Fsf-friends November 2002

fsf-friends@gnu.org.in

43 participants
108 discussions

by Manjush G.Menon

Original Message ----- From: "IT@School" <itschool(a)asianetindia.com> To: <manjushmenon(a)hotmail.com> Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 5:08 PM Subject: Reply > Mr.Manjush G. Menon > We are not giving to depend totally on Ms. Products. Rather MS > Office is taught along with open office and Windows along with Linux > from this year. Arranging the resource persons for training an open > software, making available the software, the maintenance of a help desk > etc. are logistical issues which could not be immediately undertaken. > We plan switch out to open software within three years. > Executive Director > ---- Original Message ----- From: Manjush G. Menon To: itschool(a)asianetindia.com Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 5:46 PM Subject: Respected sir, From Manjush G. Menon, Sr.Programmer, Sofker Solutions Pvt Ltd, Kochi-18. To The Executive Director, 'IT @ SCHOOL' Project, SCERT Buildings, Poojapura, Thiruvananthapuram-12. Respected sir, SUB: In protest against the inclusion of products from multinational companies in the syllabus of 'IT @ SCHOOL' It's a very dissappointing fact that when the whole world is moving towards Free software, we at kerala are going behind a major MNC - Microsoft. I hereby register my protest in such an act from 'IT @ SCHOOL' Project team. Breaking of prototypes will definetly help us in finding economical and high quality products for our future generation. For students and programmers, the GNU Linux contains 'GNU Compiler Collections' which includes C, C++, FORTRAN, PERL, TCL etc. Also, for DTP and other publishing purposes, it includes GNU Office utilities like Abi-Word, gedit, and other worksheet utilities, all these with a nominal cost of Rs 700-800/-. The software as it is, is free and the cost is accounted towards the media (CD + Documentation) included. By this letter, I urge you to take this matter seriously and suggest necessary modifications in the action plan of 'IT @ SCHOOL' project. Wishing you all the best and wishing all 'Students @ SCHOOL' a bright future, Thanking you, Yours faithfully Manjush G. Menon. ______________________________________________________ Check out all the latest outrageous email attachments on the Outrageous Email Chart! - http://viral.lycos.co.uk

17 years, 8 months

PERUVIAN EFFORT COULD BAN MICROSOFT ON GOV. COMPUTERS (fwd)

by Frederick Noronha

Thanks to George Lessard for posting this across. FN ---------- Forwarded message ---------- PERUVIAN EFFORT COULD BAN MICROSOFT ON GOV. COMPUTERS Peruvian Congressman Edgar Villanueva is pushing legislation to obligate all public institutions to convert exclusively to open-source software. Open-source programs, embodied by the Linux operating system, have underlying code available to anyone who wants to modify or customize it. Such software, in unadorned form, can be downloaded from the Internet for free. Villanueva hopes his measure triggers activity in Peru's software industry by freeing programmers from the constraints of working with coding controlled by a few large companies. Open-source could take the expense out of software upgrades; which is important for a country like Peru that owes about $30 million in overdue software license fees. [SOURCE: San Jose Mercury, AUTHOR: Associated Press] (http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/news/3531007.htm)

18 years, 8 months

Three views on Free/Libre and Open Source Software... (long)

