Dear Rony,
Nowadays wireless device frequencies are in GHz. so that should be >ideal to build a mini pocket size parabolic antenna for directional >reception. What type of assistance are you looking at?
To begin any project, a lot of details regarding the technical and management aspects have to be resolved. And so the project requires people with similar exp. to form a team. Things could start taking shape once the team is formed. So, we require to forma team first.
Count me in.
Rgds, Hemendra Jain
On Thursday 31 August 2006 10:52 am, hemendra jain wrote:
Dear Rony,
Sorry to interrupt but.. The person has to know his distance and bearing relative to the radio beacons. This information has to be computed by the reciever and requires expensive electronics - gps without weak signal rf frontend - the transmitter cannot provide this info. since the beacons will have to be omnidirectional he is going to pick up reflected signals killing any chance of getting useful postioning info. But it can definetly provide useful info about the locality and should be useful for just that. For a visually handicapped person even a gps wont work - error of 15 mtrs is common - he will be in extreme danger trying to use these as guidance system or even as a navigational aid. Regarding shops using it as a medium radio clutter will kill any cahnce of finding use ful info.
jtd wrote:
On Thursday 31 August 2006 10:52 am, hemendra jain wrote:
Dear Rony,
Sorry to interrupt but..
No way man, your opinion is most valuable. I like the way you foresee things.
The person has to know his distance and bearing relative to the radio beacons. This information has to be computed by the reciever and requires expensive electronics - gps without weak signal rf frontend
- the transmitter cannot provide this info. since the beacons will
have to be omnidirectional he is going to pick up reflected signals killing any chance of getting useful postioning info.
You are right on that. Later, I was wondering too how an omni-directional transmitter can give directions to people standing on different roads, so one man's left will be another's right and so on. This could be resolved through some method of seeking the user's position first and then tx will reply accordingly. The pole that picks up the strongest signal guesses the user location nearby and internally sends this info to other poles. The poles could use 4 directional receivers to guess user location with better accuracy.
But it can definetly provide useful info about the locality and should be useful for just that. For a visually handicapped person even a gps wont work
- error of 15 mtrs is common - he will be in extreme danger trying to
use these as guidance system or even as a navigational aid.
Very true and any guidance system will be incomplete without guide railings along footpaths and other paths that the user feels his way through. The railings can be embossed with data in braille so as the user slides his hand over it, he reads instructions printed on it. This will be very useful for railway foot overbridges too to know which platform to get down to.
Regarding shops using it as a medium radio clutter will kill any cahnce of finding use ful info.
Agreed.
Regards,
Rony.
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well, regarding the entire issue, I have the following observations. I don't mean to really oppose any ones thinking but as a very ordinary person but being blind I will like to throw some light on the matter. again before I say any thing, I am perhaps the least tallented amongst all so plese forget what ever I say if that sounds useless. firstly, to develop such a system, rather than asuming how a certain system can or cannot be done and taking a certain advantage of limitation for granted, one needs to first understand the mind set of a visually handicap person. firstly while travelling the first and formost thing a blind person needs is a way to find his destination. here I am not refering to the gps system because it will probably be of no use. but if I am nearing an area I should be at least informed that I am near so and so area and this is x y z road. more often than not the problem faced by blind people is not crossing the roads because people help them out due to curtecy. the real problem is finding their way to a particular locality/ area. the second most evident problem for them is to catch a bus from a bus stop. very often they are not informed of the bus number even after asking to their fellow pasengers on the bus stop. some times a kind hearted person will say "bus aane par bata dunga." but when his bus comes before mine he goes away in haist and I will keep on guessing that the person is around and will tell me when my bus comes. and then after a few busses go some other kind person (if any) will ask me which bus do I want and then tell me "are vo bus to gai!" so there needs to be a system where a small chip is fitted inside the bus which has some small transmiter that transmits information at a very short range. so when the bus comes near the device in the hands of the blind person will get the signel and read the bus number and probably some major haults it is going to take. I have seen at many places that the blind people are guided to find the entrence with a beeper placed over the dore or gate. that is not the right idea. right idea is to guide him on a short distance. infact what a blind person guesses from a longer distance is often wrong and he comes to know only when he is close. so if we can figure out relative position and audibally guide the blind person then it will be a great idea. when climbing up or down the foot bridge, the most important problem a blind person faces is to predict the starting and ending of stepps. so the best idea is to give him a queue with disending tones of lowering notes makes him understand the "down " signel. so if he is near by to down going steps relative to his position (at the top of the ladder ) the signel will be disending. same is with asending steps in railway bridges. many blind people find it difficult to navigate on such bridges. as far as landing in to some uncertain place with the help of guided signel is concerned, well I agree on that too. but how about at least telling which bus stop or railway station is near by and I repeat near by not the left or right. that can be sorted out later as roni rightly pointed out. but what is important is the fact that blind person does not have to wait for some one to come and ask "kidhar jana hain?" he will be in a better position to say that take me to x y z colony which is some where close, because he is now sure that he is near by to the destination. generally blind people are confused as to how far or near they are to a locality, and when no one around understand what he is saying, the situation becomes even more complex. as far as the sited people are concerned well, for toorists it is good that they can be guided by such systems. in the later part of our project there can be a small display on the hand held device (at choice) which can even provide the map of the near by or related locality . so when you any ways come near to that pole the one which gets the strongest signel will send the data. and as roni pointed out for blind people this is the way to guess the proximity. these are my views form the real requirement of a blind person. and they certainly fit in the gammett of things that can be done. thanks, Krishnakant.
On Friday 01 September 2006 12:33 am, krishnakant Mane wrote:
well, regarding the entire issue, I have the following observations. I don't mean to really oppose
..snip..
You are most welcome to provide your viewpoint. No need to apologise at all. The problem is two fold locational info and guidance system. The bus problem is location problem reversed but more complicated. For the location problem. Rony's idea of simple short range radio beacon broadcasting it's name on a reserved fm channel is perfect will cost Rs. 1800 or so per beacon - u require a good tx since drift has to be near zero, so hobby fm tx wont do - with solar pack. One could bcast ads, so will actually generate revenue at least in cities. Buses will have similiar device but with collision detction so that bcasts dont overlap. It may still not work too well if the road is a narrow two way street (eg kalbadevi) and multiple buses are within earshot of each other. There is no technically feasabile solution for the guidnaceproblem. Normal guidance requirements are so complex that even a fully functional robot costing a bomb and weighing as much can't work to 10% of any human. A better alternative is to provide properly designed environments eg guide rails with physical markers on stairs. The fm beacon can also work for some cases in identifying exits / entrances loos etc.
well regarding the bus issue, it is right that on narrow streets it will be a problem. but may be we will have to think over and try to get some solution out (that is what research is all about) *smile*. and the fm system is perfectly wonderful as long as it can tell me what is the current area/ colony and which is the near by railway station or even bus stops. you see, different bus stops have different names and we tend to identify areas many a times on the names of their bus stops. Ruia is one such example. and the major thing about the issue related to identifying the bus is that some times there are more than 1 busses standing one behind the other. that time for a sited person it is easy to know which buss is coming in one glance. so it is equally important for a blind person to know which busses are currently at the stop. may be the other way around this problem of narrow streats is that give the signel from a distance close enough for the blind person to make a judgement and far enough for him to get the right enterval. again this is what research is all about. the bottom line behind my research at IIT was "it is very easy to find out the how part of it, what needs to be done is to find out the what part of it". given technological developments today, with some patient findings there is nothing impossible. I am currently doing a project for a talking book reader and its cost was going up drastically, the boards were costing a lot but some patient and determined market survey helped me to get small embedded boards for a very very cheep rate whith even better solution for my project. sorry to be a bit off topic but the point here is to sort out what we need to do first. how wil that be done can be sorted out later. regards. Krishnakant.
