Hi,
One of my friend is in cargo business having 7 PCs.
He asked me to buy windows XP licenses for all 7 PCs.
His employees just check emails and work on office documents such as word, excel, powerpoint.
I told him that Linux can be used easily with few hours training for above mentioned things. I also explained the stability and cost effectiveness of it.
Now the question is, which distribution should we suggest? Which desktop environment? Which email client (closer to Outlook look and feel) ?
Please suggest.
On Monday 15 Feb 2010 10:11:35 am Richard Victor Correia wrote:
Now the question is, which distribution should we suggest? Which desktop environment? Which email client (closer to Outlook look and feel) ?
mandriva+kde+evolution - they won't even know that it is not doze
Richard Victor Correia wrote:
Now the question is, which distribution should we suggest? Which desktop environment? Which email client (closer to Outlook look and feel) ?
Thunderbird is the closest to Outlook Express and the Linux version is quite stable as I have been using it for many years. Avoid the doze version as it keeps forgetting profiles even after so many years and versions. As distros, Ubuntu and Kubuntu have 'live + install' CDs that can be popped into the current machines to check out compatibility and speed of operation. If not the latest ones, try one version earlier. For older machines use Debian 5 (Lenny).
On 2/15/2010 10:46 AM, Rony wrote:
Richard Victor Correia wrote:
Now the question is, which distribution should we suggest? Which desktop environment? Which email client (closer to Outlook look and feel) ?
Thunderbird is the closest to Outlook Express and the Linux version is quite stable as I have been using it for many years. Avoid the doze version as it keeps forgetting profiles even after so many years and versions. As distros, Ubuntu and Kubuntu have 'live + install' CDs that can be popped into the current machines to check out compatibility and speed of operation. If not the latest ones, try one version earlier. For older machines use Debian 5 (Lenny).
You are suggesting debian for a new user moving from windows to linux ? Debian must have changed drastically since i tried it last
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 10:11 AM, Richard Victor Correia <richard@florix.net
wrote:
Hi,
One of my friend is in cargo business having 7 PCs.
He asked me to buy windows XP licenses for all 7 PCs.
His employees just check emails and work on office documents such as word, excel, powerpoint.
I told him that Linux can be used easily with few hours training for above mentioned things. I also explained the stability and cost effectiveness of it.
Now the question is, which distribution should we suggest? Which desktop environment? Which email client (closer to Outlook look and feel) ?
Please suggest.
From what I have observed in the past, this thread will soon become a
battleground of various 'linux advocates' suggesting variety of distros (some may even suggest Arch Linux!). What I would suggest is that you pick a few Gnome as well as KDE based livecd distros and give a demo to your friend. Let him pick the one he feels comfortable with. I have been most comfortable with deb based installation system since it takes care of dependencies well. Mind you there will be as many opinions as the distros available, but it is finally the end-user who should 'feel at home' with the system that is installed. So it will ultimately be your/your friend's call.
Keep reading and have fun ;-)
Regards,
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 10:11 AM, Richard Victor Correia <richard@florix.net
wrote:
I told him that Linux can be used easily with few hours training for above mentioned things. I also explained the stability and cost effectiveness of it.
Now the question is, which distribution should we suggest? Which desktop environment? Which email client (closer to Outlook look and feel) ?
Distribution and desktop environment don't matter as much. Applications do matter. Moreover you need a knowledgeable person, usually the sys admin inside the organisation who will get along with the people, guide them and help them as and when needed. This is more important as compared to which distro or DE to choose. I've had experience where couple of accountants wanted to use KDE whereas rest of the people were happy with default of GNOME.
After it is setup, Debian is just like any other desktop. KDE or Gnome.
On 15/02/2010, Saswata Banerjee scrapo@saswatabanerjee.com wrote:
On 2/15/2010 10:46 AM, Rony wrote:
Richard Victor Correia wrote:
Now the question is, which distribution should we suggest? Which desktop environment? Which email client (closer to Outlook look and feel) ?
Thunderbird is the closest to Outlook Express and the Linux version is quite stable as I have been using it for many years. Avoid the doze version as it keeps forgetting profiles even after so many years and versions. As distros, Ubuntu and Kubuntu have 'live + install' CDs that can be popped into the current machines to check out compatibility and speed of operation. If not the latest ones, try one version earlier. For older machines use Debian 5 (Lenny).
You are suggesting debian for a new user moving from windows to linux ? Debian must have changed drastically since i tried it last -- http://mm.glug-bom.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
On Monday 15 February 2010 11:43:28 Saswata Banerjee wrote:
You are suggesting debian for a new user moving from windows to linux ? Debian must have changed drastically since i tried it last
It has. Install is completely automated. If you have dhcp server setup. Except user name and password no inputs are required.
Try linux mint.. mint will support .exe file.
--- On Mon, 15/2/10, Richard Victor Correia richard@florix.net wrote:
From: Richard Victor Correia richard@florix.net Subject: [ILUG-BOM] Linux desktops for new users To: "GNU/Linux Users Group, Mumbai, India" linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Date: Monday, 15 February, 2010, 10:11 AM
Hi,
One of my friend is in cargo business having 7 PCs.
He asked me to buy windows XP licenses for all 7 PCs.
His employees just check emails and work on office documents such as word, excel, powerpoint.
I told him that Linux can be used easily with few hours training for above mentioned things. I also explained the stability and cost effectiveness of it.
