[Apologies for cross posting. Please take care while replying]
Did you know that you can only see the official online version of the constitution of India in our national language - Hindi, if you use Internet Explorer? That is right. Take a look at the following link.
http://indiacode.nic.in/coiweb/welcome.html
I have been hunting down other GoI offenders and listing them at http://www.lug-delhi.org/HallOfShame/Websites
Now dont go ahead and moan about difficulties of showing Indian languages on the web.The PTI hindi website (http://www.ptinews.com/bhasha/ptisite.nsf) shows that a standard based alternative already exists.
We need more help from every body concerned to list the GoI and private financial institution offenders who discriminate against users of alternative and Free Operating systems from accessing information from our very own government!
After all what is the point of evangelising Linux/BSD or whatever as an alternative to newbies if they see that every other web site in India openly discriminate against them?
- Sandip
-- Sandip Bhattacharya * Puroga Technologies * sandip@puroga.com Work: http://www.puroga.com * Home: http://www.sandipb.net
PGP/GPG Signature: 51A4 6C57 4BC6 8C82 6A65 AE78 B1A1 2280 A129 0FF3
printk("NULL POINTER IDIOT\n"); linux-2.6.6/drivers/media/dvb/dvb-core/dvb_filter.c
Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:
Did you know that you can only see the official online version of the constitution of India in our national language - Hindi, if you use Internet Explorer? That is right. Take a look at the following link.
http://indiacode.nic.in/coiweb/welcome.html
I have been hunting down other GoI offenders and listing them at http://www.lug-delhi.org/HallOfShame/Websites
Now dont go ahead and moan about difficulties of showing Indian languages on the web.The PTI hindi website (http://www.ptinews.com/bhasha/ptisite.nsf) shows that a standard based alternative already exists.
We need more help from every body concerned to list the GoI and private financial institution offenders who discriminate against users of alternative and Free Operating systems from accessing information from our very own government!
Basically, NIC < http://home.nic.in/ > has been involved with computerisation in our country, for a long time, since 1950's. Please visit http://home.nic.in/aboutus/history.htm The GOI sites, and many state gov sites are maintained by NIC. It is almost pointless to nitpick GOI sites when NIC has been using proprietary software for a long time when it was the only viable option available. Please visit http://home.nic.in/opa/opa.htm and go through the http://home.nic.in/opa/topics.htm Looks like many of the gov offices are run with proprietary software. But all that would change, and the most visible indication of that change is http://osf.nic.in/
No doubt, there could be no discrimination against free software users. But, if we take into consideration the long history of using non-free software when that was the only workable option available, it is harsh to have a "Hall of Shame" and expect changes over night. The better way to fame is to send plain and simple suggestions pointing out what exactly needs to be done. http://osf.nic.in specifically asks for suggestions. Have you thought of inviting the admin of osf.nic.in to your lug meets? Let us please devise practical ways to assist them in bringing about changes quickly.
After all what is the point of evangelising Linux/BSD or whatever as an alternative to newbies if they see that every other web site in India openly discriminate against them?
It may not be fair to accuse NIC of wanton discrimination, at this stage, when evengelising itself is not yet on a scale and size that is really befitting the growth and maturity of free software. Increasing awareness about free software is necessary along with other changes simultaneously. Though the advantages in using free software is fairly obvious, and it is difficult to come to terms with having to "evangelise" free software, if is unfortunately needed, and we need to keep doing it until all software is free software.
Regards, Ramanraj.
On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 23:01 +0530, Ramanraj K wrote:
Basically, NIC < http://home.nic.in/ > has been involved with computerisation in our country, for a long time, since 1950's. Please visit http://home.nic.in/aboutus/history.htm The GOI sites, and many state gov sites are maintained by NIC. It is almost pointless to nitpick GOI sites when NIC has been using proprietary software for a long time when it was the only viable option available. Please visit
No doubt, there could be no discrimination against free software users. But, if we take into consideration the long history of using non-free software when that was the only workable option available, it is harsh to have a "Hall of Shame" and expect changes over night. The better way
Ramanraj ji, if you dont mind, I would like to disagree with you on this.