On Friday 01 September 2006 12:19 pm, krishnakant Mane wrote:
and the major thing about the issue related to identifying the bus is that some times there are more than 1 busses standing one behind the other.
narrow street and bus pile up are the same issue - collision detection. shortening the tx distance is not a solution because of the way bus environments operate (driver does not align the bus with the stop, bus queing, people queing and recipient being at a distant point or last in the q, passengers getting into the 2nd bus and bus running off - metro bus stop is typical ) In this case simple back of the envelope calc will show the system will be barely workable. Are visually handicapped persons allowed to board from the front? if so the problem can be resolved by the bus bursting data in a narrow vertical beam. The only requirement will be that the bus front crosses the recipient.
sorry to be a bit off topic but the point here is to sort out what we need to do first.
I thought that the what part is providing bus info at bus stop and location info at other places, and the how is being discussed.
yes your suggestion is perfect. blind people are rather by law allowed and by rule recommended to board the bus from the front and now a days the drivers generally stop the busses properly when they site a blind person standing on the bus stop. the problem is the blind person should know his/ her bus has actually arived. remember the problem I told in some previous email on the thread? and the other thing is that the other point of informing the user the near by colony or area is a must because while a sited person can read the area board on the nacka for example, a blind person has no clue where he is heading. rgds Krishnakant.
jtd wrote:
On Friday 01 September 2006 12:19 pm, krishnakant Mane wrote:
and the major thing about the issue related to identifying the bus is that some times there are more than 1 busses standing one behind the other.
narrow street and bus pile up are the same issue - collision detection. shortening the tx distance is not a solution because of the way bus environments operate (driver does not align the bus with the stop, bus queing, people queing and recipient being at a distant point or last in the q, passengers getting into the 2nd bus and bus running off - metro bus stop is typical )
Once a guidance system is in place, bus drivers too will be trained to align the bus as per the Tx/Rx requirements. The new drivers for AC, trailer as well as Star buses are much better in driving skills than the ordinary bus drivers. So technology upgradation will bring about that positive change. :-)
Regards,
Rony.
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Once a guidance system is in place, bus drivers too will be trained to align the bus as per the Tx/Rx requirements. The new drivers for AC, trailer as well as Star buses are much better in driving skills than the ordinary bus drivers. So technology upgradation will bring about that positive change. :-)
yes that's right. infact even the normal bus drivers have now come to know how to handle a blind person once the person has decided to get into the bus. the problem now remains as I have been constently putting, to decide to get into the bus and for that one should knwo the buss number and the major hauts it is going to take. when I was doing a research servay with blind people on a project, I had done some research work on their needs and identifying the area, road name and the colony is one major issue. Krishnakant.
On Friday 01 September 2006 10:12 pm, Rony wrote:
jtd wrote:
No way man, your opinion is most valuable. I like the way you foresee things.
Umm. I did not others did. I just happened to read the right stuff and the good fortune of working on many complex and interesting things.
You are right on that. Later, I was wondering too how an omni-directional transmitter can give directions to people standing on different roads, so one man's left will be another's right and so on. This could be resolved through some method of seeking the user's position first and then tx will reply accordingly. The pole that picks up the strongest signal guesses the user location nearby and internally sends this info to other poles. The poles could use 4 directional receivers to guess user location with better accuracy.
You do not rely on signal strength cause that is dependent on everything and the cat. You use time stamps either as actual time or a periodic signal. In either case all the devices in the computing chain need to sync and be extremely accurate. In the cae of gps a few microseconds drift will result in several meters of inaccuracy. The shorter the distance to be measured the higher the accuracy, including relative accuracy. for our situation we require centimeter accuracy over tens of meters. which would translate to nano sec resolutions. The costs would be impossible. Precision guidance systems use inertial navigation (gyro compass) and verrrryyy high accuracy initial location.
jtd wrote:
You do not rely on signal strength cause that is dependent on everything and the cat. You use time stamps either as actual time or a periodic signal. In either case all the devices in the computing chain need to sync and be extremely accurate. In the cae of gps a few microseconds drift will result in several meters of inaccuracy. The shorter the distance to be measured the higher the accuracy, including relative accuracy. for our situation we require centimeter accuracy over tens of meters. which would translate to nano sec resolutions. The costs would be impossible. Precision guidance systems use inertial navigation (gyro compass) and verrrryyy high accuracy initial location.
Lets do it from the bottom first. We are getting into very high precision navigation apparatus, something which may not be necessary for local use in a locality. Lets start with simple directional TX RX systems. They will give the direction and area information on the basis of where the user is standing. The need for the RF system would be limited to helping the user make a choice of direction and its destination. The guide railings and audio beeps at traffic signals will provide the `last meter' connectivity.
I was also wondering about the use of optical Tx and Rx devices to eliminate the problems of rf mixing, interference and direction tuning. An optical device works in line of sight and that will give the necessary directional focus. This can also be used for the bus number suggestion put up by Krishnakant. As the bus passes by the user, the IR device on the bus door will send out an optical signal, that will be picked up by the hand held device. This makes it highly directional and eliminates signals from adjacent buses. To eliminate the problems of public blocking the optical path, these devices can be mounted at the top of the bus and the receptor mounted at the same level on the bus stop. A public address loudspeaker will announce every bus that passes the post.
Regards,
Rony.
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On Saturday 02 September 2006 01:16 pm, Rony wrote:
Lets do it from the bottom first. We are getting into very high precision navigation apparatus, something which may not be necessary for local use in a locality. Lets start with simple directional TX RX systems. They will give the direction and area information on the basis of where the user is standing.
you can get area information - "u are at Century bazar" left, right, front and back is relative to YOUR postion, orientation and distancefrom the beacon - something which u are trying to find out with your gadget. To do so u need a time stamped signal from threebeacons. You could be standing 2 mtr to the left of the beacon and facing north and sombody could be .5 mtr from the beacon facing south. The system has to resolve these distances. Remember u have no visual clue.
The need for the RF system would be limited to helping the user make a choice of direction and its destination. The guide railings and audio beeps at traffic signals will provide the `last meter' connectivity.
If u have guide railings and the user walks up to that point all problems are resolved. U have location, orientation and distance. The beacon can transmit proper info at the additional cost of having several rails and beacons -eg 7 at prabhadevi signal. Also now they cannot be used at a distance.
I was also wondering about the use of optical Tx and Rx devices
impractical. Try waving a remote in front of the tv and see.
yes we can start form the bottom up. first of all just anouncing the nearby area and letting the user know which bus stop or railway station is near by is a good starting point. finding addressess and locations will be drastically easy from a blind person's point of view. then the bus numbre and path problem. then we can start working on serious directional research, because there are two major points all of you can gather form the discussion so far, firstly to identify what is best suited to make a blind person understand things and how we can adopt the technology to do so. Krishnakant.
jtd wrote:
If u have guide railings and the user walks up to that point all problems are resolved. U have location, orientation and distance. The beacon can transmit proper info at the additional cost of having several rails and beacons -eg 7 at prabhadevi signal. Also now they cannot be used at a distance.
