Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
what about gnewsense?
All these `freedom fighters' should not use Ubuntu. It provides access to non-free software. Ditch. It's not listed on GNU's list of free distributions. Use only one of the free distros listed there, none other. If you don't follow that, shut up and stop preaching about freedom and blah blah.
Freedom comes with right to choose whatever you want. Non-Free too. Provide access and comes with default-non-free-stuffs are different things (If you can understand it).
So, Speakup and don't shut up. Raise your voice, dudes.
<Add some blah blah... n times here>
On Saturday 26 May 2007 12:17:05 Kartik Mistry wrote:
Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
what about gnewsense?
All these `freedom fighters' should not use Ubuntu. It provides access to non-free software. Ditch. It's not listed on GNU's list of free distributions. Use only one of the free distros listed there, none other. If you don't follow that, shut up and stop preaching about freedom and blah blah.
Freedom comes with right to choose whatever you want. Non-Free too. Provide access and comes with default-non-free-stuffs are different things (If you can understand it).
Heh. So why the whole agenda against non-free? Why doesn't the GPL allow non-free useage?
I find this whole agenda hypocritic. Either adhere to it fully before you go on preaching about it or stop preaching it. Why isn't Ubuntu or Gentoo or <insert any other distro here> on GNU's list if it doesn't ship with non-free software by default? And if Novell is evil for making a business deal, why isn't Ubuntu evil for providing such a user-friendly access to non-free software?
So, the way I see it, everyone must follow the principles, only I'm allowed to follow them at my own leisure.
Oh wait. I know what'll happen. Now there will be some a couple of completely irrelevant replies, a couple of trolls and a couple of flames. I see your point - Those who can shout the loudest or use the heaviest language must be correct, right?
On Saturday 26 May 2007 15:53, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
On Saturday 26 May 2007 12:17:05 Kartik Mistry wrote:
Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
what about gnewsense?
All these `freedom fighters' should not use Ubuntu. It provides access to non-free software. Ditch. It's not listed on GNU's list of free distributions. Use only one of the free distros listed there, none other. If you don't follow that, shut up and stop preaching about freedom and blah blah.
Freedom comes with right to choose whatever you want. Non-Free too. Provide access and comes with default-non-free-stuffs are different things (If you can understand it).
Heh. So why the whole agenda against non-free? Why doesn't the GPL allow non-free useage?
I find this whole agenda hypocritic. Either adhere to it fully before you go on preaching about it or stop preaching it. Why isn't Ubuntu or Gentoo or <insert any other distro here> on GNU's list if it doesn't ship with non-free software by default? And if Novell is evil for making a business deal, why isn't Ubuntu evil for providing such a user-friendly access to non-free software?
Cunning twist to a sordid unpardonable action (by microvell). Canonical did not sign up the big bully to beat u up for using free or non free software. Novell did. Nor does anyone tell u what to do with YOUR piece of code. The gpl fobids the use of gpld code in non gpld software because you are robbing all the others to fatten yourself. Or in some cases (like BSD licence) indirectly allowing others to do the same. Write your own code and do as u please. There are millions doing that. As an end user you are going to be in deep trouble using such closed software. Infact most buyers require you to provide the source in an escrow account nowadays.
So, the way I see it, everyone must follow the principles, only I'm allowed to follow them at my own leisure.
Oh wait. I know what'll happen. Now there will be some a couple of completely irrelevant replies, a couple of trolls and a couple of flames. I see your point - Those who can shout the loudest or use the heaviest language must be correct, right?
Wrong. This thread wasnt about gpl to start with but about "ease of use" in a twisted way. First dont provide the specs and / or patent the software making it impossible to use. Then make others invent all sorts of convoluted methods to make the completely unusable "easy to use". Does that sound fishy?. No that's business you know. No doubt companies bite the dust everyday and lay off hundreds inspite of all the "great deals".
hi,
One of the reasons Debian does not make the list is because Debian considers some things the FSF distributes are non-free (the other reason, of course, being that while Debian does not ship non-free software in main, Debian server do have a non-free packages category.) Considering that the FSF ships non-DFSG material, I for one do not see the GNU free distro list as canonical.
manoj
On Sun, 27 May 2007 12:50:44 +0530, Sachin Gopal bomlug@snambiar.com said:
FSF,GPL, Free/non free ideology/business... hmm didn't we have a huge debate on something similar just a couple of months ago ??
Firstly: Dude, you are on a mailing list for a _Linux_ user group. What did you expect? Ideology is the cost of doing business. The software and distributions are created by people passionate about the concept of software freedom, and since we are not the borg, viewpoints are not identical. So some of that spills over. Is it so surprising?
Secondly, if you are honestly wondering about previous contents of the list, browsing mailing list archives helps.
HTH. HAND.
manoj
Ideology is the cost of doing business.
is it really ?? ideology is the basis for politics, looting, peace work, thievery, philanthropy, concentration camps, equal economic standing, unequal rights .. etc etc ... never business ...
The software and distributions are created by people passionate about the
concept of software freedom, and since we are not the borg, viewpoints are not identical. So some of that spills over. Is it so surprising?
nope. was just wondering out aloud ...
