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Mentoring students !!
by Tarun Gaur 20 Dec '02

20 Dec '02

Hi Richard, The genius that started it all cant be left out. My apologies for calling it "open source". Let me correct it and call it 'free software movement" as i myself firmly believe in the ideology. Thanks again for correcting me. Now, on students, Richard i dont agree with your and Gopal's view that the mainstream students cant contribute and will not contribute. i agree your assumptions are based on your experience in US and are for sure backed by statistics, but with India it is a bit different. There is a massive educational setup that india can boast of in IT, especially when IT is generating such a huge revenues for a developing country, the country is for sure interested in upping the tempo in this promising field. The manpower is in abundance, making India a powerhouse for future global software development alongside US (No. of MNCs setting up dev. centres in India is a witness). This manpower is of two kinds, one in the industry and one waiting to be churned out. My experience with the students says; if this community is guided and pushed a bit, they come out with amazing results. The environment is very conducive for FSF, as gopal said, universities dont claim ownership of the work ... Its good, it can be Free. Universities in India will be more than willing to associate with FSF for the sake of students. FSF should be willing too. If it does not give us free software, atleast it will push the ideology to a larger base of future professionals. But with my experience with students in india; i firmly believe they can contribute a lot. Believe me every single student in IT in india has the desire to catch up with the global level. Stakes are higher here for a student than his counterpart in US, my indian friends can understand. FSF on one hand is a window for them to peep into good quality s/w and on the other hand become a forum for this community to channalize their innovations. the students are not contributing today on their own because i am sure the majority (in india) is oblivious of our existance or the kind of work being done at FSF or the ideology. We need to push the ideology and i am sure they will push free software back at us. [to Gopal] Gopal, if you and me can do it at our individual levels, then lets not leave this community out. If we are able to get 50 wonderful developers per year from this massive community making free software, i dont see it as a failure; alongwith we will sure get a big community supporting the ideology. [to Richard] Richard, i can vouch for Indian students, they can give you amazing results. Believe me they can rock the base of all the business initiatives and tactics being employed by the properietry world. lets make them understand what free s/w is; the way you have done it for us. leave you with this thought, regards, tarun gaur >From: Richard Stallman <rms(a)gnu.org> >Reply-To: rms(a)gnu.org >To: gaur_tarun(a)hotmail.com >CC: fsf-friends(a)mm.gnu.org.in, abhas(a)deeproot.co.in >Subject: Re: Mentoring students !! >Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:51:41 -0500 > > I have lately been discussing the fact with RMS that how majority of >the > students are being left out of open source initiative (FSF/GNU). > >Our discussion was about the free software movement, not "open >source". "Open source" is the slogan of another movement in our >community, one that rejects our idealism. The Open Source Initiative >makes me feel "left out", and I am glad if some others feel the same >way. > >When people with those views contribute to free software, we recognize >their contribution to the community. But we in the FSF never work on >"open source" activities. We want it to be clear that what we are >doing is "free software". > > I have myself been interacting with students on various projects and >have > been amazed at their ability to push things through. > >This is very different from my experience in the US and Europe. >Occasionally a student who becomes a free software developer and does >important work acting on his own, but students *in the academic >context* hardly ever contribute anything that works. > >Have you found it is different in India? I would be glad to learn >that Indian students are more effective. If so, it could be worth >some effort to try to reach out to them. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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Fwd: [update@publiclibraryofscience.org: News from Public Library of Science]
by NAGARJUNA G. 20 Dec '02

20 Dec '02

Public Library movement is picking up. This I think is the way GNU ideals are percolating to other domains of life. Way to go! Nagarjuna

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[Commons-Law] IPL Workshop Schedule (fwd)
by Frederick Noronha 19 Dec '02

19 Dec '02

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[bytesforall_readers] FW: [GKD] Microsoft to Share Windows Code with India (fwd)
by Frederick Noronha 19 Dec '02

