--------- Forwarded message ---------- From: thomas joseph thomasatps@gmail.com Date: 08-Mar-2007 09:44 Subject: [ATPS] Re: Fwd: [Fsf-friends] BSNL should find a place in "Hall of Shame" To: ATPS@googlegroups.com
Dear all,
It is not BSNL as a whole to be blamed. It is the socio-economic-cultural attitude of our peope in general that is to be blamed. How about most of other Govt Departments, Undertakings and enterprises.
Of course those in authority in BSNL who go for ms products are not only to be blamed but shall be condemned. But not BSNL as a whole. Why ? Here is an example of an open tender floated by the same BSNL, from Ernakulam SSA. Extracts......
QUOTE """"" 16. SOFTWARE 1.The operating system should be GNU/LINUX 2.The RDBMS should be PostgreSQL 3.The web server should be Apache. 4.The vendor must provide Source code of all applications with all passwords, operating system and development tools and the application software package all of which shall be transferred under General Public License providing for total technology transfer. ''''''''' UNQUOTE
Is not an example to be emulated by others.
Joseph Thomas
Of course those in authority in BSNL who go for ms products are not only to be blamed but shall be condemned. But not BSNL as a whole. Why ?
I suppose the entire mail server has now been transferred to be on Microsoft services. The metro based services have already been transferred, and others are in due process. All Indian subscribers of sancharnet mail services will now be using Microsoft's services. All the mails are now at the mercy of this corporate, who can do what it wants with even sensitive Indian data.
But quite alarmly, one finds the reason Mr Srinivas gives for this migration is "security". We all are aware that it was for national security reasons that President of India had slammed Microsoft services, during his inaugural speech at IIIT, Pune in May 2003 - and to Bill Gates directly in Nov 2002.
Microsoft's notoriety in redefining "security" has been conveniently re-used and relayed to convince the authorities by Mr Srinivas. This is foul play, a great act of treachery, executed neatly - worse still, none in MIT have taken serious notice of it. Indirectly it also exposes what could have transpired between Maran and Gates when they met at latter's residence in US, a few months ago.
Is not an example to be emulated by others.
Maybe. Such acts could also be used by BSNL to convince legal authorities that it is using appropriate technology and is not averse to using Free Software - and that would be enough to silence us.
Chief Justice has indicated that internet services are going to be used by judiciary - fair - but not enough. An Indian citizen would also need to be empowered to file a Public Interest Litigation through internet - by using an e-mail. That could perhaps qualify as an act to counter digital-divide.
Lets keep watching .... CK Raju
--------- Forwarded message ---------- From: thomas joseph thomasatps@gmail.com Date: 08-Mar-2007 09:44 Subject: [ATPS] Re: Fwd: [Fsf-friends] BSNL should find a place in "Hall of Shame" To: ATPS@googlegroups.com
Dear all,
It is not BSNL as a whole to be blamed. It is the socio-economic-cultural attitude of our peope in general that is to be blamed. How about most of other Govt Departments, Undertakings and enterprises.
The major stumbling block with Free Software promotion in India in general and Kerala in particular is that people are more interested in talking than in taking pains to translate their dreams into actions. As soon as some of the M$ solutions are used in some parts of the world they are ready to spent any amount of time to call it a shame and what not, but paying scant attention to the realities. The present scenario at the Government organisations is such that most of both the decision makers as well as the users (our administrative staff at the offices) are least aware of the security related aspects of the of the existing softwares. The today's decision makers are all products of our own Universities, and had our Universities inculcated some semblance of social values in the minds of the people they have created, this scenario would not have been there. It is already more than 5 years since the Free Software Foundation was launched in India and Kerala's role is paramount in its creation. I still remember, during the course of Stallman's keynote address, one person happened to ask whether there was any Free software available for use in offices so that we could keep and track our offices correspondences (in general our so called office automation software), but Stallman paused for few moments and said we have got a software called CVS to keep the versions of the software. I have always held Stallman's answer in highest esteem and it is a great suggestion too. But do you think we can ask our office assistants to use CVS to manage their correspondences. So office automation is an important area where all kind of security aspects are coming into pictures. Now you are all very active in the lists. Do you have ever thought that when it comes to Government lots of high security softwares are required. and we (the GNU enthusiasts) never take any pain to develop these and instead we wait for the American free sotware people to write something to automate their offices in GPL. And as soon as we come across these pieces our GNU people pounce on them to take other people to task, leading to them to the Hall of Shame.
