Fsf-friends May 2004

fsf-friends@gnu.org.in

23 participants
43 discussions

Debian Weekly News - May 18th, 2004 (fwd)
by Frederick Noronha (FN) 19 May '04

19 May '04

---------- Forwarded message ---------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Debian Weekly News http://www.debian.org/News/weekly/2004/20/ Debian Weekly News - May 18th, 2004 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome to this year's 20th issue of DWN, the weekly newsletter for the Debian community. In an [1]interview Miguel de Icaza [2]said that Debian's community commitment is fantastic, but it is a very hard platform to support for an independent software vendor. Philip Charles also [3]announced new K6 mini [4]iso [5]images. 1. http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=6989 2. http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=6989&page=2 3. http://lists.debian.org/debian-hurd/2004/05/msg00034.html 4. http://na.hurd.gnuab.org/pub/debian-cd/K6/ 5. http://eu.hurd.gnuab.org/pub/debian-cd/K6/ Two Debian Developers died. Debian [6]mourns the loss of two project members. Manuel Estrada Sainz (ranty) and Andrés García (ErConde) were killed in a tragic car accident while returning from the [7]Free Software conference held in Valencia, Spain. The Debian Project honors their good work and strong dedication to Debian and Free Software. The contributions of both Manuel and Andrés will not be forgotten, and other developers will continue their work. 6. http://www.debian.org/News/20040515 7. http://www.lliurex.net/congres/cas/ Status of Java to main Effort. Arnaud Vandyck [8]reported on the progress of moving packages that use Java but can be run without the aid of non-free software from contrib to main. A number of packages have been moved to main and new releases of [9]GNU Classpath, [10]SableVM, and [11]Kaffe promise further steps ahead. Two of the major issues currently being looked at are making [12]gjdoc a proper javadoc replacement and building [13]ant with Free Software only. People wanting to help can start by inspecting packages labeled as unknown on the [14]Java to main wiki. 8. http://lists.debian.org/debian-java/2004/05/msg00023.html 9. http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/classpath.html 10. http://www.sablevm.org/ 11. http://www.kaffe.org/ 12. http://packages.debian.org/gjdoc 13. http://packages.debian.org/ant 14. http://java.debian.net/index.php/MovingJavaToMain Debian powers Binoculars. The world's largest selection of [15]binoculars is powered by Debian GNU/Linux as Jon Thralow [16]reported. The site uses a technology they call dynamically generated HTML. The pages are regenerated every five minutes and pushed to the web server as static pages. This looks similar to the technique used for the Debian website itself with regeneration just more frequently. 15. http://www.binoculars.com/ 16. http://newsvac.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=04/05/12/157257 Status of GNOME 2.6 for unstable. Sebastien Bacher sent in another [17]status report covering GNOME 2.6 in Debian. The reason is to ask the release team for advice regarding the transition to unstable, given the [18]progress the packages have made in the last few weeks. The packages have been [19]tested by many users without any major issues reported. In response Anthony Towns [20]told him that many architectures are still missing and that GNOME is ready when everything has been uploaded to experimental and only the version number needs to be bumped up for unstable. 17. http://lists.debian.org/debian-release/2004/05/msg00064.html 18. http://pkg-gnome.alioth.debian.org/package-status.html 19. http://wiki.debian.net/index.cgi?GnomeTwoDotSixFAQ 20. http://lists.debian.org/debian-release/2004/05/msg00071.html Should Sun use Debian GNU/Linux? David Edmondson [21]argued that Sun should base their GNU/Linux efforts on Debian. A key advantage of Debian is the breadth and depth of applications just an apt-get away. Glynn Foster [22]agreed with him and noted that for the most part Debian 'Just Works'. 21. http://www.dme.org/log/2004/05/14/linux-debian-bad-news 22. http://www.gnome.org/~gman/blog//15052004 Supporting more Features. Eric Dorland [23]wondered how Debian should handle requests to activate compile-time controlled features. He [24]asked to [25]enable deactivated features or split out packages with these features enabled, but the maintainers were concerned by feature-creep and having to maintain more packages than needed. Matthew Palmer [26]suggested to either create new binary packages, to add the features into the existing packages or to make it very easy for the user to rebuild the package to support the optional feature. 23. http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/05/msg00811.html 24. http://bugs.debian.org/222421 25. http://bugs.debian.org/231472 26. http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/05/msg00813.html Removing System Accounts. Stephen Gran [27]wondered how system accounts should be treated upon removal if they were created upon package installation. Wouter Verhelst [28]explained that it may be a good idea to leave the system user since arbitrary files could still be owned by it. 27. http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/05/msg01151.html 28. http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/05/msg01156.html Right of Publicity. Branden Robinson [29]explained why he is annoyed by no-advertising clauses in several licenses. In the United States, there are several legal [30]remedies available to people whose names or likenesses are misappropriated for advertising or promotional purposes. In order to prevent similar misuse no special clause is needed. Branden seeks information on how this is handled in other countries in order discourage no-advertising clauses more actively. 