-- Joseph Thomas thomasatps@gmail.com, 9447738369. ---------- From: *Praveen A* pravi.a@gmail.com Date: 2008/9/27 To: vivaravicharam@googlegroups.com Cc: ilug-tvm@googlegroups.com, smc-discuss@googlegroups.com 2008/9/26 JOBY JOHN jobyatps@gmail.com: Does that mean, a political party, CPI(M), organization is more important than a civil society organisation? Does that mean only a party organization needs to be respected? That is the exact problem we are talking about. When some one (who was not associated with the first edition) say it is the second edition of an event conducted by FSF India (along with other organizations), people believe it would be similar to the earlier event. But you have now stated it is not the same. If the event is not same as the first edition, how can you call it the second edition? Wow!! That was a good judgment of what the FSF has been doing all these years !!! You want us to believe that? A statement from someone who does not even know who organized the first edition in Hyderabad. But taking over the legacy of first national conference from FSF. If you believe taking over the ownership of second edition of an event organized by FSF India without discussing with them is not conflict, then I will have to agree with you. We are not contesting the fact that the event is going to promote Free Software. What we have a problem with is hijacking the legacy and name of first national conference on Free Software __WITHOUT__ discussing with the organisers of the first nationa conference. This has led people to believe there is something else is going on behind the scenes and we are asking for clarity. If it was announced as First National Conference organised by 'so and so' organisations at Kochi, it would not have been a problem. So I would suggest you to discuss with the organisers of the first national conference and ask them if they are ok with using their legacy. Or remove the "second" part from the name and have it as your first conference. -- ---------- From: *JOBY JOHN* jobyatps@gmail.com Date: 2008/9/28 To: ilug-tvm@googlegroups.com, smc-discuss@googlegroups.com, vivaravicharam@googlegroups.com James Mathew asked : What made you think that the 1st national conference was not an annual event of FSF India? thomas joseph thomasatps@gmail.com says : I am not undermining and under estimating the great FSF organisation by assuming that it was inactive during the period from 2000 to 2007 to the extend to hold its annual in Hyderabad in 2007. James Mathew said : "..which is not the activity undertaken by FSF." Again how did you know? Did you ask somebody from FSF India? thomas joseph thomasatps@gmail.com says : What is done by Hyderabad organisers has not been done earlier by FSF, mobilising activists from all over India. For knowing that one need not ask somebody at FSF India. All are watching and understanding what is FSF India. James Mathew said : Please refer to this link. http://web.archive.org/web/20071216052848/http://nationalconvention.swecha.o... The organizers are clearly listed. I think this is to be given more weight than a quick mail from Arun. The point i'm trying to stress is that you didn't show the courtesy to contact/consult any of the initial organizers. Had that been done, we could have all worked together for spreading this philosophy of FS, avoiding all this confusion. thomas joseph thomasatps@gmail.com says ; The website of swecha website lists FSF India as one of the organisers or even the main organiser. Yes, they may have their own assessment of the assistance obtained from FSF or the role played by it. Can you please quote any FSF India document to show that it held its first or any subsequent annual in Hyderabad during March .2007. Again, the question of ethics and rights are being raised. Why FSF India should have this sort of Identity crisis ? By such questions and mails from those in FSF India confusion is created among the supporters and activists. Better FSF India shed its over emphasis on its rights. The emphasis on its right, in effect, mean the right to contain, restrict and prevent advancement of the Free Software movement. FSF is a respectable organisation and its name and fame shall not be destroyed by such stand taken by FSF India, please. On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 10:41 AM, James Mathew james@gnu.org.in wrote: > To: thomas joseph thomasatps@gmail.com > What made you think that the 1st national conference was not an annual > event of FSF India?"..which is not the activity undertaken by FSF." Again > how did you > know? Did you ask somebody from FSF India?Please refer to this link. > > http://web.archive.org/web/20071216052848/http://nationalconvention.swecha.o... > > The organizers are clearly listed. I think this is to be given more > weight than a quick mail from Arun. > > The point i'm trying to stress is that you didn't show the courtesy to > contact/consult any of the initial organizers. Had that been done, we > could have all worked together for spreading this philosophy of FS, > avoiding all this confusion. ---------- From: *JOBY JOHN* jobyatps@gmail.com Date: Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 4:18 PM To: vivaravicharam@googlegroups.com Cc: ilug-tvm@googlegroups.com, smc-discuss@googlegroups.com vivaravicharam said : praveen said : Vivaravicharam says : The above words doesnot give any such idea that political party is more important than a civil society organisation. The point raised in that respect is that coimbatore conference of CPI(M) was its annual, which can only further be followed up by that party alone. But the Hyderabad conference is not the annual of FSF India, it is an event conducted by the Hyderabad activists, efforts being made to