Now I am forced to think that our Free Software people may be day dreaming for the time when the office automation being used in White House to be GPLed! so that we can grab this piece of cake, and loose no time to rush to Secretariat to ask the poor officers there to find out the kind of software being used currently, and if it happens to be M$ we will brook no time call cats on them for failing to use the just released robust White House GPLed software for office automation. And if they defy we will tell them that we have no other alternative than to send you all to the Hall of Shame.
Please do not think that all the softwares in Government are secure except for Mail servers. In India most of softwares are running in Government are M$ based, and we have no other alternative than to work overtime to develop customised secured software for use in Government as replacements to the former. Unless you motivate Free software people to develop GNU/Linux based softwares for use in Government, the Government will keep going as it is and you keep sending people to the Hall of Shame.
I am single handedly managing nearly sixty GNU/Linux systems in and around Trivandrum in various Government offices. The result is that I am virtually swamped by telephone calls for support. Lot of people are around me and when I ask them to spare their little bit of time for the cause of Free Software they are full of GPLed logics to find out excuses. Please tell me if any free time is available with you so that you too can share with me the work (or pleasure) I am doing right now. The kind of support calls are to copy files to USB memory sticks, to play some videos, to install drivers for new printers in old Linux boxes which won't support the new ones because of low memory limitations etc. Some time the works takes lots of time and you may need to do all kinds of works starting source code compilation, searching the web for sources for new drivers or sometimes you may have to play with the drivers sources too. Come forward and share the pain and pleasure of development, installation and maintenance of Linux systems and spirit.
There are lots less active people out there and please assign them the work of hunting and sending people to the Hall of Shame.
Please ponder over these
Do we have an Office Automation software customised for our office culture? Do we have an Accounting Software for use in our Government offices? Do we have an inventory package? Do we have a project management for use in Government? Do we have a home grown software to manage to Educational Institutions?
BUT we have secured WEB servers, MAIL servers etc.
I wonder whether we are waiting for the Apache team and Mail server team managers to develop the software we need in our Government offices. And we indulge what we know best ie. witch hunting and sending people to the Hall of Shame.
It is high time that we should find enough Free software people to develop more secure softwares and make our society meaningful in a world where constant preoccupation of the developers is to shift jobs from one proprietary company to another to develop proprietary softwares, and at same time speaking volumes about GPL?
-- Rajagopal CV
--- cvr3@river-valley.org wrote:
--------- Forwarded message ---------- From: thomas joseph thomasatps@gmail.com Date: 08-Mar-2007 09:44 Subject: [ATPS] Re: Fwd: [Fsf-friends] BSNL should find a place
in "Hall
of Shame" To: ATPS@googlegroups.com
Dear all,
It is not BSNL as a whole to be blamed. It is the socio-economic-cultural attitude of our peope in general that is
to be
blamed. How about most of other Govt Departments, Undertakings
and
enterprises.
The major stumbling block with Free Software promotion in India in general and Kerala in particular is that people are more interested in talking than in taking pains to translate their dreams into actions. As soon as some of the M$ solutions are used in some parts of the world they are ready to spent any amount of time to call it a shame and what not, but paying scant attention to the realities. The present scenario at the Government organisations is such that most of both the decision makers as well as the users (our administrative staff at the offices) are least aware of the security related aspects of the of the existing softwares. The today's decision makers are all products of our own Universities, and had our Universities inculcated some semblance of social values in the minds of the people they have created, this scenario would not have been there. It is already more than 5 years since the Free Software Foundation was launched in India and Kerala's role is paramount in its creation. I still remember, during the course of Stallman's keynote address, one person happened to ask whether there was any Free software available for use in offices so that we could keep and track our offices correspondences (in general our so called office automation software), but Stallman paused for few moments and said we have got a software called CVS to keep the versions of the software. I have always held Stallman's answer in highest esteem and it is a great suggestion too. But do you think we can ask our office assistants to use CVS to manage their correspondences. So office automation is an important area where all kind of security aspects are coming into pictures. Now you are all very active in the lists. Do you have ever thought that when it comes to Government lots of high security softwares are required. and we (the GNU enthusiasts) never take any pain to develop these and instead we wait for the American free sotware people to write something to automate their offices in GPL. And as soon as we come across these pieces our GNU people pounce on them to take other people to task, leading to them to the Hall of Shame.
