SUCH views only further the ideology of proprietorial software, while confusing the subject and furthering the man-works-for-money-alone idea. It also flies in the face of thousands of excellent programmers chosing the GPL as their licence of choice. Perhaps someone needs to be countering this. FN
"Fred" == Frederick Noronha <(FN)" fred@bytesforall.org> writes:
Fred> SUCH views only further the ideology of proprietorial Fred> software, while confusing the subject and furthering the Fred> man-works-for-money-alone idea. It also flies in the face of Fred> thousands of excellent programmers chosing the GPL as their Fred> licence of choice. Perhaps someone needs to be countering Fred> this. FN
>> --__--__-- >> >> Message: 1 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 23:07:00 -0800 (PST) From: >> Sukrit D sd_root@yahoo.com To: little_league@yahoogroups.com >> Cc: Kanhaiya Dalmia dalmiag@vsnl.net, Chennai ILUG >> ilugc@aero.iitm.ernet.in Subject: [Ilugc] Is the GPL >> completely misunderstood? >> >> Is the GPL completely misunderstood? >> >> What is the GPL? >> >> [snip]
For my rejoinder, see: http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@wpaa.org/msg04611.html
If anyone wants to tell me about the name I use for the operating system, please do so in private mail so I can safely consign your messages to /dev/null. Intelligent responses, of course, would always be welcome.
Regards,
-- Raju
Your response makes some good points--however, in order to be a true friend of the FSF, you should not call the whole system "Linux".
"RMS" == Richard Stallman rms@gnu.org writes:
RMS> Your response makes some good points--however, in order to be RMS> a true friend of the FSF, you should not call the whole RMS> system "Linux".
Heretical as it may sound, I happen to believe that you can support freedom in software and GNU without nitpicking over nomenclature. I have been calling the OS Linux since I first used it in 1992, and shall continue to do so. I have also been a strong believer in and advocate of software freedom since I got my first GNU tape in 1988, and I still see no compelling reasons to associate a name with a concept.
Richard, I was (and, as would be obvious from the message you refer to, still am) deeply influenced by your original writings on why software should be free, the GNU Manifesto, etc. They changed the way I viewed software and, indirectly, the world. However since you bring it up repeatedly, I do believe that this insistence on the name of the OS is creating large amounts of mindless militant-ism, which is doing neither Linux nor the free software movement any good.
If the definition of being a true friend of the FSF is to `toe the party line' wrt the name of the OS, then I am definitely not a friend of the FSF. On the other hand, if being a `true friend' of the FSF means to write free software, to believe in free software, to promote free software and to advocate free software then I am one.
You decide which definition is more valid.
Regards,
-- Raju
It is certainly possible to advocate freedom in software and call the system "Linux". I believe that you do. It is also possible to contribute to development of the GNU system in specific ways while calling the system "Linux". It could well be that you have. But it is impossible to be a true supporter of the GNU Project, or a friend of the FSF, while calling our work by a name that attributes it to someone else. That is treating us very badly.
The basic ethical question of the software field is whether your software is free is; that is the question of how you treat the general public. How you treat the FSF and the GNU Project is a lesser question--but it does matter to us. So even while we recognize that you sincerely support the cause of free software, we cannot accept in a list under FSF auspices your practice of attributing our system to someone else.
"RMS" == Richard Stallman rms@gnu.org writes:
RMS> It is certainly possible to advocate freedom in software and RMS> call the system "Linux". I believe that you do. It is also RMS> possible to contribute to development of the GNU system in RMS> specific ways while calling the system "Linux". It could RMS> well be that you have. But it is impossible to be a true RMS> supporter of the GNU Project, or a friend of the FSF, while RMS> calling our work by a name that attributes it to someone RMS> else. That is treating us very badly.