Proprietary software have almost never been the only viable option at any time in the history of web. Let me explain:
Most of the web sites of NIC that are declared to be optimized with IE use plain HTML and/or Java Script both of which have almost always have been standardized. Countless commercial websites since the inception of web have been making websites which work on on multiple browsers. So what was the reason for them to declare websites IE optimized? What does optimized mean anyway? It means that they have only bothered to test it against that browser, and didn't feel it worthwhile to test it with the "other" browser - Netscape, which has been there for a much longer time.
Just name one feature of IE that they have *used* in these websites which did not have an alternative at that time!!! Even multilingual commercial websites the world over have ensured that both the dynamic font technologies available at that time - Bitstream PFR and Microsoft EOT, is available to visitors to cater to both major browsers at that time. I would know. I have been working in this area since '99, and I remember the lengths to which we used to go to see that both browsers are supported. To tell you the truth, private web development companies almost never could afford to make websites working only on IE - our clients always asked for maximum interoperability.
Alternatives not being available is a really bad excuse for NIC to harp about. It was either laziness or just fashion at that time to develop websites for IE.
After all what is the point of evangelising Linux/BSD or whatever as an alternative to newbies if they see that every other web site in India openly discriminate against them?
It may not be fair to accuse NIC of wanton discrimination, at this stage, when evengelising itself is not yet on a scale and size that is really befitting the growth and maturity of free software. Increasing
I didn't get this. Are you trying to say that Free software hasn't matured enough to be used by NIC for their work? I would like to seriously disagree here. Even five years back, Free software was good enough to give commercial software a good run for their money, especially in the kinds of web sites that NIC has worked in.
awareness about free software is necessary along with other changes simultaneously. Though the advantages in using free software is fairly obvious, and it is difficult to come to terms with having to "evangelise" free software, if is unfortunately needed, and we need to keep doing it until all software is free software.
Well, commercial software sales people have been evangelising their software for years regardless of their quality. At least, we are in a better position knowing that we are telling the truth when we evangelise/advocate Free software, don't you think? :)
As I have mailed to this list before, there is no point is just promoting Free software. Look from the point of view of users for a change. If you even use Firefox on Windows, you will still feel a bit panicky when you access a critical site which calls itself IE optimized! You never know which page will break on the browser.
For example, take the case of an Airlines web site. The site maybe advertising itself as IE optimized, but *you* never know where they have optimized it. What happens if they decide to "IE optimize" the payments section, and you see your transaction hang in between just after entering your credit card number, and you end up getting charged but without a ticket?
On one hand our people should set out encouraging people to use more and more Free software .. like we already do now. But what is equally important that some of us go after the major content producing resources, to ensure that they work well with Free software. You cant do these two activities serially! It will boomerang on the advocacy process! You have to do both these activities at the *same* time - advocate and ensure inter-operation at the same time.
NIC just happens to be the largest content provider in India which is mostly proprietary. Ironically, large commercial websites have always been interoperable, because even if the percentage of Netscape users is in single digits, they are still customers! NIC never had that kind of incentive!
Seriously, I have had enough of people screaming at me that their banking or stock trading or airlines reservation sites don't work on Linux! Linux gets a bad name, and it isn't even responsible! The content producers are.
NIC, I feel, knows enough about what to do. They don't need to be told that they should be using standardized technologies in their work. They are an old enough company with plenty of very knowledgeable and talented people working for them who already know what to do. The direction has to come from top. NIC needs to impose a *policy* on their complete web development team to ensure that all their websites pass standards validation tests. Standard validation websites have been around for a long time!
- Sandip
P.S. To be honest, I am a bit prejudiced against premier government organizations like NIC or CDAC. I feel really sad and frustrated that far from being leaders in bringing Free software to the people, these organizations have thrived on either using or creating proprietary software all these years ... and now they are just playing catch up to the free software activity in India.
