Yes, I do have things to hide. Nothing illegal, just personal stuff.
can you give some specific examples of general identity data SUITABLE FOR such a system that someone may want to hide? So far, you have NOT given specific examples to explain the reason for being paranoid about this.
If you don't have anything to hide, why don't you put out your medical
history, your financial information.....?
I dont see how medical history is suitable for any such database.. (unless we are a nation full of 'sick' people ;-) ).. AGAIN, this CANNOT be a SECRET FILE ON EVERY DETAIL OF EVERY CITIZEN.
Even for financial information, the only thing useful for CIS to keep (or help keep) would be some sort of credit history record, (as we dont have a proper centralized credit history system in India, and that hurts our economy badly)
Would you be willing to be
searched randomly, because only those who have something to hide will opposed such searches?
If it is a system used to prove my credentials and credit/criminal past.. why not?.. In fact they already use such systems in UK/US etc..
You guys are forgetting that not all such information needs to be publicly available.. In the west, credit history systems CHARGE MONEY for each query that you make. Also, their are proper restrictions on their usage.
If you have so much time and money that you can buy a subscription to the "full access" (meant to be for organizations like banks and police etc)... just to randomly search for details of other people.. . yes, go ahead..
Think not of how it impacts criminals, but how it impacts the innocent.
by that logic, we shouldnt search air travellers before boarding the plane... 99.99% of the time, it mostly affects the innocent ... right?
What is your concept of perfect e-governance? That you can download and print the forms at home, and then queue up at the government office? Or do you want to be able to submit them online too?
How do you propose to implement identity verification for any such facility requiring "authorized access"? Why dont you suggest an alternative system that we can compare against?
Remember, such systems are already in place in many countries. The society in these countries is doing just fine. It helps prevent identity theft, money laundering, tracks credit frauds, promotes easy financing, easy access to a lot of government services.. etc etc etc.
On Friday 15 September 2006 15:22, Vivek Rai wrote:
Yes, I do have things to hide. Nothing illegal, just personal stuff.
can you give some specific examples of general identity data SUITABLE FOR such a system that someone may want to hide? So far, you have NOT given specific examples to explain the reason for being paranoid about this.
If you don't have anything to hide, why don't you put out your medical
history, your financial information.....?
I dont see how medical history is suitable for any such database.. (unless we are a nation full of 'sick' people ;-) ).. AGAIN, this CANNOT be a SECRET FILE ON EVERY DETAIL OF EVERY CITIZEN.
Even for financial information, the only thing useful for CIS to keep (or help keep) would be some sort of credit history record, (as we dont have a proper centralized credit history system in India, and that hurts our economy badly)
It doesnt. The banks are supposed to do due diligence and dont do so for reasons too numerous. Recently one FI now turned bank sanctioned and disbursed a loan to a tenant of one my friends without a single document (at least the FI was unable to produce them when asked). How does credit rating help?. The reason for economic problems is that the banks want to hide NPAs and dont share that info. The banking system might well keel over if the NPAs are openly toted up. And the NPAs are not personal loans they are loans to govt infrastructure projects, bussiness houses and industries most of whom were in dire straits due to government policy rather than anything else.
Would you be willing to be
searched randomly, because only those who have something to hide will opposed such searches?
If it is a system used to prove my credentials and credit/criminal past.. why not?.. In fact they already use such systems in UK/US etc..
Pleeease not those two idiotic countries. Blunkett, blair, bush, and rumsfield are one band of crooks u would not want to share anything with. The UK rfid passport (afair) is such a farce that inspite of grave flaws in the scheme they are going ahead. The shooting of the south american and raids on apparantely innocent Muslims speak volumes for conventional physical investigation. Imagine the mess if raids are going to be based on data mining whose params are unknown.
You guys are forgetting that not all such information needs to be publicly available..
Who authorises that is the question. If it is not me (for my data) i dont want the id. If the cops want it they ask me formally with a court order specifying why.
In the west, credit history systems CHARGE MONEY for each query that you make. Also, their are proper restrictions on their usage.
If you have so much time and money that you can buy a subscription to the "full access" (meant to be for organizations like banks and police etc)... just to randomly search for details of other people.. . yes, go ahead..
Like insurance companies
Think not of how it impacts criminals, but how it impacts the innocent.
by that logic, we shouldnt search air travellers before boarding the plane... 99.99% of the time, it mostly affects the innocent ... right?