The guide railings are meant to differentiate between road and foot path safety limits and have the additional facility of instructions emobssed on them. The guide rail does not bring the user to his destination, it only guides till the footpath ends and the user has to now decide which direction he needs to take for what destination. This choice will be fed to him by the electronic system. Once the choice is made, he crosses the road and moves on to the next railing. All information may be difficult to punch into a railing and the user will have to feel a very long way to read everything.
A simple alternative option of providing user orientation to the signpost can be to incorporate buttons in the railings that the user will press as he reaches the end of the footpath. This will provide accurate information about the user without using heavy technology. The signpost will then broadcast information to the user's device.
The problem here is that how does the post identify the device to which it has to broadcast? There can be a system of temporarily docking the user's unit into the railing port with optical proximity like a bar code reader. So while the rails act as sensors, the signpost is only one common transmitter connected to a common computer.
So here is a practical example.
A user is slowly walking along the road from Sah and Sanghi auto shop towards Prabhadevi Junction, feeling his way on a railing. As he approaches the Century Bazar signal, the railing tells him that a junction is approaching. Just before the junction, the user momentarily docks his device into the railing port and removes it. The radio signpost then tells him about his bearings and what directions he can take to what destination. The user wants to go to Ceat house which is a few buildings away from Century Bazar. So the post instructs him to take the immediate left signal, cross the road and take the next railing to his right. As the user feels his way ahead, he reaches Ceat Building. The building names of popular buildings could be embossed into the railing.
Regards,
Rony.
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On 02/09/06, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
jtd wrote:
If u have guide railings and the user walks up to that point all problems are resolved. U have location, orientation and distance. The beacon can transmit proper info at the additional cost of having several rails and beacons -eg 7 at prabhadevi signal. Also now they cannot be used at a distance.
well once such a system is implemented they will certainly walk over to the railling.
The guide railings are meant to differentiate between road and foot path safety limits and have the additional facility of instructions emobssed on them. The guide rail does not bring the user to his destination, it only guides till the footpath ends and the user has to now decide which direction he needs to take for what destination. This choice will be fed to him by the electronic system. Once the choice is made, he crosses the road and moves on to the next railing. All information may be difficult to punch into a railing and the user will have to feel a very long way to read everything.
Agreed and then this will need a little bit of analysis as to what can be actually fed.
A simple alternative option of providing user orientation to the signpost can be to incorporate buttons in the railings that the user
Keep in mind however that we are talking about an additional asset to be fitted to the roads. how long can the raillings can go? will there be objection from public? > This will provide
accurate information about the user without using heavy technology.
that is the major point. we are not yet really got converted from Mumbai to shanghai. so what you say is right and I believe let's work on what ever resources we can use.
The problem here is that how does the post identify the device to which it has to broadcast? There can be a system of temporarily docking the user's unit into the railing port with optical proximity like a bar code reader. So while the rails act as sensors, the signpost is only one common transmitter connected to a common computer.
perfect. I think this was what you were telling me on the phone.
So here is a practical example.
A user is slowly walking along the road from Sah and Sanghi auto shop towards Prabhadevi Junction, feeling his way on a railing. As he approaches the Century Bazar signal, the railing tells him that a junction is approaching. Just before the junction, the user momentarily docks his device into the railing port and removes it. The radio signpost then tells him about his bearings and what directions he can take to what destination. The user wants to go to Ceat house which is a few buildings away from Century Bazar. So the post instructs him to take the immediate left signal, cross the road and take the next railing to his right. As the user feels his way ahead, he reaches Ceat Building. The building names of popular buildings could be embossed into the railing.
well again, how long can be the railing? we can't have it from one end of Mumbai to Other, may be I did not get your idea so it is my humble request to clearify. my personal view is to have the blind person be notified that he is around a certain area etc. and if the railings are at proper prominent locations, it will be perfect. Krishnakant.
Here is my implementation
Cross made of 6cm ss pipe. Cross member situated at 3 ft with one end threaded flange with neoprene rubber seal. Vertical member 7ft. Top will have 1w solar panel rigged for 12 v o/p. electronics self built mp3 player (no ogg dac-codecs yet afair) in loop mode with stereo fm tx hooked to Nokia limh battery hooked to car charger hooked to solar panel.
Person walks up to cross Bar places both hands on bar reads any braille that may be there. He is now correctly oriented. Tunes fm reciever to the prefixed frequency (which is the same for all beacons) and listens to the endless looped message. Message will start by providing rail info - u are at prabhadevi C - followed by instructions about getting to nearby locations and bus stops.
A central server having details of all beacons and corresponding surrouding locations can provide fine details and needed interactivity. Both ogg and graphics acn be served.
Busses have the same set up as crossbar but with a directional antenna near the front door. Collision detction seems technically un feasable at the moment.
hi, yes, central server is the way to go this is what I was advicing from quite some time. so right now we can go ahead with a simple monolog kind of information to keep things streight and simple. then once we have the technicalities worked out "cost effectively " we can use the same existing infrastructure to build the system in ints advanced stage. what is required is to have the right infrastructure which can be used further for advanced ideas without much re implementation. for example this Idea of central server. Krishnakant.
krishnakant Mane wrote:
hi, yes, central server is the way to go this is what I was advicing from quite some time.
Central server makes use of a computer and needs underground wiring or expensive wireless network. Plus a power consumption of over 300 watts. Local tiny broadcaster circuits are cost effective and maintainence free. Install and forget. The choice is now FM or WLAN or Bluetooth as per Dinesh's suggestion.
Why are we looking at solar panels and batteries? Like street lights, these could be powered by the municipal electricity or traffic signal posts. Maybe a battery backup for power breakdowns.
We also need to check out power consumptions of all the 3 devices mentioned above for a TX. range of 5 feet only, not 100 feet.
What about a cheap laser diode pumping high density packets into a receiver. The rail has a hollow docking port to simply place the receiver's probe into it for a few seconds, so no shake problem. A beep will tell the user that data is transferred. This will make it cheap and will also function as the user position aligner.
Regards,
Rony.
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ok roni, but why can't we use servers with some alternative except underground wiring? I don't know but try working it out if possible. secondly, the docking idea is good but I don't know if this kind of argonomy will be suitable for blind people and think of what people do with all the garbage after saying "green mumbai clean mumbai!" the docking hollows will be filled with what not? just think may be im wrong. Krishnakant.
Dear Rony,
Here are my 2 cents. :-)
On 9/5/06, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Central server makes use of a computer and needs underground wiring or expensive wireless network. Plus a power consumption of over 300 watts. Local tiny broadcaster circuits are cost effective and maintainence free. Install and forget. The choice is now FM or WLAN or Bluetooth as per Dinesh's suggestion.
To start with, use simple device which can be further expanded/enhanced. I we start with FM/Analog signals, we will be limiting ourselves in transmitting very specific info. However, if the data transmitted is in digital form, it can be easily manipulated at the receiving end. Also think of multitude of languages in India and around the world.
The initial Blutooth transmitter can be very simple programmable device which stores the location/direction info in the digital form.
