On Monday 16 July 2007 22:11:52 ஆமாச்சு wrote:
On Monday 16 July 2007 18:01:58 Anivar Aravind wrote: Nagarjuna G. wrote: I agree that these are not going to be effective enough, but these are part of the campaign. Besides this will help us to get all our arguments together. This will help each of our colleagues to use them whenever they speak. we have to take the first steps some where.
If you have another way of conducting a campaign please let me know.
Press Release is an important starting point. It is a position statement on Problem. lets do it. I am also suggesting about drafting a signature campaign that focuses on Why we are opposing the It and what we. Free Software Community is suggesting for Schooling.
these are destructive way of opposing. some one should do this.. no doubt...
the ideal solution would be to start thinking in line of a free software university.. i named one as "gnu"kulam.. ;-) in line of our traditional gurukulam system ;-)
which will be more constructive...
gnukulam - copyleft - amachu 2007 ;-)
have been reading with interest everyon'es response on the FSF mailing list on how to tackle the microsoft university challenge:
here's my take
a) welcome microsoft to education, and let them spend their resources and energies into building what could be a showcase of education worldwide.
b) lobby very very hard for a mandate that *all* education at university-level across india must be:
1) platform-neutral for IT-education.
2) conducted using muft and mukt syllabus and courses. am sure nagarjuna can provide more details regarding point 2), right? :-)
3) allow for multiple-industry-players to education interaction.
4) recommend to fsf-friends worldwide to lobby very hard with their respective govts to adopt the above points, so we also have precedents to follow and finetune.
5) and while the above things take their slow, dragged-feet time, and assuming the university launches with overwhelming applications for enrolment (i hope so), work hard to contact students and parents at an individual level, and ask them to lobby from inside to balance their education.
6) lobby with other education institutions in india, to set up the example "to become the change you want to see in the world". hey! we've got thousands of colleges and universities across india. if over time enough create a juggernaut of mukt education, i hope parents and students feel rather silly to pay for education that will probably give them shop-talk.
personally, i have started to believe real-education in india is possible, unlike any other in the world, if we just wake up and remember who we are. but that's another story.
you see, education is always a two-way process. the educator gets further educated in sharing knowledge with students.
time for some education for microsoft as well. why do you think they're setting up the university, eh?
:-) niyam
On 7/17/07, Linux Lingam linuxlingam@gmail.com wrote:
have been reading with interest everyon'es response on the FSF mailing list on how to tackle the microsoft university challenge:
here's my take
a) welcome microsoft to education, and let them spend their resources and energies into building what could be a showcase of education worldwide.
You do not seem to understand the main intentions behind this 'privatization of education' and "FDI in Education". The Govt will mysteriously continue to reduce spending on higher education too and there will be nothing left for b). Research in the pure fields may never be funded. And the few parents who send their children to universities will send them to these shops.
Best
A. Mani
Hello,
On 17/07/07, Linux Lingam linuxlingam@gmail.com wrote:
a) welcome microsoft to education, and let them spend their resources and energies into building what could be a showcase of education worldwide.
I would say that we need privatisation of education since the current spending of the Govt. is deplorable but I am dead against the commercialisation of education. Please note the difference. Second, it is relatively easier to oppose their entry and relatively tougher to force them to close shop once they are here. Say NO to FDI in education.
b) lobby very very hard for a mandate that *all* education at
university-level across india must be:
platform-neutral for IT-education.
conducted using muft and mukt syllabus and courses.
am sure nagarjuna can provide more details regarding point 2), right? :-)
allow for multiple-industry-players to education interaction.
recommend to fsf-friends worldwide to lobby very hard with their
respective govts to adopt the above points, so we also have precedents to follow and finetune.
I have my reservations w.r.t. the concept of lobbying and its usefulness.
5) and while the above things take their slow, dragged-feet time, and
assuming the university launches with overwhelming applications for enrolment (i hope so), work hard to contact students and parents at an individual level, and ask them to lobby from inside to balance their education.