29. http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/05/msg00540.html 30. http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/publicity.html IBM Public License. Frank Lichtenheld [31]stomped over the [32]IBM Public License again and wondered if it is suited for Debian. [33]MJ Ray and [34]Walter Landry raised some concerns. However, this license is already used for [35]postfix as Steven Augart [36]pointed out. 31. http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/05/msg00597.html 32. http://www-124.ibm.com/developerworks/oss/license10.html 33. http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/05/msg00600.html 34. http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/05/msg00603.html 35. http://packages.debian.org/postfix 36. http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/05/msg00617.html Sendmail Open Source License. Richard Nelson [37]reported that a new license for [38]sendmail is discussed and the authors are seeking feedback. In particular they want to know whether the new license is as acceptable as the sendmail 8 license. [39]Henning Makholm and [40]Nathanael Nerode asserted that a license is non-free if one is forced to go to San Francisco to defend ones innocence. 37. http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/05/msg00598.html 38. http://packages.debian.org/sendmail 39. http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/05/msg00636.html 40. http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/05/msg00742.html Concerned about new GPL Version. Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho is [41]concerned about the [42]Free Software Foundation (FSF) developing the next generation GNU [43]General Public License (GPL). One of the rumours about potential changes involve a requirement to post sources of GPL'd software that is used to power a website, which would probably fail the [44]Debian Free Software Guidelines. He also wondered whether differences about the GNU [45]Free Documentation License are symptoms of a deeper difference of opinion between Debian and FSF. 41. http://www.kaijanaho.info/antti-juhani/blog/en/debian/gpl-dfsg.html 42. http://www.fsf.org/ 43. http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html 44. http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines 45. http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html Security Updates. You know the drill. Please make sure that you update your systems if you have any of these packages installed. * [46]mah-jong -- Denial of service. * [47]heimdal -- Potential buffer overflow. 46. http://www.debian.org/security/2004/dsa-503 47. http://www.debian.org/security/2004/dsa-504 New or Noteworthy Packages. The following packages were added to the unstable Debian archive [48]recently or contain important updates. 48. http://packages.debian.org/unstable/newpkg_main * [49]amavis-stats -- Virus statistics RRDtool frontend for Amavis. * [50]aspell-bn -- Bengali Wordlist for Aspell. * [51]bittornado -- Bittorrent client with enhanced GUI and curses mode. * [52]diogenes -- Web content management system. * [53]hspell-gui -- Graphical front-end for the hspell hebrew spell checker. * [54]kstreamripper -- KDE frontend for streamripper. * [55]lksctp-tools -- User-space access to Linux Kernel SCTP - command-line tools. * [56]mtink -- Status monitor and configuration tool for Epson inkjet printers. * [57]perlindex -- Index and query Perl manual pages. * [58]siproxd -- SIP proxy/redirect/registrar. * [59]tcng -- Linux traffic control language interpreter. 49. http://packages.debian.org/unstable/admin/amavis-stats 50. http://packages.debian.org/unstable/text/aspell-bn 51. http://packages.debian.org/unstable/net/bittornado 52. http://packages.debian.org/unstable/web/diogenes 53. http://packages.debian.org/unstable/text/hspell-gui 54. http://packages.debian.org/unstable/sound/kstreamripper 55. http://packages.debian.org/unstable/net/lksctp-tools 56. http://packages.debian.org/unstable/misc/mtink 57. http://packages.debian.org/unstable/perl/perlindex 58. http://packages.debian.org/unstable/net/siproxd 59. http://packages.debian.org/unstable/net/tcng Debian Packages introduced last Week. Every day, a different Debian package is [60]featured from the testing distribution. If you know about an obscure package you think others should also know about, send it to [61]Andrew Sweger. Debian package a day introduced the following packages last week. 60. http://www.livejournal.com/users/debaday/ 61. http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=debaday * [62]binclock -- binary clock for console with color support. * [63]mywiki -- Personal wiki on GNUstep or Cocoa environment. * [64]srs -- Command-line Sender Rewriting Scheme client. * [65]telnet -- The telnet client. * [66]procmail -- Versatile e-mail processor. * [67]whitespace -- Programming language where only whitespace counts. * [68]regexplorer -- Visual regular expression explorer. 62. http://www.livejournal.com/users/debaday/13221.html 63. http://www.livejournal.com/users/debaday/13432.html 64. http://www.livejournal.com/users/debaday/13601.html 65. http://www.livejournal.com/users/debaday/13874.html 66. http://www.livejournal.com/users/debaday/14220.html 67. http://www.livejournal.com/users/debaday/14410.html 68. http://www.livejournal.com/users/debaday/14835.html Orphaned Packages. 2 packages were orphaned this week and require a new maintainer. This makes a total of 159 orphaned packages. Many thanks to the previous maintainers who contributed to the Free Software community. Please see the [69]WNPP pages for the full list, and please add a note to the bug report and retitle it to ITA: if you plan to take over a package. 69. http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/ * [70]imwheel -- Program to support the "wheel" on most new mice. ([71]Bug#249533) * [72]libmail-audit-perl -- Perl library for creating easy mail filters. ([73]Bug#248606) 70. http://packages.debian.org/unstable/utils/imwheel 71. http://bugs.debian.org/249533 72. http://packages.debian.org/unstable/perl/libmail-audit-perl 73. http://bugs.debian.org/248606 Want to continue reading DWN? Please help us create this newsletter. We still need more volunteer writers who watch the Debian community and report about what is going on. Please see the [74]contributing page to find out how to help. We're looking forward to receiving your mail at [75]dwn(a)debian.org. 74. http://www.debian.org/News/weekly/contributing 75. mailto:dwn@debian.org --

