hi nikhil .. what college are u from ? as far as CS syllabus is concerned atleast bbay univ is making unix as std platform for do lab practs. right from FE.

no ofense intended but just trying to get across some facts. i suggest u discuss this with ur friend.

ask your friend to name all his favorite dev tools under his favorite os. now ask him does it run on mainframes,Servers, desktops, pdas, watches,... ?

also a very good example is the bug patching For your favortive OS You pay $100s for OS , $100s for dev tools, $1000s for databases, $100s for office tools, $1000s for servers. that too with restriction on num of users. how well does it talk to other OSes. and must we say anything abt security. ? then you pay huge sums for every release of ms product. then if u get a bug all u do for few mins is gaze at the beautiful screen .

then you buy an update that will cost u another $100's or so.

then you find out that the bug u r facing is resolved in forthcoming release, but still not all and the viscous cycle continues. so effectively solving a bug takes more than 2-3 weeksin BEST CASE if patch is not there. at times your bug is not very important for ppl to bother to solve it. so finally u have developed an application with several compromises.

For Linux You dont pay for the OS and with comes loads of free dev tools, suites, servers, databases, progarmming languages, name it and it has it. which takes atleast a month to unleash their basic features.

with that u get the source code so that you can tailor your OS to your needs. if u find a bug all u do is correct the code and recompile the driver/kernel or whatever.

if u can figure out post querries to lug grps. expect replies in few hrs.or maybe some one has already patched it for u . so ideally you have a bug resolved in few days WORST CASE.

all the more if u develop a killer app or patch a deadly bug you just might find your code on the way to next release of linux. also which os gives u this level of h/w s/w control and flexibility.how well does it talk to other OSes

can his fav applications make all this possible ?

also acc to me linux is not for dumb users.

if u want to develop a game or a word pad it might be easy, friendly in windoz but what abt real time killer apps? what is the stability of linx servers and others ?

i guess philip, trevor and others can write more abt technical issues..

what else... abt arts/sci/ comm ppl i guess they have more exposure coz they have more choices.

dont ever give a stupified look to such ppl ... just tell them to try and experience the difference. folks please react

take care Harsh

Easy pal ,cool down ,

windoz (dumb) ppl don't understand this , they are addicted to it , they think windoz is GOD and Billu is making money out of all this.

Well i am very hopeful that LINUX will make a dent to this notion and will surely be a victor.

We all should encourage people to use LINUX and tell the benefits that u mentioned.

Ciao Tapesh

--- Harsh R Busa mailme@backendguru.com wrote:

hi nikhil .. what college are u from ? as far as CS syllabus is concerned atleast bbay univ is making unix as std platform for do lab practs. right from FE.

no ofense intended but just trying to get across some facts. i suggest u discuss this with ur friend.

ask your friend to name all his favorite dev tools under his favorite os. now ask him does it run on mainframes,Servers, desktops, pdas, watches,... ?

also a very good example is the bug patching For your favortive OS You pay $100s for OS , $100s for dev tools, $1000s for databases, $100s for office tools, $1000s for servers. that too with restriction on num of users. how well does it talk to other OSes. and must we say anything abt security. ? then you pay huge sums for every release of ms product. then if u get a bug all u do for few mins is gaze at the beautiful screen .

then you buy an update that will cost u another $100's or so.

then you find out that the bug u r facing is resolved in forthcoming release, but still not all and the viscous cycle continues. so effectively solving a bug takes more than 2-3 weeksin BEST CASE if patch is not there. at times your bug is not very important for ppl to bother to solve it. so finally u have developed an application with several compromises.

