Fsf-friends April 2003

fsf-friends@gnu.org.in

27 participants
61 discussions

Re: [Fsf-friends] Re: Forming FSUGs in the country

by Arko Provo Mukherjee

On Sun, 2003-04-13 at 09:46, Nagarjuna G. wrote: > > Yes, why dont you draft the letter and after corrections if any > FSF-India will send the letters to the groups. > > Nagarjuna My Board Exams are going on. But I shall definitely try to find out some time to do it. In the mean time, it is also important to select cities and groups. Regards Arko

20 years, 8 months

Forming FSUGs in the country

by Arko Provo Mukherjee

Hello guys, Well, we all know that there are ilugs/iglugs throughout the country. We can start FSUGS(Free Software User Group) in the main cities and invite people to join. They can run parallelly along with the ILUGS/IGLUGS. Many people in the ILUGS don't believe in Free Software philosophy. Thus establishing FSUG in different cities will help us to create user groups supporting free software including GNU/Linux, BSD etc. The coordinators of the mailing lists will be people from FSF=INDIA. That way we can set policies. I think this will also help in strengthening FSF-INDIA and also in spreading FREEDOM MATTERS. We can give URLS to them, like www.fsf.org.in/fsug/cal etc. This will enable us to create country wide user groups under our control. I know that we already have a few FSUGs in the country, like in Chennai. We can invite them to join us. Waiting for comments and suggestions. Regards Arko

20 years, 8 months

a post from Pune list

by Kanti Jadia

On Sunday 13 April 2003 01:06, zoyd wrote: >I'm sorry for not being attentive. I read through this thread >but >couldn't understand why the fonts that Ravi has made can't be >released >under the GPL? > >And how much would the fonts cost for them to be released in the >GPL. Thing is since it is open type font, it involves scripting, which is like programming. So it is rather a piece of program than artwork. And I can perfectly understand his hesitation to release it under GPL. Shridhar ---------------------------------- http://plug.org.in/pipermail/plug-mail/2003-April/007638.html ---------------------------------- Can somebody comment on this. regards Kanti ----------------------------------------- Enjoy your Freedom,use GNU/Linux. http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________________ Odomos - the only mosquito protection outside 4 walls - Click here to know more! http://r.rediff.com/r?http://clients.rediff.com/odomos/Odomos.htm&&odomos&&…

20 years, 8 months

Re: ? Is the GPL completely misunderstood?

by Frederick Noronha (FN)