Secondly, if you are honestly wondering about previous contents
of the list, browsing mailing list archives helps.
you are soo right .. the advice holds for everyone, don't you think ? :)
Regards, SG
On Sunday 27 May 2007 12:50, Sachin Gopal wrote:
<snip the whole debate>
FSF,GPL, Free/non free ideology/business... hmm didn't we have a huge debate on something similar just a couple of months ago ??
The price of freedom is eternal holywars ;-E. To be fair all opinions are welcome - including the ones we want to wage holywars on - after all my war is holier than yours.
I find this whole agenda hypocritic. Either adhere to it fully before you go on preaching about it or stop preaching it. Why isn't Ubuntu or Gentoo or <insert any other distro here> on GNU's list if it doesn't ship with non-free software by default? And if Novell is evil for making a business deal, why isn't Ubuntu evil for providing such a user-friendly access to non-free software?
That is an TOO extreme a statement.
AFAIK even the GNU project used proprietary tools/apps when no free equivalent existed. It would have been a great blunder not to do so and if they had abandoned the project then just because of that reason we probably would not be having this conversation right now. Their approach instead was to use the non free software, while parallely creating free equivalents. Later on other people followed suit and the result is we have a much better world today than what would have been otherwise.
Ubuntu does package some non free drivers, but its creator also funds the creation of free drivers and is also a strong proponent of the same. It would be absolutely wonderful when those drivers are ready and become part of not just Ubuntu but of the entire distro Universe :-)
As far as Novell goes their deal gives M$ the power to sue Free Software developers and bring their work to a grinding halt - how can you compare the two?
Regards,
- vihan
2007/5/27, Vihan Pandey vihanpandey@gmail.com:
Ubuntu does package some non free drivers, but its creator also funds the creation of free drivers and is also a strong proponent of the same.
Are you absolutely sure about it? If it is true it would be wonderful. Can you give some reference (may be a blog post of his or something like that)
It would be absolutely wonderful when those drivers are ready and become part of not just Ubuntu but of the entire distro Universe :-)
It would be wondeful if he start doing what he preaches. Wouldn't you feel it is hipocrite of him to talk about Free Software when he does not release the software he develops as Free Software (the entire launchpad infrastructure is proprietory). If he thinks Free Software is the right way to go why isn't he releasing launchpad as Free Software?
Cheers Praveen
On 28-May-07, at 9:15 PM, Praveen A wrote:
It would be wondeful if he start doing what he preaches. Wouldn't you feel it is hipocrite of him to talk about Free Software when he does not release the software he develops as Free Software (the entire launchpad infrastructure is proprietory). If he thinks Free Software is the right way to go why isn't he releasing launchpad as Free Software?
is *everybody* your enemy?
2007/5/28, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org:
is *everybody* your enemy?
Having a difference of opinion and expressing it is not same as treating him as enemy. My point is to work on things which you agree with and keep the differences (can be even aggressive) at the same time. Even though I agree with many of Mark's views/actions, I can't support him on this - keeping launchpad proprietary and keep talking about Free Software. My aggression is always based on issues and not on any personal vendetta. It is same with everyone else, I work on issues which are mutually agreeable and raise issues which I don't approve of, if you consider that as enmity then you can take it that way.
Cheers Praveen
Ubuntu does package some non free drivers, but its creator also funds
the
creation of free drivers and is also a strong proponent of the same.
Are you absolutely sure about it? If it is true it would be wonderful. Can you give some reference (may be a blog post of his or something like that)
http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/114
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS6395384305.html
http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki
It
would be absolutely wonderful when those drivers are ready and become
part
of not just Ubuntu but of the entire distro Universe :-)
It would be wondeful if he start doing what he preaches. Wouldn't you feel it is hipocrite of him to talk about Free Software when he does not release the software he develops as Free Software (the entire launchpad infrastructure is proprietory). If he thinks Free Software is the right way to go why isn't he releasing launchpad as Free Software?
To paraphrase what GNU has said : We must not judge all of a person by just part of what they do.
Before you ask for proof for the same, please read this :
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/apsl.html
Mark Shuttleworth has AFAIK - NEVER done anything to harm/hurt Free Software. The only thing one can do is continue requesting Canonical to release launchpad as Free Software and if they are not doing it for some reason to kindly state that.
By the way - has anyone done this so far?
If you have anything else besides the use of launchpad to incriminate him with please post the same.
Regards,
- vihan
2007/5/29, Vihan Pandey vihanpandey@gmail.com:
To paraphrase what GNU has said : We must not judge all of a person by just part of what they do.
I thought he was the founder (and main funder) of Ubuntu and Canonical.
Mark Shuttleworth has AFAIK - NEVER done anything to harm/hurt Free Software. The only thing one can do is continue requesting Canonical to release launchpad as Free Software and if they are not doing it for some reason to kindly state that.
I, for one, don't use Ubuntu anymore, don't recommend it any more until they fix these issues
http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/User:Pravs/What_Ubuntu_should_do_to_regain_my_conf...