For Linux You dont pay for the OS and with comes loads of free dev tools, suites, servers, databases, progarmming languages, name it and it has it. which takes atleast a month to unleash their basic features.

with that u get the source code so that you can tailor your OS to your needs. if u find a bug all u do is correct the code and recompile the driver/kernel or whatever.

if u can figure out post querries to lug grps. expect replies in few hrs.or maybe some one has already patched it for u . so ideally you have a bug resolved in few days WORST CASE.

all the more if u develop a killer app or patch a deadly bug you just might find your code on the way to next release of linux. also which os gives u this level of h/w s/w control and flexibility.how well does it talk to other OSes

can his fav applications make all this possible ?

also acc to me linux is not for dumb users.

if u want to develop a game or a word pad it might be easy, friendly in windoz but what abt real time killer apps? what is the stability of linx servers and others ?

i guess philip, trevor and others can write more abt technical issues..

what else... abt arts/sci/ comm ppl i guess they have more exposure coz they have more choices.

dont ever give a stupified look to such ppl ... just tell them to try and experience the difference. folks please react

take care Harsh

---

http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com

On Wed, 4 Sep 2002, Q u a s i wrote:

     There are a *lot* of people out there who dont want to be

awake at 2am trying to get something to work. They just want to click, get a presentation done for tomorrow in 20 minutes and go to

powerpoint takes significantly more than 20 minutes to build a presentation. more than a few hours actually. even then the presentation isn't visible on an OHP because the person who built the presentation doesn't understand the difference between a CRT and a projector.

bed. I personally do all my programming in Linux (where lives emacs :). But I still trip on winamp+tripex3 and surf the net with IE. (X-windows suxx majorly.)

well, I use linux because it works better than anything else I've used, and it looks better than anything else I've used. Yes, I use X a lot when I'm at work, and it's painful to have to use a windows machine after sitting at my system. The widgets look ugly, the colours are terrible, the sharp edges I don't like, and the nasty double-clicking is too much for me. I use Gnome as my DM and Mozilla as my browser.

I can watch movies full screen, and if only I could get a pair of speakers in here, I could hear them too (my sound system is configured correctly).

on any M$ products (maybe). But I, at leaset, do not come here because I hate windows.

no, and neither should anyone else.

     I feel very queasy when people want to jump on the Linux bandwagon 

saying it is the coolest. It is indeed cool, but what is most important is that it has the potential to be ~170 deg K.

hmmm... cool enough to get frostbite. ofcourse, if that's too cool for some people, they could just switch themes, and linux would be hot!

On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, Sameer Shinde wrote:

A simple presentation can be done in less than 20 min. Ofcource if you want to add some effects in that it'll take more time as *any* creative work takes some time ( including programing )

exactly my point. so this is not a crib between windows and linux, it's a crib against people throwing in special effects simply because they exist. consider for a moment how much higher world productivity would be if powerpoint did not exist (at least all the effects in ppt).

Ordinary ppl don't bother abt that. They just want the show to be run on his m/c & his friends m/c. That's all.

If you go to a client's place to display your product, your slides had better work on his system. Even if you carry your laptop, you still need to view it in his premisis, with his projector, screen and lighting.

Again one biggest issue of Internal modems, they are not supported by linux ( although some but mejority of them are not)

actually, it is the other way round. the modems do not support linux.

I seem to have tread on many a toe here. But that never got me down... so let me continue so that the cluless newbies you so mention at the end of this mail get another opinion at least - and then they have a *choice* to choose from... :)

At 10:24 morn 9/6/02 +0530, TH wrote:

That's not a merit of Windows or a demerit of Linux. That's the result of Microsoft's monopolistic stranglehold on the market. You can run "any dam" souncard in Windows because the vendor of that card ships drivers for Windows with it. How many cards can you plug into WinXP and run them without vendor provided software? BTW, some of the reputed hardware vendors are now shipping Linux drivers with their products, nVIDIA, for instance.

Because Linux user base is growing. Because it makes business sense. Not because they have had a soft corner for the open people. If tomorrow Windows user base shrinks to <1% I am sure these same vendors will stop supporting it. Sure, Microsoft had a monopoly on the market, which is changing now (thanks to open source), but *that* was the result of how our society does business. Microsoft is not to blame. Did you know what it costs for treatment of Hepatitis B treatment with top of the line US made drugs? A couple of lakhs. So if my maid gets H-B tomorrow, she dies. She dies even when the manufacturing cost of the drugs may be only a few thousand rupees at the most. That is how the current world works. Sure is not great. But...