19 Dec '02

Posted by Ashish Kotamkar, initially on the BytesForAll list. FN ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Interesting observation about Microsoft "sharing" its source code by Philippe Bechamp on the GKD list. Ashish -----Original Message----- From: Philippe Bechamp Dear GKD Members, The offer by Microsoft to share it's source code with the Indian government may seem like a surprise and a positive move but it is actually nothing new. Microsoft, in response to the Open Source phenomenon, has been running this "Shared Source Initiative" for quite some time. This policy in no way changes anything fundamental in Microsoft's way of doing business. It merely gives you a one year license to look at Microsoft's code, without changing, modifying, redistributing their source <http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/sharedsource/government.asp>. This part of Microsoft's long standing campaign and strategy against Open Source, as initially defined by "The Halloween Documents" (for which a search will yield many results). India could have asked for this program a long time ago. This is just an opportunistic announcement, part of a larger strategy. Microsoft seems very afraid of Open Source. It is not responding to market or government needs, but to a market threat, and responding very weakly. Microsoft's shared source program in no way competes with Open Source licensing. With Open source, you have source code, with Microsoft you might, if you are big and rich enough. But the similarity stops there. With OSS, you can modify the source code and possibly get integrated back in the main code base. MS prohibits this, even just modifying for internal use. With OSS, there are no licensing costs, with MS, very large ones on restrictive terms. With OSS, you can resell what you modify, give it away even pay people to use it. With MS, none of this. The list goes on. Microsoft's policies are about restricting your freedom. OSS is about expanding it. Please expect to see more of these types of 'news' in the future. It is the second time in a month that I run across misleading Microsoft informations on my development related lists. The largest software company in the world is on the path to diminish OSS as much as possible. It can wine and dine people, it can spew press releases but, fundamentally, nothing has changed. Best regards, Philippe -- Philippe Bechamp bechamp(a)web.net Margaret Grieco <Msgrieco(a)aol.com> wrote: > That microsoft is willing to share source code with India governmental > agencies as a measure to stem the development of Linux competition is > important news. > > Microsoft has understood the importance of policy and governance markets > as opposed to private consumer and commercial markets ahead of the > development institutions. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get 128 Bit SSL Encryption! http://us.click.yahoo.com/CBxunD/vN2EAA/xGHJAA/C7EolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: bytesforall_readers-unsubscribe(a)yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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Forwarded from the Hyderabad mailing list...
by Frederick Noronha 18 Dec '02

18 Dec '02

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Linux-Announce Digest #262, Volume #4 Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:13:02 EST Contents: NEWS: Book release in Hyderabad (forwarded) (Frederick Noronha) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frederick Noronha <fred(a)bytesforall.org> Subject: NEWS: Book release in Hyderabad (forwarded) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:25:49 CST ________________________________________________________________________ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 17:10:24 +0530 From: "Dr. Atul Negi" <atulcs(a)uohyd.ernet.in> Subject: Towards Free Software A book Release No Sir, No Monopoly Free Software: A Perspective ---Richard Stallman A book Published by Prajasakti Book House Date Friday 20-12-02 Venue Sundarayya Vignana Kendram Bagh Lingam Palli Hyderabad. Time 6-00pm Presided by Ashhar Fahran IETF Free Software Developer. Inauguration by J A Chowdary President Managing Director for Indian Operations Portal Player Guest Speaker Dr. Atul Negi, Student Activities Chair IEEE Hyderabad Section Reader, ( Associate Professor) Dept of Computer and Information Sciences University of Hyderabad This book is a collection of writings by Richard Stallman, espousing the cause of free software, its philosophy and perspective. The book explains the basic ideas of Free Software Movement, and the GNU operating system that was developed so that people could use computers in freedom. The struggle against imperialist globalization is waged on several fronts. As the present age is called computer age this struggle for free software assumes all the more significance. Not only the people in general but even many computer professionals themselves may not be aware of the strangle hold of Multinationals, Microsoft in particular. Stallman in these articles lucidly explains the paradoxes and perplexities of the issue. While most of the software licenses take away the right to copy, study, distribute and modify the software. The software developed by the free software programmers is also distributed in the original 'source' form. That means, any programmer can study, enhance and change the software for their purpose without having to pay any royalty to anybody. A developing country like India needs to constantly strive for cost effective solutions. Richard Stallman is the founder of the GNU project, launched in 1984 to develop the free operating system GNU. He is the principle author of the GCC designed to support diverse architectures and multiple languages which now supports over 30 different architectures and 7 programming languages. Stallman also wrote the symbolic Debugger(GDB), GNU emacs, and various other GNU programs. ________________________________________________________________________ ########################################################################## # Send submissions for comp.os.linux.announce to: cola(a)stump.algebra.com # # PLEASE remember a short description of the software and the LOCATION. # # This group is archived at http://stump.algebra.com/~cola/ # ########################################################################## ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is: Internet: Linux-Announce-Request(a)NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU You can submit announcements to be moderated via: Internet: linux-announce(a)NEWS.ORNL.GOV Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites: ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux End of Linux-Announce Digest ******************************

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Mentoring students !!
by Tarun Gaur 18 Dec '02

