Well I have had enough. I had made a simple post to help out the multitude of people who I know are not shifting or opting for GNU/Linux because of their IM problems. I am appalled to hear that people find my pompous attitude disgusting. Actually its me who should have been disgusted long ago. Its strange that people on this mailing list can not take some simple tips in a healthy way.
People have given me loads of 'gyan' on how to configure Gaim, Kopete and the like. Let me tell you friends, I have spent the better half of a year trying to configure them, I have tried the so-called normal easy settings. They do not work. I can not comment on people who claim to have got them working from behind a SQUID proxy, but in my case they do not work. The proxy blocks ports such as 5050 and 5222, which are directly used by Google Talk and Yahoo!, and since our sysadmin left its not possible to get them opened. At this point let me point out that my purpose was to make a post to help out others, and not seek help for myself. If you find it unacceptable, then very well, but do not spoil the fresh air. As one of the members have pointed out, I can do some hacking on Gaim by downloading its source code, etc.. I am already on my way my dear friend! And by the way I had tried contacting Google long time back but to no avail. I definitely find your patronosing attitude exteremely disgusting. But do you realise that there are scores of people who do not give a damn about hacking Gaim, who would love to use GNU/Linux if only they had an easy way to solve some of their problems.
Someone also pointed out that Mark had asked us to leave the WIndows users alone, and concentrate on new users. Interesting point, but can you tell me how you would keep the 'new' user 'glued' to GNU/Linux after they find that they can not use their favourite IM service from behind the proxy? Not everyone has the energy to scour the net and hack around to arrive at a solution. I have the time to do it, but hardly any one else has.
So Mr. Philip, Mr. Joshi, and the others, if you can not stand some healthy tips, do not stand them, but do not spoil the atmosphere by your raves and rants!
On 2/7/06, Debarshi 'Rishi' Ray debarshi.ray@gmail.com wrote: [snip]
do not spoil the fresh air. As one of the members have pointed out, I can do some hacking on Gaim by downloading its source code, etc.. I am already on my way my dear friend! And by the way I had tried contacting Google long time back but to no avail. I definitely find your patronosing attitude exteremely disgusting.
Some unsolicited advice about posting. Rule # 1 for a mailing list: Be careful of what you say. What you say is archived and searchable. You may have to eat your words and whats worse that too in public. The web have a way of outliving people. Rule # 2 There is no Rule # 2. Read Rule #1 again.
But do you realise that there are scores of people who do not give a damn about hacking Gaim, who would love to use GNU/Linux if only they had an easy way to solve some of their problems.
Linux is not for everyone. Computer are not specific purpose devices like toasters or microwaves (Who am I kidding? Even these have become increasingly complicated and ship with manuals. Anyways I digress). A computer is not an appliance which when switched on does the work you want. Learning about computers requires quite a bit of time and effort. For information about programming I may point you to Peter Norvigs excellent essay about programming. http://www.norvig.com/21-days.html There will be times when any OS/App will not solve my problem. Eg. No matter how hard I try I can never get some applications to work on Windoze properly. Since I do not have the source I cannot tweak them. Linux gives me that choice and I do it judiciously. If some people see this as a problem there are other OSes which can give them better (hopefully) solutions.
Someone also pointed out that Mark had asked us to leave the WIndows users alone, and concentrate on new users. Interesting point, but can you tell me how you would keep the 'new' user 'glued' to GNU/Linux after they find that they can not use their favourite IM service from behind the proxy? Not everyone has the energy to scour the net and hack around to arrive at a solution. I have the time to do it, but hardly any one else has.
As I said Linux is not for everyone. Learning requires some effort. Besides so many app don't work out-of-the-box even on windows. Also as someone pointed out earlier this problem has already been solved. On Windoze, a lot of time and effort is also spent on keeping malware out.
So Mr. Philip, Mr. Joshi, and the others, if you can not stand some healthy tips, do not stand them, but do not spoil the atmosphere by your raves and rants!
Well I followed the thread and both of them have volunteered some excellent information which you have probably did not care to read. I haven't encountered this problem yet but now I can refer to the earlier thread and get some useful pointers.