-- Sandip Bhattacharya * Puroga Technologies * sandip@puroga.com Work: http://www.puroga.com * Home: http://www.sandipb.net
PGP/GPG Signature: 51A4 6C57 4BC6 8C82 6A65 AE78 B1A1 2280 A129 0FF3
The cow is nothing but a machine which makes grass fit for us people to eat. -- John McNulty
Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:
On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 23:01 +0530, Ramanraj K wrote:
Basically, NIC < http://home.nic.in/ > has been involved with computerisation in our country, for a long time, since 1950's. Please visit http://home.nic.in/aboutus/history.htm The GOI sites, and many state gov sites are maintained by NIC. It is almost pointless to nitpick GOI sites when NIC has been using proprietary software for a long time when it was the only viable option available. Please visit
No doubt, there could be no discrimination against free software users. But, if we take into consideration the long history of using non-free software when that was the only workable option available, it is harsh to have a "Hall of Shame" and expect changes over night. The better way
Ramanraj ji, if you dont mind, I would like to disagree with you on this.
Proprietary software have almost never been the only viable option at any time in the history of web. Let me explain: .....
Earlier, there was a discussion about http://osf.nic.in/ here, and there was no real consensus as to the acceptable "standard". That apart, questions like, is it all right to use java, javascript, frames, etc. arise. You may contend that NIC/GoI sites fall short of your standards, but is there any consensus about the ideal normative standards that any public body should follow?
To put it more plainly, we are at a defining moment in history, and if we do take sufficient care to give ourselves a few clear definitions, adoption of free software would become easier. We have many defacto standards: http://www.cmpcmm.com/cc/standards.html What tests should be applied to pick and choose from the defacto standards available? The forthcoming World Summit on the Information Society [WSIS] to be held in Tunis in 2005 may have some answers. http://www.itu.int/wsis/ So far, a declaration of principles and plan of action is available at http://www.itu.int/wsis/docs/geneva/official/dop.html http://www.itu.int/wsis/docs/geneva/official/poa.html An international treaty that recognises free software movement and many useful standards may pave way for municipal legislation that is more or less uniform around the globe. For now, we can focus on what we can usefully present at Tunis.
To be honest, I am a bit prejudiced against premier government organizations like NIC or CDAC. I feel really sad and frustrated that far from being leaders in bringing Free software to the people, these organizations have thrived on either using or creating proprietary software all these years ... and now they are just playing catch up to the free software activity in India.
Please avoid having prejudices against *anyone*. HTH ;)
Meanwhile, there is nothing in the way to patch up existing content, to make it usable by us. We volunteer all the time, and helping with writing patches for GOI sites, may help. It may take less time than writing representations. The only way to move forward and bring in changes is by sending representations [and patches, if possible], and documenting them well, to measure progress. If, inspite of representations, discrimination continues, I am sure you are aware of the options available to you.
On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 08:16 +0530, Ramanraj K wrote:
Proprietary software have almost never been the only viable option at any time in the history of web. Let me explain: .....
Earlier, there was a discussion about http://osf.nic.in/ here, and there was no real consensus as to the acceptable "standard". That apart, questions like, is it all right to use java, javascript, frames, etc. arise. You may contend that NIC/GoI sites fall short of your standards, but is there any consensus about the ideal normative standards that any public body should follow?
Fall short of my standards? I am talking about web standards defined here: http://www.w3c.org/ for HTML/DOM/CSS, http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-262.htm
for Javascript. And there is nothing specific to public bodies. All websites should be trying to comply with these standards as much as possible.
To be honest, I am a bit prejudiced against premier government organizations like NIC or CDAC. I feel really sad and frustrated that far from being leaders in bringing Free software to the people, these organizations have thrived on either using or creating proprietary software all these years ... and now they are just playing catch up to the free software activity in India.
Please avoid having prejudices against *anyone*. HTH ;)
:) I agree with you heartily there. I am also hoping that these organisations do something really worthwhile to redeem themselves to the Free Software community in India.