The actual use and interpretation/translation of the data can be done in the user hand held device. The device can be used not only by only visually challenged but people who are new to city/town and those who can not read/understand local language including tourists and travelers.
Why are we looking at solar panels and batteries? Like street lights, these could be powered by the municipal electricity or traffic signal posts. Maybe a battery backup for power breakdowns.
The solar panel should be used to make the system self sufficient and make it maintenance free as much as possible.
We also need to check out power consumptions of all the 3 devices mentioned above for a TX. range of 5 feet only, not 100 feet.
I have no exact figures for Blutooth power consumption. May be Terrence can throw some light on this. The range for Blutooth is 5-50 meters by design.
What about a cheap laser diode pumping high density packets into a receiver. The rail has a hollow docking port to simply place the receiver's probe into it for a few seconds, so no shake problem. A beep will tell the user that data is transferred. This will make it cheap and will also function as the user position aligner.
Any thing like this can be made useless in no time at any public place. Wireless data/signal exchange is the only viable option in public places.
Regards,
With regards,
On Tuesday 05 September 2006 01:16 am, Dinesh Shah wrote:
To start with, use simple device which can be further expanded/enhanced. I we start with FM/Analog signals, we will be limiting ourselves in transmitting very specific info. However, if the data transmitted is in digital form, it can be easily manipulated at the receiving end. Also think of multitude of languages in India and around the world.
English + Local lang. Final rf is analog. But input to txer is mp3. I am also thinking of a pcm bitstream stored in single bit 2Mb rom. A speex stream will be 16kbits/sec =125 secs of speech. We could then have a very minimal 8 pin micon (or even non at all - just a clock signal. Could some one type up a msg for a very complex location, say Jacob circle so that we can estimate the speech period. BTW what is the duration of the preprogrammed speech gizmos available at lamington rd.
Dinesh Shah wrote:
On 9/5/06, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Why are we looking at solar panels and batteries? Like street lights, these could be powered by the municipal electricity or traffic signal posts. Maybe a battery backup for power breakdowns.
The solar panel should be used to make the system self sufficient and make it maintenance free as much as possible.
Solar panels are not required in the city and they will clutter up the place, and the poles will be used by people to hoist flags and banners. Regular bird droppings too will make the panel require a lot of maintenance. Plus they increase the cost unnecessarily.
We can do a re-think on how the TX device can be kept passive with no power consumption and all the electronics in the receiver itself. For example a bar coded page mounted on a board, that the user simply downloads into his device using a bar code reader. Another option is to eliminate the use of any device for receiving and make a pole mounted kiosk that has a built in keyboard and speakers for interactive queries, like a public telephone. This kiosk will be powered on only when a user presses a button.
I think we need to first make an algorithm of what we want and expect from the system and then decide the best way to go about that.
Here's a startup list.
1. What is the information that the user of this service is looking for. 2. What are the total queries that a user will ask the system for interactive directions. 3. How is the system expected to resolve these queries. 4. How will the user interact with the system. 5. How is data stored and updated in this system.
Regards,
Rony.
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On 06/09/06, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote: We can do a re-think on how the TX device can be kept passive with no power consumption and all the electronics in the receiver itself. For example a bar coded page mounted on a board, that the user simply downloads into his device using a bar code reader. yes this is one of the perfect solutions every on the thread. and bar code readers are cheep too. Another option is to eliminate the use of any device for receiving and make a pole mounted kiosk that has a built in keyboard and speakers for interactive queries, like a public telephone. This kiosk will be powered on only when a user presses a button. no this again incurs maintainance cost and it will be even more with the kind of suggestion you are having. and this kind of setups will fail more often than not due to rough or miss handeling.
I think we need to first make an algorithm of what we want and expect from the system and then decide the best way to go about that.
Here's a startup list.
1. What is the information that the user of this service is looking for. 2. What are the total queries that a user will ask the system for interactive directions. 3. How is the system expected to resolve these queries. 4. How will the user interact with the system. 5. How is data stored and updated in this system. wow, so at last we have at least concluded to work out the requirements and then see how we go about it. this is a very helthy sign for any project like this. I too believe in the phelosophy of first working out all the necessary aspects and nitty gritty details and then search alternative technologies and cost effective solutions for the same. explore the market and you will find millions of options, well at least a lot of cost effective once for what we need. roni, thanks for those suggestions only thing I will suggest is that what ever is worked out we need to except one thing, people in the city are even today quite un deceplened and they wil throw garbage any where around. so docking the machine in is not at all a good idea. bar code is one of the best ideas coming out and again focusing on the hand held device having the major work to do. this and similar ideas will always incur less maintainance so less cost. that's why I favoured even the central server. any ways after the networking issue raised may be central server wil go out of question. but a keyboard driven interface again incurs maintainance.
--- Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
We can do a re-think on how the TX device can be kept passive with no
power consumption and all the electronics in the receiver itself. For
example a bar coded page mounted on a board, that the user simply downloads into his device using a bar code reader. Another option is to eliminate the use of any device for receiving and make a pole mounted
kiosk that has a built in keyboard and speakers for interactive queries, like a public telephone. This kiosk will be powered on only when a user presses a button.
Use foot power. Place something similar to a dynamo under some tiles on the sidewalk or on the road. As cars or people step on this, it will generate power which will be used to charge the battery.
Similarly, is it possible to harness the underground drain water to run a small watermill?
-abhishek
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Sometime on Tue, Sep 05, 2006 at 06:07:08AM -0700, Abhishek Daga said:
Use foot power. Place something similar to a dynamo under some tiles on the sidewalk or on the road. As cars or people step on this, it will generate power which will be used to charge the battery.
Similarly, is it possible to harness the underground drain water to run a small watermill?
Underground drains needs to be cleaned before every monsoon. Would BMC really agree to install watermills??
Anurag
On Tuesday 05 September 2006 06:47 pm, Anurag wrote:
Sometime on Tue, Sep 05, 2006 at 06:07:08AM -0700, Abhishek Daga
said:
Use foot power. Place something similar to a dynamo under some tiles on the sidewalk or on the road. As cars or people step on this, it will generate power which will be used to charge the battery.
Similarly, is it possible to harness the underground drain water to run a small watermill?
Underground drains needs to be cleaned before every monsoon. Would BMC really agree to install watermills??
That is actually a ++. Gutter gas is a potent mix of high "octane" gases. "Gutter gas powers direction and guidance system" - fame, riches and deep gratitude awaits all ye brillant folks.
Abhishek Daga wrote:
Use foot power. Place something similar to a dynamo under some tiles on the sidewalk or on the road.
Why tiles or sidewalk, let the user push the pedal. But this pedal will be prone to damage by urchins. Also waterlogging of roads is a problem. Otherwise, dynamo torches from China have hit the market for Rs. 30/-, so it is possible.
Regards,
Rony.
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On Tuesday 05 September 2006 07:05 pm, Rony wrote:
krishnakant Mane wrote:
hi, yes, central server is the way to go this is what I was advicing from quite some time.
Central server makes use of a computer and needs underground wiring or expensive wireless network. Plus a power consumption of over 300 watts. Local tiny broadcaster circuits are cost effective and maintainence free. Install and forget. The choice is now FM or WLAN or Bluetooth as per Dinesh's suggestion.