by Frederick Noronha

---------- Forwarded message ---------- http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?artid=2… The Economic Times Should governments use open source software? TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 26, 2002 01:28:06 The Linux versus Microsoft tussle over open-source software as against proprietary software has all the romance of a David versus Goliath battle. What is the reality? We present three views, two from industry and one from governmen. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Javed Tapia, Director, Red Hat, India ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Linux is an operating system, much like Microsoft Windows, Solaris or MacOS X. What sets Linux apart from most other operating systems is that it is an open source. This is generally taken to mean simply 'free'. What this actually is much more than that and in practice means that the source code is available to all for modification, customisation, and improvement. The use of Linux lowers the total cost of IT very significantly. The first advantage is the upfront price. A single fully supported package would cost significantly less than any proprietary alternatives. Secondly, since Linux is under a general public licensing model it can be installed on many computers without any restrictions. Thirdly, a typical Linux CD contains not only the operating system, but a large variety of other software products that can be installed if needed. Thus, without buying or downloading anything else, the user already has simple office suite, all the software needed for internet access, advanced networking capabilities, and so on. Fourthly, a major argument against the implementation of proprietary software in the government sector is the dependency on proprietary software vendors. Even in an open tender acquisition system, this requirement for compatibility with proprietary standards makes the system biased towards specific software vendors, perpetuating a dependency. This dependency is perpetuated due to two reasons: first of all software owners have to upgrade the software, even if there is no internal reason or interest in doing so. Otherwise they risk facing a situation where their programs are not capable of process documents and files, created by newer versions of the same product. The second coercion to upgrade evolving from this dependency situation is the ending of support for 'older' versions. This situation thus has major consequences for the cost side of IT management. Through the passage of time, the proprietary software vendor does not have to fear competition, since the client has to take its product irrespective of any choice. A typical, at least de facto, monopoly evolves in which the vendor dictates prices, conditions and quality. Open source provide liberation from such a situation as it offers no proprietary lock-in to any one vendor. Fifthly, apart from the cost advantage, in a large installation such as government ministry or department, administration of all the computers in all locations can be a logistical nightmare. Linux provides many features that can make this administration much easier. Linux is a multi-user system which means that each file belongs to a specific user, and one user cannot alter another user's files unless latter assigns appropriate permissions. Linux has a number of features that make its use on a network much more secure. Examples include a built-in firewall, the ability to allow certain services (e.g., file sharing) to be accessible only from within an internal network, software to detect attempted hacking, encrypted protocols for remote administration, file transfer, and so on. An important selling point of Linux is its stability. Barring hardware malfunctions, Linux is highly stable. Operating system crashes are almost unheard of. Proof of this being that today large enterprises and government bodies are adopting Linux in a big way for their mission-critical applications. For instance NASA and the ESA are using a customised version of Linux in a number of highly-sensitive space missions. While it is possible to download Linux for free, make copies of the downloads and distribute them freely, this option includes no support from the supplier, although one can always make use of peer support groups and other self-proclaimed gurus. To benefit from professional telephone or email support from the suppliers like Red Hat, one has to buy the operating system. This option normally includes more software than the free version, printed manuals, a number of days of support and software provided ready on CDs. Finally, the situation after the migration to open source software will lead to lower life-cycle costs. Service, support and maintenance can now be contracted out to a range of suppliers, being placed in the competitive environment of a functioning marketplace. The money saved in the service-oriented model of open source is then also normally spent within the economy or the governmental organisation. Unlike proprietary software situations where they are paid out as pure licence fees to large monopolistic multinational organisations. The cost of the service oriented model of open source has a positive fallout on the domestic economy through the generation of local employment, spurring of local investment and ensuring local technological upgradation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sanjiv Mathur, Head of marketing, Microsoft, India: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To begin with let me first clarify the term 'Free software.' The word 'free' here specifically means what you can do with the software, not the price. While you can obtain the basic software free, it is distributed and sold for a charge by companies who develop applications on it. As a result, the pricing structure becomes very similar to commercial software as companies promoting free software charge for initial installation, support, training, etc. Though the price debate is still under the microscope, the total cost of ownership underscores the fact that when you invest in software or hardware, there are a number of hidden costs that come into being. In the commercial and free software debate this element becomes of critical value as studies reveal that TCO of free software is quite high. Microsoft believes in the overall benefit of the software ecosystem -- one that recognises the roles of government, education, private industry and end users to develop a healthy interaction that advances the public knowledge base, protects IP rights, furthers innovation and spurs further growth. Our primary concern is not with open source as a whole, but with the GNU General Public License. Its role in discouraging the development of commercial software threatens to undermine intellectual property, stifle innovation, and limit entrepreneurism while reducing choice in the market. The best catalyst for software innovation and industry growth is the market place, supported by a strong regime for intellectual property protection. If an organisation is looking at moving over to free software, it is attracted by the short term benefits where the initial investment may be less than what they would need to do for commercial software. However taking into account the longer term implications; they definitely need to think of the overall value proposition that a platform offers vis-a-vis the other. They need to evaluate the basic acquisitions costs of free software vis-a-vis the long term costs which include integration costs between various components, backwards compatibility