SUCH views only further the ideology of proprietorial software, while confusing the subject and furthering the man-works-for-money-alone idea. It also flies in the face of thousands of excellent programmers chosing the GPL as their licence of choice. Perhaps someone needs to be countering this. FN > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 23:07:00 -0800 (PST) > From: Sukrit D <sd_root(a)yahoo.com> > To: little_league(a)yahoogroups.com > Cc: Kanhaiya Dalmia <dalmiag(a)vsnl.net>, > Chennai ILUG <ilugc(a)aero.iitm.ernet.in> > Subject: [Ilugc] Is the GPL completely misunderstood? > > Is the GPL completely misunderstood? > > What is the GPL? > > The GPL, GNU General Public License, is a license > boilerplate that the FSF, Free Software Foundation, > has put forward to be adopted by software developers > that are creating software. The GPL has some > fundamental flaws that may actually make one wonder if > people using the GPL license really understand the > license. > > First, one must understand that the ideals behind the > GPL are that software should be 'free', meaning that > you should be able to buy it, modify it, redistribute > it, support it, etc. Many people, myself included, > didn't really understand the license agreement and it > is obvious that the FSF must get dozens of questions > like that because they hide behind a boilerplate link > to a page on their site. > > Therein lies one major hurdle. Another problem is that > many people are under the impression that if it is > GPL, the software should carry no cost. The FSF says > that nothing could be further from the truth, however, > the GPL ingeniously assures this because of its > distribution clause. The first person to buy an > application is generously allowed to distribute the > code and the source, removing any financial incentive > from original software author. > > Even the FSF has no idea how to build a business > around software that is released GPL. I posed that > question, and their response was fuzzy and vague. It > was suggested that I run a different division to fund > the software development division. As a business > owner, why run a division that is a cost center if it > isn't needed. > > With that in mind, lets consider a few scenarios > dealing with GPL software. The FSF clearly states that > someone can charge whatever amount they want for > software and the source code. So, you take a contract > with a company to develop software, do the right thing > and release it GPL. You sell it to your client for > $500, thinking, I spent dozens of hours writing this, > I'll put a reasonable cost on there so that I can > resell hundreds of them. > > Fair enough. > > But, what happens if I, as a client, buy your software > along with the source and decide, hey, this is good > stuff, let me sell it for $100 and flood the market. > What happens to your income? It is gone. Someone else > is making the money off your product -- your efforts. > Even better, I can decide to distribute the software > at no cost. And what you have to show for it is a > license that allows your clients to do precisely that. > Freedom. > > Lets analyze the flip side. Lets say that you decide > to write the software and charge the client for every > minute of your work. The client ends up with a > software product that cost them $40000. Now, you > decide that you want to resell that software. What > price do you put on it knowing that your next client > could decide to distribute it? If you cut the price > too much, the client that paid you to do the > development won't rehire you since you have given his > competitor the tools to compete more easily. Companies > generally dislike funding software development for > their competitors. > > How about an idea you have that will revolutionize the > world. Don't release that under GPL, there is no > intellectual property protection. Have some secret way > of doing something that is better than the way it is > currently being done? Might as well just get rid of > your competitive edge because the GPL will strip you > of any rights you might have to that. > > See, the GPL in its Marxist form is a fine thought, > but what does it really do? > > The GPL creates hundreds of software products that are > mimic's of their commercial counterpart, many of which > are poor imitations. Yes, I know, the market is new > and there are years of existing software development > to catch up with. But, most of these software > developers have a job and do this as a hobby or are > paid by a company to write software released under the > GPL. But what have we done? We've turned over > development to armchair developers. This isn't to say > that there aren't good software projects developed > under GPL, but they are in the minority. > > Without singling out any application, there is a > software package that makes it truly evident that the > programmers have no concept what the finished product > is supposed to do or what the program they are > mimicing actually does. It appears as if they have > gotten together to develop a product to mimic a > Microsoft product, pushed all of the