hi Arun ,
thanks for that personal note.
Though I expressed solidarity immediately i knew of this. I need a clarification. 'Novell' signs were put up in the venue earlier. Dr Nagarjuna was on the dias.
Did Anivar inform you folks earlier itself..which could have sorted out things peacefully or only things were informed after confrontation.
However I did see in the venue and in slashdot that very senior free software foudation folks act without restraint and like any regular flamer which is unfortunate.
my report and take on the incident in kochi conference and the frequent flames seen in the recent days.
http://slumdweller.wikispaces.com/kochi+conference http://slumdweller.wikispaces.com/kochi+conference
in solidarity S
On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 5:21 PM, Senthil Sundaram (sensunda) sensunda@cisco.com wrote:
hi Arun ,
thanks for that personal note.
Though I expressed solidarity immediately i knew of this. I need a clarification. 'Novell' signs were put up in the venue earlier. Dr Nagarjuna was on the dias.
Did Anivar inform you folks earlier itself..which could have sorted out things peacefully or only things were informed after confrontation.
I think anivar have the capacity to do campaigns in his personal capacity and he already shown that in a lot of other Civil society campaigns like Free Binayaksen campaign http://binayaksen.net , Kerala Tourism Watch http://keralatourismwatch.org etc. Does anivar Representing FSF India in Conference? The Conf website says he is represesenting SMC in Programme Commitee. So I am Quoting from SMC's statement
<quote> Members from SMC were part of the Programme Committee and the Souvenir Committee. There were no indication that Novell was the platinum sponsor of this Free Software Event. The organisers never communicated about the sponsorship and thus betrayed the whole Free Software community as Novell did. This is evident from the incidents that occurred after the peaceful campaign to boycott Novell by the SMC members & other Free Software Supporters present at the meeting.
SMC members including Anivar Aravind, Shyam, Hiran, Suresh, Jaisen and many others were busy in the first day with Localisation track (full time) and sessions. After knowing Novell's role SMC members planned a peaceful awareness campaign on second day urging end users to boycott Novell and posted a Charge sheet against Novell. However, the organisers, primarily the CUSAT bureaucrats & Members of Students Union, (who does not have much exposure in Free Software) were harsh with the protesters after a verbal complaint from one of the Novell official present at the stall.
quoted http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/SMC/StatementOnNCFS2008Kochi
However I did see in the venue and in slashdot that very senior free software foudation folks act without restraint and like any regular flamer which is unfortunate.
You have all rights to keep your view. But others have all freedom to act different than your expectation
my report and take on the incident in kochi conference and the frequent flames seen in the recent days.
http://slumdweller.wikispaces.com/kochi+conference
in solidarity S
Fsf-friends mailing list Fsf-friends@mm.gnu.org.in http://mm.gnu.org.in/mailman/listinfo/fsf-friends
There are a lot of answered questions like: why did the protestors want to be a part of the conference especially after the huge useless racket they created prior to the conference? They were proved wrong on all counts they raised. Was it due to the fact that they wanted some mileage out of it? Possible. Bangalore has many examples to tell. Why was FSF-I not a part of the conference? Then why did the FSF-I leadership sit on the dais? Why not have the protest on the first day rather than the last? Why was it not announced in advance? The workshops may be an excuse but not a convincing one. I very clearly remember hearing the organiser tell that they were willing to provide an open forum.. Why was this not utilised? Whenever questions are asked FSF-I prefers to give some vague reply like "we will clarify shortly.." and then no word after that or prefer to keep mum all together. This is getting very undemocratic and cannot continue for long.
On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com wrote:
There are a lot of answered questions like: why did the protestors want to be a part of the conference especially after the huge useless racket they created prior to the conference? They were proved wrong on all counts they raised. I very clearly remember hearing the organiser tell that they were willing to provide an open forum.. Why was this not utilised? Whenever questions are asked FSF-I prefers to give some vague reply like "we
Apparently Free software movements cannot be independent of politics. Politicians like Anivar Aravind, James Mathews and some others should learn not to play with Free software movements for their petty political gains.
+1 for the post.
The boycott Novell campaign has its justifications
Best
A. Mani
0) why did folks have to do a day long workshop with "Novell" and "betrayers of the free software community". What more than refusing to particpate and not cooperate...
1) why did many leading free software folks including fsf folks , have to participate in a event which such traitors
2) yes its my opinion the racket which was created earlier and now - is a bit out of propotion - and things are not as plain - as we are asked to believe - and
3) a democractic protest is valid - correction of errors is valid - boycott novel is valid - but not throwing your own baby with the water.
