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Re: [ILUG-BOM] The Simputer
by Mayuresh A Kathe 02 Jul '01

02 Jul '01

> A more powerful device doesn't mean more power in their hands. > You could give them a p3 but that p3 will only have value as long > as they're actually getting something out of the power. I did see Now thats what I meant in my earlier mail (Arnold theory ;-) Unless they are using the tremendous power offered by the StrongARM, its a waste. > the simputer at IISc in Bangalore and from what I could see, this > has tremendous value as a information dissemination device. > Philip was right in saying that the primary use is likely to be > for output rather than input. This is definitely not a pathetic > product. Thats where you are wrong Mayank, the simputer is too sick as a information dissemination device, its best suited as a information gathering device. And as I said earlier, in the current state that they have positioned the Simputer, its not worth the hype. > You should check out this India today article > http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20010219/adapters.shtml. It > shows fisherman in kerala using GPS positining devices as well as > [snip] > Please don't make the mistake of assuming that since they're poor > and illiterate, they cannot ever learn to use a simple device > like the simputer. Mayank you are going at tangents... What made you think that I am assuming "since people are poor they cannot ever learn to use a simple device"? What I have mentioned is, the person will have to learn an extra script, and the device is certainly not worth that effort. But the Simputer certainly isn't simple enough nor is it sophisticated enough, it hangs somewhere in between with no identity what so ever. GPS positioning devices are one of the most sophisticated instruments I have come across and they are _verrrry_ expensive. > Relevant question here is whether there will be people who are > willing to manufacture the device and also provide the content > that is essential to the receiver of the content. I don't think a > farmer in North India would be interested in the prices of fish > down in kerala. The device is here as it the technology, but when > do we see it in the hands of the masses? People would be willing to manufacture it if they just want to hop on to the bandwagon, else they would want to manufacture it if the device makes some business sense. Regarding receiving content: Well don't you think it to be stupid not to include a wireless interface _inside_ a handheld portable device? But since they wanted to keep the costs low they had to put in a standard modem which hooks on to a phone line, now if the person wants to surf he has to be sitting near a phone jack, so what the heck, why not add a keyboard, mouse and an inexpensive monitor, and voila, you have an ultra low cost desktop. I don't see it in the hands of the masses in its current state, somehow I think the designers got their basic concepts wrong. ~Mayuresh

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Re : C help
by Triptpal Singh Lamba 02 Jul '01

02 Jul '01

wrt : I need to know If there is an online > (dowloadable or otherwise) verion of a good book on > C/C++ > like Dennis Ritchie / Bjarne Stroustroup... Ditto > for Unix. N/W prog. like Richard Stevens... I had > seen the 2nd Edition and felt it was mostly about > how different commands work answer goto : http://www.acm.org/crossroads/xrds3-2/ovp32.html U will find all u need Regards, Triptpal Singh Before criticising anybody step into their shoes and walk for a mile.

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Re: [ILUG-BOM] Compressed files
by Nikhil Karkera 02 Jul '01

02 Jul '01

------------- Original Message -------------- Q u a s i <quasiabhi(a)yahoo.com> wrote: At 04:33 PM 6/29/01 +0000, Nikhil Karkera wrote: >An MP3 file is just a compressed WAV file. err. IMHO WAV -> MP3 is more than just plain compression. A lot of sophisticated techniques are used to decide which data is redundant and can be removed. The resultant compression is "lossy" - original data cannot be retrieved after decompression. Ditto for BMP -> JPEG. ---------------- End ------------------------ Yes, lossy compression techniques do throw away data. In case of images, JPEG exploits the limitations of the human eye, and throws away data in such a manner so as to try make the loss of data as unnoticable as possible. (image is represented in the form of a discrete signal I(x,y); pixel intensities represented by magnitude; signal magnitude is quantised to certain number of levels; no of quantisation levels variable; lesser quantisation levels = more compression & lesser quality; quantisation throws data). So also for MPEG compression. I guess it woldn't be right to call lossy compression a data compression technique (data = 0's and 1's), but rather an information compression technique(information = picture/sound represented by the 0's and 1's). But it is compression. Lossless compression on the other hand is a data compression technique. Regards, Nikhil. ____________________________________________________ Buy Feng Shui Package for Rs. 151/- only, at http://shopping.rediff.com/shopping/fengshui_mailer.htm

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CVS
by Rajen Parekh 02 Jul '01

02 Jul '01

Hi all, I have a stupid question to ask. What is this CVS thing ? I come across it at many places, mostly on download pages, but don't know anything about it. Could anyone enlighten me ? Regards, Rajen.