RMS> The basic ethical question of the software field is whether RMS> your software is free is; that is the question of how you RMS> treat the general public. How you treat the FSF and the GNU RMS> Project is a lesser question--but it does matter to us. So RMS> even while we recognize that you sincerely support the cause RMS> of free software, we cannot accept in a list under FSF RMS> auspices your practice of attributing our system to someone RMS> else.
Firstly there is the whole question of whether Linux is primarily the work of the GNU project or the FSF. Most people, including those who are aware of the history of Linux and GNU prefer to attribute Linux to Linus Torvalds. It is only a handful of people in the FSF who claim that Linus actually wrote the kernel for the GNU operating system and that hence the OS must be called GNU/Linux.
Even if we leave the origin of Linux aside for a moment we are faced with the question of whether mindlessly forcing people to call the operating system GNU/Linux is the right way to spread the message of free software. You have effectively told me that in order to be able to contribute to this list I must conform to your nomenclature. I don't know if this is promoting freedom in any way. Personally I believe not, though that is just an opinion, just like so many others floating around.
I very much doubt if forcing the OS to be called by a specific name is the way to spread the message of any kind of freedom. I have myself seen the effect that this misguided passion for defining the name of the OS has had on the free software community. There have been innumerable cases of GNU/FSF advocates managing to alienate precisely those developers who have significantly contributed to free software, purely because of vocal and occasionally vituperative differences of opinion over the name of the OS.
And do recognise that it's just an opinion: some people claim that Linux is the GNU OS, some claim that it's Linus' OS, and there is no one single point of view on this matter that has `The Truth' written on it for all to see.
Freedom on the other hand is not a matter of opinion. Freedom is absolute, unshakeable and unarguable. Which is why I prefer to stick to the idea of freedom without bothering much about trivial issues related to names and opinions.
The only thing I can expect from this list now is being barred from posting, or being forcibly unsubscribed. If that happens, I would only be able to conclude that debate and questioning of some ideas is banned because of their origins -- a conditional freedom, if such a thing exists, since I know of no other forum where the FSF is willing to discuss and debate its stance on the name Linux vs GNU/Linux.
Regards,
-- Raju
I totally agree with Raju, this issue alienates more people, damaging the spread of free(dom) software movement.
Raman.P
________________________________________________________________________ Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, Yahoo! TV. visit http://in.tv.yahoo.com
to discuss and debate its stance on the name Linux vs GNU/Linux.
We have spent lot of time on this issue. Time to kill the thread.
I would like to point out that we have another list called fsf-discuss for these kinds of topics. This list (fsf-friends) is for constructive action and discussions relating to Free Software Movement in India. Advocating against the GNU policies is not allowed in this list.
Thanks,
List Admin
On Wed, Apr 09, 2003 at 08:57:32AM +0530, Arun M wrote:
Advocating against the GNU policies is not allowed in this list.
Not only on this list, on any other FSF mailing list, it should not be allowed. It is better that such people, who don't believe in FSF ideologies, leave the FSF mailing lists.
Regards
--- "Dileep M. Kumar" dileep@gmx.net wrote: > On Wed, Apr 09, 2003 at 08:57:32AM +0530, Arun M
I think this list is fsf-FRIENDS. Friends need not be members of Board to toe official line.
Raman.P
________________________________________________________________________ Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, Yahoo! TV. visit http://in.tv.yahoo.com
It would appear that GNU and FSF have not got their due recognition in the success of Linux. It is not fair. Also, one would think that due recognistion is part of rewards that a contributor to free software movement gets.
It is possible that part of the problem is absence of attractive name to replace Linux. GNU/Linux is too contrived. The name 'Linux' sounds good. Finding an attractive name that recognizes GNU/FSF contribution may be helpful.