My proposal is this: First, we come out with our stand on this issue and present the alternative or what has to be done. Second, while propagating it in the mass media we take the issue to the academic community and campaign on the issue, maybe even collecting signatures. Basically conduct a mass-based campaign. Then, we reassess our tactics.
time for some education for microsoft as well.
why do you think they're setting up the university, eh?
No Rationale Except Profit.
On Tuesday 17 July 2007 10:13, Vikram Vincent wrote:
[snip] Say NO to FDI in education.
Is it list policy to oppose the entry of MS into education in India, or to oppose FDI in education in India?
-- Raju
On 17/07/07, Raj Mathur raju@linux-delhi.org wrote:
On Tuesday 17 July 2007 10:13, Vikram Vincent wrote:
[snip] Say NO to FDI in education.
Is it list policy to oppose the entry of MS into education in India, or to oppose FDI in education in India?
Don't you think it is related?
On Tuesday 17 July 2007 11:53, Vikram Vincent wrote:
On 17/07/07, Raj Mathur raju@linux-delhi.org wrote:
Is it list policy to oppose the entry of MS into education in India, or to oppose FDI in education in India?
Don't you think it is related?
No, I don't think they're related -- they're two entirely different things and I would have different reasons for being pro or anti either one.
Regards,
-- Raju
On 17/07/07, Raj Mathur raju@linux-delhi.org wrote:
On Tuesday 17 July 2007 11:53, Vikram Vincent wrote:
On 17/07/07, Raj Mathur raju@linux-delhi.org wrote:
Is it list policy to oppose the entry of MS into education in India, or to oppose FDI in education in India?
Don't you think it is related?
No, I don't think they're related -- they're two entirely different things and I would have different reasons for being pro or anti either one.
If Microsoft Corp has an investment greater than 50% or a controlling
percentage in Microsoft India does that qualify for the Indian unit being foreign controlled? My common sense says yes.
Hi,
My thoughts below:
On 7/16/07, Linux Lingam linuxlingam@gmail.com wrote:
- lobby with other education institutions in india, to set up the
example "to become the change you want to see in the world". hey! we've got thousands of colleges and universities across india. if over time enough create a juggernaut of mukt education, i hope parents and students feel rather silly to pay for education that will probably give them shop-talk.
Have you started work on it?
On 7/17/07, Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com wrote:
I would say that we need privatisation of education since the current spending of the Govt. is deplorable but I am dead against the commercialisation of education. Please note the difference.
Don't we already have enough private colleges a.k.a business-minded universities/colleges across India, who are more eager to drain your money, and get all the recognition/advertising without imparting any knowledge?
On 7/16/07, Mani A a.mani.cms@gmail.com wrote:
The Govt will mysteriously continue to reduce spending on higher education too
Can you show any receipts or links as to how much they spent, and how the students benefited from it?
b). Research in the pure fields may never be funded.
When did people start doing "research" in India, and when/how/where was it funded?
If you haven't read it already,
http://shakthimaan.com/downloads/glv/shakthimaan-paper/shakthimaan-paper-pre....
http://shakthimaan.com/downloads/glv/shakthimaan-paper/shakthimaan-paper.pdf
SK
Hello, what do you expect out of all these discussions on the mailing list? Will it be limited only to the mailing list or can in join the activities planned ?
Hello,
On 17/07/07, Shakthi Kannan shakthimaan@gmail.com wrote:
On 7/17/07, Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com wrote:
I would say that we need privatisation of education since the current spending of the Govt. is deplorable but I am dead against the commercialisation of education. Please note the difference.
Don't we already have enough private colleges a.k.a business-minded universities/colleges across India, who are more eager to drain your money, and get all the recognition/advertising without imparting any knowledge?