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[OFF TOPIC] Looking for Windows programming reference books
by S. Krishnan 02 Jul '01

02 Jul '01

Hi, I need the following Windows systems programming books urgently. If anyone is has them, I'd request either a short-term loan (say a week to 10 days), or alternatively, I'd be willing to buy them from anyone who wants to sell. 1. Systems Programming for Windows 95, by Walter Oney 2. Writing Windows VxDs & Device Drivers; Programming Secrets for Virtual Device Drivers, by Karen Hazzah Please e-mail me offlist if you can help me with these. TIA, Krishnan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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$MAIL: New mail notification in bash
by Manish Jethani 02 Jul '01

02 Jul '01

Bash has this feature of notifying you when you have new mail. The MAIL env. var. needs to be set to include the mail folders that need to be checked for new mail. On my system, I have included some of my Pine folders (e. g. $HOME/mail/linuxers) in $MAIL. I would like to know how bash "checks for new mail". Does it just use the "last accessed time"? I am sorry, I couldn't find any info on this in the manpage. My problem: After getting the notification ("You have new mail in linuxers") and reading the new message(s) using Pine, bash _again_ tells me that I have new mail. I suspect it just uses the last access time, which makes it so dumb in my case, because the message gets "marked as read/old" (thus modifying the mail folder file) since I have _just_read_it_. In short, it notifies me twice, once when I have new mail, and again when the mail has just been read. Any of you guys using this? How do you cope with it? Manish PS: I run fetchmail in daemon mode, so mail notification on the command line is cool for me. -- "If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he next comes to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." -- Thomas De Quincey (1785 - 1859)

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Reminder: ACM Seminar on Data Compression, Friday June 29
by Durgesh D Rao 02 Jul '01

02 Jul '01

Dear Colleague, This is to remind you of the following ACM event. Once again, sorry for the delayed email. - Durgesh, for ACM Mumbai ACM Seminar Friday, June 29, 2001 - 6:30 p.m. Title: Data Compression Speaker: Sayyed S. A. A., NCST Venue: Lecture Theatre, NCST, Juhu Abstract:Data compression techniques are applied to files to reduce their size, which in turn increases the capacity of data storage and speeds up data transmission. Data compression draws heavily from information theory, which deals with the probability of some symbol appearing in the input. For totally random sources, each symbol is equally likely, but random sources are uncompressible. This means that the more probable an event, the less information it contains. Data compression techniques also work on this principle. If we look at real-world files, we find a lot of redundant data in them. Data compression exploits this redundancy to its advantage. I intend to give an overview of data compression About the Speaker: Mr Sayyed is a consultant in the Database and Knowledge Engineering division at NCST Juhu. His interests include Databases, compression and encryption. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Durgesh D Rao (DDR) | Email: durgesh(a)ncst.ernet.in Research Scientist, KBCS Division | Ph: 6201606x372(w), 7563437(r) National Centre for Software Technology | Fax: +91-22-6210139 Gulmohar Rd 9, Juhu, Mumbai 400049, INDIA.| Web: www.ncst.ernet.in/~durgesh ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: [ILUG-BOM] Re-building the kernel
by Mayuresh A Kathe 02 Jul '01

