ok i'll be honest. i am a OS/2 user (actually dos 6.22) with no clue of windows and *linux* if it makes you happy.
It's not about making anyone ``happy", its about what you say and what you stand for.
Gimme a break and be practical.. use the right tool for the job and
stop being a GNU/Linux fanboi.. and while you are at it, stop calling it GNU/Linux as well.. simply 'linux' does the trick. Don't get me wrong, I love linux.. it gives me and my family lunch, dinner, an occasional drink and a good life. I am a linux user/admin, not a slave.
A lot of us here too earn a living out of GNU/Linux. In assuming you are a ``slave" you are forgetting what the entire movement was all about.
Freedom is responsibility.. freedom is letting others do what they choose.
Freedom is NOT using things/encouraging(directly or indirectly) which take freedom away from you and others.
Freedom is NOT choosing your toothpaste, freedom is choosing
whether you want to brush at all (ok bad example) as long as others don't get affected by bad breath. Sigh, maybe i went to the wrong school.
try visiting gnu.org
If you fit the requirements and are interested, then send me your profile preferably in plaintext (but .doc and .odt are welcome as well).
you still don't get it. Why must you welcome .doc AT ALL?
Regards,
- vihan
Vihan Pandey wrote:
Freedom is NOT using things/encouraging(directly or indirectly) which take freedom away from you and others.
1. Freedom means STFU when someone says EOT.
2. Freedom is not about *YOU*, real freedom is about *OTHERS*
3. EOT
4. Refer point 1.
Sometime on Tuesday 19 December 2006 14:28, Dhawal Doshy wrote:
Vihan Pandey wrote:
Freedom is NOT using things/encouraging(directly or indirectly) which take freedom away from you and others.
- Freedom means STFU when someone says EOT.
I thought i was reading a public mailing list, where everyone is allowed to express his/her own opinion?
Anurag
Freedom is NOT using things/encouraging(directly or indirectly) which take freedom away from you and others.
- Freedom means STFU when someone says EOT.
I thought i was reading a public mailing list, where everyone is allowed to express his/her own opinion?
Nobody's impinging on anyone's opinion space here.
As far as the age old debate of ``is freedom to spread something restricting also a freedom?", i did do a LOT of thinking on this and i came to the conclusion, that such a thinking ultimately destroy's the very principal's of freedom one claims to have.
If he wants to use .doc files personally and get knowingly screwed, fine. But encouraging others directly or indirectly and then being belligerent about it by saying ``Gimme a break and be practical.. use the right tool for the job " is dangerous.
One HAS to be clear on it. DRM is evil, Software Patents are evil, and so are .doc files.
Also saying ``and stop being a GNU/Linux fanboi.. and while you are at it, stop calling it GNU/Linux as well.. simply 'linux' does the trick. Don't get me wrong, I love linux.. it gives me and my family lunch, dinner, an occasional drink and a good life. I am a linux user/admin, not a slave." proves an utter unawareness of all the other communities(GNU, ASF, xBSD....) and people who have contributed to the operating system we all love. It can't be ignored.
Regards,
- vihan
On Tuesday 19 December 2006 14:28, Dhawal Doshy wrote:
Freedom means STFU when someone says EOT.
Freedom is not about *YOU*, real freedom is about *OTHERS*
EOT
Refer point 1.
It would be an endless loop ;) Now STFU, everyone!! hehehe...
Disclaimer: Humor intended :P
Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Tuesday 19 December 2006 14:28, Dhawal Doshy wrote:
Freedom means STFU when someone says EOT.
Freedom is not about *YOU*, real freedom is about *OTHERS*
EOT
Refer point 1.
It would be an endless loop ;) Now STFU, everyone!! hehehe...
Disclaimer: Humor intended :P
Here is a Unix joke to cheer everyone. It appeared in one of the Reader's Digest.