That was my point. I believe that the Govt. must increase its spending on education. India has one of the lowest public expenditures on higher education per student at US$406. Comparing, Malaysia(US$11790), China(US$2728), Brazil(US$3986), US(US$9629), UK(US$8502) and Japan(US$4830). When I said we need privatisation of education I was referring to places/Govts. which have already spent the maximum they can for education but are still short and hence the necessity. Karnataka, Tamilnadu, AP are of course exempt from this. Of course the private institutions would need to be regulated by the Govt.
Can you show any receipts or links as to how much they spent, and how
the students benefited from it?
b). Research in the pure fields may never be funded.
When did people start doing "research" in India, and when/how/where was it funded?
There used to be a time when students in India used to do research which was useful for the Indian economy. If I am not mistaken the current public investment in higher education is just about 0.37% of the GDP and is much below the required levels.
We see education as a public service which is responsible for providing us(students/youth) with the skills needed for economic success and also for building the foundations of a civil society. While the Indian Govt has already permitted 100% FDI in education under the GATS2000 negotiations I still feel that there are some options to negate or reduce its impact. But first we need 6% of GDP and 10% of Central budget allocated towards education. That should reduce some of our problems.
On 17/07/07, Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com wrote:
There used to be a time when students in India used to do research which was useful for the Indian economy. If I am not mistaken the current public investment in higher education is just about 0.37% of the GDP and is much below the required levels.
Sorry lost the thread... But due to the reduction of funding towards education students were forced to not take up research topics that were oriented towards our self-sufficiency but rather took up research that were oriented towards the development of other countries as the foreign corporations such as the Ford Foundation, etc.. were/are providing funding. Can you identify the vicious circle?
We see education as a public service which is responsible for providing
us(students/youth) with the skills needed for economic success and also for building the foundations of a civil society. While the Indian Govt has already permitted 100% FDI in education under the GATS2000 negotiations I still feel that there are some options to negate or reduce its impact. But first we need 6% of GDP and 10% of Central budget allocated towards education. That should reduce some of our problems.
On 7/17/07, Shakthi Kannan shakthimaan@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
My thoughts below:
On 7/16/07, Linux Lingam linuxlingam@gmail.com wrote:
- lobby with other education institutions in india, to set up the
example "to become the change you want to see in the world". hey! we've got thousands of colleges and universities across india. if over time enough create a juggernaut of mukt education, i hope parents and students feel rather silly to pay for education that will probably give them shop-talk.
Have you started work on it?
yes, since circa 2004. in my own individual capacity and in whatever limitations that offers me:
a) authored copyleft whitepapers "guerilla warfare for gyaan" and "seven steps to software samadhi"
b) conducted several dozen talks across india, to whichever university or college invites me, based around the above topics and a few more. my target is to touch atleast 10,000 students and let them further build this grassroots movement. i estimate so far i must have touched about 4,000 students. need to eat more of them. :-) and willing to take time-out from regular work to do this. as always.
c) at places where i have worked as a visiting faculty, have conducted migration festivals, dual-booted the entire college or departments' computers. in or two places got the local lug to hold their lug meet.
d) as visiting faculty, have always designed my own courses. these courses augment the proprietary-software-based courses with FOSS software and course-resources.
e) encourage students from newmedia and design to share their work under a creativecommons or copyleft license. support from sarai and linux-delhi helps make this possible at creative.linux-delhi.org
and a few more things.
nothing significant. nothing dramatic. but i sleep content at night.
:-) n
Hi,
On 7/17/07, Linux Lingam linuxlingam@gmail.com wrote:
yes, since circa 2004. in my own individual capacity and in whatever limitations that offers me:
Good to hear! Keep up the good work.
SK
On 7/17/07, Shakthi Kannan shakthimaan@gmail.com wrote:
On 7/16/07, Mani A a.mani.cms@gmail.com wrote:
The Govt will mysteriously continue to reduce spending on higher education too
Can you show any receipts or links as to how much they spent, and how the students benefited from it?