Now the question is, which distribution should we suggest? Which desktop environment? Which email client (closer to Outlook look and feel) ?
Please suggest.
On 2/15/2010 2:19 PM, jtd wrote:
On Monday 15 February 2010 11:43:28 Saswata Banerjee wrote:
You are suggesting debian for a new user moving from windows to linux ? Debian must have changed drastically since i tried it last
It has. Install is completely automated. If you have dhcp server setup. Except user name and password no inputs are required.
Good to hear that. It used to be a pain to work with earlier (for a non-geek at least)
Don't forget that if you have just 2 dvds of debian, you almost have all the packages. VLC, Clipart, all codecs etc.
Happy hacking. Krishnakant. On Monday 15 February 2010 10:55 PM, Saswata Banerjee wrote:
On 2/15/2010 2:19 PM, jtd wrote:
On Monday 15 February 2010 11:43:28 Saswata Banerjee wrote:
You are suggesting debian for a new user moving from windows to linux ? Debian must have changed drastically since i tried it last
It has. Install is completely automated. If you have dhcp server setup. Except user name and password no inputs are required.
Good to hear that. It used to be a pain to work with earlier (for a non-geek at least)
<-- Suse Fan... :) Give opensuse 11.2 a chance. Evolution works very well for me apart from the occasional dual copy dload. Also i find zypper to be extremely powerful & handy.
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 11:56 PM, hackingKK hackingkk@gmail.com wrote:
Don't forget that if you have just 2 dvds of debian, you almost have all the packages. VLC, Clipart, all codecs etc.
Happy hacking. Krishnakant. On Monday 15 February 2010 10:55 PM, Saswata Banerjee wrote:
On 2/15/2010 2:19 PM, jtd wrote:
On Monday 15 February 2010 11:43:28 Saswata Banerjee wrote:
You are suggesting debian for a new user moving from windows to linux ? Debian must have changed drastically since i tried it last
It has. Install is completely automated. If you have dhcp server setup. Except user name and password no inputs are required.
Good to hear that. It used to be a pain to work with earlier (for a non-geek at least)
Let the poor user use windows.....
people gave such huge diversified answers ....
he will be at the end of the day perplexed...
this is exactly why people are not coming to linux.... let him start with any linux whch meets his specs....
On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Rahul Jayaraman rahul@moqshh.com wrote:
<-- Suse Fan... :) Give opensuse 11.2 a chance. Evolution works very well for me apart from the occasional dual copy dload. Also i find zypper to be extremely powerful & handy.
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 11:56 PM, hackingKK hackingkk@gmail.com wrote:
Don't forget that if you have just 2 dvds of debian, you almost have all the packages. VLC, Clipart, all codecs etc.
Happy hacking. Krishnakant. On Monday 15 February 2010 10:55 PM, Saswata Banerjee wrote:
On 2/15/2010 2:19 PM, jtd wrote:
On Monday 15 February 2010 11:43:28 Saswata Banerjee wrote:
You are suggesting debian for a new user moving from windows to linux ? Debian must have changed drastically since i tried it last
It has. Install is completely automated. If you have dhcp server setup. Except user name and password no inputs are required.
Good to hear that. It used to be a pain to work with earlier (for a non-geek at least)
-- Best Regards, Rahul Jayaraman
+91 9819619320
sudheer k muhammed wrote:
Let the poor user use windows.....
people gave such huge diversified answers ....
he will be at the end of the day perplexed...
this is exactly why people are not coming to linux.... let him start with any linux whch meets his specs....
The user will only use KDE or Gnome in any distro. It is for the guy who will set it up to decide on which distro. This guy has to be knowledgeable or else the migration can become a disappointing experience for all.
for a linuxgeek ok ...
will be able to figure out what is ubuntu gentoo suse bsd redhat fedora debian knoppix sabily centos slackware mandriva ,mint.....
hearing all these a normal winow user may become dishearted "there is a problem of many"
one couldn't test all in his life time ....
to smooth transition we shoud be able to guide.....
that was my whole point......
many of my friends does not migrate for the same reason.......
On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
sudheer k muhammed wrote:
Let the poor user use windows.....
people gave such huge diversified answers ....
he will be at the end of the day perplexed...
this is exactly why people are not coming to linux.... let him start with any linux whch meets his specs....
The user will only use KDE or Gnome in any distro. It is for the guy who will set it up to decide on which distro. This guy has to be knowledgeable or else the migration can become a disappointing experience for all.
-- Regards,
Rony.
GNU/Linux ! No Viruses No Spyware Only Freedom.
On Wednesday 17 February 2010 11:05:28 sudheer k muhammed wrote:
Let the poor user use windows.....
people gave such huge diversified answers ....
he will be at the end of the day perplexed...
this is exactly why people are not coming to linux.... let him start with any linux whch meets his specs....
Yeah. Like people have a choice of ten airlines and one railways. We all know how thrilling Xtreme sportz of rail travail is. I love such precise scientific logic.
I personally like having choices. Imagine having a 'PLAN B' for a 'PLANB' for a 'PLANB'. A 'poor windows user' who refuses to appreciate this is probably very resistant to change. Any change.
On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 11:55 AM, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
On Wednesday 17 February 2010 11:05:28 sudheer k muhammed wrote:
Let the poor user use windows.....
people gave such huge diversified answers ....
he will be at the end of the day perplexed...
this is exactly why people are not coming to linux.... let him start with any linux whch meets his specs....
