Greetings, My observations are at the end.
2008/11/30 Nagarjuna G. nagarjun@gnowledge.org: <snip>
FSF was founded in 1985. What kind of hindrance did it create for not letting democracy or freedom flourish? On the contrary it took the lead in promoting and protecting these virtues. It gave the direction to the movement. FSM created tools that help create social networks to let this happen. It is therefore an enabler of freedom.
<snip>
Political parties on the other hand want to administer social change, but we do not do that. They want power and control but we don't.
Free software movement is possible without creating any large political groups. The most important identity that we respect is the human being and that beings' freedom. When we have a large number of small groups at every part of the country (an FSUG in every town, district, we don't have them now.) FSM will flourish. FSFI will support their formation, provide them direction, give them infrastructure, invite the leads of such groups into the working group, generate consensus etc. and support each other.
<snip>
Let us all work towards such an organic growth, instead of creating one large network of FSF chapters. let me repeat, FSFs do not want to become a political powers, and does not want to govern. That will be self-defeating to the ideals of freedom.
FSF-I was formed in July 2001. The I-Lugs existed years before that. Now FSF-I should have worked for the conversion of the "Linux" to "Libre" as done in certain groups. Why divide the Movement by promoting FSUGs etc? To take free software(free knowledge) to the last (wo)man in the most backward villages of our country we need people of different backgrounds. I don't think that differences on the issue of Free vs. Open should have been a devisive issue.
On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 10:20 PM, Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.com wrote:
Greetings, My observations are at the end.
FSF-I was formed in July 2001. The I-Lugs existed years before that. Now FSF-I should have worked for the conversion of the "Linux" to "Libre" as done in certain groups. Why divide the Movement by promoting FSUGs etc? To take free software(free knowledge) to the last (wo)man in the most backward villages of our country we need people of different backgrounds. I don't think that differences on the issue of Free vs. Open should have been a devisive issue.
we do not force, we voice our views. In the case of Kochi ILUG, I did not force, they were already convinced. Kochi ILUG asked me to baptize, so I did it. Wherever possible we should keep talking, and when people are ready we can change it. If they do not change, what is wrong in creating a cleaner group with focussed objective. Every political action creates this division, and this is necessary for the identify of the group.
In some places like Bangalore there are enough people who stand for software freedom, and that is why fsug exists. But, we need to create such groups in other places as well. We should continue to participate in lugs, and whenever software freedom related issues are raised we must defend or voice our views.
Open vs free debate started after free was in currency for several years. they started telling people that freedom is not the issue and began focusing on practical aspects of free software. We do not deny that practical aspects of free software are not important, but they are secondary. Because, they come from the primary aspect of freedom. Take away freedom, the pragmatic aspects do not have value. They knew that freedom is the underlying aspect, but they masked it deliberately. That is not acceptable to us. Even if it takes a long time, we do not want to tell users to use free software by telling them about attractive cover which masks the underlying essence. If we do that people may not even see it. This is a fact. Most users who use GNU/Linux do not know the virtues of it, they use it for practical reasons. That is why telling them about freedom is becoming difficult. We want a sustainable social change, and that comes only when we convince users about the idea behind it. Then users will use free software come what may.
However, whenever we are fighting on some issues like, software patents, free document standards, etc. open source community and free software community worked together. Therefore we are not weakening the force when required. But, it is very important to keep the idea of free software at the core.
yes, we need people of different backgrounds. that is why we want to tell all groups the message of software freedom.
If you look at the history you will realize who created the division and confusion. So, if you are accusing FSF is divisive you are spreading a wrong message. Not only that, what you are doing is not in support of FSF, because you are questioning the core of FSF.
On Sun, 2008-11-30 at 22:20 +0530, Vikram Vincent wrote:
FSF-I was formed in July 2001. The I-Lugs existed years before that. Now FSF-I should have worked for the conversion of the "Linux" to "Libre" as done in certain groups. Why divide the Movement by promoting FSUGs etc?
We believe that Free Software is much more than Linux. So we would like the user groups to be named FSUGs, GLUGs or something that reflects the idea of freedom, such as what you suggested. But we don't take the decision as to whether the name of a particular group should be FSUG, GLUG or something else (PLUG, for example). The decision is taken by the members of the group. Several groups that were originally called LUGs or ILUGs have changed their name. Why do you think that this will divide the Movement? We have not seen any division so far. Let us not create a division where none exists.
To take free software(free knowledge) to the last (wo)man in the most backward villages of our country we need people of different backgrounds. I don't think that differences on the issue of Free vs. Open should have been a devisive issue.
You are free to have your views, but we believe that Freedom is important, and that it is not just the source code being open that is important. Therefore, we advocate the use of the term Free Software. Of course, you have the freedom to use any name you want, but we would request you to use the name Free Software if you value freedom.