U have mis understood. The Central server is not connected in any way to the rails - atleast initially. After the user hears the info, particularly the url "prabhedevi c" (alongwith instructions abt local landmarks) he will enter this url, http://www.mylocation.org/mumbai/prabhadevi/c/ MYDESTINATION in HIS preferred device, ideally a gprs enabld phone (possibly midp compliant). This will hit the server hosting mylocation.org and serve an ogg (mp3??) file which will play on his phone. No wiring, no cable. Wlan / bluetooth is out because of price associated with a relatively big processor and protocol stack.
Why are we looking at solar panels and batteries? Like street lights, these could be powered by the municipal electricity or traffic signal posts. Maybe a battery backup for power breakdowns.
Because it will cost Rs.10000/- per meter of digging and aquaint you serfs with all the Royalnesses in the fiefdom of BMC. As it is they might cast a spell on you and make your project into a frog.
We also need to check out power consumptions of all the 3 devices mentioned above for a TX. range of 5 feet only, not 100 feet.
less than a watt for fm+mp3 player. 7 to 8 watts for Wlan. 3+ watts for bluetooth - u cant just stick in a blutooth with two wires u have to process events from the bluetooth device and write out a digital stream to it's input, so while the bluetooth device itself will be less tahn 500mw the rest of the electronics to drive it will suck power.
What about a cheap laser diode pumping high density packets into a receiver. The rail has a hollow docking port to simply place the receiver's probe into it for a few seconds, so no shake problem. A beep will tell the user that data is transferred. This will make it cheap and will also function as the user position aligner.
Forget about finding a hole in a high footfall area. The laser diode will cost more than the entire fm and bluetooth setup put together. even if u used el cheapo infrared u are still mandating an esoteric device for the end user.
jtd wrote:
U have mis understood. The Central server is not connected in any way to the rails - atleast initially. After the user hears the info, particularly the url "prabhedevi c" (alongwith instructions abt local landmarks) he will enter this url, http://www.mylocation.org/mumbai/prabhadevi/c/ MYDESTINATION in HIS preferred device, ideally a gprs enabld phone (possibly midp compliant).
A VI user cannot be expected to type out a long url. However, that can be resolved with speech commands. The above system is fine but will be service provider (SP) dependent and will not be available to subscribers of other SPs. For simple location information we can altogether do away with electronic railings and power requirements and go for braille embossed ones with a flat plate welded on, to handle 5 to 10 lines of a page. The entire electronics is now mobile network based. What about fringe areas where network is still a problem? How will the SPs interact with each other and share resources?
Why are we looking at solar panels and batteries? Like street lights, these could be powered by the municipal electricity or traffic signal posts. Maybe a battery backup for power breakdowns.
Because it will cost Rs.10000/- per meter of digging and aquaint you serfs with all the Royalnesses in the fiefdom of BMC. As it is they might cast a spell on you and make your project into a frog.
Anyway its not going to be an individual local digging. When it is implemented across an entire city, many Govt. agencies will be involved. It will need blessings of the top ministers anyway.
What about a cheap laser diode pumping high density packets into a receiver. The rail has a hollow docking port to simply place the receiver's probe into it for a few seconds, so no shake problem. A beep will tell the user that data is transferred. This will make it cheap and will also function as the user position aligner.
Forget about finding a hole in a high footfall area. The laser diode will cost more than the entire fm and bluetooth setup put together. even if u used el cheapo infrared u are still mandating an esoteric device for the end user.
It need not be hollow. It can be convex, like a bump on the inner side of the rail and the reading device concave. The devices need not be curved or have to meet, like the bar code readers in malls. The laser diode Tx. and Rx. unit is used in optical scroll mice for minute traction information and the entire mouse costs less than Rs. 400/-. We are making a device to help a particular group of people with special needs. Let the regular ones log into mumbainfo.com on their mobiles using gprs. The advantage of optical format is that we are simply breaking the wire and converting direct digital signals into light and back to digital. No modulation or demodulation. No RF interference. No license. Simply push a tar.bz package into the user's device and the user issues voice commands to ask questions or clicks a Yes button when a question on his destination comes up in the sequence of voice prompts and gets voice replies from the machine on how to get there. As simple as that.
For power, if we can get a low power laser diode Tx. circuit, then we can experiment on the use of a split transformer where the primary and its core is in the hand held unit and the secondary and its core is in the fixed Tx. unit. When the two cores meet, a high frequency oscillation in the primary ferrite core, passes the electromagnetic field into the secondary core to generate just the power required to transfer the zipped package. I recollect, the EHT transformer of the B/W television runs on the 15625 Hz. horizontal frequency and 4 to 5 turns of ordinary wire around its ferrite core can generate voltage for the CRT's filament.
Regards,
Rony.
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Rony wrote:
The above system is fine but will be service provider (SP) dependent and will not be available to subscribers of other SPs.
Please ignore the above statement. I got a little mixed up.
Regards,
Rony.
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Rony wrote:
For power, if we can get a low power laser diode Tx. circuit, then we can experiment on the use of a split transformer where the primary and its core is in the hand held unit and the secondary and its core is in the fixed Tx. unit. When the two cores meet, a high frequency oscillation in the primary ferrite core, passes the electromagnetic field into the secondary core to generate just the power required to transfer the zipped package. I recollect, the EHT transformer of the B/W television runs on the 15625 Hz. horizontal frequency and 4 to 5 turns of ordinary wire around its ferrite core can generate voltage for the CRT's filament.
I was looking for working solutions and found that some one else too has thought of this technique in a similar way.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4654573.html
Regards,
Rony.
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Sometime on Thu, Sep 07, 2006 at 08:56:27PM +0530, Rony said:
Rony wrote:
For power, if we can get a low power laser diode Tx. circuit, then we can experiment on the use of a split transformer where the primary and its core is in the hand held unit and the secondary and its core is in the fixed Tx. unit. When the two cores meet, a high frequency oscillation in the primary ferrite core, passes the electromagnetic field into the secondary core to generate just the power required to transfer the zipped package. I recollect, the EHT transformer of the B/W television runs on the 15625 Hz. horizontal frequency and 4 to 5 turns of ordinary wire around its ferrite core can generate voltage for the CRT's filament.
I was looking for working solutions and found that some one else too has thought of this technique in a similar way.
haha! your plans of world domination is trashed now :)
Anurag
On Saturday 02 September 2006 02:57 pm, Rony wrote:
jtd wrote:
If u have guide railings and the user walks up to that point all problems are resolved. U have location, orientation and distance. The beacon can transmit proper info at the additional cost of having several rails and beacons -eg 7 at prabhadevi signal. Also now they cannot be used at a distance.
The guide railings are meant to differentiate between road and foot path safety limits and have the additional facility of instructions emobssed on them. The guide rail does not bring the user to his destination,
It will. The main problem was location and orientation of the user. Once he is at the rail both are fixed. Therail has a fm transmitter which is broadcasting it's location and neighbouring locations but at a low power so the info is recieved only a meter or 2 near the rail. The info will provide very acurate info like go right for worli naka, cross road for nehru science center, bus stop is to the left etc. You need to restrict the reception area because a person accross the road is oriented differently and will get a slightly different set of info. The system is non interactive and the reciever is any fm reciever.
A simple alternative option of providing user orientation to the signpost can be to incorporate buttons in the railings that the user will press as he reaches the end of the footpath.
not needed. Just face the railing to be correctly postioned.