You can refer to the different official reports or to the Economic and political weekly for reliable data. The Govt does spend a bit on education. The present Govt has increased the spending. A problem is the elitist bias in spending. Of the whole amount spent on education too little goes for primary education.
b). Research in the pure fields may never be funded.
When did people start doing "research" in India, and when/how/where was it funded?
The fact is that lot of research is done and often with very limited or no grants. Both state and central universities do get some funding for basic research from the State Govt, DST and other bodies. It is not that all research happens by way of personal motivation alone.
If you haven't read it already,
http://shakthimaan.com/downloads/glv/shakthimaan-paper/shakthimaan-paper-pre....
You are speaking about engineering education and FLOSS.
Best
A. Mani
Hi,
On 7/18/07, Mani A a.mani.cms@gmail.com wrote:
You can refer to the different official reports or to the Economic and political weekly for reliable data. The Govt does spend a bit on education. The present Govt has increased the spending.
I also meant how much of it actually reaches the student/faculty. They can *claim* expenditure, but, how much is actually spent on "education". Is it spent properly so everyone *really* benefits from them? No.
How many EE departments have Digital Design Labs with FPGAs?
How many CS/IT departments have Embedded Labs?
The fact is that lot of research is done and often with very limited or no grants.
Please. Most private college management that I have seen ask their faculty to do PhDs so they can *claim* that they have x number of PhDs.
http://shakthimaan.com/downloads/glv/shakthimaan-paper/shakthimaan-paper-pre....
You are speaking about engineering education and FLOSS.
Duh! Current plight of engineering education, students, faculty. Slides: 3-14.
SK
On 7/18/07, Shakthi Kannan shakthimaan@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
On 7/18/07, Mani A a.mani.cms@gmail.com wrote:
You can refer to the different official reports or to the Economic and political weekly for reliable data. The Govt does spend a bit on education. The present Govt has increased the spending.
I also meant how much of it actually reaches the student/faculty. They can *claim* expenditure, but, how much is actually spent on "education". Is it spent properly so everyone *really* benefits from them? No.
How many EE departments have Digital Design Labs with FPGAs?
How many CS/IT departments have Embedded Labs?
I was not speaking about engineering education in particular. There it is that some places have all the facilities and others do not have anything at all.
The fact is that lot of research is done and often with very limited or no grants.
Please. Most private college management that I have seen ask their faculty to do PhDs so they can *claim* that they have x number of PhDs.
That is about privatization of education. Some others too do a phd for the sake of a degree. That happens too. All that happens in the western countries too.
This is going OT.
Best
A. Mani
Nagarjuna G. wrote: I agree that these are not going to be effective enough, but these are part of the campaign. Besides this will help us to get all our arguments together. This will help each of our colleagues to use them whenever they speak. we have to take the first steps some where.
If you have another way of conducting a campaign please let me know.
Press Release is an important starting point. It is a position statement on Problem. lets do it. I am also suggesting about drafting a signature campaign that focuses on Why we are opposing the It and what we. Free Software Community is suggesting for Schooling.
these are destructive way of opposing. some one should do this.. no doubt...
I dont think expressing your point of view and talking about it in press should be called as destructive way of opposing.
I dont think expressing your point of view and talking about it in press should be called as destructive way of opposing.
mmm...
there's a stanza of mahakavi bharathi in tamil..
"nallthu naattuga", "theeyathu oottuga"
to uphold good.. and to destroy evil...
thats exactly what i meant...
it need to be done.. but then thats not the complete solution...
where the constructive part comes in...
cheers...
Instead of asking the government to stop Microsoft from setting up the University, ask the government to grant land, fund everything it might allocate to microsoft in setting up its university to free software university also..
we need to tell them.. these.. these.. these are the advantages of free software.. so we want to set up a univeristy..
good that u are allowing microsoft to set up a university.. we also want to set up one.. give us also all that u r about to grant to microsoft..
grant us the same way... then they will think...
