being as clueless as you are, it's a small woder that your installs boot at all.
I never had this problem in windows. I used an interactive firewall. In linux I cannot control what goes out of my system. The firewall works one way only.
PLEEASE dont setup firewalls on linux.
Social Networking - It was so nice to have so many people working with me on the Windows box. Now I have to be content with being the only one working on my lappy and look to third party sites for meeting people.
Nope, not true in my case.
Ignorance is bliss. Way to go.
The bottom line is that windows and linux have their set of problems, so bashing Windows does not solve Linux problems.
But teaching yourself will most certainly remove your "linux" problems.
On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:55:03 +0530, Gabin Kattukaran boon@vsnl.com said:
On Mon, 2007-10-15 at 22:37 +0530, Mohan Nayaka wrote:
On 10/15/07, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
FOSS users have to be content to make sacrifices as they cannot do everything that can be done on CSS platforms. It is a conscious decision one has to take before migrating to FOSS. Just yesterday, I wanted to copy some video CDs but K3B in Kubuntu 6.10 and 6.06 threw up errors that it cannot read disks with multiple tracks. Finally I had to use my Windows XP to do it using Nero. There are many such instances where one is compelled to use the Windows platform to get their work done.
I hit similar problems when burning etch DVDs. Using wodim instead of growisofs 7.0 (k3b) did the trick.
I've had similar problems as well. There are so many things that most people take for granted about Windows. It normally means extra effort when you're using a system like linux.
My wife was trying to burn a DVD on windows trhe other day. Crashed her XP bos. ANd then the software would refuse to copy some files. And refused to recognize the blank DVD. I had to burn the DVD on Debian after that.
You should hear how often word screw up formatting for stuff send by other word users who are using differet versions of word.
Take ergonomics for example. When I used to Windows, The system ensured that I took the prescribed number of breaks from using the keyboard and mouse. This damn linux thing refuses to crash! I'm forced to work all these extra hours.
xwrits helps. Package: xwrits escription: reminds you to take a break from typing xwrits helps you prevent repetitive stress injury. . xwrits is a small reminder program designed to let you know it is time to take a break from typing to rest your wrists and prevent any damage to your wrists (or at least make them feel better if you've already damaged them). Normally works on the honor system, but if you find yourself unable to stop typing during your break, it can also lock your keyboard.
What is the windows equivalent for xwrits (apart from crashes)?
manoj
Manoj Srivastava wrote:
My wife was trying to burn a DVD on windows trhe other day.Crashed her XP bos. ANd then the software would refuse to copy some files. And refused to recognize the blank DVD. I had to burn the DVD on Debian after that.
It is surprising that after being a power user and an expert in Linux, you still have a Windows partition in your system and it is used too. If linux experts ( I mean all experts) find Windows crappy, then why do they still have the partition in their systems?
At my place, I got a legal XP pro regularly updated and running since many years but nobody is allowed to use it and everyone has to compulsorily use Linux, except in extreme cases where even I cannot get that job done the Linux way. Even for documents they have to use open formats only. For some reason my printer sharing does not work in Linux and Windows is only a few clicks away, still everyone has to save their files on a pen drive and bring it to the main system in Linux only. Even digital camera pics have to be downloaded in Linux only.
You should hear how often word screw up formatting for stuffsend by other word users who are using differet versions of word.
A few years ago, I recollect upgrading my OOo to the latest version and a .doc file created in the earlier OO got its columns messed up in the latest version.
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:00:21 +0530, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com said:
Manoj Srivastava wrote:
My wife was trying to burn a DVD on windows trhe other day. Crashed her XP bos. ANd then the software would refuse to copy some files. And refused to recognize the blank DVD. I had to burn the DVD on Debian after that.
It is surprising that after being a power user and an expert in Linux, you still have a Windows partition in your system and it is used too. If linux experts ( I mean all experts) find Windows crappy, then why do they still have the partition in their systems?
This is called jumping to assumptions, and reflects sloppy thinking.
My wife does not use my machines; she has machines at the work that the university has assigned to her.
You should hear how often word screw up formatting for stuff send by other word users who are using differet versions of word.
A few years ago, I recollect upgrading my OOo to the latest version and a .doc file created in the earlier OO got its columns messed up in the latest version.