--> Vinayak H
On Monday 06 February 2006 20:12, Vinayak Hegde wrote:
Well I followed the thread and both of them have volunteered some excellent information which you have probably did not care to read. I haven't encountered this problem yet but now I can refer to the earlier thread and get some useful pointers.
Perhaps, the next time, debarshi would like to give out more info before asking a question. But thats not a reason of the list to stray from the original topic.
On Tuesday 07 Feb 2006 1:42 am, Vinayak Hegde wrote:
Linux is not for everyone.
it should be - otherwise it is worthless
Computer are not specific purpose devices like toasters or microwaves (Who am I kidding? Even these have become increasingly complicated and ship with manuals. Anyways I digress). A computer is not an appliance which when switched on does the work you want.
it should be - otherwise it is worthless
Learning about computers requires quite a bit of time and effort.
not everyone wants to learn about computers - or needs to learn about computers. Most people just want to learn to *use* computers, and most people learn that without much effort. An elitist attitude towards linux and opensource is what puts off a lot of people
On 07/02/06 09:41 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Tuesday 07 Feb 2006 1:42 am, Vinayak Hegde wrote:
Linux is not for everyone.
it should be - otherwise it is worthless
Computer are not specific purpose devices like toasters or microwaves (Who am I kidding? Even these have become increasingly complicated and ship with manuals. Anyways I digress). A computer is not an appliance which when switched on does the work you want.
it should be - otherwise it is worthless
A computer is a general purpose device. An appliance is a special purpose device. Please be very, very careful about what you are asking for, because the device for the general user != device for the advanced user != device for the programmer.
The important thing about computers is that they are customisable. The price of being able to set policy is having to set policy.
You could replace a computer with appliances. A word processing appliance, a spreadsheet appliance, a browsing and emailing appliance, a voice chat appliance, a gaming appliance.....
If you want one box that does all that, then you pay the price of having increased complexity.
Learning about computers requires quite a bit of time and effort.
not everyone wants to learn about computers - or needs to learn about computers. Most people just want to learn to *use* computers, and most people learn that without much effort. An elitist attitude towards linux and opensource is what puts off a lot of people
Oh no. Most people know how to use a few applications. Using computers is very different, and far more complex.
Devdas Bhagat
On Tuesday 07 Feb 2006 12:07 pm, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
not everyone wants to learn about computers - or needs to learn about computers. Most people just want to learn to *use* computers, and most people learn that without much effort. An elitist attitude towards linux and opensource is what puts off a lot of people
Oh no. Most people know how to use a few applications. Using computers is very different, and far more complex.
most people only want/need a few applications - and the term 'using computers' implies different things for different people. You would look at it from a developer/sysadmin point of view, i look at it from a programmer's point of view, for my typist it is just a glorified typewriter. The only thing is, the more functionality one needs, the more work one has to do - and the more one values open source over closed source. But this does not justify the attitude that 'i am good enough to use linux - not you'. For those who just need a black box that just 'works' - linux should provide it.
On 2/7/06, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@thenilgiris.com wrote:
from a programmer's point of view, for my typist it is just a glorified typewriter. The only thing is, the more functionality one needs, the more work one has to do - and the more one values open source over closed source. But this does not justify the attitude that 'i am good enough to use linux - not you'. For those who just need a black box that just 'works' - linux should provide it.
<rant> No one said that on this list. All that has been said is you need to make an effort to learn and this goes beyond computers. Linux is not a black box. If Linux is a black box, it defeats the whole purpose of Linux as it is supposed to help people what they want to do easily. This can be as easy as changing a preference or as complex and difficult as writing a patch. Choosing what approach you want depends on you. Linux is a choice you make, not what is thrust upon you.
Linux means different things to different people. Assuming that Linux will solve all you problems is unrealistic. It is in this context I said that linux is not for everyone. World domination is not one of the goals of FOSS. But then according to some members it is.
