On Saturday 25 September 2004 15:26, Nagarjuna wrote:
Last saturday in the FSF group meeting at Mumbai we discussed the possibility of cleaning up the pdf files, which are actually made using non-free software. Sayamindu said he will take care of this and will send the files back. Then the book will be uplaoded at FSF site.
Nagarjuna
i have doubts whether 'cleansing' the pdf-s in this way will be a meaningful exercise. no amount of cleansing can delete the truth that the files were created using non-free software. all we can hope to achieve is hide that truth from the public. i understand the importance of maintaining a clean image, but i think it will be more honest and more in keeping with our moral integrity to keep the files as they are, and add an apology for using non-free programs, and an explanation regarding why it was necessary to use them.
- t.
Tathagata Banerjee wrote:
On Saturday 25 September 2004 15:26, Nagarjuna wrote:
Last saturday in the FSF group meeting at Mumbai we discussed the possibility of cleaning up the pdf files, which are actually made using non-free software. Sayamindu said he will take care of this and will send the files back. Then the book will be uplaoded at FSF site.
Nagarjuna
i have doubts whether 'cleansing' the pdf-s in this way will be a
meaningful
exercise. no amount of cleansing can delete the truth that the
files were
created using non-free software. all we can hope to achieve is hide
that
truth from the public. i understand the importance of maintaining a
clean
image, but i think it will be more honest and more in keeping with
our moral
integrity to keep the files as they are, and add an apology for using non-free programs, and an explanation regarding why it was necessary
to use them.
It is not too difficult to see that some of the pdf files are addressed to authorities believed to be predominantly using non-free software, and using pdf format could be necessary to enable them to read until migration to free software takes place, and other formats like TeX or LaTeX are more widely used.
pdf was non-free in the past, but free these days. Please see http://www.masternewmedia.org/2002/03/31/creating_pdfs_without_adobe_acrobat...
pdfTeX at http://www.tug.org/applications/pdftex/ or like free software could be used to create pdf files.
GNU TEXMACS http://www.texmacs.org/index.php3 could be a good tool to create TeX files, and export them to other formats including pdf.
Probably, the pdf files could be left alone, as they are, and could be published in other formats as well.
On Wednesday 29 September 2004 16:57, Ramanraj K wrote:
It is not too difficult to see that some of the pdf files are addressed to authorities believed to be predominantly using non-free software, and using pdf format could be necessary to enable them to read until migration to free software takes place, and other formats like TeX or LaTeX are more widely used.
pdf was non-free in the past, but free these days. Please see http://www.masternewmedia.org/2002/03/31/creating_pdfs_without_adobe_acroba t_part_ii.htm
pdfTeX at http://www.tug.org/applications/pdftex/ or like free software could be used to create pdf files.
GNU TEXMACS http://www.texmacs.org/index.php3 could be a good tool to create TeX files, and export them to other formats including pdf.
Probably, the pdf files could be left alone, as they are, and could be published in other formats as well.
dear ramanraj k, the issue is not with the pdf file format as such, which can of course be created using free software, but with the bangla script, for which there are only rudimentary tools in the free software domain. there is no practical method of writing a book-length bangla work with the help of free tools. the integrated bangla support in certain recent versions of kde and gnome is very immature, and other solutions like bangtex by prof.palash baran pal are too cumbersome for sustained use. dipankar das's book was created using microsoft office on microsoft windows, and pdf-ed directly from there because the fonts were windows-specific. this is the problem that faces us now - whether we should own up to this or not. 'hope this clears up the issue for you.
- t.
Tathagata Banerjee wrote:
cumbersome for sustained use. dipankar das's book was created using microsoft office on microsoft windows, and pdf-ed directly from there because the fonts were windows-specific. this is the problem that faces us now - whether we should own up to this or not.
I think there is no shame in mentioning the method in which the book was created. Bengali (and other Indic scripts) are at a transitional stage in Freedom.
Just as the initial Free tools were created on non-free platforms till they became "self-hosting", I think the use of non-free document creation tools is perfectly ok as long as we have a public plan or intention to move toward Free tools as and when that happens.