- Pankaj Agrawal
On Tue, 8 Apr 2003, Richard Stallman wrote:
Freedom is what all of us are fighting for.. And hence I think that I have the freedom to call it what I want.. And i prefer to call it Linux.. Someone forcing me to call it GNU/Linux would be taking away my freedom.. And thats against the gnu philosophy
Rgds Ashutosh
--- Pankaj Agrawal agrawal@iopb.res.in wrote:
__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com
On Tue, Apr 08, 2003 at 07:35:39AM +0530, Raju Mathur wrote:
The issue is not to define who is a friend of FSF and who is not. (RMS's response unfortunately does suggest this implication though.) This is not the disagreement at all. The disagreement as I understand is because you see no compelling reason to associate a name with a concept. [You said: "I still see no compelling reasons to associate a name with a concept."]
Logically speaking, it is possible to separate a name with a concept. On that ground you do have a point. But history is not written on the basis of logical possibilities but actualities. Credits are not given to a movement on the basis of logical possibilities. Also, and more important FSF is not fighting for gaining logical freedom, but practical and actual freedom.
Can you tell us, as a person who genuinely beleive in software freedom, what is the compeelling non-logical reason for not associating software freedom with GNU?
I dont think you believe that GNU has not contributed enough. You may be thinking it is not necessary, but we think it is necessary (for non-logical reasons).
To further my argument that names are important and do carry with them a lot of meaning (and weight) may I seek the following clarification from you.
You may think that names do not matter for a movement. I think names, labels are very important, because names trigger a meaning in one's mind. Another reason why your stand is not reasonable is because, while you enjoy your (logical) freedom of dissociating a name from the concept of software freedom, you are in actual practice enjoying the practice of associating the concept of software freedom and the name `Linux'. Do you have a compelling non-logical reason for doing this?
Nagarjuna
"NG" == Nagarjuna G nagarjun@hbcse.tifr.res.in writes:
NG> On Tue, Apr 08, 2003 at 07:35:39AM +0530, Raju Mathur wrote: >> >>>>> "RMS" == Richard Stallman rms@gnu.org writes: >> RMS> Your response makes some good points--however, in order to be RMS> a true friend of the FSF, you should not call the whole RMS> system "Linux". >> Heretical as it may sound, I happen to believe that you can >> support freedom in software and GNU without nitpicking over >> nomenclature. I have been calling the OS Linux since I first >> used it in 1992, and shall continue to do so. I have also been >> a strong believer in and advocate of software freedom since I >> got my first GNU tape in 1988, and I still see no compelling >> reasons to associate a name with a concept. >> >> Richard, I was (and, as would be obvious from the message you >> refer to, still am) deeply influenced by your original writings >> on why software should be free, the GNU Manifesto, etc. They >> changed the way I viewed software and, indirectly, the world. >> However since you bring it up repeatedly, I do believe that >> this insistence on the name of the OS is creating large amounts >> of mindless militant-ism, which is doing neither Linux nor the >> free software movement any good. >> >> If the definition of being a true friend of the FSF is to `toe >> the party line' wrt the name of the OS, then I am definitely >> not a friend of the FSF. On the other hand, if being a `true >> friend' of the FSF means to write free software, to believe in >> free software, to promote free software and to advocate free >> software then I am one.
NG> The issue is not to define who is a friend of FSF and who is NG> not. (RMS's response unfortunately does suggest this NG> implication though.) This is not the disagreement at all. The NG> disagreement as I understand is because you see no compelling NG> reason to associate a name with a concept. [You said: "I NG> still see no compelling reasons to associate a name with a NG> concept."]
NG> Logically speaking, it is possible to separate a name with a NG> concept. On that ground you do have a point. But history is NG> not written on the basis of logical possibilities but NG> actualities. Credits are not given to a movement on the basis NG> of logical possibilities. Also, and more important FSF is not NG> fighting for gaining logical freedom, but practical and actual NG> freedom.
NG> Can you tell us, as a person who genuinely beleive in software NG> freedom, what is the compeelling non-logical reason for not NG> associating software freedom with GNU?
I would happily call the OS GNU/Linux if it weren't for two underlying assumptions:
1. That calling the OS GNU/Linux is helping spread the message of freedom. In my opinion (which is much more valuable to me that anyone else's) it is having precisely the opposite effect.