Years ago, eh? I find word messes up formats to this day.
manoj
Poor old Inkscape ignited the flame of this intellectual war of two _worlds_ (Platforms); that is now going on a roller coaster ride and in some time, the warriors would totally forget why the war started but still keep fighting! :D
Ahem, coming to the point, shouldn't we rather channelise our energies towards making *all* these prominent platforms work together seamlessly, at least pointing to ways to achieve that objective? Well no matter how hard every linuxer tries, every computer user on earth won't shift to Linux!! Well I love my GNU box but to be frank I used Windoze without a single glitch since the last 4 yrs! Not a single reformat, reinstall, "virus epidemic" or any destructive maintenance operation for that matter! And I believe it will always be the same for my Linux box unless i remain utterly careless and ignorant about its functioning. So, thats the point. If well maintained, both these systems work to satisfactory level of efficiency.
Then, whats with this mile long thread? :-/
Regards :o)
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:25:18 +0530, Unknown unknown@unknown.invalid said:
Ahem, coming to the point, shouldn't we rather channelise our energies towards making *all* these prominent platforms work together seamlessly, at least pointing to ways to achieve that objective?
No. I am not going to spend any energy supporting, or promoting non-free software or non-free platforms. Your mileage may of course vary; but my goals are closely related to freedom of software long-term, not short term expediency.
Well no matter how hard every linuxer tries, every computer user on earth won't shift to Linux!!
That's their problem.
Well I love my GNU box but to be frank I used Windoze without a single glitch since the last 4 yrs! Not a single reformat, reinstall, "virus epidemic" or any destructive maintenance operation for that matter! And I believe it will always be the same for my Linux box unless i remain utterly careless and ignorant about its functioning. So, thats the point. If well maintained, both these systems work to satisfactory level of efficiency.
Closed systems, while trampling of freedoms of the user, might well work withing parameters. That in no way means I am going to spend any effort supporting them, or trying to interact with them.
I am not opposing other people doing what they want; I just strongly reject that that is what people in a free software related forum should be working towards.
manoj
On 10/18/07, Manoj Srivastava srivasta@debian.org wrote:
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:25:18 +0530, Unknown unknown@unknown.invalid said:
Ahem, coming to the point, shouldn't we rather channelise our energies towards making *all* these prominent platforms work together seamlessly, at least pointing to ways to achieve that objective?
No. I am not going to spend any energy supporting, or promotingnon-free software or non-free platforms. Your mileage may of course
What do you think is wrong with doing that?
vary; but my goals are closely related to freedom of software long-term, not short term expediency.
As far as goals are concerned, we concur!
Well no matter how hard every linuxer tries, every computer user on earth won't shift to Linux!!
That's their problem.[...] remain utterly careless and ignorant about its functioning. So, thats the point. If well maintained, both these systems work to satisfactory level of efficiency.
Closed systems, while trampling of freedoms of the user, mightwell work withing parameters. That in no way means I am going to spend any effort supporting them, or trying to interact with them.
That said, you're treating FOSS as hardcore religion, and religion today, sir, is mostly *used* for all the wrong reasons!
I am not opposing other people doing what they want; I juststrongly reject that that is what people in a free software related forum should be working towards.
Definitely not _promoting_ non-free software! But yes being able to interact with them or their output formats gives me, as a Linux user, some added advantage, some more power and *freedom* for sure!
Regards
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 03:07:22 +0530, Unknown unknown@unknown.invalid said:
On 10/18/07, Manoj Srivastava srivasta@debian.org wrote:
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:25:18 +0530, Unknown unknown@unknown.invalid said:
Ahem, coming to the point, shouldn't we rather channelise our energies towards making *all* these prominent platforms work together seamlessly, at least pointing to ways to achieve that objective?
No. I am not going to spend any energy supporting, or promoting non-free software or non-free platforms. Your mileage may of course
What do you think is wrong with doing that?
Because I think that closed software prevents the standing on shoulder of giants thing. Most research is freely available -- and is used by other people in their own research, as long as proper citations are included. This means that everyone is not stuck reinventing the wheel -- imagine if all research were based on stuff already old and in textbooks.