buttons to see > what the results are, and tried to imitate the > actions. Push a button and see no visible result? Who > knows how that button is supposed to work. We'll leave > it in, but there's no code behind it. There is a lot > of software that mimic's Microsoft, and yet, time > after time, these are the same people that complain > about Microsoft and what they do wrong. Then, to top > it off, since they released it GPL, they ask for > donations. Wait? Can't Freedom have a price? > > These authors don't know that they can charge money > for their software and still release it GPL. Of > course, after the first client, it will get > redistributed at some nominal cost or free. Imagine, > the first person that needs a program will buy it and > then post it on the net for people to get without > cost. Almost no different than the Commercial software > market as it exists today. Ok, chalk up one licensed > user that paid for the software. Authors ask for > donations or have service contracts. Some applications > are decidedly cryptic just so you have to buy the > service contract or installation help. Why? Because > the author needs to make some money for their efforts > and have a financial reward that justifies the > continued development of the project. > > Most of the people writing GPL software probably have > never read the license. How can you expect them to? > Everyone is told to slap the boilerplate agreement at > the top because 'GPL good, other license bad,' but how > many people that use the license have actually read > it? > > The GPL has created a dearth of poorly conceived, > poorly maintained, poorly written software. There are > also quite a few good GPL applications. Suffice it to > say, that most of the applications that are good and > are GPL usually have corporate roots. I surmise that > most of the companies releasing software under the GPL > are not releasing their code under the GPL for the > right reasons. > > The people that slam Microsoft for all that it is are > the same ones mimicing Microsoft's applications. > Certain applications are designed specifically to look > like Microsoft, which is the sincerest form of > flattery. Yet, people slam Microsoft because they > don't innovate. Well, look at most of the GPL software > that mimic's what is out there already? Where is the > innovation in that? That's what I thought. > > I don't have a problem with the GPL -- it just doesn't > happen to be my license of choice. I evaluated the > licenses and felt that the GPL didn't protect me or my > clients well enough. Most of the code my company > produces is released under an Open Source license. > Open Source I don't mind. Draconian terms and > conditions that sacrifice my rights as an author, or > my clients rights, or make it easy for people to avoid > compensating me for my efforts is where I have a > problem. > > <Sarcasm> > Unlike most GPL software authors, I am not > independently wealthy. I don't have a trust fund > handing me money every month. I don't have a rich > family writing a check to keep me locked away in a > basement churning out code. I don't have a fellowship > with an educational institution or sponsorship from a > big corporation so that I jet around the world > espousing the ideals, writing and releasing code under > the GPL. > </Sarcasm> > > If you develop software that allows someone to make > millions of dollars from your efforts, why should you > not be entitled to some of that money? What if you > write the next killer ap, distribute it, someone else > finds a VC, gets capital, goes public, gets rich -- > all on your idea? Notoriety is fine, but your bank > doesn't accept that when you are paying your mortgage. > > > In short, I don't believe the GPL serves the software > development community in the best possible manner. By > virtue, it eliminates financial motivation from those > writing software and drives those development costs on > existing industry. You may volunteer your time, but > your employer ultimately finances your ability to have > the time to write that code. Who really carries the > true development cost of the software? > > If you want the dream of Linux on the desktop to take > off more quickly, take the time to explain how a > company developing GPL software can protect itself and > earn money to pay its programmers and support staff. > If you work for a company writing GPL software, take > some time to think where your salary ultimately comes > from. Help develop a business plan to allow companies > to develop software and release the products under an > Open Source license that ensures the viability of the > company. If you want > > Next time you write an application, give some thought > to your licensing. A good place to start reading the > different licenses is Open Source.Org. > > --Chris > > http://daviesinc.com/gpl.rxml > > __________________________________________________ > -- Frederick Noronha : http://www.fredericknoronha.net : When we speak of free Freelance Journalist : http://www.bytesforall.org : software we refer to Ph 0091.832.2409490 : Cell 0 9822 122436 : freedom, not price.

