Dear Rishi,
"WE" here stands for FSF evanglists who value FREEDOM as much as you do. I really wonder whether FREEDOM again means not trying to write good software. What you call FREEDOM for yourself is the hard work of countless Open Source guys towards a common goal - promoting Free software.
So you mean to say that if the software come for FREE I should not expect it to be good. What a foundation "WE" (FSF evangalists) are laying down for others to follow.
Let me remind you I am not talking about "you", the IT guy. I am talking about the end user for whom computers is a tool to do his work. And trust me he values "RICH USER EXPERIECE" more than getting a free software. IS THIS WHAT YOU CALL FREEDOM?
FREEDOM for who? You or the MASSES? I repeat lets move from "PHILOSOPHICAL MINORITY" to "MASS MAJORITY" and for masses your so called "SHALLOW" user experience matters.
Windows market share is a testimony to this SHALLOW concept.
I remind you again ... i am not decrying linux .... of FSF. I am myself a strong supporter and have followed linux from its nacence.
Anyways, its been great interacting with you .. no point in dragging this any further, i dont think we are going anywhere with this. Lets agree to disagree.
Regards, tarun
From: Rishi rishi@gangfam.com To: "Tarun Gaur" gaur_tarun@hotmail.com, anivar@linuxmail.org,fsf-friends@mm.gnu.org.in Subject: Freedom VS Rich User Experience Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 22:42:32 +0530
Hi Tarun,
Now, he is a live example of an END USER PERSPECTIVE on Linux Desktops.
Let
me remind you I am not talking of Linux as a Server.
I use Linux at home and office as a Desktop. Been doing that for the past 1 year now.... Linux Servers have been at the office and home since 1996. ;-)
Now I have a question for you ... are "Diversity" and "Flexibility" synonyms of "Complexity" and "Non-Rich User Experience"??
Sure they are. But the more crucial point I'm trying to make is the Value of Freedom which according to me, supercedes the more shallow concept of having a 'Rich User Experience'.....
This of course depends on the crux that the end-user values freedom.
From where I sit and all the friends at FSF, I'm sure we value freedom first and then "Rich User Experience"
So, when the competetion picks up it is the BUYERS market and you have
to
be very agile to pick up a market share. And we have to behave very responsibly and look at the world from customer's perspective. We have a big resposibility here. Remember we are not a market leaders but intend to
be.
You like it or dislike it Microsoft is still there on 94% of wold's desktops. You know why .. because they dont ignore the suggestions of
guys
like Ram Reddy.
That's the other issue.... who is 'we' ?
FSF Friends: Are a group of people that value freedom and wish to participate and help people spread the concept of free software. We're not working on becoming market leaders.
Red Hat / Mandrake / Suse: Are comercial organizations that value the concept of freedom and make software products / services available to the public at a price. They are working on becoming market leaders.
This is the angle that's different... There isn't software (product) to buy in the free software world. If at all there are services to be bought...
- With Free Software ... it's usually supported by the community who
provide support through newsgroups and e-mail .... such as the FSF Friends list.
- With non-Free Software ... it's usually supported by the hardware /
software vendor's that's making money on selling/installing the software product for the end-user. In the case of Windows and MS Office, hardware vendors in India typically (90%) install it for 'free' (piracy) so that they get to sell a computer...
In Mr. Reddy's case did he buy Mandrake with installation support? Or did he get the CDs from some guy?
Note: Windows without installation charges cost Rs. 5-8K per PC.
Mandrake or Redhat (Fedora) can be bought at much lower prices than 5K.
Please do not look at this as a Developer, try looking at it as a
business
man or an end user.
Sure... If he (Mr. Reddy) want's to install Linux he can pay someone (you) to do it. You could charge him Rs. 500-2000 to do the job.. I would if I were you.
We have have done a lot to reach here, lets not assume that we are the best, lets plug each and every hole one by one ... cause thats the only
way
we can turn from a philosophical minority to MASS Majority.
Here comes that 'we' thing again. ;-)
You need to figure out who 'we' is ....
Please do not take this note as personal, it is for every Linux
Evangalist
who thinks we are the best. If you still think so, please read the mail sent by Mr. Ram Reddy (and you can be sure that he is a responsible guy giving genuine opinion) once again.