A fresh tech support employee was handling the phone calls for a company and during the day she attended calls for support on windows, mac as well as unix. At the end of the day, her boss asked her about her experience. she said that there were calls from people using windows and mac but there were also some people who said they were having problems with eunuchs.
Regards,
Rony. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
On Tuesday 19 December 2006 17:28, Rony wrote:
Here is a Unix joke to cheer everyone. It appeared in one of the Reader's Digest.
A fresh tech support employee was handling the phone calls for a company and during the day she attended calls for support on windows, mac as well as unix. At the end of the day, her boss asked her about her experience. she said that there were calls from people using windows and mac but there were also some people who said they were having problems with eunuchs.
Its not funny. Its not a joke and it is based on reality. UNIX was known as Unics ( Uniplexed Information and Computing System ). It was pronounced very close to eunuchs. Hence the "pun" in your joke which I dont find funny at all...
P.S.: No harm done Rony ;)
On 12/19/06, Vihan Pandey vihanpandey@gmail.com wrote:
you still don't get it. Why must you welcome .doc AT ALL?
I've got an alternate interpretation for his statement -- I don't want to make document formats as a bottleneck for your submission since I care more about your skills than these things. Of course, I prefer plaintext since it's more readable.
Do realize that everyone does not own a computer at home. Some do use the internet cafe to satisfy their surfing needs and cafes and most cybercafes use Windows here in India. I wonder why you concentrated on the fact that he's welcomed the .doc format. He's welcomed the .odt format with equal 'vigour' as well hasn't he?
Zealotism works well towards turning users away from FOSS rather than attract them. You could probably have put it in a better way so as to get your point across without offending the other.
There's a thin line between "freedom to speak" and "freedom to speak without offending the other".
Regards,
you still don't get it. Why must you welcome .doc AT ALL?
I've got an alternate interpretation for his statement -- I don't want to make document formats as a bottleneck for your submission since I care more about your skills than these things. Of course, I prefer plaintext since it's more readable.
this is not about what is ``professionally better or more convinient".
Do realize that everyone does not own a computer at home. Some do use
the internet cafe to satisfy their surfing needs and cafes and most cybercafes use Windows here in India.
If they are going to a cyber cafe to compose and post resumes on a windoxe system, downloading a windoze build of open office and then doing the same in a free as in freedom file format is not really a mountain climb. Will it take longer, and cost a little more - yes it will. If they are ``really" that eager to get a particular job, they will do what is necessary, anyone would. If the are given a specific format for a resume, they HAVE to stick to it, or forfeit. If they are still foolish enough not to do so or are in the habit of mass mailing their resumes without a second thought to what the job is actually about, would anyone want to hire such people at all?
I wonder why you concentrated on
the fact that he's welcomed the .doc format.
because i believe it is wrong to use it.
He's welcomed the .odt
format with equal 'vigour' as well hasn't he?
Does that imply he would embrace both free and proprietary software with equal vigor as well?
Zealotism
Is believing in something and following it Zealotism? Do you think i'll pelt stones at him or his company, just because he uses/considers .doc?
works well towards turning users away from FOSS rather than
attract them. You could probably have put it in a better way so as to get your point across without offending the other.
if you think there was a better way to do the same please do mention it. Anyway i don't think he is ever going to forget what some people out there think of .doc ;-) and will make it point to mention it to everybody he knows with or without some adjectives which i'd rather not mention :-)
If there is even one person who actually thinks.... ``i wonder why that lunatic on the list hated .doc so much?" if that person makes even an iota of effort to search for the reason. Its worth it. Because then you achieve something which is nothing short of creating history, and that is - making a person think about something they otherwise take for granted.
Regards,
- vihan
On Wednesday 20 December 2006 02:02, Vihan Pandey wrote:
works well towards turning users away from FOSS rather than
attract them. You could probably have put it in a better way so as to get your point across without offending the other.
if you think there was a better way to do the same please do mention it.