20 years, 8 months

Re: [Fsf-friends] Forming FSUGs in the country

by Imran William Smith

Regardless of the merits of FSUGs vs LUGs, in case anyone is interested to find their nearest group, there is a list here: http://www.asiaosc.org/enwiki/page/India.html Feel free to edit the page if you wish, it's a wiki. Imran -- Asian Open Source Centre | It's most certainly GNU/Linux, www.AsiaOSC.org | not Linux. Read more at | http://www.gnu.org

20 years, 8 months

Status of OpenOffice (hindi is planned)

by Kanti Jadia

OpenOffice.org 1.1Beta Features 2003-03-25 To download OpenOffice.org 1.1 Beta and for more information about the release please visit the download center. General * The splash screen now has a progress bar. * PDF export. * Ability to mail a document as PDF. * DocBook XML import/export. * Support for mobile device formats (AportisDoc (Palm),Pocket Word and Pocket Excel). * Support for exporting as a flat XML file. * XHTML export. * OpenOffice.org ActiveX Control (Windows only). * Additional property pages for OpenOffice.org file types in Windows Explorer. * Accessibility support. * Improved configurability of dialogs and toolbars. * Configurable font for HTML and BASIC source code. * Improved online help (F1). * Autodetection of newly installed languages for spellchecker, thesaurus and hyphenator. * Support for copy/paste of bitmap graphics on Unix. * A new java-native-uno bridge with up to 10 times better performance. * Improved URL autocompletion in hyperlink dialog. * The context menu now contains 'Open Hyperlink' if opened on a URL. * Locking of user installations against accesses from multiple machines with shared directories. * Command line tools and an API for importing configuration data into the backend. * Document windows are now always created in a cascade to avoid new window completely overlapping the old one. * Support for registering add-ons and accessing add-ons via an auto-generated menu. * New FTP file access component. * The registration dialog will now display instead of addressbook data source selection on first run. * Accessibility support for Windows * Support for recovering slightly damaged OpenOffice.org files. * Detection of a misconfigured Java installation. * New ppd file for generic postscript printing with type42 font support. * Support for configuring font rendering via environment variables. Internationalization * support for Complex Text Layout (CTL) and vertical writing languages such as Thai, Hindi, Arabic and Hebrew. * Support for various 8-bit Arabic and Hebrew text encodings / code pages. * Support for the KOI8_U encoding. * New CTL options tab in language options dialog. * Rescue mode support for BiDi/CTL with X11 fonts. * Sequence Input Checking (SIC) for languages like Thai and Hindi. * Initial glyph fallback support. Writer * Enhanced footnote support. * Improved hyperlink support for TOCs. * Improved keyboard handling in toolboxes. * Plain text files will now be imported using a non-proportional font. Draw/Impress * Alternative language support for spell check on text drawing object. * SWF (Flash) export. Spreadsheet: * Import and export of areas in charts in Excel files that are formatted with bitmaps, textures or hatchings. * The sum button inserts a sum function or a subtotal function, depending on context. Database: * Table control via keyboard navigation in table designer. * Added ability to switch off brackets for bibliography fields. * New database type in data source administration dialog - MySQL. * Ability to add labels to field names in the report wizard. * A data source can now use any character set known to OpenOffice.org. * UI support for user installed database drivers. ----------------------------------------- Enjoy your Freedom,use GNU/Linux. http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________________ Odomos - the only mosquito protection outside 4 walls - Click here to know more! http://r.rediff.com/r?http://clients.rediff.com/odomos/Odomos.htm&&odomos&&…