02 Jul '01

Yup, this mail fixes it :-) ~Mayuresh > > Hi, > Sorry about the html.. hope this fixes it... > > As for the re-building the kernel.. i meant updating it with fixes of a > remote machine... a machine on which i dun have hands on access.. > > Philip answered my question.. > Thanx > Kunal > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mayuresh A Kathe" <mayuresh(a)vsnl.com> > To: <linuxers(a)mm.ilug-bom.org.in> > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 11:31 PM > Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] Re-building the kernel > > >> Hi Kunal, >> >> What do you exactly mean by re-building the kernel of a remote server? >> >> Awaiting your reply. >> >> ~Mayuresh >> >> PS: >> DO NOT send HTML mails, you are using Outlook Express, >> but most of us do not have an HTML aware email client. >> >> >> >> > >> > Hi, >> > I couldnt find anything on the ILUG site, on how to re-build the >> kernel of >> a > remote server... Could some one direct me to the right page? >> > Thanx, >> > Kunal >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Richard Stallman's Public Lecture 5pm 17th July, at TIFR. >> Linuxers mailing list >> Linuxers(a)mm.ilug-bom.org.in >> http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Richard Stallman's Public Lecture 5pm 17th July, at TIFR. > Linuxers mailing list > Linuxers(a)mm.ilug-bom.org.in > http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers

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Re: [ILUG-BOM] Re-building the kernel
by Mayuresh A Kathe 01 Jul '01

01 Jul '01

Hi Kunal, What do you exactly mean by re-building the kernel of a remote server? Awaiting your reply. ~Mayuresh PS: DO NOT send HTML mails, you are using Outlook Express, but most of us do not have an HTML aware email client. > > Hi, > I couldnt find anything on the ILUG site, on how to re-build the kernel of a > remote server... Could some one direct me to the right page? > Thanx, > Kunal

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Slackware
by Philip S Tellis 01 Jul '01

01 Jul '01

Slackware 8.0 is out. Has anyone written it to CD yet? Philip -- As Will Rogers would have said, "There is no such things as a free variable." Visit my webpage at http://www.ncst.ernet.in/~philip/ Read my writings at http://www.ncst.ernet.in/~philip/writings/ MSN philiptellis Yahoo! philiptellis

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Re-building the kernel
by Kunal Jhunjhunwala 01 Jul '01

01 Jul '01

Hi, I couldnt find anything on the ILUG site, on how to re-build the kernel of a remote server... Could some one direct me to the right page? Thanx, Kunal

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Re: [ILUG-BOM] Simputer
by Mayuresh A Kathe 01 Jul '01

01 Jul '01

> It would help if you could explain what you found lacking in their > X-implementation. And I don't understand what you mean by scalability in > the context of a Simputer. One of the biggest problems with the Simputer is it uses X. > | If you have to make > |a group of simputers work to help people you will have to rewrite hazzar stuff > Group of simputers working together to do what? I hope you understand that > Simputer is not for highend distributed computing. Just the fact that they are using X makes it straight away lean towards distributed computing. Do you know the power a StrongARM@206Mhz offers (remember its a RISC machine)? Its tremendous, putting it in a sickly handheld capable of doing the current things is like recruiting Arnold Schwarzenegger to pour you a glass of milk everyday. What Somesh probably meant by working together is networking... Devices so small should be able to network effortlessly with not just with their own kind, but also with desktop machines. > | I agree with mayuresh that > |a group of engineers can't make something worth the hype of simputer . > |In its present design simputer is useless piece of silicon. > > May be it is. May be it is not. But we should reason why it is or why it > is not. The reasoning will continue... ~Mayuresh

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Re: [ILUG-BOM] Simputer
by Mayuresh A Kathe 01 Jul '01

01 Jul '01

>> Encore developed the hardware and the IISc guys developed or rather >> put together the software, there are just a few instances where the >> IISc guys have litterally written the device drivers (I had > > IISc developed IML, the IML browser, text to speech converter for hindi > and kannada, integration of tts into IMLI, tapatap and some other user > space stuff. All system level stuff was taken from linux development > with minor changes. The IML browser (Imli) is actually "Chimera"... Actually I don't think they "developed" tapatap, but rather implemented one of the free handwritting recognition algorithms. I think most of the System level stuff (including the kernel) were taken from the StrongARM Linux port (I think that was the LART project) But they sure did a great job of implementing those technologies, better than re-inventing the wheel :-) ~Mayuresh