Yeah. Like people have a choice of ten airlines and one railways. We all know how thrilling Xtreme sportz of rail travail is. I love such precise scientific logic.
-- Rgds JTD -- http://mm.glug-bom.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
sudheer k muhammed wrote:
for a linuxgeek ok ...
will be able to figure out what is ubuntu gentoo suse bsd redhat fedora debian knoppix sabily centos slackware mandriva ,mint.....
hearing all these a normal winow user may become dishearted "there is a problem of many"
one couldn't test all in his life time ....
to smooth transition we shoud be able to guide.....
that was my whole point......
many of my friends does not migrate for the same reason.......
The whole point is that installations are done by experts and using is done by users. This rule applies to any OS. The normal windows user only uses the system, he does not install it. Installation is done by the 'computerwalla' who is supposed to be an expert.
Unless you are using a mobile device where it is not possible, try to post your reply below the original text.
On Wednesday 17 February 2010 13:24:31 Rahul Jayaraman wrote:
I personally like having choices. Imagine having a 'PLAN B' for a 'PLANB' for a 'PLANB'. A 'poor windows user' who refuses to appreciate this is probably very resistant to change. Any change.
well you have plan A or Plan B or Plan C OR Plan A or Plan B or Plan B or Plan B else Plan c or Plan C or Plan see
There are alternatives galore. Without knowing your precise needs, and quite often even after knowing, one really is hard pressed for making a decision.
Take the case of cellular services - operators galore, plans ad nauseum, phones too numerous to list. I have yet to hear of someone not using cell phones because there are too many operators and plans and phones. Or of someone with a problem not switching becaase he has choices.
We are surrounded by choices. Hide head in the sand get poket picked.
Has anyone asked one or more Windows users why they don't migrate to Linux and try to mitigate the expressed short comings of Linux?
regards hg
Rahul Jayaraman wrote:
I personally like having choices. Imagine having a 'PLAN B' for a 'PLANB' for a 'PLANB'. A 'poor windows user' who refuses to appreciate this is probably very resistant to change. Any change.
On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 11:55 AM, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
On Wednesday 17 February 2010 11:05:28 sudheer k muhammed wrote:
Let the poor user use windows.....
people gave such huge diversified answers ....
he will be at the end of the day perplexed...
this is exactly why people are not coming to linux.... let him start with any linux whch meets his specs....
Yeah. Like people have a choice of ten airlines and one railways. We all know how thrilling Xtreme sportz of rail travail is. I love such precise scientific logic.
-- Rgds JTD -- http://mm.glug-bom.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
On Tuesday 27 July 2010 07:51 PM, h.godavari wrote:
Has anyone asked one or more Windows users why they don't migrate to Linux and try to mitigate the expressed short comings of Linux?
Please post your reply below the original text.
The whole point is that installations are done by experts and using is done by users. This rule applies to any OS. The normal windows user only uses the system, he does not install it. Installation is done by the 'computerwalla' who is supposed to be an expert.
In small companies there is no hope of getting a Linux admin, unless a distro is "Shut and forget", things are not going to work. Things have to be easy enough for computerwalla and there will be a new one every time.
I would advice :
1. Ask him to buy all PCs with same configuration 2. If you have some time, burn 2 - 3 distributions (Ubuntu,Suse etc) 3. See which ones work out of box on these 4. [IMP] see if the distro has proper drivers for printers. 5. [Most IMP] See which ones have auto update working out of box 6. Setup icons on desktop with clear labels (Like Office for Open Office,Word for Writer, Excel for calc, Internet Browser for mozilla) 7. Teach computer vendor how to reimage systems when required
If auto update fails, users would keep running vulnerable versions of Mozilla. This is the biggest threat. Issues like XSS are no longer dependent on OS.
-Shamit http://shamit.in/dpal
On Tuesday 27 July 2010 19:51:49 h.godavari wrote:
Has anyone asked one or more Windows users why they don't migrate to Linux and try to mitigate the expressed short comings of Linux?
People write free software mostly to help themselves. Given the unbelievable depth and breadth of the FOSS eco system why would anyone bother with the M$ mess. There are relatively very few projects specifically attempting to solve a M$ism. CIFS for example, and doest it WORK? IMO it is better than anyting M$ can come up with. ANy attempt to imitate M$isms would be a ridiculosly retrograde step.
As a perespective, M$ announced increased revenues due to increased uptake of Vista, by users switching from XP. It is well known that the migratory path is full of deep holes, yet the admins / users prefer a steep cost, the old mess + the new mess.
Do rid yourself of romantic notions of "helping" a bunch of morons.
Hi,
On 07/27/2010 07:51 PM, h.godavari wrote:
Has anyone asked one or more Windows users why they don't migrate to Linux and try to mitigate the expressed short comings of Linux?
Has anyone asked one or more Britney Spears fans why they don't listen to Morzat and try to mitigate the expressed short comings of Morzat ?
Has anyone asked one or more David Dhavan fans why they don't watch Satyajit Ray movies and try to mitigate the expressed short comings of Satyajit Ray ?
Has anyone asked one or more Tom Clancy/Dean Koontz/John Grisham/Danielle Steele readers why they don't read Shakespeare and try to mitigate the expressed short comings of Shakespeare ?