20 years, 8 months

SITEWATCH: ILUG-Margao... promoting GNU/Linux in South Goa

by Frederick Noronha (FN)

URL : http://www.ilug-margao.org/html [1]Welcome to India GNU/Linux Users Group--GOA-Margao [2]signup | login ______________ search Topics [All Topics......] [3]Home [4]Photo Gallery [5]Contributions [6]Register! [7]CD Library [8]Feedback Menu � [9]Home � [10]Contributions � [11]Meetings � [12]Members List � [13]Private_Messages � [14]Projects � [15]Surveys � [16]Tutorials � [17]Web Links � [18]Your Account Chat Chat room for the GNU/Linux enthusiasts Nick Name: ____________________ Enter Chat Who's Online Members options: [19]Login [20]Logout [21]Lost password? _________________________________________________________________ [registered2.gif] Registered members [space.gif] Today 1 Yesterda y 0 Overall 66 Latest biker _________________________________________________________________ Become a member? You are Anonymous user. You can register for free by clicking [22]here LinuxWeelyNews �[23]Open Source study by the Swedish Agency for Public Management �[24]PS/PDF file handling vulnerability �[25]LWN.net Weekly Edition for April 10, 2003 �[26]ACLU loses digital copyright battle (News.com) �[27]Open-source battle rages in Oregon (News.com) �[28]This week's Tcl-URL �[29]MySQL 4.1.0 released �[30]Security alert roundup �[31]This week's Python-URL �[32]A Linux open source best practices guide: Applications (ZDNet) [33]read more... About Us Welcome! The Margao GNU/Linux User Group [MGLUG] is a non-profit organization. Margao GLUG's primary aim is to bring together GNU/Linux Users, enthusiasts and professionals so as to discuss and share various issues/ideas pertaining to GNU/Linux. We are a focused group of enthusiasts who want to promote the idea of GNU/Linux and encourage the use of [34]Free Software. Most of the MGLUG members are actively involved in the [35]Goa Schools Computer Project [GSCP]. Newbies who are planning to migrate to GNU/Linux need not worry as we will gladly provide you with a framework and try our best to answer all your queries. For more info, go through the meetings section. Enjoy your stay! Please read the [36]disclaimer before continuing. CD Library! [37]announcements The much awaited CD library is now in place. [38]Click here for a listing of the current GNU/Linux software available for sharing. For those of you ordering personal copies, we will try and process the order within 48hrs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by [39]Andrew Suares on Wednesday, February 19 @ 04:27:03 EST Minutes of the meeting held on Saturday 15th '03 [41]meetings_minutes by Frederick Noronha THIS REPORT has to be very brief, because I was myself late for the meeting in Margao last Saturday. Sanil T. was busy doing a demo and talking about Elx Linux (the distro from Hyderabad) when one intruded. Amey Hegde, one of the newest members to find this sometimes-infighting-prone and sometimes-very-helpful network of GNU/Linux enthusiasts. Apparently he works @ Controlnet, not far from ArvindC, but was not aware of this group till recently. How do we build more awareness about those who would like to be our members but just don't know what we do? note: Click on Readmore to read the whole story ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by [42]Andrew Suares on Wednesday, February 19 @ 03:38:10 EST (8 reads) GNU/Linux Frequently Asked Questions [45]gnu_related by Richard Stallman When people see that we use and recommend the name GNU/Linux for a system that many others call just "Linux", they ask many questions. Here are common questions, and our answers. * Why do you call it GNU/Linux and not Linux? * Why is this issue important? * How did it come about that most people call the system "Linux"? * What is the difference between an operating ystem and a kernel? * The problem with "GNU/Linux" is that it is too long. How about recommending a shorter name? * Should the GNU/[name] convention be applied to all programs that are GPL'ed? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by [46]Andrew Suares on Friday, December 27 @ 06:48:54 EST (13 reads) ([47]Read More... | 37174 bytes more | [48]Read More... | Score: 0) Tutorials Has just been uploaded [49]announcements Tutorials which will help Newbies shift to Linux.....Dual Boot with Windows, Some Myths about linux..... Bash scripting and much much more...Just click on Tutorials ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by [50]arvind clemente on Monday, December 02 @ 05:01:06 EST (10 reads) Contribution by our GLUG Members added [52]announcements You can now have tremendous help in configuring / compiling different packages under GNU/LINUX. You dont have to expirement.... just follow the already documented ccontributions..... Its just a click away...For details Just Click Contributions in our Main Home Page ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by [53]arvind clemente on Friday, November 22 @ 00:10:03 EST (16 reads) Private Messaging [56]announcements Due to popular demand, the private messaging feature has been added! To use it, you have to be registered. After logging in, click on the members list, select the member name and click 'Send Private Message' You will be automatically notified of incoming PM's. To login automatically during subsequent visits, enable the cookies option for this site. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------ Posted by [57]andrew suares on Wednesday, November 20 @ 11:36:41 EST (6 reads) ILUG-Margao is back! [60]announcements ILUG-Margao is back! We have shifted over to a web portal system. It was getting a bit difficult to manage and add new content. After some unexpected issues with PHP-Nuke and a lot of customising, the site is up and running. Everything seems to be running fine. However, if you come across any any bugs/404 errors, please inform us. Key Highlights:- Added Contributions, Projects & Tutorials sections No more cross browser compatibility issues! Pages are displayed using w3c standards. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by [61]Andrew Suares on Monday, November 18 @ 07:35:15 EST (24 reads) Survey Which is your favourite distro? (_) RedHat (_) Mandrake (_) Debian (_) SUSE (_) Gentoo (_) Others Don't have an account yet? You can [98]create one. As registered user you have some advantages like theme manager, comments configuration and post comments with your name. [sidebox-bottom.gif] Website maintained and updated by: Arvind Clemente & Andrew Suares

20 years, 8 months

a post which ......

by Kanti Jadia

This was posted by http://slashdot.org/~fliplap. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The problem is, everyone on slashdot would rather just complain on slashdot instead of actually writing thier representative a well worded letter. I was actually thinking about this the other day. What about a slashdot sponsered letter writing compaign that gave people a tangible reward for writing a good letter to thier congress(wo)man. They could have everyone write an email about what really matter to them, any topic, preferably a technological one as thats what scores points around here. Then have them mail them to thier representative and CC a copy to contest(a)slashdot.org as well as post it as a comment. Say, 10 highest rated letters win a free subscription (however many page views that is). The cost would be negligable, but the impact of tons of well worded emails coming from intellegent people would have an amazing impact. So, editors, what do YOU think? --btw, the letters should be worded better than this post. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Further to add my two cents Answers sought How to act in a democracy? Whom to put your views so that they are heard? Get organized in an informal or formal way to protest? regards Kanti ----------------------------------------- Enjoy your Freedom,use GNU/Linux. http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________________ Odomos - the only mosquito protection outside 4 walls - Click here to know more! http://r.rediff.com/r?http://clients.rediff.com/odomos/Odomos.htm&&odomos&&…