- Sandip
,----[ Sandip Bhattacharya sandip@lug-delhi.org ] | Tathagata Banerjee wrote: | > cumbersome for sustained use. dipankar das's book was created | > using microsoft office on microsoft windows, and pdf-ed directly | > from there because the fonts were windows-specific. this is the | > problem that faces us now - whether we should own up to this or | > not. | | I think there is no shame in mentioning the method in which the book | was created. Bengali (and other Indic scripts) are at a transitional | stage in Freedom. | | Just as the initial Free tools were created on non-free platforms | till they became "self-hosting", I think the use of non-free | document creation tools is perfectly ok as long as we have a public | plan or intention to move toward Free tools as and when that | happens. `---- I agree with both Ramanraj's and Sandip's feedback.
I think ripping of tags or signatures inserted by non-free programs to disguise its creation method only makes our situation worse. Its like ostriches sticking their heads in the sand.
By keeping this info public, We will always be under the pressure that there are still non-free programs thats requires a free replacement.
This book and its source are free, except it has dependencies on non-free software. Just like GNU programs initially required non-free Unix kernels till we had our own.
But to publish them on our official GNU web site, we should to seek RMS's advice.
On Wed, 2004-09-29 at 13:41 -0700, Anand Babu wrote:
,----[ Sandip Bhattacharya sandip@lug-delhi.org ] | Tathagata Banerjee wrote: | > cumbersome for sustained use. dipankar das's book was created | > using microsoft office on microsoft windows, and pdf-ed directly | > from there because the fonts were windows-specific. this is the | > problem that faces us now - whether we should own up to this or | > not. | | I think there is no shame in mentioning the method in which the book | was created. Bengali (and other Indic scripts) are at a transitional | stage in Freedom. | | Just as the initial Free tools were created on non-free platforms | till they became "self-hosting", I think the use of non-free | document creation tools is perfectly ok as long as we have a public | plan or intention to move toward Free tools as and when that | happens. `---- I agree with both Ramanraj's and Sandip's feedback.
I think ripping of tags or signatures inserted by non-free programs to disguise its creation method only makes our situation worse. Its like ostriches sticking their heads in the sand.
By keeping this info public, We will always be under the pressure that there are still non-free programs thats requires a free replacement.
This book and its source are free, except it has dependencies on non-free software. Just like GNU programs initially required non-free Unix kernels till we had our own.
But to publish them on our official GNU web site, we should to seek RMS's advice.
Err... just to clarify.
I was present at the meeting that Prof Nagarjuna mentioned, and I don't think we are trying to remove the signatures of the non-Free sw from those files. Our main issue is that the fonts that have been used are non Free (probably) - and we were not very sure whether it is legally a very sound step to host the PDFs in the FSF-I servers - as the fonts are embedded in those PDFs. To know our exact legal standing, we need to find the license of the two fonts - but copies of the relevant licenses are available neither with me and nor with dipankar-da. I could only figure out the following copyright information from the font files.
********************************************************************** 1. For Samit_ATM:
Generated by Fontographer 0.0, Copyright Beam Engineers Cal. 22/8/93
2. For Samit: (??)
* The Computer Engineering Co. 1994-95. Created by Samit Ray.
3. For Satyajit:
Generated by Fontographer 3.5, Copyright Monotype India Ltd. Modified original Bold PS Font for True Type. **********************************************************************
Without knowledge of the license terms and conditions, we felt that it would not be very prudent to go ahead with the hosting plans.
Right now, we are trying to create Free equivalents of the fonts used in the document - that is, we are keeping the character - codepoint mapping intact, we are just replacing the non-Free glyphs with Free ones. Once that is done, we will change the font in the editable file created by dipankar-da, generate PDFs with it in OpenOffice.org, and then I think we would be able to host those files in the FSF-I server.
To summarise - FSF-I is just playing safe here, and personally, I see nothing wrong with that.
-thanks- Sayamindu
PS: And another thing - it is (and was) always possible to use legacy fonts like Samit/Satyajit in a GNU/Linux based system. I have the technical know-how on how to get Samit/Satyajit working with OpenOffice.org (complete with custom keyboard mapping and other such fancy stuff). But since all these legacy fonts do not conform to any kind of standard - that know-how will remain with me. Of course, if anyone is interested - s/he is free to figure out the "hacks" himself/herself. :)
On Friday 01 October 2004 23:06, Sayamindu Dasgupta wrote:
Err... just to clarify.