costs, collaboration with the partner community, trained manpower. These costs are absorbed by the commercial software companies and the value is passed onto the customer. Moreover, once free software is installed, it also becomes a source of elevated security vulnerabilities for IT buyers, because the source code is freely available: no one person is responsible for it. Microsoft's investments in e-governance in particular go back several years, and we were amongst the first IT companies to strike alliances with the central and state governments. Today, we have MoUs with 18 state governments in India, and are doing pioneering work in developing e-governance applications and solutions. Some results of our successful partnerships include the Gyaandoot Project with the government of Madhya Pradesh, the Bhoomi Project in Karnataka and work with the Treasuries department of the government of Haryana. We at Microsoft believe that a healthy software ecosystem is one built on choice with government agencies and all entities having the ability to select which software model fits their needs. We believe that an open market approach where software products compete on their technical merits is the best model for the long-term growth of the software industries in all countries. Software companies make heavy investments in R&D and if they do not have a chance to be compensated for their R&D spends, the cycle of sustainable innovation is disrupted and the health of the local software industry is jeopardised. As a result, it would discourage any organisation to take on the effort of expensive R&D to improve upon the same as they would not see any benefit in doing so. This would lead to a disruption in the software ecosystem. Both open source and commercial software are integral parts of the broader software ecosystem, and the two models have co-existed within the software ecosystem for decades. We are not averse to sharing our source codes with our customers if it will be beneficial for them, however we are concerned about the potential implications of GPL. The problems created by GPL result from the onerous licensing terms that it contains. The GPL requires that all third parties must have the right to make unlimited copies of GPL-licensed software and distribute them free of charge. Obviously, it is extremely difficult for a software company to generate revenue by distributing a program if everyone has the right to distribute unlimited copies of the same program free of charge. We believe that software has commercial value and attempts to render software free will ultimately undermine the software industry, causing less R&D to go into software development and ultimately less innovation for consumers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- R Gopalakrishnan, Secretary to chief minister, Madhya Pradesh: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- A more appropriate query would be why haven't governments done it earlier. The implications for public policy are fairly obvious. First is cost. Commercial software costs money and open source software is free. Even after accounting for training and installation costs of open source software, it may still cost anywhere between one-half to one-tenth of commercial software depending on the application. The ocean of unnecessary features in commercial software makes hardware expensive and obsolescence cycles shorter. Getting locked into all future upgrades again becomes serious issue. By going along the open source path, a government will spend less money and receive the same or better features, functionality and performance. Even the money that they spend will not be invested in product prices, but in training and developing tens of thousands of their own people creating a competence that will become a long-term asset for the state and its people. The issue of cost is vitally tied to liberating India to become a land of one billion opportunities.Digital inclusion will become possible only with low-cost computers combined with open source software and broadband connectivity. Some experts feel that even at a conservative estimate, the hardware-software savings with an open source based thin client can be 75% or more as compared with MS Windows-office fat desktop. This is perhaps the reason why countries like China, Brazil, South Africa and Germany have chosen open source software and why it finds endorsement in major emerging markets. The good old standard operating procedure of bureaucracies, when confronted with the unknown, was to ask a question "what is happening in other places"? In this case we seemed to have missed that question. The issue of security is important for public policy. It is practically impossible to prove proprietary software is more secure than free software. Public systems will need to enshrine security and proprietary software that guards source codes inherently have a problem with governments that would not want their core systems to be dominated by external monopolies. We must admit that e-governance, so far in India, has been a play in the margins, the eulogising of the cow that got sold on the internet. As we begin to put more citizen-services in the public domain the issue of costs and security will need to be squarely faced. In the area of education, governments will need to enlist the computer as a tool to push the frontiers of learning to improve quality. We need to transit from the current obsession with mere computer literacy to generate cyber coolies for the market but see the potential of the medium to stimulate the inherent creativity of the human mind. Open source software has been the preferred medium in learning institutions because here students can investigate the medium they work with and construct knowledge. What can be the down-side of a policy shift to open source software in India? The standard fear is about who will provide maintenance and support. This fear is negated by the fact that there is a blooming support service industry which is set to grow as policy gets proactive on open source software. Why has not there been a national policy as yet on promotion of open source software? Part of the reason is the policy leadership of southern Indian states where the issues were focused more on IT production than on IT use. Another part of the reason is fragmented bureaucratic turf. Given the poor penetration of information technology in India, there is now a growing realisation that India will need to move to a more comprehensive "ICT Policy for Development". While formulating such a policy through a multi-sectoral forum that brings together the ministries of planning, finance, HRD, CIT, etc., the ministry of science and technology may need to comprehensively address the question as to whether the "technology framework of a government" can be based on proprietary standards. That will hopefully settle this issue. Public policy cannot be authored on the basis of freebies or initial sweeteners in terms of discounts offered by monopolies. It has to be informed by a long-term vision. The decision of the government of Madhya Pradesh to prefer open source software of Linux for its computer-enabled education programme was, like the chief minister stated, a matter of "choosing between a free software and a monopoly". It ought not to be seen as a vote against any particular company. Inherent in the debate on open source software are issues of freedom, monopoly and choice of the buyer. The internet itself is premised on freedom, sharing and decentered activity. And freedom, is as of yet, one of the best ideas that humankind has produced. (ENDS)

