Fsf-friends November 2008

fsf-friends@gnu.org.in

47 participants
72 discussions

Re: [Fsf-friends] Statement of FSF India board on recent incidents
by V. Sasi Kumar 30 Nov '08

30 Nov '08

On Sun, 2008-11-30 at 14:27 +0530, Arvind Kumar Chinniah wrote: > Excellent go ahead with your complete strategy on and against the > democratic stance on freedom and software. > You were informed about that, else I don't know how you were present > in the campus ? (A BASIC LOGIC MESS). I did not understand what I was informed about. If you are talking about the Cochin University conference, yes, I was not only informed, but also invited to chair a session. I declined the offer because I had another commitment and I was not sure whether I would be able to even participate in the conference. I informed the organisers not to make me chairman for any session because of this confusion. I told them that I would participate if I could. So what is your problem? That I did participate in the conference? Are you saying that I should not have participated? > And even dont know how you guys went on through taking sessions that > too from the first day morning. You mean to say that those who had agreed to take sessions should not have? So that it would throw the conference into confusion? So that you could have then blamed these people for having created the confusion? Sorry to disappoint you there. > A symbol can be patented, even I'm against it, pls get to know abt > that if u r ignorant. (Hope this can be made as a separate thread of > discussion). Thank you for the knowledge. I did not know that a symbol could be patented. Hope you are knowledgeable about patents. > You said you accept the money or incentive, if you were sponsored, on > their willingness. The case in Kochi Conference also is the same. > All the linux user groups were asked for sponsor, Novell user group > came out with a quote for sponsoring at the platinum level. Oh so was it the Novell user group that sponsored the conference? Must be a rather wealthy group if they could become the Platinum sponsor of a conference that hosted 1500 people. > The question is "Are you the only authoritive to make decisions on > free software in India ?" > I was actually expecting an answer for this. And the other are all due > to the way you made your statement page. Of course not. Actually, I don't make any decisions on free software in India. It is actually the governments and the people who make decisions. We Free Software advocates talk to them why they should adopt Free Software and Free formats. That is all. Best -- V. Sasi Kumar Free Software Foundation of India http://swatantryam.blogspot.com

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Statement of FSF India board on recent incidents
by tina celia 30 Nov '08

30 Nov '08

Words from Gitanjali coming back to mind. > > "Where knowledge is free > Where the world has not been broken up into fragments by narrow domestic > walls" > Time and again the above lines are being quoted, it dates back to ages and has its own relevance, but here's a new thought that belongs to today's world; Wake up oh country to the rising of a new call, Oh stretch out your wings and reach out to all, Than being clustered and so forlorn, Reach out to the thirsty before they be gone... I guess the point is clear now. Unless the waters diversify into streams and rivers they cannot flow out to the millions and quench their thirst, yet again they flow back and unite to form one water body. Which then seems to reach out, the gigantic ocean or the stream at hand??? >1. Who organised the First National Conference on Free Software held in Andra Pradesh in 2007? >As part of FSF India's effort to strengthen the free software movement in AP, FSF India has been working closely with free software activists there. Initiatives like Swecha took >place as part of that. FSF India Director, Mr Kiranchandra provided the leadership for the activities in Andhra Pradesh. Based on his suggestion and his initiative, FSF India decided >to organise a national convention of free software activists. Under his leadership, FSF India worked with other organisations like University of Hyderabad and Swecha to conduct >the first national convention. >However due to the inexperience of the local organisers, the valedictory session became a platform for anti-free software propaganda. Some of the speakers invited for the >valedictory session used the opportunity to spread messages against Free Software. Though other speakers like Dr. Nagarjuna did try to correct the misinformation, the damage >could not, obviously, be fully undone. >A free software event should support the free software cause, and that also means not lending its platform to the opponents of free software. >Those opponents have lots of money, and hold far more events than we do, in which they promote their ideas. They are not entitled to neuter our events by becoming speakers >there. I have been taken by surprise that being such eminent people of FSF India your response to the National Conference held at HCU unfortunately ends up like this. Having been a part of the Conference is this all that you noticed or cared to mention about? It can be stated without second thoughts that the first National Conference was certainly a success, it brought out the true spirit of freedom among a varied lot and spread knowledge in a new and unique way, to the extent that there has been a great response ever since. The entire event and those who worked so hard to make it such a success have been appreciated by all. And you address them as "inexperienced local organisers" ? I have not heard a word of praise ever pertaining the event from you. This is seriously disappointing, it would rather have been better if you would not have said anything at all, like you remained all these months, than actually criticizing the event and the efforts of the organizers.