20 years, 8 months

Arun Shourie, on FLOSS v.s proprietory

by Frederick Noronha (FN)

---------- Forwarded message ---------- URL : http://www.linuxworld.com/2003/0401.indiaopensource.html India IT minister: No government edict on open source IT official says Indian government will not back open source to the exclusion of proprietary software April 1, 2003 Summary The government is a key buyer of information technology in India, and backers of open-source software were hoping that the Indian government would throw its weight behind open source. By John Ribiero, IDG News Service BANGALORE (IDG News Service) -- The Indian government will not back open-source software to the exclusion of proprietary software, according to Arun Shourie, India's minister for information technology and communications. The government is a key buyer of information technology in the country, and backers of open-source software were hoping that the Indian government would throw its weight behind open source. "In India we always like to think in terms of either-or. The formula we want to adopt instead is 'and also,' and encourage all kinds of software development in the country," Shourie told reporters shortly after the formal launch in Bangalore on Tuesday of the PARAM Padma supercomputer, designed by the government-run Center for Development of Advanced Computing (C-DAC) in Pune [see "[30]India agency offers build-to-order supercomputer" Dec. 17, 2002]. "If there is an important security software that we need urgently, for example, we are more likely to buy it, than spend time deciding whether we should develop it in India in open source," Shourie added. Earlier in his address to the staff of C-DAC, Shourie said that in cases involving national security, it was wiser for government research agencies and laboratories to develop software in-house. However, Shourie clarified later that the decision to import software, or develop the software entirely in-house in open source or on any other platform, would be taken at the level of the specific government agency on a case-by-case basis. "Do not expect a general decision from government on this," Shourie added. Shourie's statement is the first categorical statement by a senior Indian government official in the debate about whether to adopt open-source or proprietary software. The controversy was sparked in November last year during a visit to India by Microsoft Chairman and Chief Software Architect Bill Gates. During his visit to Delhi, Gates announced that his company planned to invest US$400 million in India over the next three years in a number of areas, including computer literacy and localization of its software products. Gates's announcement was seen by analysts as an attempt to pre-empt the Indian government from making a formal decision to adopt open-source software. Gates announced that in addition to contributing software to schools, Microsoft will also assist in training about 80,000 school teachers and 3.5 million students in government-run schools in India. "This 'gift' is no act of generosity," said Richard Stallman, president of the Boston-based Free Software Foundation. Stallman was also in India in November to drum up support for free software, but found that media and government attention had shifted to Gates's high-profile visit. "Giving Microsoft software to school children is like giving them cigarettes -- it is a way to get them hooked, so that once they grow up, they will be a captive market for Microsoft." Microsoft has tried to win over the Indian government to its Government Source Licensing Program (GSLP), but there have been no takers yet in the government, according to informed sources. The GSLP was designed to give government agencies access to Windows source code to develop applications for their own internal use. Last month, Scott McNealy, CEO of Sun Microsystems Inc. in Santa Clara, California, also made a pitch to woo Indian universities and researchers by announcing $300 million in free software and training to promote key Sun technologies in India, such as Java and Sun ONE (Open Net Environment). Though the Indian government will not take sides, some government agencies and laboratories are already using open-source software. The National Association of Software and Service Companies (NASSCOM) in Delhi is assessing the feasibility of using Linux for e-governance projects in India, according to Kiran Karnik, the association's president. "Linux can play an important role in spreading e-governance in India since there would be a need to develop low-cost local language applications," said Karnik. "It can also help in accelerating IT education in schools which today cannot afford high software costs." However, before Linux can be widely deployed, the services and support infrastructure around this platform will have to be developed in the country, according to Karnik. John Ribiero is a Bangalore correspondent for the IDG News Service, a LinuxWorld.com affiliate.

20 years, 8 months

GNU/Linux or Linux

by Kanti Jadia

GNU/Linux GNU/Hurd GNU/unknown ----------------------------------------- Enjoy your Freedom,use GNU/Linux. http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html ----------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________________ Odomos - the only mosquito protection outside 4 walls - Click here to know more! http://r.rediff.com/r?http://clients.rediff.com/odomos/Odomos.htm&&odomos&&…

20 years, 8 months

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Fsf-friends April 2003