Also increasingly the attitude I am seeing on this list is: I am using linux. Linux is free. Linux has a active community. You people are bound to help me by answering all my queries however ill-researched they may be. Linux may be free as in beer and as in freedom. But support is not a right, it is a privilege. That privilege is the reason why this list exists. Some of us stumbled onto linux and stuck with it. People on this list helped us get started. We are helping people do the same. </rant>
--> Vinayak H
On Tuesday 07 Feb 2006 1:18 pm, Vinayak Hegde wrote:
No one said that on this list. All that has been said is you need to make an effort to learn and this goes beyond computers. Linux is not a black box. If Linux is a black box, it defeats the whole purpose of Linux as it is supposed to help people what they want to do easily.
for those who need a blackbox - linux should be a better black box than windoze (it is).
This can be as easy as changing a preference or as complex and difficult as writing a patch. Choosing what approach you want depends on you. Linux is a choice you make, not what is thrust upon you.
not necessarily. In an office/company environment you get to use what the suits prescribe. If they prescribe linux, you use linux. My typist was happily using redhat 5.2 running wordperfect under dosemu and pine for mail for 4 years. It was a black box for her. But it never crashed and never had a virus and she got her work done.
World domination is not one of the goals of FOSS.
i thought it was - still think so
Also increasingly the attitude I am seeing on this list is: I am using linux. Linux is free. Linux has a active community. You people are bound to help me by answering all my queries however ill-researched they may be.
i see very little of this - except from newbies who come from a different environment and should be educated - not flamed and scared off
Linux may be free as in beer and as in freedom. But support is not a right, it is a privilege. That privilege is the reason why this list exists.
this list exists as part of a community obviously newbies have to be shown how to be part of the community. And it is not just support - i have made a lot of friends, got to know many like minded people and thanks to this list could have an opportunity to meet them - not only in Mumbai, but in many other places too. In fact, with the easy access to the info on the web nowadays, support is becoming a very minor part of the list
On 07/02/06 13:53 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
This can be as easy as changing a preference or as complex and difficult as writing a patch. Choosing what approach you want depends on you. Linux is a choice you make, not what is thrust upon you.
not necessarily. In an office/company environment you get to use what the suits prescribe. If they prescribe linux, you use linux.
And if they expect you to administer the box, you learn. Otherwise they provide you with a sysadmin who can do the setup and troubleshooting and enforce policies.
The point is that there has been some effort invested by someone into converting that general purpose device into a customised black box suitable for _your_ use. Investing that effort is not optional.
Devdas Bhagat
Sometime Today, KG cobbled together some glyphs to say:
that 'i am good enough to use linux - not you'. For those who just need a black box that just 'works' - linux should provide it.
I think it's more like 'I am good enough to set up my own linux box according to my needs - if you're not, get someone to do it for you'. That's the same for any operating system. Very few users actually install their own software, and always at a price.
On Tuesday 07 Feb 2006 3:36 pm, Philip Tellis wrote:
that 'i am good enough to use linux - not you'. For those who just need a black box that just 'works' - linux should provide it.
I think it's more like 'I am good enough to set up my own linux box according to my needs - if you're not, get someone to do it for you'. That's the same for any operating system. Very few users actually install their own software, and always at a price.
yep - i think we need to spread more awareness that you *can* pay to get linux setup the way you want and that a hell of a lot of people *do* pay for it. There is a general misconception that its ok to pay/get paid for windoze installation but a no-no for floss setups. Case in point, in tamilnadu a college asked a lug to set up a floss lab. They spent a full day for installation and training. 6 months later a phone call comes 'to satisfy microsoft we had to format all the harddisks and install XP, please come and reinstall floss'
Computer are not specific purpose devices like toasters or microwaves (Who am I kidding? Even these have become increasingly complicated and ship with manuals. Anyways I digress). A computer is not an appliance which when switched on does the work you want.
it should be - otherwise it is worthless
A computer is a general purpose device. An appliance is a special purpose device. Please be very, very careful about what you are asking for, because the device for the general user != device for the advanced user != device for the programmer.
Actually we need to broaden the definition of a computer here. Here goes my latest example.