Like jtd said, using different terms, the first step for people to accept linux is to understand that it is *not* windows. Comparing the two is ultimately a waste of time. Building something that makes windows users feel at home on linux is an even bigger waste of time (although a lot of very smart people keep trying ...for whatever reason -- maybe just the hack quotient involved).
If you do want to migrate windows users to linux, the first step would be to educate them about the 'motivations' behind the existence of linux and explain that it is a different system with different (in fact, better) design principles and policies.
Linux no longer needs to prove itself. We've now have had more than half of a kickass decade of the linux desktop and clueless people still wonder when would be the year that linux would take off in the desktop market.
Smart people are out there, making bucket-loads of money by adopting a linux policy and there exists whole markets where linux virtually has no competition (cloud computing, mobile platforms, embedded smart devices ...etc), but some people caught in the era of windows will still cling to the familiar. Well, they'll end up right besides the cobol users and people who think the internet is something you install on your computer. Let them be.
cheers, - steve
On Wednesday 28 July 2010 02:16 PM, steve wrote:
Linux no longer needs to prove itself. We've now have had more than half of a kickass decade of the linux desktop and clueless people still wonder when would be the year that linux would take off in the desktop market.
Maybe true in offices that have their applications working in Linux. Otherwise for desktops, doze still rules not because it is popular but because the user's specific applications run on it. The user does not have other options. One good thing that FOSS has done is that pricey closed software are now more affordable due to open alternatives.
Migration requires solution providers not service providers. The lower end market cannot afford solution providers and make do with service providers. A service provider can install LInux and even migrate cross platform data but for the limited time and returns, he cannot spend too much time on training, programming, and figuring out how to install hardware that the customer suddenly springs up, to work in Linux. I will give an example. A client of mine wanted to buy a netbook from me and I had told him about the advantages of Linux but the way he readily agreed to it and slowly gave me a list of things that should work on it made me feel that he is going to face problems with hardware that he might add later. I got him a netbook with XP pre-installed and he is using it happily without constantly calling me up for any help. Everything else in it is either freeware or doze based FOSS like OpenOffice, Firefox, VLC player, freeware anti-virus etc.
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 10:11 AM, Richard Victor Correia <richard@florix.net
wrote:
Please suggest.
I'd very strongly suggest Ubuntu. I recently visited my client (a small finance company) who have installed Ubuntu for their employees and they just love it. One major plus point for them is the ease of getting a new package/software. UI of ubuntu is very polished and non-technical users also grasp it quickly.
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 12:10 AM, Piyush Ranjan piyush.pr@gmail.com wrote:
One major plus point for them is the ease of getting a new package/software. UI of ubuntu is very polished and non-technical users also grasp it quickly.
Interesting - is the Ubuntu UI significantly different from the GNOME UI?
-- Arun Khan
Hi
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Arun Khan knura9@gmail.com wrote:
Interesting - is the Ubuntu UI significantly different from the GNOME UI?
--
Maybe not significantly, but Ubuntu has a specially constituted UI team working on enhancements to the GNOME UI, one case in point being the indicator applet ,the menu options on the windows which will have some additional options other than close , minimise etc . Also, the sound applet is quite different than the GNOME one as of maverick ubuntu 10.10.
rajeev
On Thursday 29 July 2010 05:12 PM, Rajeev Nair wrote:
Maybe not significantly, but Ubuntu has a specially constituted UI team working on enhancements to the GNOME UI, one case in point being the indicator applet ,the menu options on the windows which will have some additional options other than close , minimise etc . Also, the sound applet is quite different than the GNOME one as of maverick ubuntu 10.10.
I was a KDE fan cum user but now I find that gnome is very ergonomic and organised in what one wants from the desktop environment.
On 07/29/2010 05:12 PM, Rajeev Nair wrote:
Maybe not significantly, but Ubuntu has a specially constituted UI team working on enhancements to the GNOME UI, one case in point being the indicator applet ,the menu options on the windows which will have some additional options other than close , minimise etc . Also, the sound applet is quite different than the GNOME one as of maverick ubuntu 10.10.
Don't want all the Ubuntu fanbois to get their underpants in a knot, but ORLY ?
http://blogs.gnome.org/bolsh/2010/07/28/gnome-census/
Ubuntu contributing back ?
cheers, - steve
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 6:44 PM, steve steve@lonetwin.net wrote:
On 07/29/2010 05:12 PM, Rajeev Nair wrote:
Maybe not significantly, but Ubuntu has a specially constituted UI team working on enhancements to the GNOME UI, one case in point being the indicator applet ,the menu options on the windows which will have some additional options other than close , minimise etc . Also, the sound applet is quite different than the GNOME one as of maverick ubuntu 10.10.
Don't want all the Ubuntu fanbois to get their underpants in a knot, but
ORLY ?
http://blogs.gnome.org/bolsh/2010/07/28/gnome-census/
Ubuntu contributing back ?
Iam not sure why you have aimed this at me or what 'underpants in a knot'
means , i was just replying to a query posted by Arun Khan about the differences in the UI.I havent mentioned if its a change for the better or whether i like it or not.
rajeev
On 07/29/2010 06:52 PM, Rajeev Nair wrote:
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 6:44 PM, stevesteve@lonetwin.net wrote:
On 07/29/2010 05:12 PM, Rajeev Nair wrote:
Maybe not significantly, but Ubuntu has a specially constituted UI team working on enhancements to the GNOME UI, one case in point being the indicator applet ,the menu options on the windows which will have some additional options other than close , minimise etc . Also, the sound applet is quite different than the GNOME one as of maverick ubuntu 10.10.