18 Dec '02

Hi Friends, It is really exciting to know that someone is picking up the roots of not only linux but intelligence as well. I have lately been discussing the fact with RMS that how majority of the students are being left out of open source initiative (FSF/GNU). Abhas is very right when he says that students carry enormous potential when guided and manouvered in the right direction. The freshness of approach is the key to innovation and this coupled with experienced guidance takes the shape of a juggernaut. I have myself been interacting with students on various projects and have been amazed at their ability to push things through. I have found students of being very receptive on taking up challanges and abhas is again right when he says that sometime we have to co-op up with their state of stagnancy. But then most of the Genius are known lazy fellows. But believe me, when they are on a roll, thats when guys like bill and larry spend some sleepless nights, on knowing what these aliens are upto. In his recent visit to india, bill gates did mention "I SEE SOME INNOVATIVE PRODUCT COMPANIES COMING UP FROM INDIA" and believe me he understands the power of these small creatures (students) of our IT world, he knows there are lot of seeds being sown in garages all around the world. Indian garages have an edge. A large student base is ready to scratch their heads and another thing that Devang Mehta(late NASSCOM honcho) likes to identify with India - THE INDIAN JUGAAD is always handy. We need a unified effort to gather this scattered force and what could be a better forum than FSF/GNU. Make the Students follow the FSF Ideology and see the results: These creatures invade the industry every year with dreams and ambitions. They will eat up the properietry world. We need to make them believe that they are "THE ONE"; especially in India. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- leave you with this thought, Regards, tarun gaur _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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Replying to one of Orlando's queries...
by Frederick Noronha 18 Dec '02

18 Dec '02

On Sat, 14 Dec 2002, Orlando Fernandes wrote: > btw can anyone tell me how Richard make his money, did he always have it? > did he have to work for it? or did he get it fre 'cause he gave all his code > away for free? > Orlando This is from Sam Willians' book *Free as in Freedom*, the biography of RMS (aka Richard M. Stallman). Look at the amazing way in which sharing begets further sharing: "In 1990, the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation certified Stallman's genius status when it granted Stallman a MacArthur fellowship, thereby making him a recipient for the organisation's so-called "genuis grant". The grant, a $240,000 (sorry for getting this figure wrong earlier-FN) reward for launching the GNU Project and giving voice to the free software philosophy, relieved a number of short-term concerns. First and foremost, it gave Stallman, a non-salaried employee of the FSF who had been supporting himself through consulting contracts, the ability to devote more time to writing GNU code. "Ironically, the award also made it possible for Stallman to vote. Months before the award, a fire in Stallman's apartment house had consumed his few earthly possessions. By the time of the award, Stallman was listing himself a 'squatter' at 545 Technology Square. "[The registrar of voters] didn't want to accept that as my address," Stallman would later recall. "A newspaper article about the MacArthur grant said that and then they let me register." "Most important, the MacArthur money gave Stallman more freedom. Already dedicated to the issue of software freedom, Stallman chose to use the additional freedom to increase his travels in support of the GNU Project mission. "Interestingly, the ultimate success of the GNU Project and the free software movement in general would stem from one of these trips. In 1990, Stallman paid a visit to the Polytechnic University in Helsinki, Finland. Among the audience members was 21-year-old Linux Torvalds, future developer of the Linux kernel -- the free software kernel destined to fill the GNU Project's most sizeable gap." Read this book if you can. Ironically, it's freely copyable under the GNU Free Documentation License. Maybe our FSF-India friends could think of getting some publisher publishing a low-cost (or possibly updated) version of it for India. I know some young programmers who swear that their views on programming were drastically changed after reading this book. FN

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Microsoft to share Windows code with India
by Tarun Gaur 18 Dec '02

18 Dec '02

Hi Mr. Satish, You are very right when you say the recipe of coke cant do much on itself. But lets for a moment think on what the availability of recipe of coke can do when it is free to one and all. - Maybe someone would have innovated and creted a new recipe, that would have been better than coke. Then we could have drank the wonderful coke++ rather than coke. - maybe that coke++ would have costed a lot less. - maybe we could have made it at home ? - maybe we could have altered the taste to suit our tastebuds. - further, this new innovation would have been available to one and all, so no drinking (digital) divide. A flip side could be an uncontrollable mess. This is being taken care of. - Now regulating/benchmarking/standardizing/ the new inventions is exctly what GNU is doing. satish> what is important and critical is to understand how to satish> envision, architect,design, develop, test,...and implement satish> integrated systems in as much as is feasible with an satish> understanding both of the needs and the technology and in that satish> order. yes, you are right. We are catching up fast with the properietry world, and in some spheres we are infact better. More than half of the internet that supports us all is the result of this and similar visions and integrations. Mr. Satish, be sure in near future you will see a lot coming out of GNU and elswhere that will take care of your concerns. maybe your concern is not understood, correct me if i am wrong. You indend to say that open source is a minor piece of the puzzle. There are a lot more concerns to be handled alongwith. [ to other friends:] friends, Mr. Satish does not seem to be opposing OS idea or Freedom, maybe what he intends to say is Open source is there to stay, now we have it and more and more is available by the tick, we need to look at the concerns beyond open source (that i think we are now doing). He seems to say: for an organisation : An integrated free system is far more important than the source code of that system. (but having the source code is great anyways). [to Mr. Satish] Sir, open source is the key to freedom and innovation. We stand a better chance of achieving integrated systems that are the best when thousands of envanglists are working on your concerns and remember the OPEN RECIPE of coke triggered it all. In near future you wont have to shell out money cause of weird licensing schemes. MICROSOFT is pretending to share code. What and how much has become a well circulated joke. Mr. Bill gates must have or soon will realize that Indians carry far more commonsense than he thinks they do. They lined up to take money from him, not give it to him. what microsoft is undertaking is a well guided tactical move to undermine linux. Dont worry, commonsense will prevail. We know by now, how he thinks. Anyways, future will not be decided by Microsoft or GNU sharing codes. It will be decided by what kind of integrated systems come up at both the ends. leave you with this thought ... Regards, tarun gaur _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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Re: [Fsf-friends] Re: [bytesforall_readers] Microsoft to share Windows code withIndia
by V. Sasi Kumar 17 Dec '02