enlist the participation of activists from all over the country. Had it been the annual of FSF, what we are doing now in Kochi, ie . Naming it as 2nd conference is absolutely wrong. But to us the Hyderabad even was not the annual of FSF. vivaravicharam said : praveen said : Vivaravicharam says : Holding conference in series doesnot mean to repeat what is done earlier. The subsequent events will be much advanced with more participation and more results. The content discussed also will vary. Again, the point is Hyderabad event is, in praveens own term, organised by civil society. FSF is only one of the organisation representing a section of civil society. No organisation can claim to be whole and sole representative of civil society. Kochi conference also is being organised by representative of civil society, without any tall claim of representing all, but in any case representing vast majority. vivaravicharam said : praveen said : The comment made by vivaravicharam earlier is justified by the fact that FSF has not organised any such event other than may be in Trivandrum all through he period of 2000 (Year of institution of FSF India) and 2007, the year of Hyderabad conference. This is why it is commented that FSF India has not been organising conferences in different parts of India with the aim of expanding the movement. They in FSF support, serve, offer consultancy and what ever they do to those who approach them. The vast majority of Indians are still unaware of the very issue of Software Freedom. FSF India, instead of disputing the rights of others to organise a conference or do something for the expansion of the movement, shall support all such activities going on in the country, as it has done to Hyderabad community. vivaravicharam said : praveen said : Vivaravicharam says : We both hold the same point. Either of us is correct. To me Hyderabad event is conducted by Free Software Activits of Hyderabad (AP) with the support of FSF India. It was not initiated, called for, or organised at the initiative of FSF India. On the contrary it was initiated, called for, support of FSF India sought for and organised by Hyderabad Activists including FSF members. Can any body show any of the FSF India document (I dont mean the site and documents of Hyderabad event ) to show that FSF India organised the Hyderabad event ? vivaravicharam said : praveen said : Vivaravicharam says : Is Praveen arguing that Hyderabad event was the first national conference of FSF India ? Just reconsider it. We have no claims. We only do what we felt correct. The questions, doubts, confusion etc were created by others who questions the right to hold the conference and name it the 2nd. We are not claiming the legacy of any body. We have only named our conference 2nd to that of Hyderabad conference only, because that was the first conference that was organised by activists of any city with earnest effort to organise participation from all over the country, irrespective of the success/failure aspect. Efforts were made. They were successful to a great extend despite the limitations of being the first one. vivaravicharam said : praveen said : Vivaravicharam says : So far, all are arguing for FSF India and contesting the right of Kochi organisers to name it as 2nd conference. No body talks on behalf of Hyderabad University, SWECHA and the FREEDOM activits of Hyderabad who is not connected with FSF activities and even Free Software Activities. Organisers of Kochi conference are not claiming the owner ship of even this Kochi conference, leave alone Hyderabad one. Software freedom activists shall, at aleast, know the difference between ownership and right to ownership. Here, we don't claim any right to ownership. No claim of owner ship even. We are only serving the cause of FSF. But FSF India is annoyed, worried and agrieved of their right to ownership (!). We give the ownership right of Kochi conference to the civil society, which belongs to FSF as well. But we shall not surrender our right to our duty, the duty to work for FREEDOM of every body, not only that of software, but knowledge and civil in general. Let FSF claim the right of ownership (!) of this conference as well (!) by supporting it as they have done (?) in Hyderabad. Why creating confusion among the activits ? for whom ? And For what ? --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ ---------- From: *Praveen A* pravi.a@gmail.com Date: 2008/9/29 To: vivaravicharam@googlegroups.com Cc: ilug-tvm@googlegroups.com, smc-discuss@googlegroups.com 2008/9/28 JOBY JOHN jobyatps@gmail.com: The annual was just an example. It does not mean that only annuals conducted by an organization needs to be respected by others trying to conduct sequels. It is just a strawman argument http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_argument That is the problem here. Everyone who participated in the first event will think it is similar to the first event. Also people will associate the event to the ideas and policies of the first event. Now when some other party claims it is the second edition, we can only hope it would have the same policy, especially when the first organizers are not involved? I did not say this. What I said was "Does that mean, a political "Civil society" and "a civil society organisation" is not the same. ഇതു് ആടും ആട്ടിന്‍കാട്ടവും ഒന്നാണെന്നു് പറയുന്നതു് പോലെയാണു്. another strawman argument I could give just a few names of the conferences that FSF has done like * http://gplv3.gnu.org.in/ International conference on GPLv3 (now don't tell me international conferences don't count :-) ) * http://fsfs.hipatia.net/ Free Software, Free Society conference (again international) I'm amazed at the enthusiasm you are showing to judge