rahulsundaram@yahoo.co.in wrote:
2) The appropriate equivalent of the word freedom in Tamil is 'sudanthiram' rather than 'viduthalai' as mentioned here (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html).
Do people agree?
--- Richard Stallman rms@gnu.org wrote:
rahulsundaram@yahoo.co.in wrote:
Tamil is rather than 'viduthalai' as mentioned here (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html).
Do people agree?
I would think YES. 'sudanthiram' perfectly translates to 'swatantra'
Free software is translated as # Tamil: Viduthalai it should be # Tamil: Sudanthiram software
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Richard M. Stallman said on Sat, Jan 03, 2004 at 10:53:32PM -0500,:
2) The appropriate equivalent of the word freedom in Tamil is 'sudanthiram' rather than 'viduthalai' as mentioned here (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html).Do people agree?
Yes.
I am not tamil speaking, but am familiar with it. `Viduthalai' reminds me me of `independence' and 'liberation'. The concept of freedom is better conveyed by the term 'swatantrayam', whatever way you spell it.
On Sun, Jan 04, 2004 at 01:01:01PM +0530, Mahesh T. Pai wrote:
I am not tamil speaking, but am familiar with it. `Viduthalai' reminds me me of `independence' and 'liberation'. The concept of freedom is better conveyed by the term 'swatantrayam', whatever way you spell it.
In Malayalam we can call Free Software as "Swatantra Ganana Soothram". What do other Malayalees in this list say ?
Regards
Dileep M. Kumar said on Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 10:16:19AM +0530,:
In Malayalam we can call Free Software as "Swatantra Ganana Soothram". What do other Malayalees in this list say ?
While this is literally accurate, in modern Malayalam, `soothram' is understood as a `trick'.
My vote is for `software'.
Let us not go the French way. The French, unlike the English (that is, people living in England) have a sort of puritanic/fanatic approach to their language. They go out of way to find their own substitutes for concepts borrowed from other languages. Linguists agree that as a consequence of such fanaticism, the French language is much poorer.
We can try to learn from errors of the French.
BTW, French term for `software' is something like `logicel'
On Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 08:00:48PM +0530, Mahesh T. Pai wrote:
Dileep M. Kumar said on Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 10:16:19AM +0530,:
In Malayalam we can call Free Software as "Swatantra Ganana Soothram". What do other Malayalees in this list say ?
While this is literally accurate, in modern Malayalam, `soothram' is understood as a `trick'.
Not for all, I suppose. :-)
My vote is for `software'.
I feel we should learn from Tamil people. They find alternative words for many such things. eg: telephone = tholai pechi , Akasa Vani = Vanoli Nilayam.
In Malayalam also we can have Telephone= Doora Bhashini , which convey the meaning exactly. But our Malayalees always lack that "Love towards Mother tounge". They feel proud to say "Enikku Malayalam Ariyilla" (I dont know Malayalam). I am sad to say this.
Regards
On Tue, 2004-01-06 at 09:34, Dileep M. Kumar wrote:
On Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 08:00:48PM +0530, Mahesh T. Pai wrote:
Dileep M. Kumar said on Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 10:16:19AM +0530,:
In Malayalam we can call Free Software as "Swatantra Ganana Soothram". What do other Malayalees in this list say ?
While this is literally accurate, in modern Malayalam, `soothram' is understood as a `trick'.
Not for all, I suppose. :-)
In common usage, the word 'soothram' has acquired such a meaning. For most ordinary folk, 'soothram' would continue to mean 'trick'. On the other hand, is 'soothram' (in the other sense) a 'pure' Malayalam word? It has come from Sanskrit. For that matter, what is 'pure' Malayalam? We have borrowed so many words from other languages (jannal, mesa, stool, shirt, and even computer) that it is now difficult to say which word is 'pure' Malayalam. This is not the case in very ancient languages like Sanskrit and Tamil. That is why it is possible in these languages to build new words starting from roots. I guess these are two different ways of doing things, and one of them is, perhaps, more suitable in a given language or situation. Malayalam has a long history of borrowing from other languages and that is its strength. That is the strength of other world languages like English too. So we need not feel ashamed to borrow words from other languages. People have already started using the word 'software' and it has got into many documents and books including textbooks. In the situation, my opinion is that we can stick with the word.