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Free Software Free Society Conference in Trivandrum
by Arun M 30 Nov '08

30 Nov '08

Dear Friends, FSF India decided to support http://fsfs.in/ conference being organised under Government of Kerala. Conference schedule will be updated soon. A note on the conference is given below. It would be interesting if we can provide video stream using free software. I found this link http://giss.tv/ Do you know any one with experience in this and willing to help us ? with regards arun 2nd International conference on Freedom in Computing, Development and Culture. 9-11, December 2008 at Mascot Convention Center, Thiruvananthapuram The Free Software Movement, started about a quarter of a century back, pioneered the various movements for freedom in the digital world – for instance, free knowledge represented by Wikipedia or freedom of creative works from copyright restrictions represented by Creative Commons. We also see a new form of social production where collaboration becomes more important than competition, where people from different parts of the world co-operate to create digital products including documents, music or software. These movements, in their own way, are helping to bring about a reduction in the Digital Divide and increasing access to useful works of knowledge. It is perhaps time to define the contours of this new space and situate interventions therein. Located at the intersection of Free Software, Development and Society, the FSFS Conference will examine the application of the Free Software model for freeing intellectual artefacts from the clutches of restrictive laws (like the Copyright Act), and making them available for human development. The conference will also address, inter alia, issues such as technology access and the digital divide, legal issues, and experiences of using the Free Software model in fields such as music, and literature.

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Re: [Fsf-friends] Statement of FSF India board on recent incidents
by Arvind Kumar Chinniah 30 Nov '08