Recently setup a vonage phone with MTNL as the ISP at a relative's place. The vonage box is a linksys box (forget the model) and while I have not confirmed it, it may be running on linux or atleast some OS. Has memory, 2 lan cards. Does some computing and processing and therefore a computer with a very specific purpose (IMHO).
The mtnl dlink router does run Linux and pretty much same as above. Both have very specific roles. The place in question has no "computer" as such. (only used for initial settings).
Every device has lights to indicate the status for the various services/slots. Phone works like a charm.
Reliance already has IP TV for the past 1.5 years. It uses something called a CHOISpad. again, I would define it as a computer. With a very specific purpose.
Maybe my post has no relevance, but then atleast i got to boast that i setup and am using a vonage phone. :)
abhi
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On 06/02/06 23:22 -0800, Abhishek Daga wrote:
Computer are not specific purpose devices like toasters or microwaves (Who am I kidding? Even these have become increasingly complicated and ship with manuals. Anyways I digress). A computer is not an appliance which when switched on does the work you want.
it should be - otherwise it is worthless
A computer is a general purpose device. An appliance is a special purpose device. Please be very, very careful about what you are asking for, because the device for the general user != device for the advanced user != device for the programmer.
Actually we need to broaden the definition of a computer here. Here goes my latest example.
Those are appliances. You can't run OOo on the vonage phone. You can't do general purpose computing stuff (aka run random applications) on that phone.
Devdas Bhagat
Actually we need to broaden the definition of a computer here. Here goes my latest example.
Those are appliances. You can't run OOo on the vonage phone. You can't do general purpose computing stuff (aka run random applications) on that phone.
probably I dont care to need to. Thats the whole point.
Another good example would be the highly modified keyboards/terminals at POS terminals. A computer without any ambiguity, but you probably wouldnt be able to use it at home for OO or other things.
Remind me again, what are we arguing about?
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On 07/02/06 02:19 -0800, Abhishek Daga wrote:
Actually we need to broaden the definition of a computer here. Here goes my latest example.
Those are appliances. You can't run OOo on the vonage phone. You can't do general purpose computing stuff (aka run random applications) on that phone.
probably I dont care to need to. Thats the whole point.
Another good example would be the highly modified keyboards/terminals at POS terminals. A computer without any ambiguity, but you probably wouldnt be able to use it at home for OO or other things.
I am not arguing about the definition of computer vs. appliance. In this case, a computer is a general purpose device, an appliance is not.
Remind me again, what are we arguing about?
The requirement that a general purpose operating system on general purpose hardware behave like a black box appliance.
Devdas Bhagat
On Monday 06 February 2006 19:38, Debarshi 'Rishi' Ray wrote:
People have given me loads of 'gyan' on how to configure Gaim, Kopete and the like. Let me tell you friends, I have spent the better half of a year trying to configure them, I have tried the so-called normal easy settings. They do not work. I can not comment on people who claim to have got them working from behind a SQUID proxy, but in my case they do not work. The proxy blocks ports such as 5050 and 5222, which are directly used by Google Talk and Yahoo!, and since our sysadmin left its not possible to get them opened. At this point let me point out that my purpose was to make a post to help out others, and not seek help for myself. If you find it unacceptable, then very well, but do not spoil the fresh air. As one of the members have pointed out, I can do some hacking on Gaim by downloading its source code, etc.. I am already on my way my dear friend! And by the way I had tried contacting Google long time back but to no avail. I definitely find your patronosing attitude exteremely disgusting. But do you realise that there are scores of people who do not give a damn about hacking Gaim, who would love to use GNU/Linux if only they had an easy way to solve some of their problems.
Look. If those proxy settings dont work on Linux then nothing probably will. If windows clients use HTTP proxy to get their messages through Squid then Linux clients should as well. If they dont work then you need to use ethereal / tcpdump to understand what the heck is going on. Tough luck.
-
Abhishek Daga -
Debarshi 'Rishi' Ray -
Devdas Bhagat -
Dinesh A. Joshi -
Dinesh Joshi
-
Kenneth Gonsalves -
Philip Tellis -
Vinayak Hegde