Rakesh 'arky' Ambati wrote:
--- Sriharsha Vedurmudi sriharsha.v@redpinesignals.com wrote:
Is this "Project Shiksha" (Shiksha -> Teachin) or 'Project Siksha' (Siksha -> Punishment)?
So, M$ is now kicking off with a colourful Trojan Horse.....
Generally, we cannot go by such unofficial reports which may be false or incorrect based on rumours. We would need to go by information from more authoritative sources. If the MOU is true, it is a very serious issue calling for swift action. Regardless of whether the MOU is true or false, we need to apprise the concerned officials with a few facts.
It has taken a great deal of effort, enthusiasm and energy, of FSF, RMS, Eric Raymond, Linus Torvalds, Alan Cox and thousands of other developers, to create a totally free operating system, that is robust, secure and open. After more than two decades of hard work, we just have to take what is being served on a plate and eat it. The advocacy these days is more on merely *using* free software, that is much, much easier than *developing* free software. A government that cares for the welfare of its people would never ignore free software. Probably a memorandum could be addressed to the Govt of WB to take note of the free software movement, pointing to very fine examples from around the world, particularly Brazil, the whole of Africa, and Europe.
The following report is particularly interesting: http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/Africa-Becoming-Vast-Frontier-for-Free-and...
I am sure mere representations to the Govt. of WB should bring in desired changes, and PIL or other action would only come last of all, if necessary at all.
Regards, Ramanraj.
Hi Ramanraj,
Couldn't agree more with Ramanraj.But please understand that the threat is real.There is not a murmur from bangalore after the news of the MOU was splashed across the national papers.
Often,direct action has better results.We the Indian may be the God's lesser children, not at all the dumber ones.Its those Red Taped Babus in Govt offices who don't understand the pains we have taken to build such a fine legacy,it pains me to see it treated like this.
And to add to my misery, the community is quiet about it.Is the who list filled with the sound box's,isn't there a soul with enough guts to box someones ears and live with it.
What a Shame !!!
If am overly rude,I' MEANT TO BE.
[Damn, the drugs are wearing off.Got to get my fix.]
Cya
--arky
--- Ramanraj K ramanraj@iqara.net wrote:
Rakesh 'arky' Ambati wrote:
--- Sriharsha Vedurmudi sriharsha.v@redpinesignals.com wrote:
Is this "Project Shiksha" (Shiksha -> Teachin) or 'Project Siksha' (Siksha -> Punishment)?
So, M$ is now kicking off with a colourful Trojan Horse.....
Generally, we cannot go by such unofficial reports which may be false or incorrect based on rumours. We would need to go by information from more authoritative sources. If the MOU is true, it is a very serious issue calling for swift action. Regardless of whether the MOU is true or false, we need to apprise the concerned officials with a few facts.
It has taken a great deal of effort, enthusiasm and energy, of FSF, RMS, Eric Raymond, Linus Torvalds, Alan Cox and thousands of other developers, to create a totally free operating system, that is robust, secure and open. After more than two decades of hard work, we just have to take what is being served on a plate and eat it. The advocacy these days is more on merely *using* free software, that is much, much easier than *developing* free software. A government that cares for the welfare of its people would never ignore free software. Probably a memorandum could be addressed to the Govt of WB to take note of the free software movement, pointing to very fine examples from around the world, particularly Brazil, the whole of Africa, and Europe.
The following report is particularly interesting:
http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/Africa-Becoming-Vast-Frontier-for-Free-and...
I am sure mere representations to the Govt. of WB should bring in desired changes, and PIL or other action would only come last of all, if necessary at all.
Regards, Ramanraj.
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On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 19:47 +0530, Ramanraj K wrote:
have to take what is being served on a plate and eat it. The advocacy these days is more on merely *using* free software, that is much, much easier than *developing* free software. A government that cares for the welfare of its people would never ignore free software. Probably
[...]
I am sure mere representations to the Govt. of WB should bring in desired changes, and PIL or other action would only come last of all, if necessary at all.
Unfortunately, while there is considerable merit in reason why we need to use Free software, mere representations might not suffice.