2. That calling the OS GNU/Linux is a prerequisite for being able to have a rational and reasonable discussion in this (or any FSF-sponsored) forum.
I strongly believe in freedom, including my freedom to call the OS Linux and yours to call it GNU/Linux. Do not try to take that freedom away from me, in however restricted a context.
For instance, I founded the India Linux Users Group, Delhi (ILUG-Delhi). We don't call ourselves the India GNU/Linux Users Group, but we don't force people to call the OS either Linux or GNU/Linux. It is a matter of personal choice. We prefer to spread the message of freedom in other, perhaps more effective, ways.
NG> [snip]
Regards,
-- Raju
On Tue, Apr 08, 2003 at 01:45:12PM +0530, Raju Mathur wrote:
I dont agree. Infact ever since I called the system GNU/Linux I managed to invoke more interest in GNU philosophy and spread the message that freedom matters more effectively. Many people began connecting the GNU to Linux in that way.
May I question your assumption: Calling the OS Linux will or helping spread the message of freedom.
This I guess you dont believe. Linus never said he is doing what he is doing it because he loves freedom. If Linus ever preached software freedom then the semantics of the term `Linux' would have had the freedom connotation. The fact is that it had no such connotation. On the other hand the connotation of hacking is closely associated with `Linux'. But every hacker is not a freedom lover. Then how do you think calling exclusively Linux will spread the message better than linking it with GNU. Linking with GNU undoubtedly spreads the message of freedom.
This is not a prerequisite. That is why whenever people dont call the system GNU/Linux, we make an appeal. Aren't we reasanable to make this appeal, again and again. We never blocked anyone for participating in the discussions when they called the system Linux. There are many people who understand the reasons and they do call the system GNU/Linux, not to satisfy us, but after getting convinced. Dont you think in the course of this deliberation the person concerned read more about the free software philosophy than before. Several of them told us that they never looked at the ideological aspect before we told them. It was an occassion of eye opener fo them.
You know that freedom as it is used in the context is defined by the four freedoms. Nothing more nothing less. The above freedom that you are talking about is not a software freedom. This absolute freedom should not be confused with software freedom.
The reason why it concerns us is because you are not an agnostic on this issue, you are actually preaching the other usage. Deciding to call the users group by excluding GNU is not a matter of personal choice. It is a political stand that your group took. My intellect cannot understand how this exclusion helps propogate freedom.
You have failed to explain how calling the system Linux alone promotes freedom.
Nagarjuna
In general, you're free to call the system "Linux" if you want to. You can even do so in public. That's treating us unfairly, but you are free to treat us unfairly if you insist. We won't try to stop you, we will only say it is wrong. See http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#whynotsue.
However, this list isn't a general public forum for people of all views. It was set up by the FSF for discussion among people who support it about how to carry out its work. If you firmly disagree with an important FSF decision, you have a right to your views--but you shouldn't use this list to argue against or defy our policies. We have another forum for that sort of discussion--the newsgroup gnu.misc.discuss. Please take it there, not here.
"RMS" == Richard Stallman rms@gnu.org writes:
RMS> [snip]
RMS> However, this list isn't a general public forum for people of RMS> all views. It was set up by the FSF for discussion among RMS> people who support it about how to carry out its work. If RMS> you firmly disagree with an important FSF decision, you have RMS> a right to your views--but you shouldn't use this list to RMS> argue against or defy our policies. We have another forum RMS> for that sort of discussion--the newsgroup gnu.misc.discuss. RMS> Please take it there, not here.
Richard, I was the one who specifically stated in my original message (Message-ID: 16008.29099.61020.356901@mail.linux-delhi.org):
<quote> If anyone wants to tell me about the name I use for the operating system, please do so in private mail </quote>
I did NOT use the term Linux in that message. I did NOT question any policies in that message. Anyone who wanted to discuss my usage of a term could have safely sent me a private message and spared the list this whole pointless thread.