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FLOSS concept booklet...
by Frederick Noronha (FN) 18 May '04

18 May '04

________________________________________________________________________ Message: 1 Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 18:46:45 +0530 From: Aniruddha Shankar <karim(a)sarai.net> Subject: FLOSS "Concept Booklet":Contributions/Criticism/Addenda solicited -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello. I work in a non-profit organisation (www.sarai.net) that is deeply involved in and committed to Free/Libre/Open Source Software. We're in the process of creating and publishing a Concept Booklet on Free/Libre/Open Source Software that will, hopefully, be accessible even to people with an extremely limited understanding of computers and absolutely no knowledge of open source/free/libre software. In collabroation with one such layperson, we created a set of questions on free software and are in the process of generating the answers and the additional content for the concept booklet. We'd be thrilled if you people would contribute as many answers as you can to the questions that we have outlined below. Of course, please feel free to comment on the existing questions and to make additions to them. All contributions will be gratefully acknowledged. The booklet will be published under the Creative Commons/Share Alike License and distributed free or at a nominal cost. We will, of course, be providing a full version online, including print-quality PDFs. This call for contributions from the wider community interested in free/libre/open source software is an effort to extend the methodology used in creating free software into the arena of collaborative publishing. All contributions, no matter how small, trivial or obvious they might seem, are extremely valuable to us. Please, do take the time to read the questions and contribute, if possible. I apologise to those who are subscribed to two or more of the lists to which this is posted for the crosspost. Please feel free to forward this email to people or entities that you feel might be helpful. Cheers, Aniruddha Shankar Intro / Concept: What is free software? Well tell me what's not " free" about other kinds of software? So " free" means that I don't have to spend any money then? How is Free Software actually made? So how is this different from the production of other kinds of software? So the term Free Software is a legal definition then? What do you mean by " Copyleft" ? What's wrong with copyright? How is this different? Is this Copyleft against the law? What does GNU GPL stand for? If this software is free as you say then why do we need legislation to protect it? What other licenses exist to protect Free Software? Okay so I can see that Free Software is legal but surely if I duplicate something that means that someone is losing out somewhere along the way? History of F.S: When did this whole Free Software thing start? How long have people been using it for? So Free Software actually pre-dates Microsoft? So are you saying that in some ways the history of Free Software and the internet run parallel to one another? Okay, but now what is Linux? When did that come about? So how this changed the development of software in general? Who's this Stallman character then? Where does he fit into the picture? How do you see the future development of Free Software? Production Methodology: How is Free Software actually made? What kinds of people make Free Software? But I still don't understand why anyone would want to give away their work for free? What's in it for them!? What do you mean by a Digital Commons? In what ways could I benefit from involving myself in this Digital Commons? Arguments for using F.S: I'm still not convinced. Surely a big computer company knows best when it comes to designing software? Why would I want to use software designed by an amateur? But what about bugs? Surely Free Software is more likely to be virus prone? So you're saying that Free Software actually evolves at a faster pace than closed software? Software that can be modified actually runs better than closed software then? Free Software is only something used by computer enthusiasts, right? Have any established organizations actually used Free Software to their advantage? Personal Relationship to F.S: What kinds of problems might I expect to encounter using F.S? Okay but why would I want to modify my software anyway? Look, I'm no computer whiz! Isn't it easier for me to just use packaged software? Who do I turn to when something goes wrong? But how do I know I can trust someone not linked to a big company that has a reputation to uphold? Won't this cost me more than just calling someone out through the help-line of an established computer company? Well what do I have to lose from using Free Software? Okay so how would I begin to install Free Software on my machine? Glossary: - -- Aniruddha 'Karim' Shankar The Sarai Programme Key ID: 0xA037AD2B Public Key Fingerprint: 9167 C0E7 A679 0906 7E47 83C0 8499 2B77 A037 AD2B To get my public key, search http://pgp.mit.edu for my email id. To directly import my key into your keyring, run gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys A037AD2B . -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFAqLs6hJkrd6A3rSsRAnM/AJ97T14ztuABNlWolokpoF6koxeOcgCgvLGZ z59adLmHeP6FoXeah3OlmJ0= =Imd+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________