Don't want all the Ubuntu fanbois to get their underpants in a knot, but
ORLY ?
http://blogs.gnome.org/bolsh/2010/07/28/gnome-census/
Ubuntu contributing back ?
Iam not sure why you have aimed this at me or what 'underpants in a knot'
means , i was just replying to a query posted by Arun Khan about the differences in the UI.I havent mentioned if its a change for the better or whether i like it or not.
*sigh*, since when did 'all' start meaning 'you' ? ...and 'underpants in a knot' is just an expression[1], and i replied mailed it to the mailing list. Ok, I apologize if I managed to offend you. It was unintentional. The only reason, I even replied was to dispel the mistaken notion that Ubuntu does anything community related. Ubuntu is a bad community member.
cheers, - steve
http://www.google.com/search?q=underpants+in+a+knot
The only reason, I even replied was to dispel the mistaken notion that Ubuntu does anything community related. Ubuntu is a bad community member. http://lonetwin.stumbleupon.com/ http://mm.glug-bom.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
Users can't care less about this aspect. For them, OS is like AC in the car.
Most of them would not even care which brand of AC is used as long as it works AND can be repaired by service centers.
For users, if its easiest to find support for Ubuntu, then they will use Ubuntu.
Fankly, we need a "Redhat for Masses". Redhat is great at support, similarly if any end user is stuck, they should be able to pay a reasonable fee and call someone to fix their problem. Just what Redhat does for Enterprise.
-Shamit http://shamit.in
On Thursday 29 July 2010 10:33 PM, Shamit Verma wrote:
For users, if its easiest to find support for Ubuntu, then they will use Ubuntu.
Ubuntu is an important step in moving towards Debian.
On Thursday 29 July 2010 8:29:56 pm steve wrote:
Ubuntu is a bad community member.
Ubuntu does have the biggest user base. Some even say its around 60% of the linux user base. thats a big number of testers, not saying everyone reports bugs but a good many do. That is a considerable contribution. On the other hand most of the changes Ubuntu makes are targeted towards improving/polishing user experience even if they involve ugly hacks which i don't think will easily propagate upstream.
On Thursday 29 July 2010 11:07:47 pm Rony wrote:
Ubuntu is an important step in moving towards Debian.
yea it was my first distro and went on to debian after that. Right now im playing arround with gentoo. so id say its good introduction to linux in general.
-Yohan
On Wednesday 28 July 2010 19:02:44 Rony wrote:
On Wednesday 28 July 2010 02:16 PM, steve wrote:
Linux no longer needs to prove itself. We've now have had more than half of a kickass decade of the linux desktop and clueless people still wonder when would be the year that linux would take off in the desktop market.
Maybe true in offices that have their applications working in Linux. Otherwise for desktops, doze still rules not because it is popular but because the user's specific applications run on it. The user does not have other options. One good thing that FOSS has done is that pricey closed software are now more affordable due to open alternatives.
Migration requires solution providers not service providers. The lower end market cannot afford solution providers and make do with service providers. A service provider can install LInux and even migrate cross platform data but for the limited time and returns, he cannot spend too much time on training, programming, and figuring out how to install hardware that the customer suddenly springs up, to work in Linux.
This is a characteristic of a market and has very little to do with competence (performance, training, cost etc). The characteristic is "unplanned, ill defined needs and worthless data".
Regarding affordability, the logic is the same as buying a good pair of shoes (or visiting a competent doctor) and preventing longterm ankle / knee / lower back problems. WITH ONE MASSIVE DIFFERENCE: while one cannot become a self tutored competent doctor / lawyer or self medicate, one can most certainly learn to use linux and obtain help from innumerable free sources (this list being one such).
The "poor suffering user swallowing his fix of morphine" is just a grim fairy tale.
I will give an example. A client of mine wanted to buy a netbook from me and I had told him about the advantages of Linux but the way he readily agreed to it and slowly gave me a list of things that should work on it made me feel that he is going to face problems with hardware that he might add later. I got him a netbook with XP pre-installed and he is using it happily without constantly calling me up for any help. Everything else in it is either freeware or doze based FOSS like OpenOffice, Firefox, VLC player, freeware anti-virus etc.
I am sure the value of his data is zero.
As an example, just recently installed a cifs server and a proxy + mail server. All data is on the server, all clients are doze with tally (versions 4 to the latest), all stuff from the net is scanned. All files closed_after_write are scanned. I maintain only one machine and dont give a damn how many times he formats his doze boxes. when he finally gets fed up he will switch. Obviously he valuse his data to have such a setup, i.e AFTER undergoing a couple of disasters.
There is a solution, provided you really need one. If he cant "afford" it who cares. After all we are not talking of business not starvation deaths or lack of medicare deaths.
Hi,
On 07/29/2010 10:33 PM, Shamit Verma wrote:
The only reason, I even replied was to dispel the mistaken notion that Ubuntu does anything community related. Ubuntu is a bad community member.
Users can't care less about this aspect. For them, OS is like AC in the car.
Most of them would not even care which brand of AC is used as long as it works AND can be repaired by service centers.