30 Nov '08

Now the cat is out of bag. It is clear from the statement from Board of directors that the on going battle against the Kochi conference got the covert and overt blessing from the whole board of FSF though some of them participating in the conference. The name Free Software Foundation (FSF) and its emblem, the wheel symbol might have be patented by FSF in any of Indian Patent office if not in US and the ban imposed by FSF, not to use the name FSF is understandable but the FSF cannot extend its territory to impose a ban on others not to use the term Free Software. The point no 11 state that the FSF India is willing to accept monetary or other support from any source so long as it comes without any strings attached and FSF India reserves the right to criticize any organization that, according to it, acts against the interests of the Free Software movement, irrespective of whether they have been supporting FSF India in any manner. This policy itself is flawed. When you get the fund from an organization and got the right to criticize it, what kind of ethics it is. Ethics courses conducted in many universities clearly guide that the way to handle such kind of conflict of interest is not to get fund from the donor who is about to be criticized. However you may come out with a theory that the money the donor earned was from the knowledge of the people who are working with them which is supposed to be in public domain. I understand that, based on the above policy, FSF, Boston has accepted fund from the same Novell. If you apply the same policy to the organizers of Kochi conference, you have no ground to oppose the organisers who got fund from Novell. I want to ask the question from you whether any such protest was organized by FSF Boston after getting fund from Novell. The point no. 5 state that it is opposing the policies of CPI(M) led government IKM supported propriety software in Kerala. Before registering such protest with the CPI(M) government, did you ask them what constraints they have in implementing free software in their activities or why do they support IKM supported propriety software? Did you register such protest with all other state governments who are supporting propriety software? Why do you choose CPI(M) led governments alone? The point no. 11 clearly states that the FSF governing body is not a democratic body and it will nominate a person into the body like a guru anoints his shisya as in Sankara Mutt. When you don't follow any democratic norms, what point you have against the organisers of the Kochi conference to state that the authorities stopped the protesters in an authoritarian and undemocratic manner as mentioned in point 9. The point no 6 states that FSF doesn't have campaign against Novell which implies that it is nothing to do with the boycott Novell campaign at Kochi conference. You say Novell is contributing to Free software but many of the Novell's action put the free software community's and the user's freedom at risk. It implies that Novel is very good as they are contributing to free software but some of their actions embarrass the free software community. This position eliminates your option of boycott Novel campaign. The only option left before you is to talk to Novell as they are your fellow traveler according to your statement and advise them not to embarrass the free software community. Then why do you poke your nose with the boycott novel organized by somebody who doesn't have any connection with FSF like FSF-TN or the organisers of Kochi conference and state that it was stopped undemocratically. Did you think the way the protesters did their job is legitimate? What right they have to deface exhibit material displayed by the organisers. It is like defacing the billboards of shops which was not written in Marathi by Raj Thakery's Navnirman Sena. It is common occurrence that many times violence took place in many places of our country when a political party pasted a poster over which the rival political party pastes another poster. The organisers approach the CUSAT authorities and got due permission from them to conduct the conference explaining the details of the activities they are going to have in the conference. If the protesters want to have some activities inside CUSAT, they should have approached the CUSAT authorities and got due permission to carry out their Boycott Novell campaign, whatever it may be like pasting posters or handbills or protest demonstration. If I be in a position of CUSAT authorities, I would not allow two activities simultaneously took place in my campus which are opposite in nature and this is what it was precisely done by CUSAT authorities. How does it be called undemocratic? When you have difference with the organisers, the way it was conducted you have no right to disturb their activities, you can organise your protest action at some other place. When you say that FSF is not a mass movement, what business you have with the organizers of Koch conference who wish to take free software to mass level? You got irked by the success of the organisers who could able to organise a huge mass and felt that the free software is your private property and was stolen by the organisers, and instigated a section of people to organise the protest Novell Campaign which is a knee jerk reaction on the part of FSF. - Arvind --- On *Fri, 11/28/08, Arun M <arun(a)gnu.org.in>* wrote: From: Arun M <arun(a)gnu.org.in> Subject: [Fsf-friends] Statement of FSF India board on recent incidents To: "fsf-friends" <fsf-friends(a)mm.gnu.org.in> Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 8:39 PM Dear Friends Please find FSF India's statement on recent developments. http://www.gnu.org.in/board-statement-on-recent-issues I hope this addresses some, if not all, the questions. More documents will be published in the coming days. regards arun _______________________________________________ Fsf-friends mailing listFsf-friends@mm.gnu.org.inhttp://mm.gnu.org.in/mailman/listinfo/fsf-friends

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Re: [Fsf-friends] Statement of FSF India board on recent incidents
by pratapreddy 30 Nov '08

30 Nov '08

On Sun, 2008-11-30 at 00:39 +0530, Nagarjuna G. wrote: > On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 12:22 AM, pratapreddy <pratap.fsf(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Dear friends, > > > > I am referring to FSF India Board statement on recent issues.. > > > > It is quite surprising to me while going through the description to the > > first question-Who organized the first national conference on free > > software in 2007. The statement says... > > > > <quote> > > ..... Based on his suggestion and his initiative, FSF India decided to > > organize a national convention of free software activists. Under his > > leadership, FSF India worked with other organizations like University of > > Hyderabad and Swecha to conduct the first national convention. > > <unquote> > > > > A committed group of Swecha activists, academicians from Universities > > like JNTU, OU in-association with University of Hyderabad actively > > involved in the first national conference. This group is very important > > They should be given due credit. I think community involvement is the > > key factor for the success. > > > > "A committed group of Swecha activists, academicians from Universities > like JNTU, OU in-association with University of Hyderabad actively > involved in the first national conference." I second this statement > from Pratapreddy. Can we edit the statement? Thank you Dr. Nagarjuna. The community will be happy if you incorporate the above statement. > > Nagarjuna I have another concern with regard to first first question. Many of us are inspired by the first national conference on free software at Hyderabad. I think the statement needs further editing. "It is successful platform for sharing knowledge as well as experiences among free software community. The conference paved the way for the free software community to expand in India." In any event success is to be projected reflecting the relality. Please focuss this direction also. pratap. -- Dr. L. Pratap Reddy, Prof. in ECE Department, JNTU College of Engineering, Kukatpally, Hyderabad - 500 085.