20 years, 5 months

NEWS-DELHI: Fashion institute raided for using pirated software

by Frederick Noronha

Likening them to 'pirates', eh! Fashion institute raided for using pirated software >From Indo-Asian News Service New Delhi, Nov 30 (IANS) Delhi Police raided the privately run National Institute of Fashion Design (NIFD) for allegedly using pirated software. The raid was conducted Friday at two premises of the institute in West Patel Nagar in west Delhi and Pitampura in northwest Delhi. "A representative of the Adobe Company informed us that the institute was using pirated software to teach its students," a police officer said Saturday. Seven computers were seized after the raid. They were found to be running pirated versions of Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Imageready and Adobe Photodeluxe. "They had been using the pirated software for quite some time. We have charged them with copyright violations," the officer said. --Indo-Asian News Service

20 years, 5 months

Invitation to become a FSF Member ...

by Tarun Gaur

Hi Ajith, It is really wonderful to know of your work. I think you can lead the way and help us get some insights into making linux easier and easier. I am really excited on knowing what you have done ? Maybe we can associate and i can promote your work in Delhi, Bangalore and pune. I operate out of these three places. Can you give me any URL on any website where i could read about your work. If i recollect well, you said that you are not a member of FSF forums. We will be honoured to have your views on a regular basis for the entire FSF community. Infact your work can lead the way. i am working on some enterprise software where you could help me configure linux for the specific purposes. It'll be a great help from your side. With regards, tarun gaur _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

20 years, 5 months

(no subject)

by Tarun Gaur

Hi Friends, I feel great that i have been able to induce the need for Constructive Criticism into our forum. This sets our focus on identifying the problems and then working on them for betterment of the brave GNU world. Friends, i will quote a small example on how keeping a close tab on competetion can help. The place where I am working, we are developing a complete replacement of .NET on GNU/Linux. Now I and some of my collegues have been keeping a close tab on what Microsoft has been doing and where they stand today. Now we tried to pick up information from all the possible sources, we could lay hands on plus our exposure to MS technologies over the years helped. (I was using their products since the Windows 16 bit days), so its like seen it all. And then i have a habit of closely watching all the speeches, articles and books of guys like Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer. I also keep a tab on the research projets at Microsoft, IBM, HP, Intel, Major US Universities. Now we started our research ... and came to some very wonderful conclusions. - If Windows 95 can be inspired from Mac 89, why cant our interfaces make use of all the research done by Microsoft on interfaces. This is like giving them their cake on their face. - Microsoft's strength has been "ease of use" of their software, with 2000 servers and .NET they are coming into enterprise world. .NET is not that easy after all, though not that difficult too. - Microsoft cant afford to do away with Windows OS but still Bill Gates picks up 21% stake in COREL LINUX. corel is working on desktop linux. - Our research said ... If you want to be a serious contender in the global market with .NET, ... keep it easy. And I wrote a POEM ... I call it.. "MAKE IT EASY YAAR" " BE AWARE OF THE NEED, ISOLATE THE PROBLEM, DONT REINVENT THE WHEEL, AND THEN SEE, WHAT YOU FEEL, MAKE IT EASY FOR YOUR BOSS, YOU WILL NEVER GET A TOSS, MAKE IT EASY FOR THE DEVELOPER, YOU ARE SURE TO EARN A FOLLOWER, MAKE IT EASY FOR THE USER, YOU WILL NEVER BE A LOSER. NOW, WORK IN YOUR MILL, AND GO IN FOR THE KILL, BE SURE, IT WILL TAKE SOME TIME, BEFORE THEIR WOUNDS HEAL, AND THEN SEE, WHAT THEY FEEL. Now, the point is awareness is the key to knowledge and knowledge is a key to wisdom. AND FOR US WISDOM SAYS ... Keep it easy. Now, praising others for good work is not bad after all. We can praise the Work of some good companies on our forum and learn from it to improve our software. Leave you with this thought, Free software for the brave GNU world. Regards, Tarun Gaur _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