M$ is not merely selling software, it is selling solutions i.e. software which serve a purpose. Some of their selling tactics could be a reasonable demonstration of how their software helped solve the given problem in the tender. And most importantly, how this software can be installed, used to solved the given problem and supported by either them (very unlikely) or their dealers.
In our case, representation might not be enough. A demonstration could be better, but again that doesn't help much. *Having* an organization come up and say that "we will install, solve the problem and give you support", is the answer.
After all, using Free Software is like the ultra-sensitive issue of caste-based reservation. There is an important social objective behind a policy of using Free Software. But unless the software actually goes ahead and solves the problem (and not merely trumpet that it can change the world and/or do anything), it will only hinder progress - in this case, egovernance.
The babus might not articulate this question explicitly - but their nagging doubts will always be "Ok. This is great software - technically and socially. But are you going to come and install it for us? Are you going to train our staff?Are you going to come and help us when we are stuck? Oh? Try Linux vendors, you say? Why dont they come up and apply in the tendering process then?". And we are back to the same problem. Guess who works best in the selling/pitching/marketing games in government tenders?
My point is - We need to encourage industry participation in the evangelising process. Presentations should be made by not only LUG people (who can articulate that Free software be given serious thought and preference), but also actual industry people who will negotiate contracts with the government. Regardless of how much you loath the commercial world, you might actually have to help them come up with convincing arguments/presentations to get the job done.
I believe any Linux evangelising is deficient unless it addresses three points at the same time:
1. Advocacy - Technical and most importantly, philosophical reasons to use Free software.
Reason: Without advocacy people use Free software for the wrong reasons (e.g. cost), and will move on when these reasons do not hold (e.g. [hypothetical] M$ coming up with a Windows version which cost Rs. 0, and charges Rs. 3000/year for updates.).
2. Industry support - People who can actually go ahead and help government and the rest of the industry use the software, working on a purely service model, of course, for a fee.
Reason: You cant force everybody to be a geek. They need to get their work done. Regardless of how much they feel for the cause.
3. Interoperability - Be vigilant, take action and ensure that users of Free software are not discriminated. Scream at companies and governments which incorporate proprietary software, technology and data into their policies and processes. e.g. forms/applications in Word format, IE only websites, windows only hardware, windows only software etc.
Reason: You cant make people give up everything and use Free software, and then shrug/rant when essential resources cannot be accessed. Keep making the world a better place while inviting people to it. :)
You miss out any one of the above, and you are only going to ensure that people desert the field in a very short time, most of the time vowing never to come back.
- Sandip
That was a very specific and excellant analysis of the current Indian Scenario. As Sandip was saying, mere representation will not do the needful. A company should compete with M$I, put up a system (with similar configuration or maybe less - to say the solution costs less) and show/demonstrate that the software installed in their box is equally/more effective/powerful in achieving the goal. I believe the following is needed:
1. The Company Stands for the complete life cycle of the project (right from tender phase to a reasonable contract period) which includes installation, training, maintenance and upgrades. (All these ofcourse at a price, which may be equally competetive with M$I as they might reduce it if they sense competetion).
2. The company should prove (by demonstration from an expert) that FS-based software actually performs better/equally than M$ product in the same category.
3. Offer the entire package at lower/equal price than M$.
Coming to the hurdle in implementing the above: M$ can afford to spend a few million Rupees for publicity, personal presents and may also offer high incentives initially to penetrate into the market and supress its competetors. So, which business man / small company can afford to compete with it?
Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:
On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 19:47 +0530, Ramanraj K wrote:
have to take what is being served on a plate and eat it. The advocacy these days is more on merely *using* free software, that is much, much easier than *developing* free software. A government that cares for the welfare of its people would never ignore free software. Probably
[...]
I am sure mere representations to the Govt. of WB should bring in desired changes, and PIL or other action would only come last of all, if necessary at all.
Unfortunately, while there is considerable merit in reason why we need to use Free software, mere representations might not suffice.
M$ is not merely selling software, it is selling solutions i.e. software which serve a purpose. Some of their selling tactics could be a reasonable demonstration of how their software helped solve the given problem in the tender. And most importantly, how this software can be installed, used to solved the given problem and supported by either them (very unlikely) or their dealers.