4) I am seeing 2 sets of rules - one for the organisers and the other for the organisers who were also protesters when convinient
5) why is there so much going back and forth : on 'hijack' - why is this becoming a pattern - of stating something and then retracting - if folks are so fed up - why put weak defences - come out strongly and openly - we atleast wont be confused
In solidarity Senthil
"Hijack..hijack..hijack.." -----------------------------
"Where are the advocates of freedom in the new digital society who have not been decried as pirates, anarchists, COMMUNISTS?" Have we not seen that many of those hurling the epithets were merely thieves in power, whose talk of ``intellectual property'' was nothing more than an attempt to retain unjustifiable privileges in a society irrevocably changing? " - Prof Eben Moglen
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------
James Mathew full timer of fsf, india writes the following in slash dot
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?no_d2=1&sid=08/11/17/0120203
Quote
This is an interesting story from Kerala, India, where the ruling Communist Party organized a national conference in its efforts to hijack the Free Software Movement, which has enviable roots in the state.
Unquote
James of FSF has said that in his personal capacity that he feels that the cpim orgnaised the national conference..i guess as he has not retracted this opinion he still holds it
Sasikumar sir writes :
http://www.mail-archive.com/fsf-friends@mm.gnu.org.in/msg00704.html
Quote
I am writing this mail since my earlier mail is being interpreted to mean that the CPI(M) is trying to sabotage the Free Software Movement in the country. That was not at all what I meant. Since I wrote it in a hurry as I am on the verge of leaving on a rather longish journey. I don't think a large party like the CPM would try to capture a small organisation like FSF India. But the convention has several known CPM leaders (such as Dr. Debesh Das) and CPM supporters (such as Sri N. Ram). So it would appear that the people who are doing this have a CPM background. Why they would want to create such a problem, god only knows. I am sure the top brass in the party would never knowingly permit such activities. I am sorry if I sounded otherwise.
Best -- V. Sasi Kumar Free Software Foundation of India
unqote
Our own Anivar sent a mail titled : A CPIM Hijack of Free Software Foundation
http://www.mail-archive.com/fsf-friends@mm.gnu.org.in/msg00696.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------
However Anivar in a later mail in regards to the kochi event said:
http://mm.gnu.org.in/pipermail/fsug-bangalore/2008-November/002160.html
Quote
I feel the slashdot comment is diverting the Free Software Issue and portrays unwanted fight between Free software movement & Communist party of india, a biggest supporter of Free software Movement
unquote
On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 10:35 PM, Senthil Sundaram (sensunda) sensunda@cisco.com wrote:
I feel the slashdot comment is diverting the Free Software Issue and portrays unwanted fight between Free software movement & Communist party of india, a biggest supporter of Free software Movement
Its on expected lines that since Big American companies are around Proprietary Software, a Commie is naturally expected to choose the other way available :-)
Whole world is today learning many lessons from Free Softwares Movement even though that was not the intention.
Many are using free softwares for their own needs which was intended .
People have learnt a lot from history and may look back some times what has happened.
Free Software Movement is not the solution for all the problems or for every body's every kind of problem.
Free Software Movement addresses very few problems of our Free Society. It cant address every problem of Free Society.
The day people realize that programming is an art and programmers (contributors ) have the urge to program ( contribute ) irrespective of benefits from those and
The day people realize that the way currently people are considering free softwares and free software movement is not the way many ( from the initiators of FSM )would have expected .
Definitely the day in which people go back to their home after their jobs and write programs which satisfies their needs is the day where people will get answers for all their questions abt why Free Software Movement was initiated till then those who have strong determination to wait and see and experience can wait otherwise they have their freedom to draw their own conclusions ---
Time will teach every body what they wanted to learn at least this is true in case of Free Software Movement
________________________________
From: renuka prasad [mailto:renukaprasadb@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 11:01 PM To: Senthil Sundaram (sensunda) Cc: Principal Support List of FSF-India Subject: Re: [Fsf-friends] a clarification needed
Whole world is today learning many lessons from Free Softwares Movement even though that was not the intention.
Many are using free softwares for their own needs which was intended .
People have learnt a lot from history and may look back some times what has happened.
Free Software Movement is not the solution for all the problems or for every body's every kind of problem.
Free Software Movement addresses very few problems of our Free Society. It cant address every problem of Free Society.
The day people realize that programming is an art and programmers (contributors ) have the urge to program ( contribute ) irrespective of benefits from those and
The day people realize that the way currently people are considering free softwares and free software movement is not the way many ( from the initiators of FSM )would have expected .
could be true.. metamorphisis for some or degrading ( quality -
quantity - mass based - radical ) : according to some could be there..but we could work in both these ways at peace..where the mind is without fear and see what works out on field...and thats why i am saying these 'hijack' mails are un called for ... a true movement always succeeds .. staged managed stuff always withers away...............