I agree that that X Windows is not the God of all GUI systems. Nor is MS Windows' GUI. Not the Mac either. Everyone of them has shortcomings. What hurts the most is that people use such generalized and derogatory words as "suxx" to degrade the efforts of brilliant programmers who are trying to make things better so that getting stuck into a monopoly is not as "easy" or "natural" as it is today. The word "suxx" has a really strong implication. I don't recall anyone saying "Windows suxx" in this thread.

Ummmmm... I thought suxx was an infinitely more friendly term then the cold "windows is good for nothing" quote by some senior member. I seem to be on the Windows side, but if you (had) looked closer all I was doing was arguing points against windows which were contrived (IMHO). I have been using Linux for long and appreciate the "brilliant programmers" who are doing a wonderful job by giving us their time. There was a time when for long stretches I had only Linux running on my machine. I hated windows 95. But I loved M$Dos. I learned my programming on Dos and had the most fun till date experimenting/hacking. I hated win 3.11 but I came to like windows 98SE because in my experience it did what is does in a good way. Is that a crime or is stating this in a Linux Group a Crime. Anyway I mentioned in only as an aside. The argument started on some different point altogether.

This brings us to the issue of criticizing Linux on this forum. Indeed criticizing is positive but to what extent is some critique helpful?

All this thread and previous thread are about morality/ethics/philosophy and are not technical for anyone to claim their correctness or falsehood. These are also important as, much of what Linux is about, is the philosophy.

Do we have anyone on this list who's directly involved with the development of X or any of the Window Managers or Desktop Environments?

Does that mean only those who develop are supposed to talk about it? There are developer mailing lists for that.

The best form of criticism is submitting bug reports to the developers. That, dear users of Linux, is what makes you hope for improvements in what you get.

I agree. But that is an action you should do, if you can. It has nothing to do with a discussion here. But do you know that to send any worthwhile bug report manually you need some technical competence? Sending "hey my X hangs on startup" does not help. Most of the people who actually test and report bugs closely follow the development.

This list also has people who are newbies and are here to get a clue. What message do we send out to them when we make grossly subjective statements about some rough edges of a part of Linux? And what message do we send to them when we whine like losers against the monopoly that Microsoft is?

More than that, the whining against "closed" software which is made out to be evil.

Linux may not be the best OS. Rather it *is not* the best OS. But it is good enough for anyone who wants to break free from the monopoly - and I mean _anyone_ when I say anyone.

Amen ! (again, Amen !!)

quasi p.s. if I have tread on some sensitive toes, I say sorry and am willing to compensate with some balm. ;-D

At 04:47 even 9/4/02 +0530, TH wrote:

On Wed, 04 Sep 2002 15:05:35 +0530 Q u a s i quasar@vsnl.net wrote:

...

I still trip on winamp+tripex3 and surf the net with IE. (X-windows

suxx majorly.)

Hold it, hold it. Circa June 2000, my Gnome + Enlightenment desktop was a showcase that caused many a dropped jaws. I can any day say without hesitation that Gnome (haven't used KDE) is ages ahead of MS

We dont agree. I have had X all the time past 6 years. But I have always found it be a substandard, and a rather ad-hoc GUI. The need to keep it generic and portable has made the X architecture excessively slow. They are bring in (supposedly) cool things like DRI etc. we shall see... I have used Gnome (Xamian & otherwise) and it has definitely come a long way but it lacks smoothness and that crisp feel. First time I installed enlightenment and the bluesteel theme even my jaw dropped to the floor. But enlightenment has eye candy but is bulky and slack & I dont like nor need all those frills while working. Sawfish is fast but still not smooth enough. IceWM & FVWM2 were the best I have used. Windows 98SE is *way* faster and smoother and crispier (talking about the GUI only) especially when you take away the web integration. In the past 2 years I am using it I have got the arbit blue screen only 4 or 5 times. And I have hung my xserver as many times too. Whatever you use, you have to tweak it for better performance, aint it so dear Sir? We can all equally say {quote}"I'm sorry, you probably never tried to go beyond the default settings of your window manager."{/quote}

stuff even in coolness factor. I'm sorry, you probably never tried to go beyond the default settings of your window manager.