Free software is like that -- and closed software prevents the synergistic improvements possible when code and ideas flow freely.
vary; but my goals are closely related to freedom of software long-term, not short term expediency.
As far as goals are concerned, we concur!
Closed systems, while trampling of freedoms of the user, might well work withing parameters. That in no way means I am going to spend any effort supporting them, or trying to interact with them.
That said, you're treating FOSS as hardcore religion, and religion today, sir, is mostly *used* for all the wrong reasons!
Rubbish. I have solid, pragmatic reasons behind my opinions -- not superstitious dogma. Just because passion enters ito the picture does not mean that the rationale is not sound -- you are jumping to conclusions.
I am not opposing other people doing what they want; I just strongly reject that that is what people in a free software related forum should be working towards.
Definitely not _promoting_ non-free software! But yes being able to interact with them or their output formats gives me, as a Linux user, some added advantage, some more power and *freedom* for sure!
I beg to differ. Snorting cocaine also gives a short term feeling of energy and creativity, but is detrimental in the long run. Conspiring with software hoarders, who hoard software and knowledge for profit, and buying the cool-aid, is not of any long term utility.
manoj
Manoj Srivastava wrote:
I beg to differ. Snorting cocaine also gives a short termfeeling of energy and creativity, but is detrimental in the long run. Conspiring with software hoarders, who hoard software and knowledge for profit, and buying the cool-aid, is not of any long term utility.
Snorting cocaine is a bad example. No one snorts cocaine to get his work done or use it as a business tool. Software is a tool to do work.
Closed software is a tool that gets your work done but you cannot examine it and will never know the flaws in it. You cannot make copies of this tool nor can you modify it to improvise it. Every year, the tool is deliberately made obsolete by the manufacturer and he forces its users to buy the new models. The new tools are now being sold as a service, so with the tool you buy, you even have to allow the manufacturer to let his person/s constantly reside in your office to keep track of what you are doing. That person will hold the key to the locker that stores the tool.
Libre software is not only a tool but you have access to the die that made it. As you use and study the tool, you can make changes to its die to suit your requirements and make it better for others too. You can make more tools from this new die and distribute it freely to the community. After you, the next generation will handle the tools and inherit the die and they will make changes to it. Thus the die is like a libre heirloom passed on from one to another with the obligation of providing the same inheritance of the die to that person who is passed on the tool.
On 10/18/07, Manoj Srivastava srivasta@debian.org wrote:
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 03:07:22 +0530, Unknown unknown@unknown.invalid said:
I beg to differ. Snorting cocaine also gives a short termfeeling of energy and creativity, but is detrimental in the long run. Conspiring with software hoarders, who hoard software and knowledge for profit, and buying the cool-aid, is not of any long term utility.
Agreed. _No long term utility_! The value and wealth of knowledge might eventually get lost in the long run. But going by that philosophy, people should start teaching their kids at home because all educational institutes, coaching institutes, private tuitions, schools even, are also amongst those who sell knowledge, charge a fortune to teach a kid basic maths and alphabet that can be learnt at home!!! So. Is sending your kid to school equivalent to *conspiring* with hoarders of knowledge? [i think yes, coz if you teach your kid upto second grade and want to get him into the third grade in some school, you don't have much choice, and i visualize it exactly as using a closed software with their indiscernible policies and EULAs, but don't we utilize that _service_ from the schools (that are mere vendors today)?]
Is going to a mechanic to get your vehicle repaired equivalent to *conspiring* with hoarders of knowledge? He would most probably *not* tell you what he was thinking and how he repaired your vehicle unless, of course, he's a linuxer! :)) Probably not! That can't be called a conspiracy. Because at times you prefer to buy a product or service rather than spending time getting under the hood yourself (in general, unless you are a hardcore DIY guy)! Of course, the vendor will have to draw the line somewhere when he's earning his bread and butter by some sort of knowledge hoarding. And there, he might be wrong! Does that mean you'll stop going to mechanics for good because once upon a time, some mechanic took you for a ride? [Note: Just an analogy. No offense intended]
On 10/18/07, Kamaleshwar Morjal [कमलेश्वर मोरजाल] < kamaleshwar.morjal@gmail.com> wrote:
But going by that philosophy, people should start teaching their kids at home because all educational institutes, coaching institutes, private tuitions, schools even, are also amongst those who sell knowledge, charge a fortune to teach a kid basic maths and alphabet that can be learnt at home!!!