By electing to make a response to that quote on this list you automatically extended the mandate of the list to include policy discussions.
</nitpick>
Regards,
-- Raju
You quoted yourself as saying
<quote> If anyone wants to tell me about the name I use for the operating system, please do so in private mail </quote>
but you quoted yourself out of context. Here's the entire sentence from your previous message:
If anyone wants to tell me about the name I use for the operating system, please do so in private mail so I can safely consign your messages to /dev/null.
That wasn't questioning our policies--it was spitting on them. Its attitude towards the FSF was hostile and bullying. That is misuse of a list meant for the FSF's friends.
It is necessary to state this on the list, because silence about the matter could be interpreted as acquiescence.
Please stop misusing this list.
Perhaps we should be devoting more effort to see that the 'corrupt practices' of State Governments are thoroughly exposed.
Awarding huge software contracts to proprietary establishments are akin to killing the poorest sections of the people, a crime no less in its dimension than what is happening at Iraq. If those killed or getting maimed in action there, can take refuge in understanding the issue as a consequence of a direct tangible attack, similar ones that take place in airconditioned parlours here, often go unnoticed, with the effect more devastating.
Our bureaucracy is so happy in leading a 'stable married life' with the proprietary establishments, that 'common people' appear to be 'dirt in the eyeball', something that needs to be wiped out for them to live in 'perfect harmony'.
Earlier it had been GIM (Global Investors Meet), wherein the bureaucracy wanted the natural resources to be awarded in a golden platter to the foreign merceniaries. When there was a public outcry, they got ashamed and planned more seriously, coming out with the latest option, wherein they found out that similar end results could even be achieved without inviting the slightest of public attention.
I wonder what our forefathers, who had striven hard in their lifetime to drive away the greedy and power hungry foreigners, would have had to say, after seeing the latest attempts of the Indian Bureaucracy, who now use all their 'putrid brains' in seeing to it that, the best of resources, human natural or otherwise, are reserved for the same greedy foreigners.
CK Raju
CK Raju writes:
Perhaps we should be devoting more effort to see that the 'corrupt practices' of State Governments are thoroughly exposed.
I agree completely with your views. Its only the corruption that blurs every party's underlying ideologies. Every political party by itself, is beautiful in its own way, its only the change in their track from idealism, owing to the 'dreams of comfort' that corruption offers them, they go out-of-track.
We definitely have to act against this. What are we going to do?
-Suraj
On Thu, Apr 10, 2003 at 09:01:21AM +0530, Suraj Kumar wrote:
We definitely have to act against this. What are we going to do?
Any such action against these immoral political people will be a waste of time IMHO. Media (for eg. Surya TV) had clearly protested against govt. policies towards IBM and Microsoft several times. Both ruling and opposition parties have only one motto, their own survival.
Fools are people who vote for these criminals.
Regards
Two developments vis-a-vis Free Software in Kerala:
* TUG India and Technopark sign MoU on TeX training for employment
Technopark, Trivandrum, and TUG India (the Indian TeX Users' Group) signed an MoU on 7th Apri l2003 for a joint programme where the two organizations are to conduct training on Text Processing using the popular Free Software, TeX. TeX, written by Donald Knuth, a Stanford Professor, forms the core of a suite of Free Software for high-end text processing and prepress work.
Further, after the training is completed, the trainees will be assisted in constituting themselves into Virtual Micro-Enterprises (VMEs) for self employment. Other kinds of support (incubation, small-scale venture capital) will also be made available for these VMEs through Technopark's support facilities.
The MoU was signed between Rajiv Vasudevan (outgoing CEO, Technopark), NR Mahalingam (CEO Designate, Technopark) and Satish Babu (Secretary, TUG India).
* Kerala PWD to go for Free Software platform
The Public Works Deparment of the GoK is to adopt GNU/Linux as its platform for its enterprise portal. The portal, funded by the World Bank under the Kerala State Tranportation Project, will use PHP and Oracle on GNU/Linux to provide a variety of services for PWD's internal use.