pluze ! presumptuous are we?

I've written somethings at http://staff.ncst.ernet.in/tahir/Linux/ii.shtml#iii4

Excellent site design. I see that we have emacs in common at least!!!

in case you (or someone else) missed something about Linux GUI. AFA coolness is concerned

I will desist. :D

Uh, one more thing, visit http://www.w3.org/Style/ in IE6 and Mozilla (> 0.9), spend a few seconds there and then tell us what you saw.

I dont need some site telling me which is better - I *use* IE6 and Mozilla 1.0 - Mozilla is good. Especially Galeon is very fast under Gnome (as it is Gtk based ?) and has all the advantages of the gecko engine of Mozilla. But I find IE6 is much faster/smoother for browsing. Before IE5 came out I used Netscape. IE4 or befor were OK, but IE5 onwards they are good. On my machine IE6 is as fast as Opera. IMHO the best browser for Linux is Links. :D

I love GNU/Linux (not X)

Tahir Hashmi (VSE, NCST)

quasi (A generally trivial nobody.)

On Wednesday, September 04, 2002 3:05 PM "Q u a s i" quasar@vsnl.net wrote:

     Windows as an OS has evolved.  M$ is good at getting inspired

(read stealing ideas) from a lot of sources. But they put it in one package and give you. For someone who is not a geek/nerd/developer (or

all

of them together), and willing to pay a few Ks then Windows is a good choice. And - there is a *huge* number of good free software for windows too, of late.

     There are a *lot* of people out there who dont want to be awake

at

2am trying to get something to work. They just want to click, get a presentation done for tomorrow in 20 minutes and go to bed. I personally do all my programming in Linux (where lives emacs :). But I still trip on winamp+tripex3 and surf the net with IE. (X-windows suxx majorly.)

     We are all here because we love Linux.

But I, at leaset, do not come here because I hate windows.

even I, I come to Linux b'coz I like to experiment & play with softwares. It may be different softwares or different OS. I test them, use them if I found comfertable I keep it & start hunthing for another s/w.

After finding myself very much comfertable with windows, I moved to Linux now I'm learning RH once I find myself comfertable with it I'll swithch to another distribution or may be towards mac or FreeBSD It doesn't meen that I hate windows. If it has some goodies, it has it. Accept it. There is no harm in that. Nobody is going to Kill you for that. After being on the list for quite a long time I found that, some ppl on the list are not ready to accept it.

Some ppl say that Linux is free & so not is windows. But can they tell me what wod they have done if linux & all of its goodies were also not free? They say windows is buggy, even I say. But then everything have some bugs ( even human beings ) Nothing is perfect. We are developer atleast we should understand this.

I/we do some sort of programming & need to test it on different OS But for a general user who is only interested in playing games, surfing web & doing some work in word excel. Why should he swithch to any other OS if he is getting MS for free ( pirated )? There is no reason for that.

Note : This doesn't mean that I'm in favour of Win & opposing Linux I just want to clear a thing that If something is good, let it be good, do not blame it. Rather try to make your system to be good.

Thanks & Regards, SAMEER :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My Messenger IDs : MSN : s2sameer Yahoo! : s9sameer RediffBol : s2sameer Indiatimes : s2sameer Visit My web-site @ : www.geocities.com/s9sameer/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Adding on to what Harsh said, I would like to point out that most universities across the world are beginning to adopt UNIX as the standard platform for teaching programming.

