Now the cat is out of bag. It is clear from the statement from Board of directors that the on going battle against the Kochi conference got the covert and overt blessing from the whole board of FSF though some of them participating in the conference. The name Free Software Foundation (FSF) and its emblem, the wheel symbol might have be patented by FSF in any of Indian Patent office if not in US and the ban imposed by FSF, not to use the name FSF is understandable but the FSF cannot extend its territory to impose a ban on others not to use the term Free Software.
The point no 11 state that the FSF India is willing to accept monetary or other support from any source so long as it comes without any strings attached and FSF India reserves the right to criticize any organization that, according to it, acts against the interests of the Free Software movement, irrespective of whether they have been supporting FSF India in any manner. This policy itself is flawed. When you get the fund from an organization and got the right to criticize it, what kind of ethics it is. Ethics courses conducted in many universities clearly guide that the way to handle such kind of conflict of interest is not to get fund from the donor who is about to be criticized. However you may come out with a theory that the money the donor earned was from the knowledge of the people who are working with them which is supposed to be in public domain. I understand that, based on the above policy, FSF, Boston has accepted fund from the same Novell. If you apply the same policy to the organizers of Kochi conference, you have no ground to oppose the organisers who got fund from Novell. I want to ask the question from you whether any such protest was organized by FSF Boston after getting fund from Novell.
The point no. 5 state that it is opposing the policies of CPI(M) led government IKM supported propriety software in Kerala. Before registering such protest with the CPI(M) government, did you ask them what constraints they have in implementing free software in their activities or why do they support IKM supported propriety software? Did you register such protest with all other state governments who are supporting propriety software? Why do you choose CPI(M) led governments alone?
The point no. 11 clearly states that the FSF governing body is not a democratic body and it will nominate a person into the body like a guru anoints his shisya as in Sankara Mutt. When you don't follow any democratic norms, what point you have against the organisers of the Kochi conference to state that the authorities stopped the protesters in an authoritarian and undemocratic manner as mentioned in point 9.
The point no 6 states that FSF doesn't have campaign against Novell which implies that it is nothing to do with the boycott Novell campaign at Kochi conference. You say Novell is contributing to Free software but many of the Novell's action put the free software community's and the user's freedom at risk. It implies that Novel is very good as they are contributing to free software but some of their actions embarrass the free software community. This position eliminates your option of boycott Novel campaign. The only option left before you is to talk to Novell as they are your fellow traveler according to your statement and advise them not to embarrass the free software community. Then why do you poke your nose with the boycott novel organized by somebody who doesn't have any connection with FSF like FSF-TN or the organisers of Kochi conference and state that it was stopped undemocratically.
Did you think the way the protesters did their job is legitimate? What right they have to deface exhibit material displayed by the organisers. It is like defacing the billboards of shops which was not written in Marathi by Raj Thakery's Navnirman Sena. It is common occurrence that many times violence took place in many places of our country when a political party pasted a poster over which the rival political party pastes another poster. The organisers approach the CUSAT authorities and got due permission from them to conduct the conference explaining the details of the activities they are going to have in the conference. If the protesters want to have some activities inside CUSAT, they should have approached the CUSAT authorities and got due permission to carry out their Boycott Novell campaign, whatever it may be like pasting posters or handbills or protest demonstration. If I be in a position of CUSAT authorities, I would not allow two activities simultaneously took place in my campus which are opposite in nature and this is what it was precisely done by CUSAT authorities. How does it be called undemocratic? When you have difference with the organisers, the way it was conducted you have no right to disturb their activities, you can organise your protest action at some other place.
When you say that FSF is not a mass movement, what business you have with the organizers of Koch conference who wish to take free software to mass level? You got irked by the success of the organisers who could able to organise a huge mass and felt that the free software is your private property and was stolen by the organisers, and instigated a section of people to organise the protest Novell Campaign which is a knee jerk reaction on the part of FSF.
- Arvind
--- On *Fri, 11/28/08, Arun M arun@gnu.org.in* wrote:
From: Arun M arun@gnu.org.in Subject: [Fsf-friends] Statement of FSF India board on recent incidents To: "fsf-friends" fsf-friends@mm.gnu.org.in Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 8:39 PM
Dear Friends
Please find FSF India's statement on recent developments.
http://www.gnu.org.in/board-statement-on-recent-issues
I hope this addresses some, if not all, the questions. More documents will be published in the coming days.
regards arun
_______________________________________________ Fsf-friends mailing listFsf-friends@mm.gnu.org.inhttp://mm.gnu.org.in/mailman/listinfo/fsf-friends
This is very interesting. You say some cat has come out of some bag. I don't understand what the cat is and where the bag is. The FSF India objected when the name "Second National Convention" was used because we believe that the first conference was convened by FSF India and others. We objected to someone else organising the second in the series even without informing us. You call that "war"?