Satish Babu
-- sb@inapp.com
Earlier reports indicated that the cost of maintaining the administrative machinery of the State (the offices and its staff) came close to Rs 5 billion. What is perplexing is the view taken by the (brainless) bureaucrats, that they are ready with an alternate 'system', wherein even if Rs 5 billion per annum (taking the renewal fees of software licenses into consideration), is given away to proprietary software establishments, the Government can still be run, in a much better way.
Words and ideas fail us in attempting a way out to deal with such a 'corrupt bureaucracy' which is starved of any innovations that can do good to humanity.
If Arundhati Roy lamented that Chief Minister's hands are soaked in blood, perhaps we can all say that his bureaucracy's 'minds and thoughts are full of blood', matching the leader in thought and deed. Dealing with such an evil and vicious hierarchy should be a great challenge, where I fear, even if a thousand Stallmans ever emerged, they would still be beaten and sunk into oblivion.
Someone advised me the other day, that spending time in learning to live with such a condition, would be a much better option, than attempting to challenge or change the views of the 'bureaucracy'. It is the 'rottest', Kerala has ever seen or witnessed, a 'burden' for the toiling lot, and a 'shame' for the millions who still aspires to see a prosperous State.
CK Raju
On Tue, Apr 08, 2003 at 01:03:30PM +0530, Nagarjuna G. wrote:
Quoting Raju's mail at LIH :
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 10:43:10AM +0530, Raju Mathur wrote:
Dileep> No Raju, we have to educate the people why we should call Dileep> the OS GNU/Linux. I think LIH is the right place since Dileep> many people on LIH may not read LIG. I request all Dileep> members to read http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html
That is a very narrow view: you are saying that some subset of people prefer to call the OS GNU/Linux and are bent on enforcing the use of that name in every context. No one has to educate anyone else on anything. No one was handed a God-given right to educate the rest of the world. Some people prefer to call the OS Linux and some to call it GNU/Linux. I do not take exception to your calling the OS GNU/Linux; please give me and the rest of the list members the equivalent freedom to call it Linux and let the matter drop.
I could come out with dozens of arguments why the OS should NOT be called GNU/Linux, but I don't think that's important here. What IS important is the freedom of choice that each list member has to make up his or her own mind.
If your objective in being on the list is promoting the name GNU/Linux, I suggest you are in the wrong place. This is not the gnu-india-help mailing list. Nor is it the fsf-india-help mailing list or the gnu-linux-india-help mailing list. This is the linux-india-help mailing list, and it's here to help people with using Linux, irrespective of what they choose to call it.
Dileep> At least we don't receive mails like "I have installed Dileep> Linux 8.0 on my box"
No one in the world with half a clue would claim that Linux 8.0 exists. On the other hand, many clueful people (me included) do claim that an OS called Linux exists, and it does not need to be renamed at the whim of a handful of people. If you don't agree, point it out to me in private e-mail, which I will feel free to read or ignore. Please don't clutter up the list with your terminology issues.
Regards,
-- Raju
PS: There are such clueless people in LIH who say "Linux 8.0" for some distros ver 8.0
I could come out with dozens of arguments why the OS should NOT be called GNU/Linux,
Is it?
but I don't think that's important here.
It is important here. Let's share your knowledge and hear about your arguments. I think they can be interesting.
What IS important is the freedom of choice that each list member has to make
up his or her own mind.
Arko
It is generally a bad idea for a major leader to respond to a rant like this. Such a response just lends more importance to the rant.
However, it can't hurt for other people to try to write responses. If you want to do that, here are a few tips:
* Don't organize the response as a series of quotations and comments. Instead, write a single unified article. Quote from the other article only when it serves your purpose.
* Don't try to argue with every little point. Pick two or three important points and write about them.
* Attack the position stated in the article, not the writer.