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NIC drops output
by Satish Dasi 01 Jul '01

01 Jul '01

Hi this is a newbie here I have 2 NICs both recognized by kudzu as RTL 8139 and RTLtoo. However after i changed the ip address on eth0 it started to behave strangely. Both the cards didnt ping their own ips neither the ips of the network machines to which they were connected. Is there a prob with the cards or with Linux generic divers????? Pls help me out in this Thanx in advance Satish

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Re: [ILUG-BOM] The Simputer
by Mayuresh A Kathe 01 Jul '01

01 Jul '01

> The main thing is that IISc will not be building the simputer. Only its > specification. The specification is released openly under the SGPL, and > anyone can build an implementation. The software is downloadable under > the GPL. Got that... But, what I am trying to point out (unsuccessfully) is that, I admire the things done at IISc (had interacted with one of the guys) but based on the things done at IISc (including the true goal of reaching the masses) companies like Encore are taking a free ride on getting the government to subsidize certain operations of theirs, that is really sick, beacuse for them its primarily business. Any ways, just for a bit of info about Encore, they have a whole lot of old 486 laptops lying with them which they are ready to sell off at dirt cheap rates (remember my earlier post regarding the same?), that just goes to prove the condition of the company... Well, its their job, let them do it as per what they think is right. > Anyway, I thought the project was good, and you didn't. Lets leave it > at that. Yup, sorry if I gave an impression that I want to prove you wrong or that I am right, just that I am really feeling sick about the whole issue of Simputer. Warm Regards, ~Mayuresh

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Remote Installation
by Kompalli SuryaPrakash 01 Jul '01

01 Jul '01

> Hi Linux Champs, > Is there any [simply ANY] way to install Linux REMOTELY. > I know this question is stupid, but any REMOTE possibilities, > ideas, thaughts, etc are really appreciated. U mean?? Like one doesnt have direct access to the keyboard / mouse of the machine on which u are going to install Linux? I dont remember any distro which can do that right now, But If u mean accessing the media containing the installation files remotely, with u sitting in front of the machine u want to install linux on, then this can be done using NFS,ftp or HTTP install.... u need to use the bootnet.img available on any any installation disk and boot off a floppy. Then follow instructions... Bye, SP -- _ _ |/ |_ |_| |\ompalli _|urya| rakash MSN : - ksuryap(a)hotmail.com Email: - ksuryap1(a)yahoo.com Phone: - 022-5506101 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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simputer
by Philip S Tellis 01 Jul '01

01 Jul '01

Ok, I think before anyone posts anything more about the simputer, you should first read *everything* on their website. There's no point arguing here about stuff that's already in the faq. Like I say always, read the docs, and don't ask questions that are already answered there. That's what the docs are meant for. Philip -- Make the coupling between modules visible. - The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan & Plaugher) Visit my webpage at http://www.ncst.ernet.in/~philip/ Read my writings at http://www.ncst.ernet.in/~philip/writings/ MSN philiptellis Yahoo! philiptellis

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Re: [ILUG-BOM] Simputer
by Mayuresh A Kathe 01 Jul '01

01 Jul '01

> The product is an Open Source hardware project, which has naturally used the > Open Source approach to its software development as well. The IISc has > undertaken the devlopment, with the active cooperation of many others. Now > that it has reached the kickoff stage, it is possible to reach out and > commercialise the production. So Encore (as I understand from the mails, I > do not recall seeing any announcment to that effect, but then I haven't > surfed thru the site either for a couple of fortnights) is one of the > companies that has decided to do this. Encore has not one of the companies that has decided to do this after the project is over, rather Encore has had vested interests since begining and has been investing on the hardware heavily. So simply put, the situation is like: Encore developed the hardware and the IISc guys developed or rather put together the software, there are just a few instances where the IISc guys have litterally written the device drivers (I had interacted with one of them, a guy called Pai, don't remember is first name though) > If the ex-factory cost is 3k and the retail price is 6k, does anyone think > this is wrong? Vickram, the ex-factory costs can't be 3K, just the base component costs are 3K. As in my earlier mail, add the rest of the stuff and voila, you have a "White Elephant". ~Mayuresh