I guess you are confusing between Free as in Beer Vs Free as in Freedom. Free Software does not prevent you from making money from it.
Regards Aseem
On 10/18/07, Aseem Rane aseemrane@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/18/07, Kamaleshwar Morjal [कमलेश्वर मोरजाल] < kamaleshwar.morjal@gmail.com> wrote:
But going by that philosophy, people should start teaching their kids at home because all educational institutes, coaching institutes, private tuitions, schools even, are also amongst those who sell knowledge, charge a fortune to teach a kid basic maths and alphabet that can be learnt at home!!!
I guess you are confusing between Free as in Beer Vs Free as in Freedom. Free Software does not prevent you from making money from it.
Aaah The classic "Free as in _free_ Beer Vs Free as in Freedom" line! :) No, i am not confused! The analogy, although might be inefficient as it can be easily misunderstood or (for that matter) played/tampered with. But i think you removed the part in which i clarified more elaborately what i was thinking. :) I would prefer *freedom* over *free beer* anytime. :)
Regards.
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:58:29 +0530, Unknown unknown@unknown.invalid said:
On 10/18/07, Manoj Srivastava srivasta@debian.org wrote:
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 03:07:22 +0530, Unknown unknown@unknown.invalid said:
I beg to differ. Snorting cocaine also gives a short term feeling of energy and creativity, but is detrimental in the long run. Conspiring with software hoarders, who hoard software and knowledge for profit, and buying the cool-aid, is not of any long term utility.
Agreed. _No long term utility_! The value and wealth of knowledge might eventually get lost in the long run. But going by that philosophy, people should start teaching their kids at home because all educational institutes, coaching institutes, private tuitions, schools even, are also amongst those who sell knowledge, charge a fortune to teach a kid basic maths and alphabet that can be learnt at home!!! So. Is sending your kid to school equivalent to *conspiring* with hoarders of knowledge? [i think yes, coz if you teach your kid upto second grade and want to get him into the third grade in some school, you don't have much choice, and i visualize it exactly as using a closed software with their indiscernible policies and EULAs, but don't we utilize that _service_ from the schools (that are mere vendors today)?]
You seem to be unable to distinguish between paying for a service (teaching the kid, setting the pace of learning, and giving and grading exams) with hoarding knowledge. Schools do not hoarde knowledge; children (well, at least here in the US) can and are home schooled.
Care to come up with a better counter example?
Is going to a mechanic to get your vehicle repaired equivalent to *conspiring* with hoarders of knowledge? He would most probably *not* tell you what he was thinking and how he repaired your vehicle unless, of course, he's a linuxer! :)) Probably not! That can't be called a conspiracy. Because at times you prefer to buy a product or service rather than spending time getting under the hood yourself (in general, unless you are a hardcore DIY guy)! Of course, the vendor will have to draw the line somewhere when he's earning his bread and butter by some sort of knowledge hoarding. And there, he might be wrong! Does that mean you'll stop going to mechanics for good because once upon a time, some mechanic took you for a ride? [Note: Just an analogy. No offense intended]
Again, sloppy thinking. The mechanic hoards no knowledge (though some car manufacturers do) -- the mechanic provides services for hire.
Unless you can come up with actual analogies that relate to my position, I suggest taking this off line -- these messages have gone way off topic.
manoj
Kamaleshwar Morjal [कमलेश्वर मोरजाल] wrote:
On 10/18/07, Manoj Srivastava srivasta@debian.org wrote:
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 03:07:22 +0530, Unknown unknown@unknown.invalid said:
I beg to differ. Snorting cocaine also gives a short termfeeling of energy and creativity, but is detrimental in the long run. Conspiring with software hoarders, who hoard software and knowledge for profit, and buying the cool-aid, is not of any long term utility.