Now I am forced to think that our Free Software people may be day dreaming for the time when the office automation being used in White House to be GPLed! so that we can grab this piece of cake, and loose no time to rush to Secretariat to ask the poor officers there to find out the kind of software being used currently, and if it happens to be M$ we will brook no time call cats on them for failing to use the just released robust White House GPLed software for office automation. And if they defy we will tell them that we have no other alternative than to send you all to the Hall of Shame.
Please do not think that all the softwares in Government are secure except for Mail servers. In India most of softwares are running in Government are M$ based, and we have no other alternative than to work overtime to develop customised secured software for use in Government as replacements to the former. Unless you motivate Free software people to develop GNU/Linux based softwares for use in Government, the Government will keep going as it is and you keep sending people to the Hall of Shame.
I am single handedly managing nearly sixty GNU/Linux systems in and around Trivandrum in various Government offices. The result is that I am virtually swamped by telephone calls for support. Lot of people are around me and when I ask them to spare their little bit of time for the cause of Free Software they are full of GPLed logics to find out excuses. Please tell me if any free time is available with you so that you too can share with me the work (or pleasure) I am doing right now. The kind of support calls are to copy files to USB memory sticks, to play some videos, to install drivers for new printers in old Linux boxes which won't support the new ones because of low memory limitations etc. Some time the works takes lots of time and you may need to do all kinds of works starting source code compilation, searching the web for sources for new drivers or sometimes you may have to play with the drivers sources too. Come forward and share the pain and pleasure of development, installation and maintenance of Linux systems and spirit.
There are lots less active people out there and please assign them the work of hunting and sending people to the Hall of Shame.
Please ponder over these
Do we have an Office Automation software customised for our office culture? Do we have an Accounting Software for use in our Government offices? Do we have an inventory package? Do we have a project management for use in Government? Do we have a home grown software to manage to Educational Institutions?
BUT we have secured WEB servers, MAIL servers etc.I wonder whether we are waiting for the Apache team and Mail server team managers to develop the software we need in our Government offices. And we indulge what we know best ie. witch hunting and sending people to the Hall of Shame.
It is high time that we should find enough Free software people to develop more secure softwares and make our society meaningful in a world where constant preoccupation of the developers is to shift jobs from one proprietary company to another to develop proprietary softwares, and at same time speaking volumes about GPL?
-- Rajagopal CV
Well said Rajagopal. A very apt assessment of situation on the ground in Government offices. As a person implementing FOSS in Govt office I feel the same as what you feel. Let there be more Free Software for Indian needs. Let there be better and easier support to FOSS. After that we will think about who will be in hall of fame or hall of shame.
Raman.P
__________________________________________________________ Yahoo! India Answers: Share what you know. Learn something new http://in.answers.yahoo.com/
(slightly off topic for the _thread_ but today, the Kerala budget has allocated 50 lakh rupees for setting up a Free Software Resource Center please see first few lines of page 32 (p. 42 of the pdf of http://kerala.gov.in/budget2007_08/bud_sp_mal.pdf - looks like an English version will be available shortly).
cvr3@river-valley.org said on Fri, Mar 09, 2007 at 10:09:24AM -0000,:
softwares. The today's decision makers are all products of our own Universities, and had our Universities inculcated some semblance of social values in the minds of the people they have created, this
This is a chicken-and-egg situation, and can be solved only with patience.
are required. and we (the GNU enthusiasts) never take any pain to develop these and instead we wait for the American free sotware people to write something to automate their offices in GPL. And as soon as we come across these pieces our GNU people pounce on them to take other people to task, leading to them to the Hall of Shame.
(snip)
released robust White House GPLed software for office automation. And if they defy we will tell them that we have no other alternative than to send you all to the Hall of Shame.
(snip)
Government are M$ based, and we have no other alternative than to work overtime to develop customised secured software for use in Government as replacements to the former. Unless you motivate Free software people to
Will the government throw the kind of resources it is throwing at proprietary software at the volunteers?
I remember the experience of the IndLinux people, who approached the (central) govt. for assistance in the localisation efforts. They were told that funds will be available, as long as the project `employs' people specified by the babudom.
develop GNU/Linux based softwares for use in Government, the Government will keep going as it is and you keep sending people to the Hall of Shame.