The problem here is that how does the post identify the device to which it has to broadcast?
There is no post. Or maybe a post which only announces it's location and recieveable upto 50 mtr. Carrier of post and rail are different.
So here is a practical example.
A user is slowly walking along the road from Sah and Sanghi auto shop towards Prabhadevi Junction, feeling his way on a railing. As he approaches the Century Bazar signal, the railing tells him that a junction is approaching. Just before the junction, the user
His fm radio is already tuned to a fixed frequency (alloted by govt throught India - maybe the world by ITU) when he reaches the junction he will get brief info about the neighbourhood from the rail. At the same time someone is on the opposite footpath and also wants to go to Ceat building. He too walks up to his rail and recieves a different set of instructions to go to the same location from the Holy rail. As are others on different rails. One just waits a little to recieve the endlessly txd message. Each rail has it's own independent electronics not linked to any thing else.
It will. The main problem was location and orientation of the user. Once he is at the rail both are fixed. Therail has a fm transmitter which is broadcasting it's location and neighbouring locations but at a low power so the info is recieved only a meter or 2 near the rail. The info will provide very acurate info like go right for worli naka, cross road for nehru science center, bus stop is to the left etc. You need to restrict the reception area because a person accross the road is oriented differently and will get a slightly different set of info. The system is non interactive and the reciever is any fm reciever.
Well, if the system is a bit interactive, some more things can be done to assist the blind person. I am compiling a document which I will post soon. and if the hand held device can do a little bit more at the control of the user then lot of things can be done.
not needed. Just face the railing to be correctly postioned.
well if the buttons are there it will be perfect. because blind people will get that extra bit of judgement. but if it is certain that the blind person will always be in a correct position then it is ok. but I need to take this up as a research. some small things in the interfacing make a lot of difference.
The problem here is that how does the post identify the device to which it has to broadcast?
There is no post. Or maybe a post which only announces it's location > and recieveable upto 50 mtr. Carrier of post and rail are different.
the conclusion for the distance will need some study.
His fm radio is already tuned to a fixed frequency (alloted by govt throught India - maybe the world by ITU) when he reaches the junction he will get brief info about the neighbourhood from the rail. At the same time someone is on the opposite footpath and also wants to go to Ceat building. He too walks up to his rail and recieves a different set of instructions to go to the same location from the Holy rail. As are others on different rails. One just waits a little to recieve the endlessly txd message. Each rail has it's own independent electronics not linked to any thing else.
if we actually follow the idea of identifying the person and sending proper signel then it will be much better. we can even think of giving some better customisation to the blind person. the interface for which needs some brain storming. like for example if he regularly visits a particular place the system may as well give him only that information which is needed. how this can be worked out I will let every one know after I discuss it with a couple of IIT scientists because I have a meeting on coming mumday for some other project. Krishnakant.
On Friday 01 September 2006 04:36 pm, krishnakant Mane wrote:
It will. The main problem was location and orientation of the
Well, if the system is a bit interactive, some more things can be done to assist the blind person.
Interaction will skyrocket the pricInteraction will skyrocket the pricing, make it non maintanence free and requirethe user to have complex equipment rather than plain old fm radio. You are talking of thousands of such devices, so capital costs must be low and maintanence must be ZERO. For infrastructure like roads governments are unable to provide a modicum of maintanence. For something as "superflous" as this it would be dead from day one. eg train anouncement system costed 4.5cr and plays half sine wave - would give a rock band the shakes.
if we actually follow the idea of identifying the person and sending proper signel then it will be much better.
U are jacking up the price by orders of magnitude. While the tech to do all sorts of gymnastics is easily available, maintainig and keeping costs down would be impossible with anything but the sipmplest system -eg coupon stamping machine with fancy printer and stupid electronics now replaced with sophisticated fully interactive rubber stamp. I really fell on the floor the first time i saw that.
well, let the project start first things can be made viable through many means. having worked on similar projects I can say out of experience that cheeper alternatives can be found out (and I had recent experience of this ) and if not there are other ways of doing the same. again let's not get into a lot of details on how complex and costly the system will be. let's first start working out things. Krishnakant.
sorry to post again. but one point just whent out of my mind. as all of you rightly pointed out let's start the project with what ever resources are available. then IIT Incubator can be approached for heavy funding etc. Krishnakant.
krishnakant Mane wrote:
Well, if the system is a bit interactive, some more things can be done to assist the blind person. I am compiling a document which I will post soon. and if the hand held device can do a little bit more at the control of the user then lot of things can be done.
As a balance between low cost and maintainence as JTD suggests and interactivity as desired, we could have the same repeater system giving out not just plain speech but interactive speech, like a tiny voice enabled web page. When the user is in close proximity to the railing transmitter, it dumps an entire website into the user's device. This website will be based on the particular railing position. The user then interacts with it asking it for detailed addresses and locations around it, as desired. The device can have a keypad in braille format where the user punches queries and the device reads out the answer. Once the user moves on to another railing, the old data is replaced by a new web site.
The advantages of this system will be that the railing will have to be fed once with the respective web pages and after that its sealed against dust and water and maintainence is not needed. The user gains by getting to ask customised queries.
Regards,
Rony.
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As a balance between low cost and maintainence as JTD suggests and interactivity as desired, we could have the same repeater system giving out not just plain speech but interactive speech, like a tiny voice enabled web page.
what roni, you have some brain reader device or what? I can't even file a coppyright sue on u. *smile * this is exactly what I was suggesting. When the user is in close proximity to the railing
transmitter, it dumps an entire website into the user's device. This website will be based on the particular railing position. The user then interacts with it asking it for detailed addresses and locations around it, as desired.
Yes that's right and I have worked on voice based web systems before and they work very well for blind people. The device can have a keypad in braille format where
user punches queries and the device reads out the answer. Once the user moves on to another railing, the old data is replaced by a new web site.
Yes exactly. that is what my interface idea was.
The advantages of this system will be that the railing will have to be fed once with the respective web pages and after that its sealed against dust and water and maintainence is not needed.
Well the data can be kept on a central server and the railings can just have dumterminals. and as far as the braille key pad goes, we can have even compac idea like the one used in mobile phones. because the use of braille is slowly getting reducedamongst blind people. regards. Krishnakant.
On Friday 01 September 2006 10:20 pm, krishnakant Mane wrote:
As a balance between low cost and maintainence as JTD suggests and interactivity as desired,
I would love an all singing, dancing and beer pouring gizmo but we are getting into feature creep. U now want bluetooth or 802.11 (forget abt connectors - wont last a day - does not gel with visually handicapped) and a webserver and POWER to keep it running. Your Solar panels are going to get big and expensive and a very attractive target for all the junkies around. If it is large it has to be mounted at suficient height making installation and maintanence expensive. And now u are adding huge costs for a microscopic minority of people who have web enabled pocket devices and actually need info which is more easily available by asking the local paanwalla.