In our case, representation might not be enough. A demonstration could be better, but again that doesn't help much. *Having* an organization come up and say that "we will install, solve the problem and give you support", is the answer.
After all, using Free Software is like the ultra-sensitive issue of caste-based reservation. There is an important social objective behind a policy of using Free Software. But unless the software actually goes ahead and solves the problem (and not merely trumpet that it can change the world and/or do anything), it will only hinder progress - in this case, egovernance.
The babus might not articulate this question explicitly - but their nagging doubts will always be "Ok. This is great software - technically and socially. But are you going to come and install it for us? Are you going to train our staff?Are you going to come and help us when we are stuck? Oh? Try Linux vendors, you say? Why dont they come up and apply in the tendering process then?". And we are back to the same problem. Guess who works best in the selling/pitching/marketing games in government tenders?
My point is - We need to encourage industry participation in the evangelising process. Presentations should be made by not only LUG people (who can articulate that Free software be given serious thought and preference), but also actual industry people who will negotiate contracts with the government. Regardless of how much you loath the commercial world, you might actually have to help them come up with convincing arguments/presentations to get the job done.
I believe any Linux evangelising is deficient unless it addresses three points at the same time:
Advocacy - Technical and most importantly, philosophical reasons to use Free software.
Reason: Without advocacy people use Free software for the wrong reasons (e.g. cost), and will move on when these reasons do not hold (e.g. [hypothetical] M$ coming up with a Windows version which cost Rs. 0, and charges Rs. 3000/year for updates.).
Industry support - People who can actually go ahead and help government and the rest of the industry use the software, working on a purely service model, of course, for a fee.
Reason: You cant force everybody to be a geek. They need to get their work done. Regardless of how much they feel for the cause.
Interoperability - Be vigilant, take action and ensure that users of Free software are not discriminated. Scream at companies and governments which incorporate proprietary software, technology and data into their policies and processes. e.g. forms/applications in Word format, IE only websites, windows only hardware, windows only software etc.
Reason: You cant make people give up everything and use Free software, and then shrug/rant when essential resources cannot be accessed. Keep making the world a better place while inviting people to it. :)
You miss out any one of the above, and you are only going to ensure that people desert the field in a very short time, most of the time vowing never to come back.
- Sandip
On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 23:04, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:
In our case, representation might not be enough. A demonstration could be better, but again that doesn't help much. *Having* an organization come up and say that "we will install, solve the problem and give you support", is the answer.
Yes, I think this is an issue. We have faced the same problem here, in Kerala. The IT@School programme was always asking for support. They talked to RedHat and SuSE and were not happy. Finally, some of us suggested creating a separate distribution for IT@School, which has been accepted. This will include not only the packages discussed in the text books, but also educational software that will help teachers. The CD is getting ready. We are planning a training for master trainers, who will go and teach another group of teachers. We have also promised limited support. This has helped to push Free Software into the programme.
The Government of Kerala also has taken some steps to build support for Free Software. An independent organisation was set up by the government for promoting free software, including development and support. Although set up by government order, it is an independent body and has an executive committee that consists of private individuals and a couple of government officials. This is yet to become really active, but should go a long distance in doing what Sandip is talking about. Perhaps, we can press for such efforts from other state governments. Maybe it would add to the weight of the argument if the Kerala organisation is seen to be successful.
From a different perspective, this kind of support should not be taken
as an excuse for going for proprietary software. If the government takes a policy decision that proprietary is bad for the state/country and only Free Software should be used, we will soon see a number of organisations coming up with support and solutions. Perhaps, some egovernance work may be slightly delayed, but that should not make much difference in the long run when the impact of opting for proprietary software would start becoming felt. However, it is very difficult to convince bureaucrats or politicians about this.
(hey!!!, who is cross posting?)
Sandip Bhattacharya said on Thu, Nov 25, 2004 at 11:04:55PM +0530,:
it is selling solutions i.e. software
Solutions, of the corrosive kind. They eat away your freedoms.
-
Mahesh T. Pai -
Rajkumar S -
Rakesh 'arky' Ambati -
Ramanraj K -
Sandip Bhattacharya -
Sriharsha Vedurmudi -
V. Sasi Kumar