They alrady did 100% scanning of all baggage before all the new found love for security. Just that the people doing it were not paying attention. Morover these searches presume the need for external weapons, which 9/11 proved to be completely unneccessary - bare hands do nicely. and there is always the dining folder / crockery / vanity mirrors / gold chain / bag handle. Id are only going to make the autorities stupid if used for preventing terror attacks.
What is your concept of perfect e-governance?
How about Citizens monitoring the government? U dont need any id for that.
That you can download and print the forms at home, and then queue up at the government office? Or do you want to be able to submit them online too?
How do you propose to implement identity verification for any such facility requiring "authorized access"? Why dont you suggest an alternative system that we can compare against?
There is no such facility that neccesitates an id. Provide one example.
Remember, such systems are already in place in many countries. The society in these countries is doing just fine. It helps prevent identity theft, money laundering, tracks credit frauds, promotes easy financing, easy access to a lot of government services.. etc etc etc.
HE HE. The two examples u gave have the highest number of frauds in all of these categories - begining with the President and the PM. And all of these exist because of systemic weaknesses not because of lack of anybody's id.
The case for a universal verifiable id is terribly weak and it's potential for misuse far outweighs any benefits. The more i think about it the lesser i am convinced about it's neccessity.
On 15/09/06 17:23 +0530, jtd wrote: <snip>
weapons, which 9/11 proved to be completely unneccessary - bare hands do nicely. and there is always the dining folder / crockery / vanity mirrors / gold chain / bag handle.
Camera, mobile phone, laptop, music player, water.
Devdas Bhagat
On 15/09/06 10:52 +0100, Vivek Rai wrote:
<snip>
I dont see how medical history is suitable for any such database.. (unless we are a nation full of 'sick' people ;-) ).. AGAIN, this CANNOT be a SECRET FILE ON EVERY DETAIL OF EVERY CITIZEN.
*SIGH*
Oh, so the next time you go to a doctor, your identity is established by using this card. Then the insurance comany uses the same primary key. Then you file your tax returns.
Then someone correlates this data (_all_ of which _will_ be made accessible to the government, and rich private organisations).
Even for financial information, the only thing useful for CIS to keep (or help keep) would be some sort of credit history record, (as we dont have a proper centralized credit history system in India, and that hurts our economy badly)
Oh, the threat isn't CIS itself. The threat is the creation of a primary key to identify a person everywhere.
Would you be willing to be
searched randomly, because only those who have something to hide will opposed such searches?
If it is a system used to prove my credentials and credit/criminal past.. why not?.. In fact they already use such systems in UK/US etc..
Losing freedom, one bit at a time. The US and UK are good examples of repression today, not freedom.
You guys are forgetting that not all such information needs to be publicly available.. In the west, credit history systems CHARGE MONEY for each query that you make. Also, their are proper restrictions on their usage.
Erm, there are no such restrictions. Also, these companies do not even claim to maintain records properly. Have you even heard the horror stories of people whose credit has been ruined because of identity theft, or errors in these databases?
If you have so much time and money that you can buy a subscription to the "full access" (meant to be for organizations like banks and police etc)... just to randomly search for details of other people.. . yes, go ahead..
I don't need money, I just need to be friends with the admins (or bribe or threaten them enough).
Think not of how it impacts criminals, but how it impacts the innocent.
by that logic, we shouldnt search air travellers before boarding the plane... 99.99% of the time, it mostly affects the innocent ... right?
I agree. Whatever made you think that the searches were for the safety of the passengers? If they were for passenger safety, they would be done outside the airport and away from crowds. A terrorist can still walk in and explode a bomb before the first security check itself. Those are for aircraft safety, because aircraft cost lots of money.
What is your concept of perfect e-governance? That you can download and print the forms at home, and then queue up at the government office? Or do you want to be able to submit them online too?
You do so miss the point. I don't have a problem with e-governance, I have a problem with a single identity everywhere.
How do you propose to implement identity verification for any such facility requiring "authorized access"? Why dont you suggest an alternative system that we can compare against?
Digital signatures would work fine, even though the government mandates a socially broken implementation.
Remember, such systems are already in place in many countries. The society in these countries is doing just fine. It helps prevent identity theft, money laundering, tracks credit frauds, promotes easy financing, easy access to a lot of government services.. etc etc etc.
I don't know about you, but I do deal with people involved with this stuff as part of my job. I can tell you that what you are saying is bullshit, and it does exactly the reverse. It encourages identity theft, credit fraud (against merchants rather than banks/CC companies), does nothing for government services ...
Devdas Bhagat
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Devdas Bhagat -
jtd -
Vivek Rai