Hi,
That is the strength of other world languages like English too. So we need not feel ashamed to borrow words from other languages. People have already started using the word 'software' and it has got into many documents and books including textbooks. In the situation, my opinion is that we can stick with the word.
A good malayalam translation for "software", if it can convey the exact meaning, should always be welcomed. But IMHO "Ganana Soothram" and "Mruthu saamagri"(soft-ware!) fails to convey the exact meaning. If we couldn't find any suitable translation, we can adopt the word "software" itself, which will make our language "richer"
A good malayalam translation for "software", if it can convey the exact meaning, should always be welcomed. But IMHO "Ganana Soothram" and "Mruthu saamagri"(soft-ware!) fails to convey the exact meaning. If we couldn't find any suitable translation, we can adopt the word "software" itself, which will make our language "richer"
Software is a product of science. Like "radio","phone", "homoeopathy"...., "software" will also become part of life to all. It is universal and people will call it by that name only. It is difficult to find translation that conveys exact meaning.Even if you find one, people may not use it in their life!.
Sugathan
Dileep M. Kumar wrote on Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 09:34:24AM +0530: ,---- | In Malayalam also we can have Telephone= Doora Bhashini , which convey | the meaning exactly. But our Malayalees always lack that "Love towards | Mother tounge". They feel proud to say "Enikku Malayalam Ariyilla" (I | dont know Malayalam). I am sad to say this. `----
I guess thats the same scenario everywhere... Nor do tamil people have the "pride"... but is it very important (not in the context of this thread though) to take a language that seriously? Its only a matter of communication, or is there something very special (minus literature, specialities, etc.,.). Whats the point in going to any modern english-medium school and talking in Tamil (I'm sure most kids wont grasp as much... they use talk english and they walk english!)
cheers,
-Suraj
On Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 09:53:28PM -0800, Suraj wrote:
to take a language that seriously? Its only a matter of communication, or is there something very special (minus literature, specialities, etc.,.).
I am sorry to say I disagree with you in this attitude. Do you have the same attitude towards our country also (A place to live, work ... ). Mother Tongue is connected to our culture/life ..., at least to me. It is like a Goddess (to me).
Don't know this thread is becoming OT here. We can have personal mails, I think.
Regards
Suraj
Whats the point in going to any modern english-medium school and talking in Tamil
`swathanthra software' is good enough. I know a Malayalee guy who was born and brought up in Delhi, he knows only English and does not know how to converse in Malayalam. There is no point in ridiculing such guys if they say "Enikku Malayalam Ariyilla". We help them move forward, just like how we helped each other learn more about the GNU....
:)
RMS
- The appropriate equivalent of the word freedom in
Tamil is 'sudanthiram'
`sudanthiram' sounds non-violent but `viduthalai' looks violent, like in `viduthalai puligal'.
Do people agree?
Yes.
Richard Stallman wrote:
rahulsundaram@yahoo.co.in wrote:
- The appropriate equivalent of the word freedom in
Tamil is 'sudanthiram' rather than 'viduthalai' as mentioned here (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html).
Do people agree?
'Sudanthiram' is the more appropriate equivalent in Tamil for 'freedom'. 'Viduthalai' means release from bondage. Since the point is to find an equivalent for 'free software', we may have to search further.
In Tamil, software is called 'menporul'. 'men' is derived from 'menmai' meaning 'soft', and 'pourl' meaning 'meaning', 'substance', or 'wares'. Free Software could be called 'sudanthira menporul' but does not sound good. 'ilavasam' exactly means free without price, and 'ilavasa menporul' is not the expression we would want to use.