+1 to that.
I am single handedly managing nearly sixty GNU/Linux systems in and around Trivandrum in various Government offices. The result is that I am virtually swamped by telephone calls for support. Lot of people are around me and when I ask them to spare their little bit of time for the cause of Free Software they are full of GPLed logics to find out excuses.
Once again, why cannot the government approach an organisation which provides paid support for this kind of things?
If the government cannot find organisations capable of doing, the government can certainly spend the money to build the necessary capacity.
The government certainly can afford that - it is spending 473 crores on IT enabled services and the Akshaya project (http://www.akshaya.net). That is what the budget speech says.
Please tell me if any free time is available with you so that you too can share with me the work (or pleasure) I am doing right now. The kind of support calls are to copy files to USB memory sticks, to play some videos, to install drivers for new printers in old Linux boxes which won't support the new ones because of low memory limitations etc. Some time the works takes lots of time and you may need to do all kinds of works starting source code compilation, searching the web for sources for new drivers or sometimes you may have to play with the drivers sources too. Come forward and share the pain and pleasure of development, installation and maintenance of Linux systems and spirit.
The government has (ought to have) a bunch of people in charge of doing the sysadmin work. (my information comes from http://linuxgazette.net/issue77/sunil.html
It should not be very difficult to form a team which does this.
Alternatively, IMHO, we should get the government to hire people who know this kind fo stuff. Surely, this would be a way of helping the Free Software community than forming a bunch of volunteers who do the foot work while a group of paid workers sit idle ``eating'' the money?
With your influence in the government (the govt is not going to give 60 servers to somebody it does not know well), you can get it to channelise the 473 crores it proposes to spend on creating the akshaya bondage into free software?
Do we have an Office Automation software customised for our office culture?
Will mydms help? (http://dms.markuswestphal.de)
Do we have an Accounting Software for use in our Government offices?
Government accounts are single entry; no ledgers. Just cash books. All transactions are only on ``receipts'' basis only. What is the difficulty here? A simple spread shit (OO.o, gnumeric, etc. will do).
Do we have an inventory package? Do we have a project management for use in Government?
egroupware has the necessary infrastructure for this. Should not be too difficult to customise them.
Do we have a home grown software to manage to Educational Institutions?
1. Please see http://www.schooltool.org/ 2. Why should it have to be ``homegrown''? 3. Why discuss educational institutions while discussing government? Surely, you have a reason?
Government accounts are single entry; no ledgers. Just cash books. All transactions are only on ``receipts'' basis only. What is the difficulty here? A simple spread shit (OO.o, gnumeric, etc. will do).
Vakil, I think there is also a danger if we start entertaining arguments from this "fitness for a purpose" direction (or for that matter the "rate of development of Free Software services"), when we are discussing about freedom of access, analysis or modification of software relating to public services. In the initial days of IT@School programme in Kerala, we had heard such arguments and listened to teachers who wanted to know how to counter such arguments - which invariably came up at every public engagement of issues involving software freedom.
A democratic state is what is constituted by its citizens. It need not necessarily entertain something dictated by a corporate or wishful thinking of government servants (if it happens to be on behalf of corporates), and in any case, its the will of the citizens that are paramount. The preamble is pretty clear about this aspect. Here, a mail server assumes great significance to the citizens of this nation because it is a platform or interface through which we express our thoughts and expressions. This is a mode of expression of a fundamental right by any citizen who has access to internet.
A state cannot be part of any contractual obligation with which it cannot guarantee a citizen adequate processing of her data, watching over its integrity, confidentiality, and accessibility throughout time, as these are very critical aspects for its normal functioning. This is where Free Software (a technical term - to quote Dr Nagarjuna - which is any software that guarantees freedom of use, analysis, distribution and publishing with amendments) should be projected as a solution to every public service in a democratic state.
And we are not even denying Microsoft from extending its services to BSNL with such freedoms incorporated in its solutions. All what we are claiming is that without insistence on these guarantees required and mandated by our constitution, BSNL's top executives have committed a mistake - and we hope they will soon accord priority to our suggestions.
CK Raju
Mahesh T. Pai said on Fri, Mar 09, 2007 at 09:27:54PM +0530,:
difficulty here? A simple spread shit (OO.o, gnumeric, etc. will do).