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death of democracy
by Mahesh T. Pai 17 May '04

17 May '04

I am forwarding a message to show how the European Union's legal policies are being hijacked by a few, in the teeth of strong public opposition. Just see how strongarm lobbying is winning (at as of now) in the teeth of opposition from an overwhelming majority. Why is this relevant on this list? Simple - the patent issue was re-opened in EU by the Irish republic, which has a coalition government. The smaller parties, which wield power disproportionate to its strength call the shots. One such party has been `purchased' by a particular company, and they are effectively dictating the terms here. With cow-herds who proudly trumpet their ignorance about Information Technology playing power-brokers and king (err queen) -makers at New Delhi, we are situated in identical situation as the Irish republic. And we have a serious additional disadvantage - lack of public awareness. I request all of you to devote at least half an hour to discussing philosophical issues and in particular, dangers from patents at the next local user group meet. ----- Forwarded message from Mandrakesoft Team <return(a)mandrakesoft.com> ----- Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 17:10:30 +0200 (CEST) From: Mandrakesoft Team <return(a)mandrakesoft.com> Subject: Mandrakelinux NWL: Software patents - fresh news and call for action To: Flash: Software patents - fresh news and call for action As a follow-up to our latest flash regarding the upcoming decision of the European Council to legalize software patentability in Europe, here are some fresh news and information on what you can do to help. If nothing changes, tomorrow, Tuesday May 18, the European Council, that is, the European body which represents all the governments of the European Union, will vote in favor of a directive that will legalize software patents in Europe. Last September, faced with a similar choice, the European Parliament voted major amendments to the directive text drafted by the European Commission, actually rejecting software patentability. However, the Council, ignoring all of these amendments, is going to vote in favor of a text that is even worse than the initial version of the Commission. Why can the Council take a decision which will be so harmful to the European software industry? Unlike the Parliament, which is a place open to the public, where Members of the European Parliament have had time to study the proposal and hear many positions on the issue in order to take a well-thought decision, the Council is a closed body where, due to the alledged complexity of the subject, representatives of the governments have handed out the file to committees of experts. These experts, who re-drafted the text and wrote position papers on why to vote it, are in fact mostly representatives from the national patent offices, backed by the heads of the legal departments of some big industrial companies, all of whom have a common interest: more patents mean more power for them, irrespective of the harm that will be done to the economy at large, and even to their own companies. In the name of "the Industry" and of "innovation", they manipulated the political decision-makers to make them believe that the new text did not allow to patent pure software, that it was a good compromise between the Commission and Parliament texts, and that not all of the parliamentary amendments could be kept because some of them were illegal with respect to international treaties such as TRIPS. All of this is plain lie. In fact, if voted, the text of the Council would lead to a situation where big companies with large patent portfolios use these to lock their respective markets and prevent competition from innovative SMEs, and where "intellectual property" companies that do not create any software use their own patent portfolios to collect license fee rents from everybody. This is the situation which is happening in the US, putting at risk its successful software industry. This is what may just happen in Europe in a few months. However, it is not too late. Because of growing pressure from computer professionals and from the public, and because they get more and more feed-back from the media, political decision-makers begin to get aware of the issues, and to have doubts about the sincerity