Well, that's not the point I was trying to make. My comment was not about what users want. For a lot of people, even windows works (for a certain definition of works). The problem with Ubuntu is they don't give back. They might be popular but they not only disregard the spirit of the game (which is the whole point of FOSS -- *collective* growth and innovation) but also openly and hypocritically position themselves as champions of the cause.
Ubuntu cannot even claim to be strapped for resources. Please take a look at this:
http://lwn.net/Articles/247582/ http://blogs.gnome.org/bolsh/2010/07/28/gnome-census/
...forget Red Hat, Sun, IBM, Novell and the other big names, I am willing to bet you would not have heard of all the names there that contribute more than Ubuntu does. You would not even have guessed that companies like Nokia, Oracle and Netapp contribute more than Ubuntu does. It doesn't take much to gain the respect of the community, but cannonical would rather spend resources on PR than working with the community. They are your typical leacher ...only at a larger scale.
Anyways, enough ranting. As I said, I don't want Ubuntu fanbois to get their knickers in a knot.
cheers, - steve
On Friday 30 July 2010 00:37:50 steve wrote:
community, but cannonical would rather spend resources on PR than working with the community. They are your typical leacher ...only at a larger scale.
Hmm. PR and some good old antiFUD FUD directed at serfland perhaps? IMO that would be a more useful contributions than their "upstream contributions"
I use Ubuntu as a quick-n-dirty check what hardware works distro, before downloading and building sources.
On Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:07:47 pm Rony wrote:
On Thursday 29 July 2010 10:33 PM, Shamit Verma wrote:
For users, if its easiest to find support for Ubuntu, then they will use Ubuntu.
Ubuntu is an important step in moving towards Debian.
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On Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:36:17 pm Yohan Pereira wrote:
Ubuntu is a bad community member.
Ubuntu does have the biggest user base. Some even say its around 60% of the linux user base.
where did you get these figures from?
thats a big number of testers, not saying everyone reports bugs but a good many do. That is a considerable contribution. On the other hand most of the changes Ubuntu makes are targeted towards improving/polishing user experience even if they involve ugly hacks which i don't think will easily propagate upstream.
in my part of the country, most first time users who start with Ubuntu give up and go back to doze - a first time user should be given mandriva or suse where everything works out of the box. Not ubuntu - where a lot of things are b0rked and need tuning.
On Friday 30 July 2010 6:27:57 am Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
where did you get these figures from?
"Web statistics suggest that Ubuntu's share of Linux desktop usage is about 50%" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_(operating_system)
ok not 60% like i had mentioned before, had read that somewhere else. Due to the method used to record these figures, they tend to vary from source to source.
in my part of the country, most first time users who start with Ubuntu give up and go back to doze - a first time user should be given mandriva or suse where everything works out of the box. Not ubuntu - where a lot of things are b0rked and need tuning.
i think most users shift back to doze because of unfamiliarity and rigidness. People who learn by memorizing the steps involved in doing a task(like first click here, then click there, then type this etc) rather than what they are actually doing will generally find it hard to get accustomed to a different environment. Availability of Application is an issue to but I think its a smaller issue considering that most Commercial application have a equally powerful Free alternative albeit usually with a different interface (like gimp). Hardware problems and "out of box"ness i think is an even smaller issue.
On Friday, July 30, 2010 12:29:00 pm Yohan Pereira wrote:
On Friday 30 July 2010 6:27:57 am Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
where did you get these figures from?
"Web statistics suggest that Ubuntu's share of Linux desktop usage is about 50%" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_(operating_system)
wikipedia is not an authorative source for anything
ok not 60% like i had mentioned before, had read that somewhere else. Due to the method used to record these figures, they tend to vary from source to source.
looking at the so-called web statistics, they seem to be counting hits from various types of OS - this would hardly reflect market share. More Ubuntu users are frantically crawling the net to solve their problems, does not imply that there are more ubuntu users than all the other distros put together.
in my part of the country, most first time users who start with Ubuntu give up and go back to doze - a first time user should be given mandriva or suse where everything works out of the box. Not ubuntu - where a lot of things are b0rked and need tuning.
i think most users shift back to doze because of unfamiliarity and rigidness. People who learn by memorizing the steps involved in doing a task(like first click here, then click there, then type this etc) rather than what they are actually doing will generally find it hard to get accustomed to a different environment. Availability of Application is an issue to but I think its a smaller issue considering that most Commercial application have a equally powerful Free alternative albeit usually with a different interface (like gimp). Hardware problems and "out of box"ness i think is an even smaller issue.
this is not a question of 'think' - it is a question of fact. Every single person I have seen who has migrated back has done so on only one issue - hardware compatibility. And I know any number people who keep dual boot for the same reason.
I bought a netbook with Suse for my daughter - gave it to her and said probably sound, movies, wireless and tata indicom wont work, if they don't give it to the lab for the geeks to tweak - but everything worked out of the box.
On Friday 30 July 2010 12:45:51 pm Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
looking at the so-called web statistics, they seem to be counting hits from various types of OS - this would hardly reflect market share.
true ... but its better than assuming.
More Ubuntu users are frantically crawling the net to solve their problems, does not imply that there are more ubuntu users than all the other distros put together.
http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportOperatingSystems.htm
who searches sites hosted by wikimedia for ubuntu related problems?
this is not a question of 'think' - it is a question of fact. Every single person I have seen who has migrated back has done so on only one issue - hardware compatibility. And I know any number people who keep dual boot for the same reason.
Have they tried suse or mandriva and had better results?