Subsequently, the organisers changed the name and some of us who were invited decided to participate, though FSF India was not involved in organising the conference. You call that "war"? You mean, we should not have participated?
Hope you understand that a symbol cannot be patented. And I hope that you understand that when the logo of an organisation is used, it normally means that the organisation is involved or it has approved the use of the logo. Otherwise there is no purpose for a logo. Who has imposed a ban on the term Free Software? Please explain.
You say that if an organisation accepts money from another, then the one that accepts money should not criticise the donor. This is absolute nonsense. This can happen only when the money is paid with the intention of silencing the receiver. Please be clear about it. FSF India will not accept money with conditions attached. That is what we understand about ethics. Not changing our stand when someone pays. Or supports in any other manner. Only those who are willing to support under this condition needs to. We don't ask money from people who do not accept our stand. If someone willingly gives money, or support, we will accept it. That does not change our stand on any matter. We are not coming out with any other theory. We have made it clear that neither FSF nor FSF India has a Boycott Novell campaign. Our protest was against the suppression of a democratic form of protest against Novell. When the freedom of speech is denied, what is the point in speaking about the freedom of software?
We objected to IKM using proprietary software, and we have also written letters about various other governments opting for proprietary software. The protest against IKM was stronger because there is a stronger FS movement in Kerala compared to other places. And why do you pick only on these things? We have been supporting the IT@School project in Kerala even since it decided to use Free Software, and continue that support even today. We have been highly appreciative of the decision of the Kerala government to promote Free Software and have been providing all support that we can. Why do you see only one side and start criticising?
We have explained the accusation of being "undemocratic" in another thread, and I don't propose to repeat it here.
If you want to see positive changes in FSF India, be positive in your criticism rather than simply throwing allegations. If your intention is to tarnish the image of FSF India (and, as it appears, FSF Boston also) please go ahead.
Best Sasi
On Sun, 2008-11-30 at 12:41 +0530, Arvind Kumar Chinniah wrote:
Now the cat is out of bag. It is clear from the statement from Board of directors that the on going battle against the Kochi conference got the covert and overt blessing from the whole board of FSF though some of them participating in the conference. The name Free Software Foundation (FSF) and its emblem, the wheel symbol might have be patented by FSF in any of Indian Patent office if not in US and the ban imposed by FSF, not to use the name FSF is understandable but the FSF cannot extend its territory to impose a ban on others not to use the term Free Software.
On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 1:50 PM, V. Sasi Kumar sasi.fsf@gmail.com wrote:
You say that if an organisation accepts money from another, then the one that accepts money should not criticise the donor. This is absolute nonsense.
... and ...
FSF India will not accept money with conditions attached.
... and ...
Only those who are willing to support under this condition needs to. We don't ask money from people who do not accept our stand. If someone willingly gives money, or support, we will accept it.
Amazingly, these are from the same paragraph. When FSFI accepts money there are not strings attached, but when some one wants to donate they need to accept a stand. Thats a nice deal.
We objected to IKM using proprietary software, and we have also written
letters about various other governments opting for proprietary software.
No one ever knew when these happened. Lets hope the letters were written 'to' the governments and not 'about' the governments. How many responded and what corrective actions were taken? Why is everything made known only when asked like this? Is it because its a company with 'limited liabilities'?
The protest against IKM was stronger because there is a stronger FS
movement in Kerala compared to other places.
There are strong FS movement in other places also. Why is that we are not putting efforts to make other states to turn to Free Software? Why only on those which themselves have already announced their support to Free Software?
We have explained the accusation of being "undemocratic" in another
thread, and I don't propose to repeat it here.
That was hardly an explanation. When one doesn't believe in democracy in functioning itself, how can one even think of a 'democratic protest' without properly exercising their freedom of speech. Unfortunately, when democracy and freedom of speech is typecast only to 'protests', all kinds of cats are bound to jump out.
-- Sarath M S
On Sun, 2008-11-30 at 14:54 +0530, sarath ms wrote:
Amazingly, these are from the same paragraph. When FSFI accepts money there are not strings attached, but when some one wants to donate they need to accept a stand. Thats a nice deal.
Yes. FSF and FSF India are organisations that advocate an ideology. We are not willing to compromise on it. If you feel that this ideology is good, you are free to donate money or help them in popularising it. There would, of course, be plenty of companies willing to give money if we are willing to compromise on our stand. If our intention was to make money, that would be the best way. Sorry, we don't do that. Our freedom is not for sale.
We objected to IKM using proprietary software, and we have also written letters about various other governments opting for proprietary software.No one ever knew when these happened.