of the patent lobby. In some countries, they have taken the file back from the patent offices http://lwn.net/Articles/85379/ http://kwiki.ffii.org/?SwpatcninoEn and some countries of the Council have just decided to switch from a voting procedure without debate to a voting procedure with debate, as the text gets less and less consensus among the members of the European Union. You can convince even more of them to reject software patentability. In order to do that, please take some time to read about the issues at stake, and spread the information across your friends and business contacts, the press, your members of the parliament and your government. It is essential that elected policy makers get back into command of the situation and do not leave the patent offices decide alone. Here are some texts which can help you to present the issues to the media and to convince policy-makers of all countries of the European Union. A very readable analysis by Fran?ois Pellegrini explaining the legal and economic issues of software patentability: http://www.abul.org/article191.html A thorough analysis by Jonas Maebe of the difference between the three versions of the directive, and why software patents are indeed illegal with respect to TRIPS: http://www.elis.ugent.be/~jmaebe/swpat/councilanalysis/paper-en.pdf Positions of the member countries of the European Union: http://swpat.ffii.org/akteure/ (add "pt", "ie", "fr", "de", "be", "gr", etc to have the positions of the member countries) The page of the FFII giving some directions for actions: http://kwiki.ffii.org/?LtrSmePolit0405En A recent paper published in the Washington Post describing the current situation in the United States: "Patenting Air or Protecting Property? Information Age Invents a New Problem" http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A54548-2003Dec10?language=printer 31 companies sued for using the JPEG image format (the plaintiff filed for a patent while recommending the adoption in international bodies of a standard including its patented technology): http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,63200,00.html%3Ftw%3Dwn_bizhead_1 A US company sues companies of on-line content distribution: http://www.e-data.com/ http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-5205529.html http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-5144097.html A well-documented file on the reference site Law.com: http://www.law.com/jsp/statearchive.jsp?type=Article&oldid=ZZZV4RVSSPC Thank you very much for your help. Mandrakesoft Online Team. ------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- End forwarded message ----- -- "Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security nor liberty"

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Patently stupid
by Rakesh 'arky' Ambati 14 May '04

14 May '04

Hi, Patents are back !!!!! Hide if you can, they'll get you. <news> In direct contravention of the recent vote by the European Parliament to curtail Software Patents, the Irish Presidency of the European Union has surreptitiously reinstated unlimited software patent language into the text of a statement to be adopted by the European Council of Ministers on Monday, May 17, without further debate! The new text, if adopted, will extend Software Patents to every piece of software, including computer programs, data structures, and process descriptions. This will directly harm most software firms and all Open Source projects unable to pay patent licensing tribute, and amounts to an appropriation of the public domain by proprietary interests. A direct beneficiary will be a new class of pure patent companies without any real business or contribution to employment, which will use the threat of litigation to extort payments. Of note is that a sponsor of the Irish Presidency is Microsoft, currently building a large patent portfolio. If the Software Patent text is adopted, Microsoft may use this patent portfolio against Linux and other Open Source projects. </news> Read More Software patents back on the horizon after EU leaders ignore the vote of MEPs: http://software.newsforge.com/software/04/05/13/1447225.shtml?tid=132&tid=1… FYI --arky __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/

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Re: [Fsf-friends] FairPlay is now Hymn
by Rakesh 'arky' Ambati 11 May '04