Agreed. _No long term utility_! The value and wealth of knowledge might eventually get lost in the long run. But going by that philosophy, people should start teaching their kids at home because all educational institutes, coaching institutes, private tuitions, schools even, are also amongst those who sell knowledge, charge a fortune to teach a kid basic maths and alphabet that can be learnt at home!!! So. Is sending your kid to school equivalent to *conspiring* with hoarders of knowledge? [i think yes, coz if you teach your kid upto second grade and want to get him into the third grade in some school, you don't have much choice, and i visualize it exactly as using a closed software with their indiscernible policies and EULAs, but don't we utilize that _service_ from the schools (that are mere vendors today)?]
Hoarding of knowledge means you don't give access to it except on your terms. Schools and tuition classes follow openly prescribed curriculum and the text books too are openly available. So the school is only providing a service that we are well capable of providing, ourselves.
However, today as knowledge gets digitised, it is the software company that acts as the provider of the tool to access this knowledge. If the software company uses restrictive practices to prevent everyone from using the access tools, like charging heavy prices, changing data formats every year and demanding ransom for opening the locks to the data, then such practices come under hoarding of knowledge.
Another example of knowledge hoarding would be the pharmaceutical giants who are sitting on patents for life saving medicines and sell the medicines at astronomical prices. If they release the details of the drugs, other companies can make generic versions of it and prices would be very low, but they don't want that to happen. They are hoarding knowledge even after knowing that millions could die simply because they cannot have access to their medicines.
In case of the mechanic, the vehicle itself is open to study and you can repair it yourself if you study it. And if you don't like one mechanic, you can go to another. Here there is no restriction on who is allowed to touch your vehicle except in warranty. The only way hoarding of knowledge may take place is if the vehicle has some sealed black box parts that can be opened or replaced only by company authorised centres and they charge a bomb for it or out of the blue say that the part is no longer available and that's the end of the journey for that vehicle.
On 10/18/07, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
Kamaleshwar Morjal [कमलेश्वर मोरजाल] wrote:
On 10/18/07, Manoj Srivastava srivasta@debian.org wrote:
Hoarding of knowledge means you don't give access to it except on your terms. Schools and tuition classes follow openly prescribed curriculum and the text books too are openly available. So the school is only providing a service that we are well capable of providing, ourselves.
However, today as knowledge gets digitised, it is the software company that acts as the provider of the tool to access this knowledge. If the software company uses restrictive practices to prevent everyone from using the access tools, like charging heavy prices, changing data formats every year and demanding ransom for opening the locks to the data, then such practices come under hoarding of knowledge.
Another example of knowledge hoarding would be the pharmaceutical giants who are sitting on patents for life saving medicines and sell the medicines at astronomical prices. If they release the details of the drugs, other companies can make generic versions of it and prices would be very low, but they don't want that to happen. They are hoarding knowledge even after knowing that millions could die simply because they cannot have access to their medicines.
In case of the mechanic, the vehicle itself is open to study and you can repair it yourself if you study it. And if you don't like one mechanic, you can go to another. Here there is no restriction on who is allowed to touch your vehicle except in warranty. The only way hoarding of knowledge may take place is if the vehicle has some sealed black box parts that can be opened or replaced only by company authorised centres and they charge a bomb for it or out of the blue say that the part is no longer available and that's the end of the journey for that vehicle.
--
Hey thanks a ton. Was enlightening and i realize that i picked the wrong analogies. But i really wonder if i would/should stop all interaction with another computer user only because he is a victim of a software hoarder, by chance or choice or may be need! who knows? Or should we work towards supporting all the formats, that allow such interaction without any legal hassles at least! That seems to be a matter of personal preference! Anyways, this thread provided me with some more insight into the FOSS world and people dedicated towards it :) Nothing more to say on this thread, i guess. Signing off. :)
Regards.
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 00:18:00 +0530, Unknown unknown@unknown.invalid said:
Hey thanks a ton. Was enlightening and i realize that i picked the wrong analogies. But i really wonder if i would/should stop all interaction with another computer user only because he is a victim of a software hoarder, by chance or choice or may be need! who knows?
Why do you persist on making caricatures of whatever intellectual stance you might be espousing? Who talked about "stop all interaction"? Or can you really not see the difference between not wanting to work towards supporting non-free so non-free software and stopping all interactions?
With all this hyperbole and caricatures and posing, it is impossible to hold a rational conversation with you. Or perhaps that is what you desire?
Or should we work towards supporting all the formats, that allow such interaction without any legal hassles at least!