Sorry, a lot of people on this list itself know. You also would have known if you had joined the list early. The conflict between IKM and Free Software was an issue that was even discussed in some of the local media.
Lets hope the letters were written 'to' the governments and not 'about' the governments.
Of course. To whom can we write 'about' the government?
How many responded and what corrective actions were taken? Why is everything made known only when asked like this? Is it because its a company with 'limited liabilities'?
These are old stories, and I guess the old material has been removed from the website. We had written to the Government of India too, to adopt Free Software and free formats. We had written to the CSIR, DST and some other organisations to mandate Free Software and to mandate Open Access in scientific publication. Nothing much happened in this matter. We had written to the Kerala counterpart of CSIR too. Nothing happened here either.
For your information, FSF is a section 25 company. It is easy to be sarcastic.
The protest against IKM was stronger because there is a stronger FS movement in Kerala compared to other places.There are strong FS movement in other places also. Why is that we are not putting efforts to make other states to turn to Free Software? Why only on those which themselves have already announced their support to Free Software?
Such movements naturally grow fast in some places. You can ask, "Why was FSFI inaugurated at Thiruvananthapuram, and not in other places?" You could also ask, "Why is the left movement strong only in Bengal, Kerala and Thripura? Why not put effort to make it strong in other places too?" Or, for that matter, "Why is the BJP strong in some states only? Why are they not putting efforts to make it strong in other places too?" I am also looking for an answer to questions like these. If you are able to find out the answer, please let me also know.
And let me remind you, the support for Free Software from the government of Kerala did not suddenly appear from no where. It was the result of the efforts put in by the community and FSFI. Things happened the other way around, Sarath. And we are especially thankful to the current Chief Minister for having taken an interest in Free Software and for promoting it.
We have explained the accusation of being "undemocratic" in another thread, and I don't propose to repeat it here.That was hardly an explanation. When one doesn't believe in democracy in functioning itself, how can one even think of a 'democratic protest' without properly exercising their freedom of speech. Unfortunately, when democracy and freedom of speech is typecast only to 'protests', all kinds of cats are bound to jump out.
Yes, yes. We seem to be seeing new cats around. Just wondering where the bags came from.
Best
2008/11/29 Arvind Kumar Chinniah arvindkumar.c@gmail.com:
Hey welcome to the Free Software Community!! (may be I have a bad memory, I don't seem to have seen your mails here earlier)
Now the cat is out of bag. It is clear from the statement from Board of directors that the on going battle against the Kochi conference got the covert and overt blessing from the whole board of FSF though some of them participating in the conference. The name Free Software Foundation (FSF) and its emblem, the wheel symbol might have be patented by FSF in any of Indian Patent office if not in US and the ban imposed by FSF, not to use the name FSF is understandable but the FSF cannot extend its territory to impose a ban on others not to use the term Free Software.
I hope you will learn the difference between copyrights, patents, trademarks and animal breeders rights so that you won't be embarrassed to know you are not talking about animal rights when there is a case of copyright violation. You might have been thinking about trademarks as names and logos are protected under trademark law. You could also claim copyright to the logo but not patents or animal breeders right. Patents are given for specific ideas and I am not familiar with rights of animal breeders.
The point no 11 state that the FSF India is willing to accept monetary or other support from any source so long as it comes without any strings attached and FSF India reserves the right to criticize any organization that, according to it, acts against the interests of the Free Software movement, irrespective of whether they have been supporting FSF India in any manner. This policy itself is flawed. When you get the fund from an organization and got the right to criticize it, what kind of ethics it is.
May be that was the ethics driving some organizers of the Kochi conference. How can we let someone criticize our masters.
Ethics courses conducted in many universities clearly guide that the way to handle such kind of conflict of interest is not to get fund from the donor
It shows a weakness in your ability to follow your ideals, irrespective of someone's influence.
who is about to be criticized. However you may come out with a theory that the money the donor earned was from the knowledge of the people who are working with them which is supposed to be in public domain. I understand that, based on the above policy, FSF, Boston has accepted fund from the same Novell. If you apply the same policy to the organizers of Kochi conference, you have no ground to oppose the organisers who got fund from Novell. I want to ask the question from you whether any such protest was organized by FSF Boston after getting fund from Novell.
But FSF Boston did not act on the orders from Novell. A key difference from some of the organizers who were playing flute to please their masters.
The point no. 5 state that it is opposing the policies of CPI(M) led government IKM supported propriety software in Kerala. Before registering such protest with the CPI(M) government, did you ask them what constraints they have in implementing free software in their activities or why do they support IKM supported propriety software? Did you register such protest with all other state governments who are supporting propriety software? Why do you choose CPI(M) led governments alone?