Freedom without restrictions is often conveyed with 'kattatra sudanthiram'.
'kattatra menporul' would be closest equivalent to 'free software' in Tamil.
'kattu' means 'restriction' and 'kattatra' means 'without restriction'. The root meaning of 'kattu' is to tie together, to bond together, and this results in a 'construction'. By constructing, we restrict and control. 'kattu maram' (catamaran - in English) means the raft or float of logs (maram) tied side by side. 'kattidam' is naturally a building. Well, we can build may words and expressions this way with 'kattu' [pun unintended] 'Anai kattu' means a dam - a restriction that stores water. But freedom is more meaningful without restrictions, and the adage is therefore 'kattatra sudanthiram' - freedom without restrictions. Likewise, 'kattatra menporul' - software without restrictions - could be a suitable equivant for 'free software'.
Every Tamil probably has a poet hiding in him, and 'kattatra menporul' would allow lot of play with words. 'kattu' means to build, to compose, to bundle, to pack, firm, solid, and enjoys many more meanings that could convey various aspects of free software. 'kattatra menporul' could directly mean the (unbuilt!) source code, that we usually download and build. 'kattum' means reasonable and affordable.
'kattatra menporul kattu' - free software package 'kattatra menporul namakku kattum' - free software is reasonable and suits us. 'kattana menporul' - this is solid (and even attractive!) code
Is there a better expression than 'kattatra menporul' for 'free software' in Tamil?
Ramanraj posts:
Free Software could be called 'sudanthira menporul' but does not sound good
I think we should not go by what people say about word sounding. I have heard many people say "Look here, GNU/Linux is not a good sounding word. Linux is easier on the tongue. Guhnoo, what is that?" The issue is, does 'sudanthira menporul' convey the meaning like GNU/Linux. Immediately upon seeing the word GNU/Linux, we are reminded about Free software and why the GNU Project was started for.
The word we choose for Free software should convey a message, like what GNU/Linux does for `freedom in computing'.
Raghavendra Bhat wrote:
I think we should not go by what people say about word sounding.
It is not merely that, but also the meaning it conveys. 'Sudandira menporul' conveys exactly the same meaning as "Freedom Software" and that is why I suggested 'kattatra menporul'- software that is free without restrictions.
I am sure you agree that Tamil is a very precise language with very deep roots. In English, when we don't want to budge from our position, we may say, "I won't budge an inch". In Tamil, we could say something like, "I won't budge an immi" where immi is a fraction precisely equal to 1/1075200. Were ancient Tamils using some kind of octal system? Consider this: kal = 1/4; araikkal=1/8; veesam=1/16; kani=1/80; mundhiri=1/320; keelarai=1/640; keelveesam= 1/5120; keelairaikal=1/2560; keelmundhiri=1/102400 etc. I am sure there ought to be a precise expression in Tamil, that already exists, and elegantly conveys the substance of free software.
Tamil writer Sujatha openly advocates free software, and uses the expression 'open source' literally in Tamil. The zha Tamil PC team working on Tamil i10n for those who want to use *only* Tamil, prefix the unique Tamil zha to OpenOffice, KDE etc and are making it freely available to the Tamil world. visit: http://www.zhakanini.org/ As long as people understand that it is free software, any reference that picks up popularity is fine. But, do we want free software to be known as 'open source' in Tamil? A more elegant expression than 'sudanthira menporul' or 'kattatra menporul' may be possible and available in Tamil for 'free software'. I am only requesting if there are better options. For all I know, computers running on free software may eventually be called as 'zha kanini' by a majority of Tamils.
Tamil is more suitable language from an AI point of view because of very strong root words, and once l18n projects mature, we may have very interesting programs in Tamil. Machine translations and machine 'understanding' of Tamil text ought to be easier than with any other language. The strength lies in the careful evolution of words from strong root words. That is why, more attention need to be paid when new concepts are taken to the Tamil world.
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