Definitely the day in which people go back to their home after their jobs and write programs which satisfies their needs is the day where people will get answers for all their questions abt why Free Software Movement was initiated till then those who have strong determination to wait and see and experience can wait otherwise they have their freedom to draw their own conclusions ---
Time will teach every body what they wanted to learn at least this is true in case of Free Software Movement
On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Mani A a.mani.cms@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com wrote:
Apparently Free software movements cannot be independent of politics. Politicians like Anivar Aravind, James Mathews and some others should learn not to play with Free software movements for their petty political gains.
For your kind information, Free Software 'is' a political movement. Since it is so, not just Anivar and James, but all those who are sincerely involved in its activities automatically become politicians. Hope this link http://linux.sys-con.com/node/34189/print will enlighten you.
James
On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 5:53 AM, james mathew james.infidel@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Mani A a.mani.cms@gmail.com wrote:
Politicians like Anivar Aravind, James Mathews and some others should learn not to play with Free software movements for their petty political gains.
For your kind information, Free Software 'is' a political movement. Since it is so, not just Anivar and James, but all those who are sincerely involved in its activities automatically become politicians. Hope this link http://linux.sys-con.com/node/34189/print will enlighten you.
'petty political gains' are not those and all politics is not 'free software politics'. The goal of the free software politics is certainly not to implement a whole series of actions to discredit or hinder others involved in the free software movement. And I am not talking about Novell.
May be you will consider the differences and not make a mess of it.
Best
A. Mani
// why did the protestors want to be a part of the conference especially after the huge useless racket they created prior to the conference? They were proved wrong on all counts they raised. Was it due to the fact that they wanted some mileage out of it? Possible. Bangalore has many examples to tell. Why was FSF-I not a part of the conference? Then why did the FSF-I leadership sit on the dais? Why not have the protest on the first day rather than the last? Why was it not announced in advance? The workshops may be an excuse but not a convincing one. I very clearly remember hearing the organiser tell that they were willing to provide an open forum.. Why was this not utilised? Whenever questions are asked FSF-I prefers to give some vague reply like "we will clarify shortly.." and then no word after that or prefer to keep mum all together. This is getting very undemocratic and cannot continue for long.//
That was a good event in my opinion, till I was there watching Mohiniyattam, Duruyodhana Vadham in Kadhakali - imagined it to the Vadha of Propritary Software :-)
And Yechury's speech on flow of enormous funds with sovereign governments having no control on it was also thought provoking. Just thought a bit odd when SFI members shouted slogans when he reached the Big Hall.. But felt that tend to happen in a Commie ruled state.. such things do happen every where.. and need to tolerated as long as its within a limit.. that was tolerable :-)
It brought lot of people whom We would have met only on mailing lists..
Second day? Appear lot of things have happened. Let things get settle down & Duruyodhana Vadham begin ;-)
-- Amachu
On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 5:21 PM, Senthil Sundaram (sensunda) sensunda@cisco.com wrote:
hi Arun ,
thanks for that personal note.
Though I expressed solidarity immediately i knew of this. I need a clarification. 'Novell' signs were put up in the venue earlier. Dr Nagarjuna was on the dias.
Did Anivar inform you folks earlier itself..which could have sorted out things peacefully or only things were informed after confrontation.
I think anivar have the capacity to do campaigns in his personal capacity and he already shown that in a lot of other Civil society campaigns like Free Binayaksen campaign http://binayaksen.net , Kerala Tourism Watch http://keralatourismwatch.org etc. Does anivar Representing FSF India in Conference? The Conf website says he is represesenting SMC in Programme Commitee. So I am Quoting from SMC's statement
<quote> Members from SMC were part of the Programme Committee and the Souvenir Committee. There were no indication that Novell was the platinum sponsor of this Free Software Event. The organisers never communicated about the sponsorship and thus betrayed the whole Free Software community as Novell did. This is evident from the incidents that occurred after the peaceful campaign to boycott Novell by the SMC members & other Free Software Supporters present at the meeting.
SMC members including Anivar Aravind, Shyam, Hiran, Suresh, Jaisen and many others were busy in the first day with Localisation track (full time) and sessions. After knowing Novell's role SMC members planned a peaceful awareness campaign on second day urging end users to boycott Novell and posted a Charge sheet against Novell. However, the organisers, primarily the CUSAT bureaucrats & Members of Students Union, (who does not have much exposure in Free Software) were harsh with the protesters after a verbal complaint from one of the Novell official present at the stall.
quoted http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/SMC/StatementOnNCFS2008Kochi
However I did see in the venue and in slashdot that very senior free software foudation folks act without restraint and like any regular flamer which is unfortunate.