I bought a netbook with Suse for my daughter - gave it to her and said probably sound, movies, wireless and tata indicom wont work, if they don't give it to the lab for the geeks to tweak - but everything worked out of the box.
have you tried booting a ubuntu live cd(probably no cdrom so try a live usb stick)? Since you got it with suse all the drivers (for the wifi) are already installed by the manufacturer. On ubuntu you might have to follow the prompts and get them installed. Oh and don't forget the nonfree codecs for sound and video(this more of an ethical issue than incompetence of the distro).
Hardware problems that effect ubuntu will usually affect other distributions using the same software versions. for example my Pc at home has a intel D101GCC motherboards one of the few intel motherboards with an ATI graphics card. rite from ubuntu 9.10 onwards ive had problems with the graphics drivers they simply don't work. this turns out to be because ATI decided to drop support for my gfx card from its newer drivers and Newer versions of Xorg do not support the old driver. A friend of mine had the same problem with his old Via graphics card. Problems like these are not distribution specific.
this is not a question of 'think' - it is a question of fact. Every single person I have seen who has migrated back has done so on only one issue - hardware compatibility. And I know any number people who keep dual boot for the same reason. --
Is there a technical reason for One Distro having better hardware
compatibility than other? Given that most drivers are Open Source, should be easy to build drivers into distro if it is already available for Linux.
On Friday 30 July 2010 06:24 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:07:47 pm Rony wrote:
On Thursday 29 July 2010 10:33 PM, Shamit Verma wrote:
For users, if its easiest to find support for Ubuntu, then they will use Ubuntu.
Ubuntu is an important step in moving towards Debian.
-- As a proper list etiquette... Please trim your replies. Post your replies below the relevant original text. Do not re-use old messages to write new ones.
and leave one blank line between the quoted matter and your post
Did it happen in my post or it is a general remark? I will re-check my settings.
Hi,
On 07/30/2010 05:47 PM, Shamit Verma wrote:
Is there a technical reason for One Distro having better hardware compatibility than other? Given that most drivers are Open Source, should be easy to build drivers into distro if it is already available for Linux.
Yes, there is a technical reason. Some distros ship drivers which are not accepted upstream[1], while others don't. The ones who do will have varying levels of h/w support because eventually these drivers start breaking since nobody in upstream is looking at them and the maintainers cannot keep up with the pace of upstream changes to update their drivers. So, something that might have worked well in the 'horny horse' release of that distro fill start breaking by the time 'limp leopard' comes out.
Where as those that do work with upstream, do not have to worry, because more people contribute upstream fixes than to their distro.
cheers, - steve
[1] because, they ... a. could contain binary blobs b. are too unstable c. are in very early stages of development d. are provided by a vendor who does not push stuff upstream because they only release it for certain versions of the kernel e. do not have an active maintainer f. are maintained by developers who work for the distro vendor and who are too lazy to contribute back to upstream
On Friday 30 July 2010 12:45 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
I bought a netbook with Suse for my daughter - gave it to her and said probably sound, movies, wireless and tata indicom wont work, if they don't give it to the lab for the geeks to tweak - but everything worked out of the box.
Hardware compatibility issues are generally kernel version based. I have Fedora 12 in my machine and it has display hanging issues too. Those who are given Ubuntu should be given a fully setup system instead of making them 'do-it-yourself'. Ubuntu's biggest advantage is its Live + Install CD.
On Thursday 29 July 2010 11:51 PM, jtd wrote:
I am sure the value of his data is zero.
Overall your points are valid but value of data will not only decide the OS platform but also the backup policy of that place. I have seen linux users who did not backup their data and were clutching their forehead when the hard disk suddenly gave up. Doze users too have important data and good users will back it up as a policy.
On Friday, July 30, 2010 08:22:43 pm Rony wrote:
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On Friday 30 July 2010 20:22:43 Rony wrote:
On Thursday 29 July 2010 11:51 PM, jtd wrote:
I am sure the value of his data is zero.
Overall your points are valid but value of data will not only decide the OS platform but also the backup policy of that place. I have seen linux users who did not backup their data and were clutching their forehead when the hard disk suddenly gave up. Doze users too have important data and good users will back it up as a policy.
The point i am making is that if users do not value their data sufficiently, they will not make the effort to switch. Even if an app is not avaiable in linux (or the users for whatever reason wants to use doze, they will spend on securing data. In cases where users "cant afford" there is nothing one can do.
Cars with takla tyres, mobikes used to ferry bulky goods, worn out brake liners etc. etc. can be clubbed with drunken driving and other rash behaviour and there is nothing you and i can do. Perhaps when rash computing endangers lives, "drunken driving" legislation will be passed.
Regarding data policies (which wasn't my point), most users are lazy (including me). But with linux you are not burdened due to this. There are ample automated backup solutions, with the simplest being a cron and cp.
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Regards,
Rony.
On Saturday, July 31, 2010 11:56:46 am jtd wrote:
Regarding data policies (which wasn't my point), most users are lazy (including me). But with linux you are not burdened due to this. There are ample automated backup solutions, with the simplest being a cron and cp.
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Regards,
Rony.
-- Rgds JTD -- http://mm.glug-bom.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
please help fight global warming
Regarding data policies (which wasn't my point), most users are lazy (including me). But with linux you are not burdened due to this. There are ample automated backup solutions, with the simplest being a cron and cp.