the activities of FSF India when you don't even seem to be aware of the event happened in Thiruvananthapuram 3 years back. I don't have to continue batting for FSF India, since the community knows how much it has contributed to promoting Free Software in India. This is news to me !! Thanks to enlightening me. I agree with this whole heartedly. But the way to do is not by undermining the existing community by hijacking their legacy but by joining hands with them. As far as I know the event is initiated and organised by one of the members of board of director of FSF India (he is also part of Swetcha). Wouldn't the active participation and leadership of Kiran Chandra won't count as FSF India participation? I answered it already. We did not contest the right to hold a conference, on the contrary we are welcoming it. We are only contesting the name in a positive spirit to remove any confusions arriving from the naming. This is seriously an insult to the many active members of the Free Software community who work tirelessly to promote the idea of Software Freedom from a person who is arrogant to acknowledge the contributions of the community and want to take credit for others work. There is many conferences happening all over India at every time of the year organised by different Free Software communities. FOSS.IN, Freed, GNUnify, FOSS Meet@NITC, Mukt.in to name a few. We have not gone and contested with them for credits or asked them to change names. With the due respect for your duty to promote the Freedom only, we are asking you to correct a wrong step. Rights also comes with responsibility. We are not asking you to give ownership to FSF here, but to release the ownership of the first conference you have assumed without consulting with FSF India. These are the questions I have to ask. Why was FSF India not contacted when FSF India was the organiser of the the first conference? Why are you discrediting the contributions of the Free Software community by claiming there is only one conference have happened till now? -- ---------- From: *JOBY JOHN* jobyatps@gmail.com Date: 2008/9/29 To: smc-discuss@googlegroups.com, ilug-tvm@googlegroups.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Anilkumar KV anilankv@gmail.com Date: Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 8:47 AM Subject: [Vivara] Re: [ilug-tvm] Re: [Vivara] Re: [smc-discuss] Re: Fwd: [ATPS] Website inaugurated To: vivaravicharam@googlegroups.com Praveen, James and all, The first conference was organised by a group of free software activists in Andra. They wanted FSF-India be a part of it. The FSF-India does not shown any interest in that event. However after finalising the program, the secretary of FSF-India put an email informing FSF-friends that some free software activists in Andra is conducting such an event, and FSF-India supports it. No other official initiatives were known to be taken by FSF-India for conducting Hyderabad event. If I miss anything as such please point it out. Yes here question is ethical one. How can FSF-India claimed to be organisers of an a event for which they just extended its support. The organisers of Kochi event, have started their effort after consulting with the real organisers of Hyderabad event. In fact the name of the event itself was suggested by them and not decided by Kochi organisers by themselves. Hence in here the legacy is a natural right and not just a claim. Before the reception committee formation, the organisers of Kochi event has asked support from FSF-India secretary, However the response was not in favour. Even now, it is not late for FSF-India to extend the support for this event. And I feel the Kochi organisers are even ready to accept FSF-India as organisers of the second conference The FSF-India directors and secretary are aware of these discussions going on here. Let them respond. - Anil ---------- From: *Praveen A* pravi.a@gmail.com Date: 2008/9/29 To: സ്വതന്ത്ര മലയാളം കമ്പ്യൂട്ടിങ്ങ് smc-discuss@googlegroups.com, ilug-tvm@googlegroups.com forwarding reply to an earlier discussion. Anil, Kiran Chandra's active role in organising the event will not count? Or are you claiming Kiran Chandra did not take leadership in organising the event? As pointed above, I'm asking about the role of Kiran Chandra in organising the event. Again repeat. As far as I know Kiran Chandra was actively involved in the organising of the event. I'm amazed at the tone of the organizers of this event in discredit the FSF India's role of supporting the Free Software community for such a long time and also discrediting the role played by many individuals in the Free Software community by claiming the only effort to promote Free Software happened was last year in Hyderabad. Now the concerns are getting even beiiger about the motives of the organisers about this event. Why would they not consult with the community? Why would they discredit Free Software community's efforts for such a long time? Why would they be blind to so many of the Free Software conferences that has happened and happening all over the country? I would like to know who suggested not to involve the orginal organisers and who suggested the name? This is the whole problem. Free Software community does not work this way. This is like telling Linus Torvalds that he can join hacking the Linux kernel by a newbie without any clue about the Linux kernel. I'm expressing the concerns of the Free Software community in a manner that is common in the community. We always raise our objections in public mailing lists. -- -- Any responsible politician should be encouraging a home grown Free Software industry because it creates the basis for future jobs. Learning Windows is like learning to eat every meal at McDonalds.