You have all rights to keep your view. But others have all freedom to act different than your expectation
my report and take on the incident in kochi conference and the frequent flames seen in the recent days.
http://slumdweller.wikispaces.com/kochi+conference
in solidarity S
Fsf-friends mailing list Fsf-friends@mm.gnu.org.in http://mm.gnu.org.in/mailman/listinfo/fsf-friends
Dear All,
Again a personal note, nothing related to FSF India(expect last para).
Though I expressed solidarity immediately i knew of this. I need a clarification. 'Novell' signs were put up in the venue earlier. Dr Nagarjuna was on the dias.
FSF India or FSF has any untouchability to Novell as far as we know. Dr Nagarjuna was invited for a program and he spoke. I was invited, I participated. Even if Microsoft gives us a slot we will go and speak. There is no issue in that.
I hope this answers your question.
Did Anivar inform you folks earlier itself..which could have sorted out things peacefully or only things were informed after confrontation.
I hope Anivar will respond to this. I would add that protest was completely peaceful expect for treatment Anivar and some students received.
However I did see in the venue and in slashdot that very senior free software foudation folks act without restraint and like any regular flamer which is unfortunate.
If you are referring to James, he is an employee of FSF India and he does not have any capacity to talk on behalf of FSF India. So dont try to take put that in FSF India's name.
Each member of FSF India board may have their own opinion. That can not become FSF India's opinion unless FSF India board approves it. I dont see any point in dragging FSF India into this discussion.
FSF India was not part of the conference though some board members participated in the event. Our participation is no way an endorsement to the conference. FSF India do have its own stand on the conference. Please note that this has nothing to do with what happened.
with regards, arun
Dear Arun,
Thanks for taking time to answer a newbie like me. My replies inline.
-S
However I did see in the venue and in slashdot that very senior free
software foudation folks act without restraint and like any regular flamer which is unfortunate.
If you are referring to James, he is an employee of FSF India and he does not have any capacity to talk on behalf of FSF India. So dont try to take put that in FSF India's name.
Each member of FSF India board may have their own opinion. That can not become FSF India's opinion unless FSF India board approves it. I dont see any point in dragging FSF India into this discussion. FSF India was not part of the conference though some board members participated in the event. Our participation is no way an endorsement to the conference. FSF India do have its own stand on the conference. Please note that this has nothing to do with what happened.
yes there is a personal and official..however things can get very
confused...
0) this is a request : if we can avoid 'hijack' mails even in personal capacity ... Show restraint... Especially by senior folks..it might help avoiding unnecessary conflicts...especially when its becoming a pattern .......
1) yes we should communicate better and we will do our best for this here..
2) but many times...there were only hurdles in bangalore..you have said that you want to meet the comptuer center..we were heckled most of the time....and a feeling of being looked at with some kind of disdain..there was a feeling of lack of transpernecy as you said....we 50 people who came to the conferenece....did not purposefully bring it out in the interest of the group ( as we believe in restraint for the larger cause) ... And as you said communication could solve it..so our restraint worked...and our efforts to communicate helped..rather than blowing our top in public.
3) we can do all the discussion internally and work on conflict resolution than confrontation
2008/11/18 Arun M arun@gnu.org.in
<snip>FSF India was not part of the conference though some board members participated in the event. Our participation is no way an endorsement to the conference. FSF India do have its own stand on the conference. Please note that this has nothing to do with what happened.
Why is it that FSF-I has no public opinion about anything important? Chennai, Kochi, Bangalore... We want to know the reason for FSF-I not being a part of the conference.
From the Vision of FSF-I http://www.gnu.org.in/why-we-exist the only work of
FSF-I is to be a not-for-profit company with certain goals which are not mass movement oriented. This is not useful to the Free Software Movement which is a mass movement. Is FSF-I democratic in its constitution? Meaning, are the members elected or do company policies apply? If FSF-I continues in this manner then why do we need any FSF-I? We need an organisation which can guide this Movement and not simply to give verdict/blessings that "this/you is/are right", "that/you is/are wrong",... We want to know how FSF-I intends to proceed in the future. Does it plan to be a participant in the Movement? We want it to be democratic and representative of the Movement in all senses and not simply through talk.
-
Arun M -
Deepa Paul |ദീപാ പോള് -
james mathew -
Mani A -
renuka prasad -
Senthil Sundaram (sensunda) -
Sri Ramadoss M -
Vikram Vincent -
ம. ஸ்ரீ ராம தாஸ் |Sri Ramadoss M