Ought ot have been ``spread sheet''; obviously. mea culpa!!!!
cvr3@river-valley.org wrote:
I am single handedly managing nearly sixty GNU/Linux systems in and around Trivandrum in various Government offices. The result is that I am virtually swamped by telephone calls for support. Lot of people are around me and when I ask them to spare their little bit of time for the cause of Free Software they are full of GPLed logics to find out excuses. Please tell me if any free time is available with you so that you too can share with me the work (or pleasure) I am doing right now. The kind of support calls are to copy files to USB memory sticks, to play some videos, to install drivers for new printers in old Linux boxes which won't support the new ones because of low memory limitations etc. Some time the works takes lots of time and you may need to do all kinds of works starting source code compilation, searching the web for sources for new drivers or sometimes you may have to play with the drivers sources too. Come forward and share the pain and pleasure of development, installation and maintenance of Linux systems and spirit.
CVR, I don't mean any disrespect, but why did you take up this support work? Unless you do this for free, this is the kind of work you have to do when you take up the task for supporting workstations in offices( have you used the horrible software amc support of windows in such offices? the only work they do is uninstalling/installing stuff when they don't work rather than fixing the problem)
Have you supported offices with Windows too? Believe me, the support calls are generally similar, and you mostly need to explain only once to people, and they take it from there.
I have also been associated with a prominent finance company in Delhi which has one fine day moved to Linux and Open Office, to cut down on legit software expenses.
Once people get used to Openoffice, Firefox etc. and generally don't try to do too many things on their office computer (like installing limewire or kazaa), they normally don't have any problem. In the few months that I had been associated with them, there were very few problems that were referred to me, and that the local sysadmin (a windows trained one even) could not handle.
Once the office decided to move to Linux, we standardized all hardware. We didn't order printers which couldn't work on Linux, didn't buy network cards which didn't have any open drivers, etc. There were always those people (including big bosses) who wanted some new fangled hardware/peripheral in the office. They were politely told that if they want it, they can install it themselves. You can guess the end result.
Probably because this wasn't a government company and therefore, people were more disciplined. But in your case, if they aren't, then it is a case of poor management (not yours, the government) which couldn't take a more practical or disciplined approach to migration. And probably you haven't been given more authority in making technical decisions in the whole org. I might be mistaken here, and if I am, please accept my apologies.
But that doesn't mean that all Linux migrations are such a problem.
There are lots less active people out there and please assign them the work of hunting and sending people to the Hall of Shame.
Please do not misunderstand this call for blacklisting with quality of linux support. Linux advocacy has to happen from multiple fronts - on one hand, we need to ask people to use the software(You do this). On the other hand, "projects" like the hall of shame, aim to make the life better for people who start using Linux.
The hall of shame "project" was started for precisely the problems that you are facing. Having problems installing that new peripheral sold by HCL? Or Wipro? (these are just examples) Having problems using Linux to use your bank's website?
The solution to these is not only that Linux programmers should code tools which work with these hardware. The hardware manufacturers/webmasters also need to be convinced/pressurised/cajoled to make their products compatible with Linux(and standards). This is an equally important task that should not be taken lightly.
Please ponder over these
Do we have an Office Automation software customised for our office culture? Do we have an Accounting Software for use in our Government offices? Do we have an inventory package? Do we have a project management for use in Government? Do we have a home grown software to manage to Educational Institutions?
To tell you the truth, most of these work you mention are best done customized for the organization. Yes, common pluggable tools might be a good idea to have, but these are more like services than products. Customizing opensource tools for such work is the bread and butter of all vendors which specialize in Linux solutions. That doesn't mean that we should not have open source tools for the same, just that at the end of the day we would always need these vendors who have to customize the product for the customer.
Because of the popularity of certain proprietary software, many orgs have changed their processes around these products, but the best fit are always customized packages.
Come to think of it,even in the proprietary world, there aren't too many affordable software for many of these(by cost I mean the cost of acquiring these legal software for all the required workstations in the office).
- Sandip
Come to think of it,even in the proprietary world, there aren't too many affordable software for many of these(by cost I mean the cost of acquiring these legal software for all the required workstations in the office).
I feel this is very relevant to this thread, I am now coming to the contradictions on client side computing.