So for me gNewSense, Debian, Fedora ... are much more important than Ubuntu (but again it is better than Windows, Suse ...). Freedom aspect is not the top priority for Ubuntu (Ubuntu website highlights Free of Cost availability).
By the way - has anyone done this so far?
I didn't get it. Did you mean anyone released their distro infrastructure?
Debian uses only Free Software for its infrastructure and it promises to give back to the community any new tools created.
"When we write new components of the Debian system, we will license them in a manner consistent with the Debian Free Software Guidelines." http://www.us.debian.org/social_contract
If you have anything else besides the use of launchpad to incriminate him with please post the same.
see the wiki link. It is not just launchpad, the entire data stored in the infrastructure is in proprietary format (Remember the case of bitkeeper). And Ubuntu does not give credit to the GNU project.
"Calling this variant of the GNU system "Linux" plays into the hands of people who choose their software based only on technical advantage, not caring whether it respects their freedom. There are people like Barr, that want their software "free from ideology" and criticize anyone that says freedom matters. There are people like Torvalds that will pressure our community into use of a non-free program, and challenge anyone who complains to provide a (technically) better program immediately or shut up. There are people who say that technical decisions should not be "politicized" by consideration of their social consequences." http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/linux-gnu-freedom.html
So for me Ubuntu is down the list of Free Software distributions and I would support all distributions that gives Freedom more importance than ease of use/technical merit.
You will have to use a non-free program to participate in ubuntu development and your contributions will be stored in a proprietary format, you could retrieve it only through that program (remember bitkeeper).
Again I have no personal hatred against Mark Shuttleworth. He has done a wonderful job in getting GNU/Linux to masses and he is a great speaker and amazingly good at convincing people. But that doesn't mean I have to agree to everything he does.
Cheers Praveen
On 29-May-07, at 5:49 PM, Praveen A wrote:
Again I have no personal hatred against Mark Shuttleworth. He has done a wonderful job in getting GNU/Linux to masses and he is a great speaker and amazingly good at convincing people. But that doesn't mean I have to agree to everything he does.
incidently how do *you* make a living? solely from free software like Stallman? Stallman can say these things since he practices what he preaches. Do you? If not, dont preach.
2007/5/29, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org:
incidently how do *you* make a living? solely from free software like Stallman?
I work in a team which supports Free Softwares (well, the team is called Open Source Middleware) for Hewlett-Packard. We supports businesses which want to deploy Free Software middlewares like MySQL, JBoss, Apache, OpenLDAP... We build expertise in these technologies and offer support for anyone who wants it.
http://h71028.www7.hp.com/enterprise/cache/321150-0-0-0-121.html
Stallman can say these things since he practices what he preaches. Do you? If not, dont preach.
I do, so I can.
Cheers Praveen
<humour> The only reason for *not* using ubuntu ever ought to be the horrible orange-brown theme.. everything else is just ox-crap. </humour>
<rant and last opinion> This list ought to only focus on technical issues around GNU tools and/or linux and/or FOSS.. if anyone wants to push social issues like freedom etc.. then get off the computer and start touring like RMS. Posting 'crap, opinion, POV, ideology, philosophy' on a list doesn't solve real world social issues. </rant and last opinion>
<practice&preach> Since i disapprove of opinions (since right now), i'll be the first to stfu. </practice&preach>
<PS> tags added for those who never seem to get the joke / message. </PS>
On Wed, 30 May 2007 19:59:31 +0530, Dhawal Doshy dhawal@netmagicsolutions.com wrote:
<humour> </humour>
...
<PS> tags added for those who never seem to get the joke / message. </PS>
I guess you forgot this in the beginning: <?xml version="1.0"?>
And your email client didnt set the mime type to Content-Type: application/xml;
Now, the above were supposed to be jokes :-)
Quoting Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com:
2007/5/29, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org:
incidently how do *you* make a living? solely from free software like Stallman?
I work in a team which supports Free Softwares (well, the team is called Open Source Middleware) for Hewlett-Packard. We supports businesses which want to deploy Free Software middlewares like MySQL, JBoss, Apache, OpenLDAP... We build expertise in these technologies and offer support for anyone who wants it.
http://h71028.www7.hp.com/enterprise/cache/321150-0-0-0-121.html
Stallman can say these things since he practices what he preaches. Do you? If not, dont preach.
I do, so I can.
cool - go ahead and preach
On 5/31/07, lawgon@au-kbc.org lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
Quoting Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com:
cool - go ahead and preach
Finally, after three days of resisting temptation, I give in:
Flamewar!!
I didn't know you guys allowed that in ILUG-BOM. Why don't we have new tags for flamewars / trolls / extremely long posts?
--- Nishit Dave wrote:
Why don't we have new tags for flamewars / trolls / extremely long posts?
As indicated by another post, you can have new tags of your own, if you know XML. Only if the discussion goes so bad. Otherwise, we could still save some bandwidth. ;)
-- FSF of India Associate Fellow - http://www.gnu.org.in S K Somaiya College of ASC- http://www.somaiya.edu/sksasc ubunturos @ freenode
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