11 May '04

--- Sajith T S <sajith(a)symonds.net> wrote: > Rakesh 'arky' Ambati wrote: > > > The project has been renamed Hymn, according to > Anand > > Babu, the maintainer of the project. It is being > > hosted on two sites by a US-based hosting service > > provider. > > Where is Hymn hosted? Just found this news update. The project has been renamed Hymn, according to Anand Babu, the maintainer of the project. It is being hosted on two sites (http://playfair.org/ and http://hymn-project.org) by a U.S.-based hosting service provider. Babu said last month that the project would be hosted outside the U.S. cheers --arky __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover

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FairPlay is now Hymn
by Rakesh 'arky' Ambati 11 May '04

11 May '04

Hi list, The project has been renamed Hymn, according to Anand Babu, the maintainer of the project. It is being hosted on two sites by a US-based hosting service provider. Babu said last month that the project would be hosted outside the US. Read the complete story here. http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/main_news.cfm?NewsID=8637 cheers --arky __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover

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Re: [Fsf-friends] Has anyone tried using Knoppix 3.3 ?
by "Kenneth Wong <ken＠apdip.net>"＠apdip.net 09 May '04

09 May '04

Ramanraj K <ramanraj(a)md4.vsnl.net.in> wrote .. > I just tried using Knoppix 3.3 that came with the May issue of > LinuxForYou. Looks like good free software! Warning - not all of Knoppix is Free Software. Some things like acrobat reader (4.0) aren't free software. That said, it's possible to use only the free parts and have a fully functional system. Knoppix 3.4 just came out last week also and it supports even more hardware than 3.3. The live-CD is a wonderful thing for introducing people to free software. -- Kenneth Wong IOSN Programme Consultant, UNDP-APDIP, Malaysia DID: +603 2091 5169 Fax: +603 2093 9740 UNDP Asia Pacific Development Information Programme: http://www.apdip.net

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Has anyone tried using Knoppix 3.3 ?
by Tarun Gaur 08 May '04

08 May '04

Hi Ramanraj, Knoppix 3.3 Its a good one. I liked it too. I have always closely watched their work. Knoppix like projects could help us get over with preinstalled proprietry software. I consider it to be very good work. A good ambassador to our philosophy. regards, tarun _________________________________________________________________ Get head-hunted by 10,000 recruiters. http://go.msnserver.com/IN/35984.asp Post your CV on naukri.com today.

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FREEDOM, PHILOSOPHY and FREEDOM SOFTWARE
by Tarun Gaur 08 May '04