And how is that different from schtasks and copy? All modern OS have adequate tools for off-site backups (E.g. Volume Shadow Copy + DFS). And with Cygwin, almost all GNU tools run on windows platform as well.
I use Veritas Netbackup and most backup vendors have tools for Unix/Windows/Mac OSX.
On Saturday 31 July 2010 18:03:25 Shamit Verma wrote:
Regarding data policies (which wasn't my point), most users are lazy (including me). But with linux you are not burdened due to this. There are ample automated backup solutions, with the simplest being a cron and cp.
And how is that different from schtasks and copy?
As a user you get that (and plenty more) at zero cost. As a provider I get that (and plenty more) at zero cost. So I earn more after charging less.
All modern OS have adequate tools for off-site backups (E.g. Volume Shadow Copy + DFS).
Volume Shadow Copy does a disk copy, which means it is susceptible to a FS change and only limited compatability exists between ntfs versions AND between os versions. Also incremental restore is available only in the high priced versions of the os. DFS too afaik is available only in the "enterprise" edition, which is an acronym for per cpu / per user loot.
And with Cygwin, almost all GNU tools run on windows platform as well.
An already overburdened OS now requires yet another layer of somebody else's stuff. Better option: chuck the crap and use GNU tools natively.
I use Veritas Netbackup and most backup vendors have tools for Unix/Windows/Mac OSX.
How much does it cost?.
On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 11:56 AM, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
Regarding data policies (which wasn't my point), most users are lazy (including me). But with linux you are not burdened due to this. There are ample automated backup solutions, with the simplest being a cron and cp.
Scheduled task and xcopy in doze.
On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 7:03 PM, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
On Saturday 31 July 2010 18:03:25 Shamit Verma wrote:
I use Veritas Netbackup and most backup vendors have tools for Unix/Windows/Mac OSX.
How much does it cost?.
Besides the cost, my experience with the above for 1-2 lic. on Linux -- no interest from the vendor side.
I wrote my own scripts with good old tar as my back end :) The scripts get the job done.
-- Arun Khan
On Sunday, August 01, 2010 01:52:28 am Rony Bill wrote:
As a proper list etiquette... Please trim your replies. Post your replies below the relevant original text, leaving a line space. Do not re-use old messages to write new ones.
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Arun Khan wrote:
I use Veritas Netbackup and most backup vendors have tools for Unix/Windows/Mac OSX.
How much does it cost?.
Besides the cost, my experience with the above for 1-2 lic. on Linux -- no interest from the vendor side.
I wrote my own scripts with good old tar as my back end :) The scripts get the job done.
Have you looked at BackupPC - http://backuppc.sourceforge.net/ or Bacula - http://www.bacula.org/en/?page=home or Amanda http://amanda.org/ ?
-- Arun Khan
With regards,
On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Dinesh Shah dineshah@gmail.com wrote:
Have you looked at BackupPC - http://backuppc.sourceforge.net/ or Bacula - http://www.bacula.org/en/?page=home or Amanda http://amanda.org/ ?
Yes, and IMO the setup effort was not worth the time spent to read up about the software, configure and test.
My setup was LTO3 (8GB compressed) unit attached directly to the secondary storage from which it was supposed to archive on tape.
-- Arun Khan
I use Veritas Netbackup and most backup vendors have tools for Unix/Windows/Mac OSX.
How much does it cost?.
Besides the cost, my experience with the above for 1-2 lic. on Linux -- no interest from the vendor side.
I wrote my own scripts with good old tar as my back end :) The scripts get the job done.
This solution (simple scripts + scheduling) works quite well for a lot a of situations.
Netbackup etc are useful mostly for enterprise. (E.g. automatic off-site backups and management of encryption keys for snapshots on disk as well as tape).
For personal or small business use, Amazon S3 is a useful as well. I am in US for few months and all my data is accessible here since it was backed up on S3. There are lots of tools for Linux, Windows and Even mobile that can sync a filesystem with S3 buckets. And it has an open API too.
-Shamit http://shamit.in
On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 8:53 AM, Shamit Verma subs.linux.mum@vshamit.com wrote:
For personal or small business use, Amazon S3 is a useful as well. I am in US for few months and all my data is accessible here since it was backed up on S3. There are lots of tools for Linux, Windows and Even mobile that can sync a filesystem with S3 buckets. And it has an open API too.
This may be a viable solution for small data sets. Besides, 'Net connectivity speeds is also a factor.
Can you give a ball park idea of how much data you are backing up in the cloud?
-- Arun Khan
For personal or small business use, Amazon S3 is a useful as well. I am
in
US for few months and all my data is accessible here since it was backed
up
on S3. There are lots of tools for Linux, Windows and Even mobile that
can
sync a filesystem with S3 buckets. And it has an open API too.
This may be a viable solution for small data sets. Besides, 'Net connectivity speeds is also a factor.
Can you give a ball park idea of how much data you are backing up in the cloud?
Data is not large, its around 20 GB. Mostly photos/videos so cant compress it. Net connectivity is definitely as issue. In Mumbai it takes 4 - 5 days to sync 4 GB worth of Pics/Videos once I empty Memory card form camera to PC. Have scheduled sync to run only in time window of 12 AM to 6 AM.
It costs 200 - 400 per month. That includes hours of VMs on EC2 that I create to try out that things that require 3 - 4 GB download or higher.
-Shamit http://shamit.in/dpal
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