No. I am certainly not going to support non-free software in my spare time, and on my own dime. If people want support, from me, for non-free formats, then I'd be happy to make my hourly rate available; and when they are paying me they can ask me to support whatever format they desire.
manoj
Kamaleshwar Morjal [कमलेश्वर मोरजाल] wrote:
Hey thanks a ton. Was enlightening and i realize that i picked the wrong analogies. But i really wonder if i would/should stop all interaction with another computer user only because he is a victim of a software hoarder, by chance or choice or may be need! who knows? Or should we work towards supporting all the formats, that allow such interaction without any legal hassles at least! That seems to be a matter of personal preference! Anyways, this thread provided me with some more insight into the FOSS world and people dedicated towards it :) Nothing more to say on this thread, i guess. Signing off. :)
The problem is that formats that allow interaction without legal hassles are not a favourite with CSS companies, who create closed data formats that act like locks to your own data and they provide the keys to unlock the data after receiving the ransom. You will come across various opinions so you will have to make the choice after studying all angles. :)
On Wednesday 17 October 2007 22:25, Kamaleshwar Morjal [कमलेश्वर मोरजाल] wrote:
Poor old Inkscape ignited the flame of this intellectual war of two _worlds_ (Platforms); that is now going on a roller coaster ride and in some time, the warriors would totally forget why the war started but still keep fighting! :D
The ones who think about this or that missing feature are the ones who keep missing the big picture, which is the nxt point u raise
Ahem, coming to the point, shouldn't we rather channelise our energies towards making *all* these prominent platforms work together seamlessly, at least pointing to ways to achieve that objective?
Welcome to the real world my friend. That is exactly what many foss projects try to do - with most resources deliberately debarred for their use. Things like patented standards, NDAs for hardware that will expose coders to lawsuits for disclosing patented technology, software patents, totally rubbish prior art patent - there is one filed recently against RH and Novell for some sort of windowing system, even though simliar prior art existed since 79 8 yrs earlier than the patent filing date of 87. The shenanigans of M$ even when compelled by courts to disclose prtocols and their vile stance on doc formats are all too well known except to the idiots who keep making statements like "xyz is not ready for use" .
There are even more complex issues about copyright laws, patents and ip. these impact foss projects (and individuals) greatly because of the nature of public contributions, distribution and use. And they are all totally and absolutely dependent on the one point everyone loves to hate - freedom. what's the use of freedom when you cant do this or that shows the utter lack of understanding the very basis of ones existence.
On 10/15/07, Rony <> wrote:
There are many such instances where one is compelled to use the Windows platform to get their work done.
Now I am pretty happy with my Linux installation otherwise, but in order to video chat with my sis in US who is on windows I have to go back to Windows as neither skype, or yahoo msngr support video on linux.
I dont know much about Qt or video conferencing software but any pointers on if its possible for some else to add video conf to these apps would be really helpful. I would at least want to attempt doing it.
Any suggestions on which others softwares are available for Linux-Windows video conferencing?
Thanks,
--
Regards,
Rony.
Knock Knock Who's There? Linux Who Linux? GNU/Linux
On 10/17/07, Puneet Lakhina puneet.lakhina@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/15/07, Rony <> wrote:
There are many such instances where one is compelled to use the Windows platform to get their work done.
Any suggestions on which others softwares are available for Linux-Windows video conferencing?
I sense a hijack , but wengophone works nicely.
regards, C
On Sunday 14 October 2007 21:32, Rony wrote:
jtd wrote:
On Friday 12 October 2007 18:10, vivek khurana wrote:
On 10/12/07, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
You can switch now and save yourself a load of pain 2 yrs downhill or not at all and sink in the lake with the millstone firmly tied to your head.
We keep hearing this every year and life just goes on smoothly in the CSS world. (Closed Source Software) Doomsday gets an extension every year.
Good for you. wait until u are shot. Like one of my clients machines was last week. Luckily for him the linux partition recovered his data. And now 2 yrs after he was advised to train himsel on linux, he is starting to do so. In the mean time he is thoroughly crippled for the 2nd week running. 2yrs ago 3 to 4 weeks of work would have enabled him to rid himself of doze. But he thought that he did not have the time.
c) Will you use Oo, if Oo failed to export files in any format other than odf ? Not even RTF or text or HTML ?