17 Dec '02

On Tue, 2002-12-17 at 01:03, satish jha wrote: > sunil: > > thanks much. went to the recommended site. i don't think you need ti oversimplify it. it is oversimplified in itself though it could do with a bit of editing. > > having seen it, read it i am persuaded that its propounders live in a world of their own and have a right to do so. Thanks. i believe that without intellectual property rights there may have been some ideas. innovation, technolgy development and progres would have taken another path altogether and it can be shown that at least in terms of economics as we know it, it would be a sub-optimal model compared to what we have known. You forget that a large part of development took place without what you call "intellectual property rights". Those who claim rights for "intellectual property" forget that they have made ample use of similar "intellectual property" that others could have laid claim to. Would they be willing to share their "property rights" with everyone who has contributed towards its generation, right from the people who invented the wheel? Remember, even Isaac Newton, one of the greatest scientists ever, said that "If I have seen further, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants". In India we have a model of knowledge that has been of tremendous value to humanity, which grew, and continues to grow, without the benefit of "intellectual property rights" - I refer to Ayurveda. But I tend to agree with you when you say that there may have been a different path of progress if "intellectual property rights" - that path would have led to a more equitable society, something that is much more valuable to people like us in this list than what goes by the word "progress" today. i do not wish to debate it on this forum for a variety of reasons and would think while the debate has a place on this forum, it may not be the right place for allocating majority of its time to free software etc. I think if you had no desire to debate this on this forum, then you should not have raised the question here. > you are an infectious speaker and will always sway people your way. that will not persuade me to go along with the substance of it though. What you are essentially saying is that you admit that what Sunil said is true, but you are not willing to admit it. That is really good. > > thanks much > ________________________________ > satish jha > cmd, james martin & co > www.jmcin.com > president, digital partners india > n-103, panchsheel park, > new delhi - 110 017 > v: 649 9384/5; 649 4384/5 > f: 649 4380 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: sunil > To: bytesforall_readers(a)yahoogroups.com > Cc: linux-india-general(a)lists.sourceforge.net ; fsf-friends(a)gnu.org.in > Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 5:21 PM > Subject: Re: [bytesforall_readers] Microsoft to share Windows code withIndia > > > Dear Satish, > > Free Software is not Open Source Software. Access to code is not the main > issue. Free License implies Ownership and Control. It is not the recipe of > coke but the ownership of coke. > > Copyrighting is the root cause of the digital divide... here is an > oversimplification so that you can understand.. > ------------------------------------------------------ > Before the concept of Private Property: > No Economic Divide > After the concept of Private Property: > Land Owners > Landless > Economic Divide > ------------------------------------------------------ > Before the concept of Intellectual Property:- > No Digital Divide > After the concept of Intellectual Property: > Those with Knowledge > Those without Knowledge > Digital Divide > ------------------------------------------------------ > > You will notice this trend in all forms of privatization:- water, phrases, > gestures, ideas, products etc. > > General Public License transfers ownership of digital assets to the poor. > To use a Marxist phrase - the means of production in the knowledge economy > will be transfered to the poor. This is a 'critical' component of any > digital divide intervention.Without this type of systemic intervention all > other ICT is merely technology band-aid. > > Please see my IIM-B presentation for more details: > http://www.mahiti.org/events/Event.2002-12-16.3025/view > > Thanks, > > Sunil

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Article in Peoples Democracy
by Nagarjuna G. 16 Dec '02

16 Dec '02

See this article in the CPM's weekly Peoples Decomocracy http://pd.cpim.org/2002/dec15/12152002_snd.htm Nagarjuna

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