Bhargav Bhatt SEAS '05 Columbia University, New York.

-----Original Message----- From: linuxers-admin@mm.ilug-bom.org.in [mailto:linuxers-admin@mm.ilug-bom.org.in] On Behalf Of Harsh R Busa Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 11:27 PM To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Subject: [ILUG-BOM] Re: [OT] Interesting Conversation

hi nikhil .. what college are u from ? as far as CS syllabus is concerned atleast bbay univ is making unix as std platform for do lab practs. right from FE.

no ofense intended but just trying to get across some facts. i suggest u discuss this with ur friend.

ask your friend to name all his favorite dev tools under his favorite os. now ask him does it run on mainframes,Servers, desktops, pdas, watches,... ?

also a very good example is the bug patching For your favortive OS You pay $100s for OS , $100s for dev tools, $1000s for databases, $100s for office tools, $1000s for servers. that too with restriction on num of users. how well does it talk to other OSes. and must we say anything abt security. ? then you pay huge sums for every release of ms product. then if u get a bug all u do for few mins is gaze at the beautiful screen .

then you buy an update that will cost u another $100's or so.

then you find out that the bug u r facing is resolved in forthcoming release, but still not all and the viscous cycle continues. so effectively solving a bug takes more than 2-3 weeksin BEST CASE if patch is not there. at times your bug is not very important for ppl to bother to solve it. so finally u have developed an application with several compromises.

For Linux You dont pay for the OS and with comes loads of free dev tools, suites, servers, databases, progarmming languages, name it and it has it. which takes atleast a month to unleash their basic features.

with that u get the source code so that you can tailor your OS to your needs. if u find a bug all u do is correct the code and recompile the driver/kernel or whatever.

if u can figure out post querries to lug grps. expect replies in few hrs.or maybe some one has already patched it for u . so ideally you have a bug resolved in few days WORST CASE.

all the more if u develop a killer app or patch a deadly bug you just might find your code on the way to next release of linux. also which os gives u this level of h/w s/w control and flexibility.how well does it talk to other OSes

can his fav applications make all this possible ?

also acc to me linux is not for dumb users.

if u want to develop a game or a word pad it might be easy, friendly in windoz but what abt real time killer apps? what is the stability of linx servers and others ?

i guess philip, trevor and others can write more abt technical issues..

what else... abt arts/sci/ comm ppl i guess they have more exposure coz they have more choices.

dont ever give a stupified look to such ppl ... just tell them to try and experience the difference. folks please react

take care Harsh

---

http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers

On Wed, 4 Sep 2002, Harsh R Busa wrote:

hi nikhil .. what college are u from ? as far as CS syllabus is concerned atleast bbay univ is making unix as std platform for do lab practs. right from FE.

I'm frm Datta Meghe COE Airoli ,Navi Mumbai (umm... known as NYSS among the junta) Actually our batch has Old syllabus (I remember working on Lotus 123 and Dos in F.E. ah.... ;)

I guess the syllabus has been revised .Never visited the F.E. lab afterwards. Our Electronics Dept. Lab *still* has Novell Netware.

The comp. ppl still work *exclusively* on Windows. OK there r some standalones having RHL Also the F.E. ppl I think telnet to a server and 'use' Linux (I don't know the intricacies of Networking but I know 4 sure that they use Linux commands within Windows )

Anywayz (IMHO) the attitude of many F.E. ppl towards Unix: join some crash course and get rid of the thing.

no ofense intended but just trying to get across some facts. i suggest u discuss this with ur friend.

cool no prob

ask your friend to name all his favorite dev tools under his favorite os. now ask him does it run on mainframes,Servers, desktops, pdas, watches,... ?

basically I guess the CS ppl hav a very nonchalant attitude towards Linux. Their question is simple and striaghtforward ... Will Linux give me money? Frankly, I have to say not as much as Windows.

also acc to me linux is not for dumb users.