Some five years back I had a feeling that Linux will steam roll over M$ machines and starts assuming a dominant role in the client side computing. During those period the M$ application software were bearing slightly heavier price tags too. But at the same time Linux tools were all free and the variety was so exciting that it could easily put M$ people to shame. The window managers like GNOME and KDE were so beautiful and versatile that there was absolutely no rival at all on the M$ side. And also Linux had lots fantastic client software such as Mozilla, Image Magic, Evolution, Gnumeric, Open Office suites and the list goes without an end and the M$ equivalents are heavily priced. And lots of software development activities started happening with the help of GTK and QT libraries. The tcl/tk had threatened to shatter the Visual Basic, and the gcc, gtk and qt combine threatened to kill the Microsoft C++ libraries. Under this scenario even the window stalwarts started migrating to Linux because every thing in Linux is free, powerful and cost effective.
All of a sudden with the growth of Internet the software development activity moved from client/server to web based ones. Currently almost all the softwares are WEB based (all developed using free software libraries) and what we need on the client side is only a browser. What people are now trying do under Web 2 specs is to re-capture the rich client experience (with the help of AJAX etc.) they have lost with the disappearance of standalone client applications. Now people started forgetting about what kind of OS they are using. Even in the event of OS crash because of virus etc, people just need to reinstall their M$ OS alone, there is no head ache of application (client ones) re-installation and configuration at all. Earlier when the softwares are of standalones, if something goes bad in M$ platform, people had the nightmare of reinstalling all their application softwares and the consequent loss of data. And exactly this software re-installation and configuration nightmares coupled with virus attacks and consequent security holes in M$ that drove people increasingly towards Linux in the past.
Now almost all the softwares starting from e-commerce portals, document management systems to mail clients are all WEB based and hence the OS has been reduced to an insignificant place. Even, I used to see Linux gurus installing their software in Linux servers and going to a M$ client for testing (what they have installed in Linux). What is subtly taking place here is even the Linux gurus are unaware of the fact they are indirectly sharing/promoting the M$ platform. Add to all Open Office, Gnumeric etc are already available in M$.
If Linux community themselves remain unmindful of the client side, is there any way of increasing the Linux users? I have a feeling that the Internet has already come to the rescue of M$. The M$ may be loosing the server side to the Linux and Linux is increasingly loosing the client side to the Windows. If you put this in another way Linux is eating into the Solaris more than the windows market.
The peculiar feature of a new PC is that it is coming bundled with the M$ windows and people just need to use it. All they require is a powerful w3c compliant Browser. This being the present reality I would like to know what the free software community as a whole would feel,
1. If a Linux solution provider approaching organisations both in private and public sectors and tyring to sell his software solutions and services, if encounters a situation of all the client machines being under M$ and the organisation is not willing to migrate to Linux, is it ethically and morally correct to build his binaries under M$ using open source libraries and install them in the M$ machines?
2. Are this kind of compromises allowed, and without this it possible for GNU/Linux community to increase the number Linux users in the near future?
3. So my view is that instead taking an antagonising path towards other OS users, it is better to convince or cajole them to the side of Linux.
4. I would like to know if the Hall of Shame theory is going to be applied on the client side, particularly for item No. 1
-- Rajagopal CV
On 3/12/07, cvr3@river-valley.org cvr3@river-valley.org wrote:
I feel this is very relevant to this thread, I am now coming to the contradictions on client side computing.
== The thread is being split into more finer threads ==
CVR, 1. If that is the worry then there could be FreeDOS, ReactOS etc which can give M$ a good scare.
2. A fact that web applications are on the rise doesn't decrease the importance of servers - they only increase, because information is easy to control if its concentrated - it becomes a nice hot target - which only increase our demand for such public services to be on Free Software, because citizens feel more secure if public information is not only detached from a private player but also if they themselves are its masters.
3. Lastly, on education content. Is education only about content ? It can rarely be so. Education involves critical thinking - at its core - one, that can make any hardened project very very brittle - which in turn makes any idea of a finished project, totally naive. Since proprietary world usually takes everything given, for granted - as a habit - their views on education also gets distorted - finished projects are a norm here, not exceptions. This is a deep rooted cognitive disorder, a fallout of proprietariness. Free Software community almost always thinks, questions, discusses and differs - and lets their difference known - as a fork, or as a modification.
Enough of this thread. Bye. CK Raju
-
Anilkumar K V -
CK Raju, Thrissur -
cvr3＠river-valley.org -
Mahesh T. Pai -
Raman.P -
Sandip Bhattacharya