Moot question. Oo exports in all open formats and several closed ones too. So does inkscape.
Inkscape is the libre equivalent of Corel Draw and the industry uses the .cdr format, which is not recognised by Inkscape.
cdr. format is afaik patent encumbered. If you wrote code to read or write you are likely to be standing nanga at the corner after the lawyers are thru.
There ends the FOSS presentation. CDR files are regularly exchanged between suppliers, vendors and customers.
For people like u yes.
Industry does not use libre file formats.
You are in your own wonderland arent you.
e) There are plethora of applications which do not run on Linux that doesnt make those applications inferior.
That is you hiding behind an imaginary wall. Any app which does not run on linux is CRAP - not just inferior. And any closed app is vastly inferior to a FOSS app irrespective of this or that feature. you will know when such apps bite you. Till then have fun.
That's imagination running wild. You are mixing between a finished product and manufacturing / upgradation process.
Hehe. you are the one mixed up. But we'll wait for u to unmix.
CSS is paid software so the software company always has the sword hanging over its head and users can criticise it, curse it, holler at the makers till they come up with better upgrades.
Stop fooling yourself. Try doing it and keep us posted on the results.
Libre software is like free accommodation in an Ashram.
That clearly shows a lack of capability to understand complex issues. I shall try to reduce the level of the discussion ta couple of notches. Next time.
hi,
I am intrigued by this line of argument.
IMHO its still ages away from being equivalent to Adobe Illustrator. But a great tool anyways.
Do you have Adobe Illustrator for linux? You dont? Which means that Adobe Illustrator is not even ready leave alone being the equiv of Inkscape. Which by the way also runs natively on M$ wormware.
Does application 'X' run on platform 'Y'? If it does, it is better by default. It does not matter what features or capabilities are supported by 'X'. So, if we each write a 4 line hello_world.c, and yours is compiled to run on Windows and mine on Linux, then my hello_world.c is better than yours?
If so, can someone list out the order in which the various platforms endow their superiority on applications?
-gabin
On Monday 15 October 2007 12:16, Gabin Kattukaran wrote:
hi,
I am intrigued by this line of argument.
IMHO its still ages away from being equivalent to Adobe Illustrator. But a great tool anyways.
Do you have Adobe Illustrator for linux? You dont? Which means that Adobe Illustrator is not even ready leave alone being the equiv of Inkscape. Which by the way also runs natively on M$ wormware.
Does application 'X' run on platform 'Y'? If it does, it is better by default. It does not matter what features or capabilities are supported by 'X'. So, if we each write a 4 line hello_world.c, and yours is compiled to run on Windows and mine on Linux, then my hello_world.c is better than yours?
Precisely not. The mistake that the op and many others in this thread are making is trying to compare one set of tools with another set of tools without an inkling of the motives, goals and design criteria. Having similiar features to "MY favourite shitty app" is no comparison at all.
So by the same measure just slightly skeweing the metrics results in his lovely app becoming not ready at all.
If so, can someone list out the order in which the various platforms endow their superiority on applications?
Hope the rest get your point ;-)
-gabin
-- No tagline today.
On Mon, 2007-10-15 at 17:40 +0530, jtd wrote:
Precisely not. The mistake that the op and many others in this thread are making is trying to compare one set of tools with another set of tools without an inkling of the motives, goals and design criteria. Having similiar features to "MY favourite shitty app" is no comparison at all.
So by the same measure just slightly skeweing the metrics results in his lovely app becoming not ready at all.
Point taken. Sorry I missed the sarcasm in the earlier post :)
If so, can someone list out the order in which the various platforms endow their superiority on applications?
Hope the rest get your point ;-)
:)
-gabin
-
Anurag -
Aseem Rane -
Chetan S -
Gabin Kattukaran -
Javed Rahman -
jtd -
Kamaleshwar Morjal [कम लेश्व र मो रजाल] -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
Kumar Appaiah -
Manoj Srivastava -
Mohan Nayaka -
Nishit Dave -
Pradeepto Bhattacharya -
Puneet Lakhina -
Rohit V Bhute -
Rony -
Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay -
vivek khurana -
Yesudeep