20 years, 5 months

Microsoft's shared source... a query

by Frederick Noronha

See the programme for Linux Bangalore 2002 (Dec 3-5) at http://linux-bangalore.org/2002/schedules Interestingly, Microsoft's Tarun Anand also speaks on 'Shared Source: Implementation of .NET'. Just a query, how does this concept of 'shared source' compare with GNU/Free Software or Open Source licences? FN

20 years, 5 months

Good s/w promotes ideology on its own ... we can help for sure

by Tarun Gaur

Hi Ajith, By the likes of it, it seems that you are quite senior to me when it comes to the industry. As far as linux goes, i think i am my self a sort of vetran. Now, I totally agree with you that criticism alone cannot improve things. But friend , the ideology is based on how well it can be accepted by the masses and anything inferior is not generally accepted ( though we may quote exceptions, but remember exceptions are always in minority ). Now "inferior" is a relative term. Something that may not be inferior at BARC (for scientists) may be inferior for the masses (because the needs are different). I have never doubted our ability to write wonderful software. But we have ignored the "interfaces" for the masses for too long. I am sure Richard Stallman agrees. Now, you have yourself mentioned that FSF is currently worrying about helping school children take on GNU/Linux. Now, lets just for a moment pause and ponder over the needs of these kids and put our software on test. Now lets forget the problems, lets try and find answers. As far as the ideology goes, it is spreading and will spread even more the moment we start touching the masses. Projects like Gnome and KDE have taken giant strides in the direction. But there is scope of improvement. Now, to put this point thru i need help of people like you to endorse the fact that we need to improve the interfaces, we need to consolidate the services on GNU/Linux, we need to simplify the structure etc and believe me, we are all set to push Microsoft software to a corner if not oblivion. Look at the current scenario, - microsoft is in a transition phase - We are real good at Server side solutions - They are consolidating their servers - We are working on GUIs Now, we know it is peanuts for people to write Desktop versions of Operating System who are good at Enterprise Servers. Desktops touch the masses and this world belongs to masses as masses are in MAJORITY. Now friends, Let us all contribute. Let us do our bits and be sure we will reign supreme. A Dream of an ideology reigning supreme is not that bad after all. Free software for the brave GNU World. With regards, Tarun Gaur >From: Ajith Kumar <ajith(a)nsc.ernet.in> >To: Tarun Gaur <gaur_tarun(a)hotmail.com> >Subject: Re: [Fsf-friends] Read Richard Stallman's mail >Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 14:33:13 +0530 > >Tarun Gaur wrote: > > > Hi Mr. Ajith > > > > I am shocked at the way you have interpreted my quest for ever >improvement. > > According to your interpretation, all the CRITICS carry some kind of > > infiriority complex ? Brother, i am just asking all my friends to >improve. I > > will quote Richard Stallman's mail posted on fsf-friends, where he says >that > > common user has to be taken serious care of. > >First of all i am not an FSF member. I have used GNU/Linux for >applications >like >particle accelerator control and physics experiments. Nuclear Science >Centre's >control system runs on a network of 6 machines , 24 hours 365 days and I am >yet >to see a >'hanging' OS , running redhat 5.2 distro. I developed it 5 years ago. >We have a Data Acquisition System that is fastest among the other labs >like >BARC etc., >done in Linux. Almost the entire organization uses it for communication, >office work etc. > >I know that it is not perfect. I myself face a lot of problems when try to >convince people to >use it. I had a talk with RMS when he visited NSC in March. He asked me to >give more stress >on spreading the ideology than trying to get more people just using Free >Software. >I spend a lot of time and energy to help schools to use GNU/Linux. >The point is we should not project weaknesses alone, the stregths also >should >be projected at the >same time. > >As far as I know FSF is mainly worrying about how to get the schools in >Kerala to use Free Software. > >with regards > >Ajith _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