Because CPI(M) was acting against their own stated policy of supporting Free Software. it would have been better if these governments followed policies of their own party. And also the "so called Free Software mass mobilizers" stop supporting decisions of their parties against their own stated policies.
The point no. 11 clearly states that the FSF governing body is not a democratic body and it will nominate a person into the body like a guru anoints his shisya as in Sankara Mutt. When you don't follow any democratic norms, what point you have against the organisers of the Kochi conference to state that the authorities stopped the protesters in an authoritarian and undemocratic manner as mentioned in point 9.
Can someone outside FSF India ask the same question?
The point no 6 states that FSF doesn't have campaign against Novell which implies that it is nothing to do with the boycott Novell campaign at Kochi conference. You say Novell is contributing to Free software but many of the Novell's action put the free software community's and the user's freedom at risk. It implies that Novel is very good as they are contributing to free software but some of their actions embarrass the free software community.
Donating money to a temple does not absolve you of robing a bank.
This position eliminates your option of boycott Novel campaign. The only option left before you is to talk to Novell as they are your fellow traveler according to your statement and advise them not to embarrass the free software community. Then why do you poke your nose with the boycott novel organized by somebody who doesn't have any connection with FSF like FSF-TN or the organisers of Kochi conference and state that it was stopped undemocratically.
The protest was not organized by FSF India.
Did you think the way the protesters did their job is legitimate? What right they have to deface exhibit material displayed by the organisers. It is like
Yeah. It really put the some of the organizes in a bad shape in front of their master.
defacing the billboards of shops which was not written in Marathi by Raj Thakery's Navnirman Sena. It is common occurrence that many times violence took place in many places of our country when a political party pasted a poster over which the rival political party pastes another poster. The
The question here who is rival here in a Free Software conference?
organisers approach the CUSAT authorities and got due permission from them to conduct the conference explaining the details of the activities they are going to have in the conference. If the protesters want to have some activities inside CUSAT, they should have approached the CUSAT authorities and got due permission to carry out their Boycott Novell campaign, whatever it may be like pasting posters or handbills or protest demonstration. If I
How innocent the protesters to have believed they would get a red carpet welcome ina Free Software conference. They should have known better, how difficult it made the position for some organizers in front of their master. They would cry when their master raises his voice or stare his eyes at them.
be in a position of CUSAT authorities, I would not allow two activities simultaneously took place in my campus which are opposite in nature and this is what it was precisely done by CUSAT authorities. How does it be called
How true? Won't the protesters know, Novell would find it irritating and opposing them?
undemocratic? When you have difference with the organisers, the way it was conducted you have no right to disturb their activities, you can organise your protest action at some other place.
Yeah. It was the protesters mistake to have taken the name of the conference at its face value. They should have known better the loyalty of some of the organizers to their master is unquestionable.
When you say that FSF is not a mass movement, what business you have with the organizers of Koch conference who wish to take free software to mass
True. Business is Novell. Business is important for Novell, even it were to mean betraying the community. Community, what is it? Business is money. Money is business.
level? You got irked by the success of the organisers who could able to organise a huge mass and felt that the free software is your private property and was stolen by the organisers, and instigated a section of people to organise the protest Novell Campaign which is a knee jerk reaction on the part of FSF.
Yeah. They should have known better. Working with the community for years did not give them any wisdom that some of the very fresh newbie organizers have got. You gotta respect your master - who give you money. When would they learn all these basic tricks?
- Arvind
Cheers Praveen
2008/11/29 Arvind Kumar Chinniah arvindkumar.c@gmail.com:
Now the cat is out of bag.
Yeah. I can see so many cats out of their bags. I am very concerned about Animal Breeder's rights.
- Praveen
THe phrase Cat is out of the Bag means "The actual motive of FSF India, is to make the community to be owned property, rather than to be a mass movement. THis is clearly seen in the motive of your statement. " The topic seem to move away from the actual reason to a different direction.
PS: I dont know why Praveen is interested in moving behind animals for the Breed Rights :). Anyway thats his freedom of thought.
On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 2:39 PM, Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com wrote:
2008/11/29 Arvind Kumar Chinniah arvindkumar.c@gmail.com:
Now the cat is out of bag.
Yeah. I can see so many cats out of their bags. I am very concerned about Animal Breeder's rights.
- Praveen
-- പ്രവീണ് അരിമ്പ്രത്തൊടിയില് <GPLv2> I know my rights; I want my phone call! <DRM> What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak? (as seen on /.) Join The DRM Elimination Crew Now! http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/Anti-DRM-Campaign
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Arvind Kumar Chinniah -
Praveen A -
sarath ms -
V. Sasi Kumar