His feedback, I'm sure is great... but it needs to be directed towards the commercial organization providing the Linux Distro "Mandrake" and not the FSF group of friends.
Lets continue to improve, to end the note .. I am going to Mr. Ram
Reddy's
place this weekend and be sure we will win one more guy for FSF !!
We're here to improve our friend ship and talk about freedom. We're, at least I am, even here to help you out with the installation if you get stuck... or probably point you in some direction to get help.
Good luck to you and Mr. Reddy. Do let us know how the installation of Mandrake goes.
Regards
Rishi
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On Wednesday 28 Apr 2004 11:20 pm, Tarun Gaur wrote:
Dear Rishi,
"WE" here stands for FSF evanglists who value FREEDOM as much as you do. I really wonder whether FREEDOM again means not trying to write good software. What you call FREEDOM for yourself is the hard work of countless Open Source guys towards a common goal - promoting Free software.
Hi Tarun,
You need to chill. No one is attacking you.
FSF-friends according to me is not a place to discuss if the "non rich user experience" provided by the Mandrake GNU/Linux distro.
Where did you even assume that was part of the deal? As reagards what FSF is committed to promote .... please read the following text... I've copied and pasted it from the FSF-India website.
============================================================= FSF India is a non-profit organisation committed to advocating, promoting and propagating the use and development of swatantra software in India. Our goal is to ensure the long term adoption of free software, and aim for the day when all software will be free. This includes educating people about software freedom and convincing them that it is the freedom that matters. We regard non-free software as a problem to be solved, not as a solution to any problem. =============================================================
If you or Mr. Reddy want the Mandrake distro to have a "Rich User Experience" please use the link below. http://www.mandrakesoft.com/company/contact/feedback
So you mean to say that if the software come for FREE I should not expect it to be good. What a foundation "WE" (FSF evangalists) are laying down for others to follow.
Again...if you are referring to the Mandrake Distro, refer to the link mentinoed above.
If not, get specific as to which particular free software you are talk about not being 'good' enough for Mr. Reddy. I'm sure there is a forum out there that would be happy to hear yours or Mr. Reddy's feedback on how it can be better.
Let me remind you I am not talking about "you", the IT guy. I am talking about the end user for whom computers is a tool to do his work. And trust me he values "RICH USER EXPERIECE" more than getting a free software. IS THIS WHAT YOU CALL FREEDOM?
Freedom in Free software is not about price. See the following link to understand what free software means. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
And thank you for finally making my point. He (Mr. Reddy) obviously values "rich user experience" more than "freedom".
What do you value more? "freedom" or "rich user experience"?
I hope you value freedom more than software that should have "rich user experience" ... If you do, great. Please try and talk Mr. Reddy into attending a speech of RMS so that he could possibly moved into considering valuing "freedom" more than "rich user experience".
For the time being you could download this Video of RMS as it's pretty good.
http://audio-video.gnu.org/video/rms-speech-curitiba.mpg
It's about 30 minutes and 55 MB in size.
This may help bring the focus on freedom instead of Rich User Experience.
I'd be happy to courier you and Mr. Reddy the CD if you like. Just give me your address. I think there is a copy of this video on this month's LFY mangazine too.
FREEDOM for who? You or the MASSES? I repeat lets move from "PHILOSOPHICAL MINORITY" to "MASS MAJORITY" and for masses your so called "SHALLOW" user experience matters.
Once again... please target the disappointments of user experiences of the software to the Mandrake Company and not FSF.
Windows market share is a testimony to this SHALLOW concept.
Sure, that's because lots of people have had no choice but to pay up huge dollars (or not) to use it. ;-)
I remind you again ... i am not decrying linux .... of FSF. I am myself a strong supporter and have followed linux from its nacence.
As I mentioned in my ealier mail, I was using what I called 'Linux' since 1996, but got to realize the funda of freedom only in 2001 after attending an RMS speech.
Have you ever attended one of those?
If not you should...
Anyways, its been great interacting with you .. no point in dragging this any further, i dont think we are going anywhere with this. Lets agree to disagree.
It's been great interacting with you too.... However, you keep wanting to make your point, which I'm still struggling and wanting to understand, but at the same time you want to end the discussion by 'agreeing to disagree'....
I truely hope to succeed in communicating this funda of freedom to you and Mr. Reddy.
Regards
Rishi
-
Rishi -
Tarun Gaur