Guys our focus is mitigating the daily travails of visually handicapped using GNU components. As a spin off and funder acceptability it can be used by anyone with a radio. Get this working and in place. U can add FTV and Youtube and vending machines in the future.
well the bottom line is get the project started that's right. and first things first so some simple solution can be implemented. but my recent experiences show that cost can be brought down to a very great extent if we just look patiently at the other side of the coin. so while we actually start form the bottom up doing simple things and working simple solutions, let the ideas flow in and there are various issues by which funding to any extent can be worked out, I repeat can be worked out. I have a few serious plans regarding this project and they r once which have been previously implemented with no problem, I am talking about hardware cost and also getting proper funding. I will discuss this in the meeting on 16th. but guys please don't drop any idea if it is really the need of accessibility. afterall the whole point behind the project is to make life better for handicap people.
jtd wrote:
I would love an all singing, dancing and beer pouring gizmo but we are getting into feature creep. U now want bluetooth or 802.11 (forget abt connectors - wont last a day - does not gel with visually handicapped) and a webserver and POWER to keep it running. Your Solar panels are going to get big and expensive and a very attractive target for all the junkies around. If it is large it has to be mounted at suficient height making installation and maintanence expensive.
Accepted!. Now here is another solution.
The web page will anyway provide only local information so it will not be a heavy page, just some light pages providing information. The text to speech is converted in the receiving device.
The Wireless Access Point ( WAP ) nowadays costs Rs. 2K approx. It is a built-in web server with an 802.11 network interface for broadcast. A WAP does not require a license to operate. The built-in web pages can be replaced with the web pages of the locality. The RF power output will be further reduced to allow a 5 to 10 feet range only. So the overall power consumption is only a few watts.
The use of a standard 802.11 interface will allow any wireless device of that standard to operate as the receiver, depending on the user's purchasing power. Any handheld device can suffice. A special low cost version can be developed by using the Simputer type technology. It was meant to be a hand held computer with a wireless network interface and cost approx. 5K to 10K rupees. Our version need not have any graphics or modem and would simply download and play the web pages into a headphone, with a keyboard.
There are faceless Chinese companies that make the hardware like WAPs for branded companies and such manufacturers can provide the hardware in volume, once the prototypes are made. This will further bring down costs. We get more freedom to load our webpage inside the WAP.
Regards,
Rony.
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The web page will anyway provide only local information so it will not be a heavy page, just some light pages providing information. The text to speech is converted in the receiving device.
Yes that is a kind of lite weight thing and is quite phisible.
The Wireless Access Point ( WAP ) nowadays costs Rs. 2K approx. It is a built-in web server with an 802.11 network interface for broadcast. A WAP does not require a license to operate. The built-in web pages can be replaced with the web pages of the locality. The RF power output will be further reduced to allow a 5 to 10 feet range only. So the overall power consumption is only a few watts.
Yes roni, that is what I ment by looking at the cost effective solutions. I am not claiming here that this is the perfect solution. it may or may not be. but this is the kind of work expected from the team. if we explore around we get a lot of cost effective solution for every thing. and your way of looking at the cost aspect is really appreciable.
The use of a standard 802.11 interface will allow any wireless device of that standard to operate as the receiver, depending on the user's purchasing power. Any handheld device can suffice. A special low cost version can be developed by using the Simputer type technology. It was meant to be a hand held computer with a wireless network interface and cost approx. 5K to 10K rupees. Our version need not have any graphics or modem and would simply download and play the web pages into a headphone, with a keyboard.
yes, the thing is that most blind people get funding for such things from else where. and by the way the solution being worked here is pritty cost effective or can be made so.
There are faceless Chinese companies that make the hardware like WAPs for branded companies and such manufacturers can provide the hardware in volume, once the prototypes are made. This will further bring down costs. We get more freedom to load our webpage inside the WAP.
the biggest thing is that go in the faceless market and you get all such things and such companies can be contacted. again I am saying on the basis of such similar projects that cost wont be a big matter. what ever solution is worked out, cost will be certainly worked out and here we are talking about mass purchase as roni rightly said. and plz don't depends on one vender. there are so many companies manufacturing what is needed. so keep the ideas flowing. and let all experience people exploere the possibilities and adjust the fundings. Krishnakant.
On Saturday 02 September 2006 09:45 pm, krishnakant Mane wrote:
The web page will anyway provide only local information so it will not be a heavy page, just some light pages providing information. The text to speech is converted in the receiving device.
The server can server ogg much more effeciently.
Yes that is a kind of lite weight thing and is quite phisible.
The Wireless Access Point ( WAP ) nowadays costs Rs. 2K approx. It is a built-in web server with an 802.11 network interface for broadcast.
Multiply that by 20000 to cover just four metros and see. Besides the cost of having 802.11 in every handheld user device. If u need interaction a central webserver does the job far better. Access that using gprs or cdma cell phone. The problem of orientation is solved by the rails. Each bar can announce it's unique id e.g prabhadevi c. So interactive user enters url http:// mydirections.org/prabhadevi/c/passportoffice and webserver serves up ogg in Amitabh baritone"walk ten paces, turn left, buy asprin at Sar dard chemist stituated at twenty paces and TOI newspaper (both will pay ofcourse to have their brands annouced by Holy rail server), walk ten paces, you are at passport office swallow asprin and enter."
A WAP does not require a license to operate. The built-in web pages can be replaced with the web pages of the locality. The RF power output will be further reduced to allow a 5 to 10 feet range only. So the overall power consumption is only a few watts.
Yes roni, that is what I ment by looking at the cost effective solutions. I am not claiming here that this is the perfect solution. it may or may not be. but this is the kind of work expected from the team. if we explore around we get a lot of cost effective solution for every thing. and your way of looking at the cost aspect is really appreciable.
You would want COTS hardware to allow easy availability and maintanence. While it is easy to reduce capital costs by customising, it is a nightmare to maintain for even small periods - particularly in this case where there is no likely hood of a sustainable revenue stream.
The use of a standard 802.11 interface will allow any wireless device of that standard to operate as the receiver, depending on the user's purchasing power. Any handheld device can suffice. A special low cost version can be developed by using the Simputer type technology.
That was one big farce without an iota of thought about what it was actually trying to do. Grep the list archives a couple of yrs back for some interesting info.
It was meant to be a hand held computer with a wireless network interface and cost approx. 5K to 10K rupees. Our version need not have any graphics or modem and would simply download and play the web pages into a headphone, with a keyboard.
Use a gprs / cdma cell phone. You can never hope in hell to get a better price, availability and service which would be the exact opposit of any custom 802.11 device which a person has to carry merely to find dirctions that he may require occasionally.
IMP: I am just playing the devils advocate and not trying to put down good ideas (although i disagree on their utility for the problem on hand).
jtd wrote:
Multiply that by 20000 to cover just four metros and see.
Any decent FM Tx setup with a recorded speech memory will also cost 1K to 2K. The price of the WAPs can be brought down with mass procurement. We need the populated circuit boards only, not cabinet, power pack, etc.
Besides the cost of having 802.11 in every handheld user device. If u need interaction a central webserver does the job far better. Access that using gprs or cdma cell phone.
This is service provider dependent and they will want their pound of flesh. By having a local system, local population volunteers can *occasionaly* maintain it and update new records. Plus as Vicram has mentioned, on a cell shut-down day, the network will be down.
The problem of orientation is solved by the rails. Each bar can announce it's unique id e.g prabhadevi c. So interactive user enters url http:// mydirections.org/prabhadevi/c/passportoffice
Not practical as a user in hurry cannot be expected to type out a long url. If rail announcers are anyway used then a silght extra cost allows WAPs to be used.
and
webserver serves up ogg in Amitabh baritone"walk ten paces, turn left, buy asprin at Sar dard chemist stituated at twenty paces and TOI newspaper (both will pay ofcourse to have their brands annouced by Holy rail server), walk ten paces, you are at passport office swallow asprin and enter."