Meanwhile, there is nothing in the way to patch up existing content, to make it usable by us. We volunteer all the time, and helping with writing patches for GOI sites, may help. It may take less time than writing representations. The only way to move forward and bring in changes is by sending representations [and patches, if possible], and documenting them well, to measure progress. If, inspite of
You know, that last part was a *great* idea. Instead of just maintaining a passive list, we should be taking up each of these entries in the blacklist and proactively try to correct them. I am planning to compile a definitive list of all these non-compliant sites, and then make a representation to NIC with my LUG, and document what all is happening.
- Sandip
-- Sandip Bhattacharya * Puroga Technologies * sandip@puroga.com Work: http://www.puroga.com * Home: http://www.sandipb.net
PGP/GPG Signature: 51A4 6C57 4BC6 8C82 6A65 AE78 B1A1 2280 A129 0FF3
Harrison's Postulate: For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:
Fall short of my standards? I am talking about web standards defined here: http://www.w3c.org/ for HTML/DOM/CSS, http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-262.htm
for Javascript. And there is nothing specific to public bodies. All websites should be trying to comply with these standards as much as possible.
Many of these are defacto standards, evolved by the industry/other groups with little or no gov participation. ecma is a group of propreitary companies agreeing upon a few "standards". Any "standards" set by such groups cannot be accepted automatically as "standard". Each has to be taken case by case, item by item, and after careful evaluation, adopt it for public use, if they do pass any common test that may be devised for this purpose.
On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 09:28 +0530, Ramanraj K wrote:
Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:
Fall short of my standards? I am talking about web standards defined here: http://www.w3c.org/ for HTML/DOM/CSS, http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-262.htm
for Javascript. And there is nothing specific to public bodies. All websites should be trying to comply with these standards as much as possible.
Many of these are defacto standards, evolved by the industry/other groups with little or no gov participation. ecma is a group of propreitary companies agreeing upon a few "standards". Any "standards" set by such groups cannot be accepted automatically as "standard". Each has to be taken case by case, item by item, and after careful evaluation, adopt it for public use, if they do pass any common test that may be devised for this purpose.
W3C, IETF, ECMA, etc. are industry standard groups with world wide accepted open discussion processes! I am curious. Which prevalent computer standard would *you* accept as a "Standard"? Are you talking about BIS standards or ISO standards or what?
Are you trying to say that it is acceptable to use a single-company proprietary standards (like MS IE extensions, Active X etc.) but not acceptable to use open Industry standards? Check out the NIC OSF website. Virtually all their recommended standards are those which have been drawn by these industry bodies and accepted the world over. As I said before, these standards have existed for years! And any body in the industry who knows a bit about what they are doing, are aware of these standards.
- Sandip
-- Sandip Bhattacharya * Puroga Technologies * sandip@puroga.com Work: http://www.puroga.com * Home: http://www.sandipb.net
PGP/GPG Signature: 51A4 6C57 4BC6 8C82 6A65 AE78 B1A1 2280 A129 0FF3
The greatest griefs are those we cause ourselves. -- Sophocles
Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:
W3C, IETF, ECMA, etc. are industry standard groups with world wide accepted open discussion processes! I am curious. Which prevalent computer standard would *you* accept as a "Standard"? Are you talking about BIS standards or ISO standards or what?
OK. By "standard", you meant those "industry standard groups with world wide accepted open discussion processes". I like "vendor neutral free and open specifications" that I often hear of, better. Defining standards would help to reason clearly why foo is ok but foo_bar is not ok. Intl. orgs where governments are well represented are best suited to do this task of defining standards, and it is easier that way to have std. gov. policies that can be very easily followed or enforced.
Are you trying to say that it is acceptable to use a single-company proprietary standards (like MS IE extensions, Active X etc.) but not acceptable to use open Industry standards?
No.
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, Ramanraj K wrote:
Intl. orgs where governments are well represented are best suited to do this task of defining standards, and it is easier that way to have std. gov. policies that can be very easily followed or enforced.
Please keep governments out. They are incompetant and it will be another UN.
Phatak
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