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Simputer
by Vickram Crishna 01 Jul '01

01 Jul '01

I have been browsing thru the debate on Simputer, and am curious about some of the directions this has taken. The product is an Open Source hardware project, which has naturally used the Open Source approach to its software development as well. The IISc has undertaken the devlopment, with the active cooperation of many others. Now that it has reached the kickoff stage, it is possible to reach out and commercialise the production. So Encore (as I understand from the mails, I do not recall seeing any announcment to that effect, but then I haven't surfed thru the site either for a couple of fortnights) is one of the companies that has decided to do this. If the ex-factory cost is 3k and the retail price is 6k, does anyone think this is wrong? I very much doubt that the company will make any money at all on this for many years to come. Unless of course, it takes off like a rocket (a la i-mode in Japan) in which case I am sure that others will jump on the bandwagon and the price will fall. Till then the 3k gross margin per piece will flow out like water, absorbed by thirsty distribution, marketing and overhead costs. Why am I so interested? As some of you will know from my earlier mail, I have initiated the Hawking Communicator project in Open Source (www.radiophony.com/hawking.html) and at some point this project too will move towards commercialisation. I am keen to discuss all aspects of this with as many groups of people as possible, so that we as developers are properly prepared to do whatever it takes to get the software used. This is not the forum for such a discussion, so please do join in the development discussion at Yahoo!groups (/radiophony) or mail me directly. Vickram Crishna

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RE: Remote Linux Installation [WAS: Simputer]
by Kunal Walia 01 Jul '01

01 Jul '01

Try GHOST ! >===== Original Message From linuxers(a)mm.ilug-bom.org.in ===== >Hi Linux Champs, >Is there any [simply ANY] way to install Linux REMOTELY. >I know this question is stupid, but any REMOTE possibilities, >ideas, thaughts, etc are really appreciated. >Thx, >Sandeep > > > >_______________________________________________ >Richard Stallman's Public Lecture 5pm 17th July, at TIFR. >Linuxers mailing list >Linuxers(a)mm.ilug-bom.org.in >http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers - Kunal ******************************************************* Your work needn't be lost if you ever built castles in the air, now just build foundations beneath them. *******************************************************

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Re: [ILUG-BOM] The Simputer
by Mayuresh A Kathe 01 Jul '01

01 Jul '01

>>just that I am really feeling sick about the whole issue of >>Simputer. > > Tell me more! Sameer, which area would you like to know more about? ~Mayuresh

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Re: [ILUG-BOM] The Simputer
by Mayuresh A Kathe 30 Jun '01

30 Jun '01

>>Now tell me Philip, if you have used a handheld computer, is it >>easier/faster to type or scribble? >>Mind you, scribbling is not the same as writing. >>And the hand writing recoqnition technology can never be perfected, > > Did you read about the stuff called "tapatap" that they describe on their > website? From what I gather, they have devised a very rudimentary input > mechanism for very simple interaction when requird. Keep in mind that the > device is intended for _illiterate_ villagers, and nobody expects them to > enter any data in it. That is mentioned explicitly in the wired.com article. Now now Sameer, there you go again... Have you ever worked on a handheld? I too probably wouldn't have except for a rich friend of mine. What do you think would it mean by a rudimentary input system? Do you think just by placing a few taps you can access any data? For accessing data, you need to place queries, and queries need explicit search parameters, how do you suppose that can be achieved? >>the best of technology companies like Apple, Palm and a few Russian >>(who pioneered it) companies have tried and failed miserably. > So WHAT? Even the GNU people were unable to create a kernel for their > system until a University student from Finland came along ... Again, Sameer, have you ever thought about how handwritting recognition works? Have you thought or tried to code a handwriting recognition interface? Do you know how difficult it is? Or rather do you know a simple character like "A" can be written in more styles than one by multiple people with different personality types? That "A" is just from the Roman script, have you thought the complexity of deciphering any of the Indian scripts (I would consider Devnagari to be the simplest). >>Have you figured out the BOM of the Simputer? > I have to confess absolute ignorance in this regard! Thats OK... >>Once you are through with the above, tell me if its possible to create >>a "Simputer" (as the creators have envisaged) > People from the original Simputer team at IISc have established a > commercial venture just to do that - called Picopeta something ... Hmnn... >>One of the best projects in India?? > > Reminds me of the fact that India was the first country in the world to use > satellite communication for mass rural education, that too when India > didn't even have a single communcitation satellite of her own ... > > I think that what the IISc people are trying to do is to turn the concept > of a "computer" on its head. They are trying to use technology to help > people in a way comfortable to them - this is a place where we have to keep > back all our presumptions about human-computer interaction based on the PC. > Think of it as an interactive TV set if you want, designed to disperse > informatin rather than handle complex computing tasks. Now what do _you_ think is the concept of a "computer"? As you mentioned that "They are trying to use technology to help people in a way comfortable to them", that is exactly what _Human Computer Interaction_ is all about... So we cannot keep back all our presumptions about Human Computer Interaction... > I had always hoped to get close to the Simputer project if I had been able > to get into the IISc for my post-graduation; but I guess that won't be > happening now! If you hoped to get to IISc, well thats good, thats a neat place with lot of facilities... But if you hoped to get close to the Simputer project, forget it, its not worth it... Just a bunch of techies don't make great computing devices, for that you need to have experts on HCI and somebody with a clear vision about what is to be done. Warm Regards, ~Mayuresh