Very True! This text can be added in the web page which will be read out in the receiving device.
You would want COTS hardware to allow easy availability and maintanence. While it is easy to reduce capital costs by customising, it is a nightmare to maintain for even small periods - particularly in this case where there is no likely hood of a sustainable revenue stream.
Once the devices are installed, the only maintainence mainly required would be updating new records, which will be done using the same software that was used for setup. For breakdowns, the company that provides the hardware would provide extra units for repair/exchange.
The use of a standard 802.11 interface will allow any wireless device of that standard to operate as the receiver, depending on the user's purchasing power. Any handheld device can suffice. A special low cost version can be developed by using the Simputer type technology.
That was one big farce without an iota of thought about what it was actually trying to do. Grep the list archives a couple of yrs back for some interesting info.
Accepted.
It was meant to be a hand held computer with a wireless network interface and cost approx. 5K to 10K rupees. Our version need not have any graphics or modem and would simply download and play the web pages into a headphone, with a keyboard.
Use a gprs / cdma cell phone. You can never hope in hell to get a better price, availability and service which would be the exact opposit of any custom 802.11 device which a person has to carry merely to find dirctions that he may require occasionally.
That brings up a balancing solution. Nowadays new phones and devices are coming with built-in 802.11 interfaces. So while the user uses the phone for normal communication, it has a small application running in the background to detect railing web pages and automatically download them. If we have members who are familiar with the 802.11 device, then they can help in making our own separate receiver that will... 1. Have an 802.11 interface. 2. A small platforn for running applications. 3. An audio interface. Alternatively we can also see if mobile phone manufacturers are willing to provide cheap handsets with a basic phone function and 802.11 interface only. I believe Motorola is one such company thats trying to make low cost handsets. Once a prototype is available, mass production will bring down costs. If it is meant to help in guiding people with special needs, then more companies may provide technical assistance. If we pioneer such a system, it can go abroad too.
IMP: I am just playing the devils advocate and not trying to put down good ideas (although i disagree on their utility for the problem on hand).
Your analysis is bringing out better alternatives and thats why I admire your foresight. So please put in as many issues that you foresee so that by the time we start, we already have an improvised model to work on.
Regards,
Rony.
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Hello Folks,
Sorry for barging in like this and not participating earlier. Was extremely tied up.
Went through the entire thread, and here is the summery.
The project is to provide digital assistance to visually disabled person digital locational and guidance system.
The system should be simple to implement. it should be low cost. is simple to use. should be maintenance free should be expandable? should be commercially viable?
Here is what I suggest.
Design a simple Blutooth transmitter. (Very sort range) The transmitter can be programmed to give a fix data (Location info and stuff) The transmitter periodically broadcast the programmed data. (every second/minute?) The transmitter can be fixed at the road junctions or on buses/trains or any other public transport.
After going through the difficulties faced by visually challenged persons as put forward by Krishnakant, the difficulties are finding the location info / bus/train info. for the sort distances there is no issues as he/she will get the assistance from the people around.
Now the visually challenge person can have simple Blutooth device capable of receiving the digital location / bus / train info broadcast from the transmitter(s).
Using Blutooth will help extend the possibility of interactivity in the future.
The exact details can be worked out at the design stage of the project. HTH With regards,
Sorry for barging in like this and not participating earlier. Was extremely tied up.
I have been keenly following the thread, and lots of wild ideas have popped up. Here is my 2 cents, 1. Don't try to bring in high tech gadgets, the cost would kill project before it see day light. 2. Don't expect people to spend thousands on devices, India is poor country and need low cost solutions.
Lastly, here is my idea, Install small FM transmitter, covering a distance of 10-15 meter, at all the junction. These will radio a pre recorded message, giving name of square, direction to nearest land marks etc. The message will be continuously played. The transmitter will operate in FM band, so a simple FM radio will work.
This will not only helpful to handicapped, but people who are new to Mumbai, people driving at night and others.
And the cost, the transmitter will with pre recorded voice IC will cost 100-150, and user will need only FM radio.
Best Regards,
Mukund Deshmukh. Beta Computronics Pvt Ltd 10/1, IT Park, Parsodi, Nagpur-440022 Cell - 9422113746
--- Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Besides the cost of having 802.11 in every handheld user device. If u need interaction a central webserver does the job far better. Access that using gprs or cdma cell phone.
Since cost is going to be an issue and someone or sometwos raised this issue, I did some loud thinking too.
How about letting these railings generate revenue? Is it feasible? So you have Ads being transmitted for the benefit of the visually impaired or whichever group is using this system.
Dont flame me yet for bringing an evil commercial aspect into the whole thing, but it seems like something to atleast consider before we bury it. Basically lets not look at this as a cost center but innovative ways to generate revenue from this.
Cross subsidizing can be another way. Where added features are also provided that the superset population can also use and in return they cross subsidize the social aspect of the project.
abhishek
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On Monday 04 September 2006 11:25 am, Abhishek Daga wrote:
How about letting these railings generate revenue? Is it feasible? So you have Ads being transmitted for the benefit of the visually impaired or whichever group is using this system.
railings can generate revenue. But only if they cater to everybody. Did a pilot last yr on something similiar so i know what i am talking about.
Dont flame me yet for bringing an evil commercial aspect into the whole thing, but it seems like something to atleast consider before we bury it. Basically lets not look at this as a cost center but innovative ways to generate revenue from this.
Cross subsidizing can be another way. Where added features are also provided that the superset population can also use and in return they cross subsidize the social aspect of the project.
Absolutely. Rely on governments or charity and both are going to dry up very quickly or wind up being grossly misused.
On Monday 04 September 2006 09:32 pm, Rony wrote:
jtd wrote:
Multiply that by 20000 to cover just four metros and see.
Any decent FM Tx setup with a recorded speech memory will also cost 1K to 2K.
Chinese MP3 player with fm tx. Or your own mp3 player with flash rom. Well under 1k. Add six inch 2W solar panel Rs.2000/- add battery and charger Rs.200/-. Suff everything in the 3" Now add WAP Rs.2000/-. add Additional battery and 2ft 10W solar panel Rs.22000/- Add giant ip66 box for packing all of this along with 15ft mast.
The price of the WAPs can be brought down with mass procurement. We need the populated circuit boards only, not cabinet, power pack, etc.
The cabinet will cost 6 to 10 times the standard cabinet. you need an ip66 rated box.
jtd wrote:
His fm radio is already tuned to a fixed frequency (alloted by govt throught India - maybe the world by ITU) when he reaches the junction he will get brief info about the neighbourhood from the rail. At the same time someone is on the opposite footpath and also wants to go to Ceat building. He too walks up to his rail and recieves a different set of instructions to go to the same location from the Holy rail. As are others on different rails. One just waits a little to recieve the endlessly txd message. Each rail has it's own independent electronics not linked to any thing else.
Looks fine. And FM radios are most easy to buy.
Regards,
Rony.
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Abhishek Daga -
Anurag -
Dinesh Shah -
hemendra jain -
jtd -
krishnakant Mane -
Mukund Deshmukh -
Rony