Hello,
On 17/07/07, shriramadhas shriramadhas@gmail.com wrote:
Instead of asking the government to stop Microsoft from setting up the University, ask the government to grant land, fund everything it might allocate to microsoft in setting up its university to free software university also..
The disadvantages of Foreign Direct Investment in education have been well
documented. I am doing a bit of reading on the issue and will post a separate mail on that. A "University of MIcrosoft" would qualify as FDI in education and hence is not desirable. Ok. We set up a "University of Free Software". Who is going to run it? We are unable to bring out good documentation as of now and still have a long way to go with other aspects... how do you suggest we go about this? We already find it tough to maintain a few full time employees for FSF(if I am not mistaken)... Let us work towards protecting and improving what we already have.
Vikram Vincent <vincentvikram@...> writes:
The disadvantages of Foreign Direct Investment in education have been well
documented. I am doing a bit of reading on the issue and will post a separate mail on that. A "University of MIcrosoft" would qualify as FDI in education and hence is not desirable.
Exactly no doubt. But i said, it will make them "think"...
Yes we do oppose..when FDI is leaglly possible how will government or how can government stop it?
It was possible with auditors.. When all auditors came forth to oppose it unitedly.. that isn't visible.. here..
will infosys & wipro come and support the cause..??
putting petitions.. conducting siganture campaings.. when porridge, water & food are still the concerns and m$ and others of such kind have "enough" to address them.. .. will have little impact...
We have good bureaucrats, like Uma Shankar IAS, who supports the cause of free software.. we need to approach them.. ask them.. even on political front.. Cheif minister of Kerala.. Our own President of India.. [glad he is retiring ;- )] to take it on the government side... slowly... so slowly...
Ok. We set up a "University of Free Software". Who is going to run it? We are unable to bring out good documentation as of now and still have a long way to go with other aspects... how do you suggest we go about this? We already find it tough to maintain a few full time employees for FSF(if I am not mistaken)... Let us work towards protecting and improving what we already have.
too much of a fore sight ;-) and why are we expecting FSF all time to do this.. ?? together we have to pull.. burden not on FSF alone.. :-)
now if we put forth a petition of such kind.. that we need resources to set up such university.. that too in bangalore... all just to draw attention...
and that too, if the news that M$ is going to set-up up a Univ is true..
to draw the attention we need to forge the petition atleast in this fashion.. all others not at this moment... this is beginning...
i think free software is also a political movement ;-)
On 17/07/07, shriramadhas shriramadhas@gmail.com wrote:
It was possible with auditors.. When all auditors came forth to oppose it unitedly.. that isn't visible.. here..
will infosys & wipro come and support the cause..??
No they will not support this cause. At least not at present.
putting petitions.. conducting siganture campaings.. when porridge, water &
food are still the concerns and m$ and others of such kind have "enough" to address them.. .. will have little impact...
Well this is an issue that the people who are struggling for "porridge, water and food" will not feel at present. But we have to focus on them too. Our current target crowd should be the under-graduate, graduate and PG students.
Ok. We set up a "University of Free Software". Who is going to run it?
We
are unable to bring out good documentation as of now and still have a
long
way to go with other aspects... how do you suggest we go about this? We already find it tough to maintain a few full time employees for FSF(if I
am
not mistaken)... Let us work towards protecting and improving what we already have.
too much of a fore sight ;-) and why are we expecting FSF all time to do this.. ?? together we have to pull.. burden not on FSF alone.. :-)
We need leadership. A collective leadership. FSF can/should provide that leadership. Many minds put together will get better results. I'm sure ESR's work is a guide to that ;-) (The Cathedral and the Bazaar).
i think free software is also a political movement ;-)
Hmm... I thought that that was the first premise of the theorem.
-
alpesh gajbe -
Linux Lingam -
Mani A -
ponnusamy A -
Raj Mathur -
Shakthi Kannan -
shriramadhas -
Vikram Vincent -
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