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Zen, network topology, and Linux.
by Satya 30 Jun '01

30 Jun '01

Hypothetically... I have a DSL connection to the World. A hub is plugged into it, and 2-6 computers into the hub. Naturally, the computers have a class C (?) between them, which should not be routable from the World. The computers have their own connection to the World through the hub and DSL. I think the whole thing is a star topology, at least for the internal network. Is what I have described above correct, and possible? I suppose ideally, one of the Linux boxen would get the DSL line and act as firewall to the rest through the hub? Now... whichever way, how do I do it on Linux? ipchains alone is enough? -- Satya. <URL:http://satya.virtualave.net/> US-bound grad students! For pre-apps, see <URL:http://quickapps.cjb.net/> Within five minutes, ReRob learned that walking through the basement of Fuller Labs wearing futuristic body armor and pushing a variable-geometry motorcycle raises eyebrows. Telling students that this is the true power of UNIX didn't help. -- Undocumented Features I.

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ulimit query
by Kanti Jadia 30 Jun '01

30 Jun '01

Sir, I need to set the ulimit parameter for all the users so that it is fairly large(Linux kernel 2.2.14). The problem is if i do the same for root than it is done easily,but when it comes to user x,it is giving me Operation not permitted.Can i set it globally for all users. Hoping for the best Kanti Jadia __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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TUMTUM - Technology Unto Masses
by G Waraich 30 Jun '01

30 Jun '01

In an attempt to garner political support for Linux, Jansangh, the parent organization of BJP is the first to embrace and promote Linux for bringing technology right down to the grass root levels. A temporary website for TUMTUM, which would act as a vehicle for bringing technical awareness to masses has been setup at http://tumtumonline.tripod.com The first awareness campaign, however is titled "How to Trace a Lost Mobile Phone" and it discusses the following issues 1)Country-wide, state-wise and metro-wise statistical data on the total mobile phone subscribers in India till April 2001. 2)the role of ESN/IMEI numbers and EIR/HLR registers in tracing lost or stolen cellular phones. 3)radio triangulation techniques, fore-runner of MPS, mobile positioning systems, for locating the position of a mobile vector for providing location based services. Early in July, a national convention of Akhil Bharatiya Jansangh is scheduled to be held in mumbai, where along with other things on their agenda, following two things shall be taken up 1) A formal incorporation of the technology division 2) A "bhashan" on why Linux is the only choice to bring technology to the masses and bridge the digital divide. Date, time, venue of the convention would be communicated to ILUG Mumbai Junta, as soon as available. Please be generous with your comments, suggestion, criticism about this development. Have fun, Vande Mataram. -- Get your free email from www.linuxmail.org Powered by Outblaze

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