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Re: [Fsf-friends] Statement of FSF India board on recent incidents
by vijay reddy 30 Nov '08

30 Nov '08

HI > >>I am sorry, but I don't understand why it is shocking. Is something > >>seriously wrong with it? "FSF India does not have any plan to form local chapters. FSF India is not a mass based organisation." Dont you think this one statement in itself is shocking.Being the leaders of the movemet/organisation you all should be guiding it rather than sabotaging it with this sort of a stand. Many enthusiasts like me work in this movement and try to bridge the digital divide and take technology (free softwares) to the people(masses). Reading the above statement shocked me. And also that FSF India does not have any plans to form local chapters. If FSF can start local bodies like FSF I, then FSF I should also start local chapters, whats stopping and more importantly why stopping?? > >>This also is not clear to me. How is FSF India trying to divide the > >>existing committee? What committee, as a matter of fact? Well it was a typo. It should be community and not committee. Don't you think that adapting this sort of an approach will divide the community. If you dont think so, then going through the works of RMS and Eben Moglen would facilitate in the thinking process and help in understanding why I felt so. > >>Again, I fail to understand how FSF India is killing the movement. I > >>have heard this being repeated often, but have not yet been able to > >>understand. Can you please explain? People who have worked in taking the Free Software Philosophy ,paradigm and technologies to the people would better understand why this sort of approach kills the movement. > >>And we already have FSUGs and GLUGs that are very active. What is the > >>point in setting up another organisation? I have neither asked nor mentioned anywhere to set up another organisation. What i have asked is why take a stand on not setting up of local chapters? I think there is a lot of difference in setting up another organisation and setting up of local chapters of an existing organisation (or company; use the appropriate term as per rules/regulations). > >>More people using Free Software and understanding its philosophy are > >>objectives all of us are working for. But how does this reflect on the > >>constitution of the Board of FSF India? The constitution should, I > >>think, depend on the function. Constitution reflects the objectives we work for. How is it that the constitution says one thing but the objectives of the very organisation that follows the same constitution be different. This is hypocrisy to the core. > >>FSF India's role is to ensure that the ideals of Free Software are not > >>distorted, and to promote Free Software and its ideals. This requires > >>that the people on the board are clear about the philosophy of Free > >>Software. When a large section of the population does not have that > >>clarity, it is not advisable to have an elected body which may or may > >>not stick with the philosophy. I find major problems there. > >>As I tried to explain above, FSF India cannot be a democratic body > >>precisely because its aim is not to reflect the aspirations of the > >>public but to act as a touchstone for the philosophy of Free Software > >>(which, I hope, you believe in), on the one hand, and to advocate Free > >>Software and its philosophy, on the other. And remember, a member of the > >>Board gets no authority on the FS community or on anything else. There > >>is nothing attractive about being a member of the Board. The Foundation > >>is not ruling over anything. It is not like a government. Well i totally accept your point that one of the major objective of FSF-I is to advocate Free Software and its Philosophy, and i firmly belive in the same. Thats the very reason why i am shocked by the stand taken by the people who are supposed to be the leaders. I would like to know, is it possible to advocate the same in a vast country without having local chapters? > > > > In fact, if you take the history of Free Software, it was RMS who > started things and set up the GNU project, the GPL and the other > licences. It was not done in consultation with the people. It was only > in the case of GPL v3 that there were consultations with the community. > Even there, the clauses were not decided on the basis of a vote. A lot > of people the world over happen to think that all these are good for > society, and so they support it. > > >>And there is no aristocratic manner anywhere. All the members are > >>available for discussion and anyone is welcome. There are no guards or > >>protocols to be observed ;-) Well if it is not a democratic organisation, then the way in which the board framed the responses and the way in which i acts and would act can not be democratic either.Since you have mentioned that it is not democratic, there is no point in discussion,as per your anti-democratic stand. Hence,i feel, it is aristocratic. > > > > Hope you understand. > > Best > -- > V. Sasi Kumar > Free Software Foundation of India > http://swatantryam.blogspot.com > Hope i made my understanding clear. -- Vijay Chandra

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Re: [Fsf-friends] Statement of FSF India board on recent incidents
by vijay reddy 29 Nov '08