:)

dont ever give a stupified look to such ppl ... just tell them to try and experience the difference.

Actually always wanted to organize a seminar or something on Linux. I just dunno whether I'm capable/ 'guru' enuff to do such thing AFAIK I'm the only one frm B.E. who knows quite a bit bout Linux. Can ny1 guide pls.

P.S. I always think that there's always something to learn about Linux You can seldom say with certainty :I know Linux Heck, is there a way to guage at what level I am in Linux ? (Newbie,experienced,master,.... guru (no way in my case atleast ;)

On Wed, 4 Sep 2002, Shishir wrote:

<snip>

I have been using Redhat since version 4.0 and recently switched over to Mandrake 8.2. I have already fiddled around quite a bit with Mandrake, Debian, Redhat, Suse, FreeBSD.

hey you r a veteren then :) (I guess I started with RHL 5.2 or somethin ..)

I think it is all about the attitude. So what do you think now?

exactly . Anywayz I was not trying to mean that non-science students are less capable of knowing an OS. It's just that they r not exposed to the environment that CS ppl are exposed.

On Wed, 4 Sep 2002, Philip S Tellis wrote:

If he's using MFC in C++, then his programs won't work because the M in MFC doesn't cooperate. Tell him it also won't work on any system that doesn't have M's hand in it - which means his code will work only on Windows - ie, he's locking himself in to one vendor.

Ironically that's the attitude of the ppl: Hey if my app can run on more than 90% of the PC's why the heck shud I give a damn 4 Linux ?

I mean when I look around and observe the apps:

The Encyclopedias, MTNL Cdrom, Various Educational CDs VSNL dialer :( Various Cd-roms that come with magazines. GRE CDs

The list goes on and on.. Everything has Min sys req of Win9x.

In a way ,I guess, the CS ppl hav a valid point.

...

I can only imagine what it must be like for Arts/Commerce/ ppl to understand what is Linux

much easier, since they haven't been exposed to bad habits yet.

:D

-- Nikhil

Nikhil Joshi wrote:

Ironically that's the attitude of the ppl: Hey if my app can run on more than 90% of the PC's why the heck shud I give a damn 4 Linux ?

Because not all apps run on PC's, you see. Many/most enterprise apps run on those "servers" running some kind of UNIX. It's great to develop an app on Linux (cost advantage) and then with a little tweaking compile and deploy it on another UNIX-like system (Solaris, BSD, Linux/390, etc.) for your client. That's what many software companies do! And that's also why these ppl (w/ that attitude) find it difficult to get a job after passing out.

I mean when I look around and observe the apps:

The Encyclopedias, MTNL Cdrom, Various Educational CDs VSNL dialer :( Various Cd-roms that come with magazines. GRE CDs

All these apps fall more or less in one category! Let the frog out the well and see the world is bigger (and beautiful).

Everything has Min sys req of Win9x.

Everything? :-)

Manish

(Playing devil's advocate here.)

On Sep 4, 2002 at 10:47, Mitul Limbani wrote:

:O yaa your program would only compile n run on Windoze.... while my program just needs a lil tweak n can work on whole lot of Architecture...gcc ....is the compiler which makes wonders... intel, sparc, mac, name it n it will run on it .....

"Never heard of it. Why should I care? x% (x>90) computers in the world run Windows. Servers? Haven't you heard of Windows NT?"

so your program is inferior compared to mine ;) ...

"But it works on more computers."

On Wed, Sep 04, 2002 at 04:28:57AM -0700, Bhargav Bhatt wrote:

Hi, Your second argument is flawed as products built with GCC and other Open Source compilers "DO" run on Windows systems as well at they run on most other systems. Hence such products, do, infact, have a larger scope in the market when compared to products designed in software like VC++ etc. Just my 2 cents worth.

Correction: Not programs "built with GCC", but programs written in standard C/C++/... and which "can be built with GCC¨ ( because GCC is available for win-duhs too ... )