08 May '04

Hi Harish, Great to have an enthu response to my mail from you. On building the masses ... atleast we agree that masses need to be built. Let agree to disagree. You build the mass your way, i will build it my way; with mutual respect for the philosophy.;) I repeat again and again. You and many others are misquoting me. I never mean to say that Free Software is not good or it is not tending to be good. Still, Philosophically speaking it sounds great talking about the fact that "promote the philosophy and good software follows" .... Its like saying promote the brand name and products will follow. Sell promises the action will follow. Show rosy pictures stuffed with philosophy, the dreamland will follow. An idealistic society with FREEDOM for all and everyone will understand on their own. Social Change ... on its own. History is witness ... aggressors gain resources, promote philosophies, accumulate knowledge and are remembered. REST are a part of never existant idealistic society of Socrates. A PHILOSOPHICAL MINORITY. No friend, the actions speak louder than words. Give them free good software, you will not need to support the philosophy. The philosophy will travel on its own. I will give you an example here ... Linux happened and people saw the potential and RMS was able to push the philosophy, first in a very minority community writing some "GOOD" software, then they were able to promote their philosophy because of their work with some GOOD Software and attain wider acceptance. Lets agree to disagree here. I strongly believe that philosophies are duds without followers and philosophies turn into mass revolutions only when promoted to show an effect on masses. I am not saying Linux and other Free software projects are not doing that; neither i have anywhere said that Free software philosophy is flawed. Both can be promoted concurrently and you cant ignore either of them. Still statistics dont support that philosophy is seeping in. (I dont mean i dont understand the philosophy) When this thread started, it was because there was this respected end user called Mr Rammanohar Reddy (Editor, The Hindu); who genuinely tried working with Linux and dumped it for Windows after 1 month of frantically trying to set his Display of KDE right. The moment i tried to put his mail across to the list ... we had responses like "I dont Care" ; "Who cares till i am happy" ; to hell with what Mr Rammanohar thinks". What a way to promote a philosophy. Another wonderful hilarious way is .. I am happy, my friend called Mr. NASA and Mr. ISP is happy. Now i dont care whether kids are following it or not; whether schools are teaching it or not; whether journalists, doctors, lawyers and each one of them out there is using free software or not. I am happy till philosophy is realised but i wont use good free software as an agent to promote the philosophy. My question is friend ... then how will you do it ... Come on lets do 10,000 road shows singing the philosophy. Lets see how many switch. [ ;) though i dont mind doing 1 or 2 .. lol ] Whenever i come across ancdotes and examples of being happy with Free software, they are from our highly enlightened friends (FSF evanglists and Open Source guys - Primarily techos). I am yet to see very happy masses. Good Free Software is the ambassador for our philosophy. Just to add to your experience with Laptops, 2 months back i bought a Sony and got Linux preinstalled on demand; i succeded where you failed. But i really dont care about my own experience or your experience with Linux and free software because you and me are a MINORITY - a small drop in the ocean. What is important is that the masses start thinking what you and me think. The philosophy is not promoted by "I dont care" attitutes. A sad thing is that from so many days we have been discussing this issue ... Everyone seems to catch the FREE vs GOOD debate but manages to miss the point. The point is that ..... An end user is not happy. Lets get togather and help him out. By doing this we are not hurting the philosophy but supporting it by our actions. The RED HAT thing, i will explain again .. they are launching servers ... price range $1000 to $3500. It just the start, then comes the services bug in terms of more software. Though open source, completely open source. Is this what Free sofware all about ... RMS please comment !! Who are they? the Red Hat people .. how did they start? Who knows it better than RMS? As per you billions will never be affected by "free/non-free nonsense"; Friend there are thousands of philosophies that are born and die every single day, the ones who attain critical mass are the ones which evolve and are fiercely promoted ... For how many more years are we going to hide under the garb of saying ... "It is just a start" .... GNU project was launched in 1984 .. its already 20 years ... Its not a start anymore. ITS TIME TO GAIN CRITICAL MASS !! hail fsf, tarun _________________________________________________________________ Easiest Money Transfer to India. Send Money To 6000 Indian Towns. http://go.msnserver.com/IN/48198.asp Easiest Way To Send Money Home!

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FREEDOM, PHILOSOPHY and FREEDOM SOFTWARE
by Tarun Gaur 08 May '04