Best
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On Sunday 30 Nov 2008, V. Sasi Kumar wrote:
On Sun, 2008-11-30 at 22:20 +0530, Vikram Vincent wrote:
FSF-I was formed in July 2001. The I-Lugs existed years before that. Now FSF-I should have worked for the conversion of the "Linux" to "Libre" as done in certain groups. Why divide the Movement by promoting FSUGs etc?
We believe that Free Software is much more than Linux. So we would like the user groups to be named FSUGs, GLUGs or something that reflects the idea of freedom, such as what you suggested. But we don't take the decision as to whether the name of a particular group should be FSUG, GLUG or something else (PLUG, for example). The decision is taken by the members of the group. Several groups that were originally called LUGs or ILUGs have changed their name. Why do you think that this will divide the Movement? We have not seen any division so far. Let us not create a division where none exists.
Speaking on behalf of ILUG-Delhi (not an official position since I'm not an office-bearer there but I believe the LUG will back me up), I can say that we've worked with FSF-I wherever the need became apparent. We do not want to change our name to FSUG-Delhi or GLUG-Delhi, but we believe in the same objectives as FSF and FSF-I, and when a common target needs to be achieved we help each other, officially as well as unofficially.
The reason we can do this is because our (ILUGD's) and FSF-I's objectives coincide to a large extent, and our approaches also are similar (if not identical). I believe that an (unofficial?) Delhi chapter of FSF-I was formed a few years back, but since it was the same people with the same goals in both groups (FSF-I Delhi chapter and ILUGD) the chapter hasn't done much in recent times. The day we find the two groups' ideologies or approaches widely at variance with each other we can decide that FSF-I Delhi chapter should be revived and carry on local activities, while ILUGD goes its own way.
However, that hasn't happened yet, and until it does I see no pressing reason to have a formal FSF-I chapter in Delhi. In the meantime we (FSF-I and ILUGD) continue to speak at each others' events, support each others' activities, pay for each others' beer and chai and sell each others' t-shirts and kurtas :)
So to that extent I agree with what FSF-I is saying -- if there's an existing body of users and advocates who are going in the same direction as FSF-I it makes more sense to work with that body rather than form a new body from scratch and potentially divide the community. On the other hand, if you and enough other people feel that FSF-I's goals (or approach) are wrong, you are always welcome to form a new group and more power to you! That's what democracy is all about! I'm sure I speak for FSF-I when I say that it will support your group's activities wherever you have common goals.
Regards,
- -- Raju - -- Raj Mathur raju@kandalaya.org http://kandalaya.org/ GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5 0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F PsyTrance & Chill: http://schizoid.in/ || It is the mind that moves
On Mon, 2008-12-01 at 07:08 +0530, Raj Mathur wrote:
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Speaking on behalf of ILUG-Delhi (not an official position since I'm not an office-bearer there but I believe the LUG will back me up), I can say that we've worked with FSF-I wherever the need became apparent. We do not want to change our name to FSUG-Delhi or GLUG-Delhi, but we believe in the same objectives as FSF and FSF-I, and when a common target needs to be achieved we help each other, officially as well as unofficially.
Well said, Raju. (I am not referring to the specific part quoted above, but to the whole message.) I hope people in other groups also think similarly.
The only difference I have is about the name. I am not very fastidious about names. But by calling the group Linux User Group, you are limiting yourself to just one of the Free OSes (admitting that you call the OS Linux). I know at least one group that still maintains the name ILUG but has changed its expansion to Indian GNU/Linux Users Group. You know that FreeBSD, for example, is becoming popular, and GNU Hurd will some day (probably soon) begin to be used widely. The name FSUG would cover all such different flavours of Free Software. Of course, the name does not prevent you from using or promoting all of them! But still ...
Best
On Monday 01 Dec 2008, V. Sasi Kumar wrote:
[snip] The only difference I have is about the name. I am not very fastidious about names. But by calling the group Linux User Group, you are limiting yourself to just one of the Free OSes (admitting that you call the OS Linux). I know at least one group that still maintains the name ILUG but has changed its expansion to Indian GNU/Linux Users Group. You know that FreeBSD, for example, is becoming popular, and GNU Hurd will some day (probably soon) begin to be used widely. The name FSUG would cover all such different flavours of Free Software. Of course, the name does not prevent you from using or promoting all of them! But still ...
Linux is a legacy hangover from 1998 when the group was first started, when Linux was the most visible viable alternative to proprietary OSs. I agree that we could call ourselves the I-FOSS-UG-Delhi or some such more generic name (GLUG and FSUG will probably be vociferously objected to by the open source supporters in the local community). However, it won't really make a difference to what we do and what we want to do, and we may as well keep exploiting the brand value that the name (both Linux and ILUGD) has garnered over the years.
BTW, we don't limit ourselves at all -- our events, our meetings and our mailing all have have presentations, discussions, technical support and vociferous discussions on all aspects of free software, including most of the free OSs. Heck, you can probably get better BSD support on the ILUGD mailing list than on any other mailing list in Delhi :)
Regards,
-- Raju
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Nagarjuna G. -
Raj Mathur -
V. Sasi Kumar -
Vikram Vincent