I was present at the meeting that Prof Nagarjuna mentioned, and I don't think we are trying to remove the signatures of the non-Free sw from those files. Our main issue is that the fonts that have been used are non Free (probably) - and we were not very sure whether it is legally a very sound step to host the PDFs in the FSF-I servers - as the fonts are embedded in those PDFs. To know our exact legal standing, we need to find the license of the two fonts - but copies of the relevant licenses are available neither with me and nor with dipankar-da. I could only figure out the following copyright information from the font files.
ummm... why didn't anyone say so before? this thread has been going on for some days, and now it seems it was based on a misunderstanding... :-( well if fonts are the only issue, then sayam please go ahead and do the needful so we can put it up on the fsf server asap. dear prof.nagarjuna, please understand that we were all confused on this issue, and that is why perhaps some conflicting and rash sentiments were expressed. now that sayam has cleared things up for us, let's work together to put up a free-font version on the fsf server.
- t.
Tathagata Banerjee said on Sat, Oct 02, 2004 at 04:49:07PM +0530,:
ummm... why didn't anyone say so before?
Why don't people read mails posted here? Please have a look at:-
http://mm.gnu.org.in/pipermail/fsf-friends/2004-September/002323.html
Where *I* said:-
If I understand it correctly, the Ankur Bangla team (or a good member of that*) has offered to re-create another pdf with free software and embed free fonts.
- Will the gentle man please raise his hands? (And I apologise if I got the message wrong)
/me sulks at my mail going unread!!!
On Thursday 30 Sep 2004 2:11 am, Anand Babu wrote:
But to publish them on our official GNU web site, we should to seek RMS's advice.
let me exemplify. If I have recorded RMS's speach in a video and digitized in a propreitary VCD format and started distributing it since the video preaches free software philosophy, it may be OK. But if FSF does the distribution of that it is not OK. I dont want FSF to swallow pragmatism, it is fighting an ideological battle. It is not fair to drag FSF into it.
If technical solutions to encode the document in free font doesnt exist we could have searched for other options. our expert hackers suggested that this problem can be solved without bothering the author. So we wait till they send us the files. Meanwhile the book is already uploaded on several other sites as it is. Is there still a point for Sayamindu to spend his precious time to create a font to enable only this document?
I appreciate the author's interest to publish the book on FSF's site. What I dont is his impatience. I am not those reovlutionaries who will try to get to the end whatever be the means. I believe that MEANS IS THE END. It is just an illusion that there is something called an end other than the means and we need a means to get there. If we change our means we are already there. I dont mind compromising a principle here and a principle there in my personal life, but I dont want a public body to do this when there are other options. In the absence of any other options we can consider, and say that to public why we are doing what we are doing instead of being an Ostrich.
Nagarjuna
Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:
Tathagata Banerjee wrote:
cumbersome for sustained use. dipankar das's book was created using microsoft office on microsoft windows, and pdf-ed directly from there because the fonts were windows-specific. this is the problem that faces us now - whether we should own up to this or not.
I think there is no shame in mentioning the method in which the book was created. Bengali (and other Indic scripts) are at a transitional stage in Freedom.
Just as the initial Free tools were created on non-free platforms till they became "self-hosting", I think the use of non-free document creation tools is perfectly ok as long as we have a public plan or intention to move toward Free tools as and when that happens.
Dear Tathagata Banerjee, thanks for the clarification. I certainly thought that the issue was over using pdf formats. Sandip is correct and I hope none of what AB fears have been done. But, at this stage, we could avoid advocating free software using material generated from non-free software which may be criticised as being hypocritical. Probably, the first step in Bengali would be to take more initiatives to have a free environment.
BTW, V.Arun of PPE arun@ppeindia.com, one of the ILUGC members informed that a certain owner of a large number of high quality Indic fonts of professional grade used by the print industry, is much interested in making them available to the free software community. Anyone who has the interest, technical know how, and the time to spare, may get in touch V.Arun. HTH.
-
Anand Babu -
Mahesh T. Pai -
Nagarjuna G. -
Ramanraj K -
Sandip Bhattacharya -
Sayamindu Dasgupta -
Tathagata Banerjee