08 May '04

>From: Harish Narayanan <harish(a)gamebox.net> >To: Tarun Gaur <gaur_tarun(a)hotmail.com> >CC: fsf-friends(a)mm.gnu.org.in >Subject: Re: FREEDOM, PHILOSOPHY and FREEDOM SOFTWARE >Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 19:12:55 -0400 > >I can't help it, I better get these out of the way, >- Curious, why do you keep switching to all capital letters at arbitrary >points. It doesn't add to clarity, but I keep interpreting it as you're >screaming. >- Why don't you continue responses without changing the subject line? >- Again, freedom is a noun. Freedom software sounds very odd >- The reason that email you forwarded aggravated many people, was the way >in which it was suddenly thrust in. A little bit of etiquette can go a long >way. (Interpretation is subject to the index of one's own mind, still respecting your opinion i will not use capital letters, though sometimes you have to be loud to reach some deaf ears) I am not really worried about your obsession with nouns and verbs ... and neither did i thrust anything on anyone. It was not a junk proprietry windows source code that i forwarded or a secret note describing the rigging in American elections ... it was a simple mail describing an end user's experience with linux. I was not contesting the philosophy in this mail, nevertheless it seems like it is useless discussing it anymore ... cause i think very few are concerned on what is the importance of a good end user experience with free software and its relation to promotion of the philosophy. > >No one is misquoting anyone. Either your usage of words or tone seem to >mean or imply that free software as it is today is lacking. You keep >talking about, for instance, > Misquoting was a subtle expression ... seems like understanding the concern is a bit difficult for you here. >- "improving" to attract the masses, >- asking everyone to see it as an end user as opposed to a hacker (I safely >assumed this meant, hackers to some extent are more familiar with the >internals, so can deal easier with software that is superficially >unfriendly), >- the end user is not happy, or >- plugging all the holes so that the business men will be comfortable using >it. > >From these, among other things, some people will tend to make assumptions >regarding what you're trying to say. Maybe it is a fundamental >communication gap. > >As I've explained in another reply on another thread (because my mail >client likes to sort it like that), I bought my computer a while ago. >Things have changed in the recent past. But none of that matters, it isn't >too hard to wipe a hard drive. I was just trying to portray the hold >monopolies can have on vendors, and consequently the mind share they have >amongst users. If a person hadn't seen anything else, they'd be just as >happy with GNOME, KDE, Mac OS, Windows, BeOS, or whatever for basic needs >when introduced to them. It's when all you've ever seen and previously >worked on is, say, Windows, you will likely go with the most familiar even >when handed a choice. Even at the extent of loss of freedom. > Were we talking about monopolies of the vendors .. I think here mahesh agrees with me ... it was a matter of choice that i excercised and you did not. >RedHat is doing exactly what free software from a corporate perspective is >all about. They sell entirely free software at large markup, purely for the >peace of mind their support offers to big companies. There is nothing >preventing you, an individual, who will not want to spend the 3500$, from >obtaining any of it for free, studying it, modifying it, distributing it, >and of course, expanding upon it. > >[ http://www2.uibk.ac.at/zid/software/unix/linux/rhel-rebuild.htm ] > >They've done more than most other companies ever will for the growth of >free software. For years they've allowed anyone and everyone to download >the huge ISO images of fully free distributions fully free of charge, for >instance. Who pays for their bandwidth? How do they survive if they can't >charge for services and support centered around their products as well? If >you find it exorbitantly expensive, find another source for your software. >That is what choice is about. If no one buys it, they will have to lower >their prices or die naturally. Don't criticize or get angry, just let your >choices do the talking. > >[ http://www.redhat.com/about/mission/business_model.html ] Seems like you have something to do with Red Hat. Are you working for them or sell Red hat boxes ... Just plain curious (like you were .. not changing the subject lines) If you are not ... it would really help the philosophy and the cause for you to focus on GNU/FSF. > >If you give an average person a very good program that satisfies their >immediate requirements, they will use it. If it were free, it would be >free, if it weren't, then it wouldn't be. I have an old Mandrake box at >home which does everything my parents need, and which I can administer >remotely. Let's assume I haven't told them anything about the freedom >they're consequently enjoying. All they know is that they aren't paying for >it, it works well, and that while their friends get affected by viruses and >worms, they have no problems receiving email from their son. Where in this >was the philosophy communicated? If tomorrow the hard drive were to crash, >and the local computer man were to install Windows, they will adjust to it >and use it. I'm trying to indicate that philosophy and social implications >are bigger than just free software. > Sorry again here friend, but seems like you have graduated from your experience to your parents experience. I am talking about the generation maturing, the generation that is using XP and similar proprietry software. Give me a break. I repeat "you" and "I" are a MINORITY. We need to promote philosophy by using good free software as an ambassador to reach them and gain critical mass. You seem to pick up sentences that suit a useless argument ... ignoring the importance of good end user experience everytime. Did I ever say that philosophy is not imprortant. But i did say that free software is an ambassador of our philosophy. And philosophy and good free software compliment each other. >Give them good free software and they will use it, sure. The software will >travel on it's own. This, and the communication of ideals aren't >necessarily linked. They are using it because it's good. Give them free >software and explain to them why being free makes it inherently good, and >they will still use it. But more importantly, the ideals have also spread. > >I am willing to take my chances on another kernel stepping up to the plate >even if the Linux kernel hadn't filled a hole in the GNU system. It might >have taken more time to reach the level of adoption we see today (or maybe >even less if it were even more popular for some reason), but it would have >happened independent of Linux. Point being, there would have been someone >who valued all this (and was skilled enough) to write things that worked to >fill this void. > >And all this about fierce promotion, gaining critical mass, mass revolution >and things like that. I really wish to know what it is your aim for all of >this is. Please elaborate on what do you mean by "What my aim is" ... still i will answer ... My aim is to ensure that end user experience - especially negative is not repulsed. They are helped and philosophy reaches the masses through each one of them ... each single one of them. Its not a start anymore ... Its time to reach critical mass. hail fsf, tarun _________________________________________________________________ Contact brides & grooms FREE! http://www.shaadi.com/ptnr.php?ptnr=hmltag Only on www.shaadi.com. Register now!

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