20 years, 5 months

Re: [bytesforall_readers] INDIA: Memo from the Free Software Users' Group, Kochi.... (fwd)

by Frederick Noronha

This came up on BytesForAll mailing list. Sending it to FSF too. FN ---------- Forwarded message ---------- As one who was involved in the initial stages of IT@SCHOOL project (but by no means connected to the recent developments) I found it interesting to read the lengthy Memorandum and is keen to know the response from the government side on the issues raised. In this context I would request all the other Free Software Users' Groups in the state to work closely on the issue. With my little experience with the government I think the government would be looking for practicable and implementable ideas.Therefore the suggestions should also conform to that .In any case we need to pursue this.It would be fruitful to hold a meeting of people who are interested , for charting out workable strategies. I can take an initiative in that. Looking forward to response from other user groups MOHAN DAS

20 years, 6 months

Read Richard Stallman's mail

by Tarun Gaur

Hi Mr. Ajith I am shocked at the way you have interpreted my quest for ever improvement. According to your interpretation, all the CRITICS carry some kind of infiriority complex ? Brother, i am just asking all my friends to improve. I will quote Richard Stallman's mail posted on fsf-friends, where he says that common user has to be taken serious care of. I have failed to understand why cant we take criticism in the right spirit. Are we so closed in our thinking? Friend i am not bothered about what has been achieved by FSF. I am really curious on how we can improve more. I am very proud of what has been achieved by FSF and am equally aware of where we are lacking. Now please dont tell be that we are perfect. THERE IS A LOT OF SCOPE OF IMPROVEMENT and I am doing my bit for it in 3 projects at GNU. My criticism has been taken very well at the global forums. Our Indian fourm is the only place where some people are taking a negative view of it. Brothers please cool down, this is a quest for improvement not any kind of infiriority complex. i would be really proud to have someone from FSF-India contribute a mainstream or futuristic project and make it to GNU/Linux OS. Be sure i am working on some projects myself. At the end, It is really easy to judge and comment, but really difficult to contribute. lets worry about contributing. Be sure i am doing my bit. regards, Tarun Gaur >From: Ajith Kumar <ajith(a)nsc.ernet.in> >To: Tarun Gaur <gaur_tarun(a)hotmail.com> >Subject: Re: [Fsf-friends] (no subject) >Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:29:35 +0530 > >Tarun Gaur wrote: > > > Dear friend Suraj, > > > > We live in a world that moves at a very fast pace. In today's world, >people > > value quality over price in most of the situations. And yes cost of > > ownership does matter, but never at the price of quality. > > > > Now, we are evangalists supporting the same movement. A movement that >brings > > people and ideas togather to create free software. It intends to > > realize the vision of a genius called Richard Stallman. > > > > but friend, I have some questions for you. > > > > Do Richard Stallman and GNU ask us not to praise and be aware of what is > > happening in the properietary world ? > > > > Are we hampered by any force to write software as good as the >properietary > > world ? > >I think you have some inferiority complex about Free Software. There are >many >areas free software is better than >proprietary one. Just think about the recent virus attacks on NT servers >running IIS. >Apache fared better. > >we don't need to be that apologetic. Be proud of the good work you are >doing. >Even if you give the 'whole world' for >a single click some people will not be happy if there is not a LOGO of some >big >MNC. > >regards > >ajith _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

20 years, 6 months

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Fsf-friends November 2002