29 Nov '08

Hi, The answer given by FSF India on the question "Is FSF planning to start local chapters in every state?" is shocking. Why is FSF India trying to divide the existing commitee with this sort of approach.What they should be ideally doing is to encourage setting up of local chapters and strengthening the movement. But with this sort of stand and approach they are in fact killing the movement, killing the enthu among the people who are a part of the movement. Stating that " FSF India is not a mass organisation" is itself in contradiction to what the founder of Free Software Movement, Mr. Richard's speaks, that of majority of people using and evangelising free software. It would be better if the people who frame these should be in sync with what the majority of the community thinks rather than act in an aristocratic manner. Vijay Chandra

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Re: [Fsf-friends] Statement of FSF India board on recent incidents
by pratapreddy 29 Nov '08

29 Nov '08

Dear friends, I am referring to FSF India Board statement on recent issues.. It is quite surprising to me while going through the description to the first question-Who organized the first national conference on free software in 2007. The statement says... <quote> ..... Based on his suggestion and his initiative, FSF India decided to organize a national convention of free software activists. Under his leadership, FSF India worked with other organizations like University of Hyderabad and Swecha to conduct the first national convention. <unquote> A committed group of Swecha activists, academicians from Universities like JNTU, OU in-association with University of Hyderabad actively involved in the first national conference. This group is very important They should be given due credit. I think community involvement is the key factor for the success. More over the conference announcement is available in Swecha web site but not in FSF India portal. (Board statement confirmed it). I may not agree in toto with the continuation of the statement referring to valedictory session... The emphasis delivered by one of the speakers in the valedictory session is mainly focussed on bridging the gap in the digital divide. I dont think that he used our platform for anti-free software propaganda. On many occasions he encouraged free software. In Indian scenario, more and more community participation in a larger democratic interest will be the final solution. pratap, -- Dr. L. Pratap Reddy, Prof. in ECE Department, JNTU College of Engineering, Kukatpally, Hyderabad - 500 085. cell no. +91 94900 98012

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Item-9 in Open Source Definition
by Mani A 28 Nov '08

28 Nov '08

It is obvious that Clause 9 in http://opensource.org/docs/osd is against the principles of FOSS. (Quote "The license must not place restrictions on other software that is distributed along with the licensed software. For example, the license must not insist that all other programs distributed on the same medium must be open-source software. ") Obviously it is not being modified due to corporate pressure. Even http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html does not explicitly find fault with it. This must change. Best A. Mani -- A. Mani Member, Cal. Math. Soc

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Re: [Fsf-friends] a clarification needed
by Vikram Vincent 26 Nov '08

26 Nov '08

Greetings, 2008/11/18 Nagarjuna G. <nagarjun(a)gnowledge.org> > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Vikram Vincent > <vincentvikram(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > 2008/11/18 Arun M <arun(a)gnu.org.in> > >> > >> <snip>FSF India was not part of the conference though some board members > >> participated > >> in the event. Our participation is no way an endorsement to the > >> conference. > >> FSF India do have its own stand on the conference. Please note that > >> this has nothing > >> to do with what happened. > > > > Why is it that FSF-I has no public opinion about anything important? > > Chennai, Kochi, Bangalore... > > We want to know the reason for FSF-I not being a part of the conference. > > From the Vision of FSF-I http://www.gnu.org.in/why-we-exist the only > work of > > FSF-I is to be a not-for-profit company with certain goals which are not > > mass movement oriented. This is not useful to the Free Software Movement > > which is a mass movement. > > Is FSF-I democratic in its constitution? Meaning, are the members elected > or > > do company policies apply? > > If FSF-I continues in this manner then why do we need any FSF-I? We need > an > > organisation which can guide this Movement and not simply to give > > verdict/blessings that "this/you is/are right", "that/you is/are > wrong",... > > We want to know how FSF-I intends to proceed in the future. Does it plan > to > > be a participant in the Movement? We want it to be democratic and > > representative of the Movement in all senses and not simply through talk. > > A large set of questions, and each of them will be clarified. > > Nagarjuna > Since almost a week has passed would this be an ok time for a friendly reminder? Kindly also address the following: When was the last time that FSF-I had an election to the committee? When does it plan to have the next elections? Which system of functioning does FSF-I follow since sister FSFs do not follow the same system... -- Vikram Vincent +919448810822 http://swatantra.org/

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