Yes. Just show them how something else is better. Suddenly my friends are in love with pdf now, after using OOo. They used OOo for a while before they got their hands on the newest M$ Office, which supports exporting to pdf, apparently. Looking at that software, I can understand why they've thrown out OOo again. I can't argue, because they don't care about freedom. They want better software.
These are people who love their Kubuntu and ask me if it will be possible to run Office 2007 on Linux.
Learn to pick your fights. I will agree that sometimes FSF's attitude turns people away. For example, myself.
If there is even one person who actually thinks.... ``i wonder why that lunatic on the list hated .doc so much?" if that person makes even an iota of effort to search for the reason. Its worth it. Because then you achieve something which is nothing short of creating history, and that is - making a person think about something they otherwise take for granted.
Brute force isn't always the right choice. Learn to pick your fights. You would actually win more fights if you did.
works well towards turning users away from FOSS rather than
attract them. You could probably have put it in a better way so as to get your point across without offending the other.
if you think there was a better way to do the same please do mention it.
Yes. Just show them how something else is better. Suddenly my friends are in love with pdf now, after using OOo. They used OOo for a while before they got their hands on the newest M$ Office, which supports exporting to pdf, apparently. Looking at that software, I can understand why they've thrown out OOo again. I can't argue, because they don't care about freedom.
Then we keep telling them how important it is till they either realize or we have a dry mouth. In which case, have a glass of water and restart.
They want
better software.
its just not enough.
These are people who love their Kubuntu and ask me if it will be possible to
run Office 2007 on Linux.
and how do you personally respond to that?
Learn to pick your fights.
Mate, the was never any intention to fight or flame. i expressed my opinion, plain and simple. He chose to be belligerent about it and made it personal. The result was fire works.
I will agree that sometimes FSF's attitude turns
people away. For example, myself.
explain? Moreover what ``exactly" are you turning away from?
Brute force isn't always the right choice. Learn to pick your fights. You
would actually win more fights if you did.
i don't get thrills or trips about wining fights nor am i depressed on loosing them. i'm satisfied in an even minded manner if the point i made, was conveyed.
Regards,
- vihan
On Wednesday 20 December 2006 12:09, Vihan Pandey wrote:
Then we keep telling them how important it is till they either realize or we have a dry mouth. In which case, have a glass of water and restart.
Yeah. You know what happens? Its like parents constantly telling their kids what to do. Kids hate it. Never listen. Then someone else comes along and says the same thing in a different manner and the kids listen.
You just manage to bore people out of listening to you.
Yeah. You know what happens? Its like parents constantly telling their kids what to do. Kids hate it. Never listen. Then someone else comes along and says the same thing in a different manner and the kids listen.
You just manage to bore people out of listening to you.
Hmm... an interesting point. It kind of reminds me of school. ``Nearly" everybody considers history to be a boring subject and study it only for the sake of doing so. The truth is history is one of the most important subjects as it teaches you to appreciate the glories of the past and makes you aware of the mistakes made and urges you not to repeat them.
Well its no great secret that majority of the people find philosphy and ethics boring and making them understand is no easy task. For a simple reason people just don't care. An idea can only be ``sold" to most of them if they are convinced of practical benefit, this is too a fact.
Therefore, where is the problem - is it me lacking communication skills or people with a ``don't care" attitude?
A ``don't care" is NOT beneficial for anyone, not the country, not the world, not even the people who have it. The only way to change that is by conveying things in a manner in which they would pay attention. Was i too harsh on a newbie to our list? Probably yes, but he would eventually face that for some issue or the other anyway, that happenes to all of us. Would he simply abandon the system because i was harsh, that would => EXTREME OVERREACTION.
Regards,
- vihan
Sometime Today, VP cobbled together some glyphs to say:
Well its no great secret that majority of the people find philosphy and ethics boring and making them understand is no easy task. For a simple
That's only because you have bad teachers, not because students don't care. I've seen students who were really interested in a subject lose interest because of bad teachers.
reason people just don't care. An idea can only be ``sold" to most of them if they are convinced of practical benefit, this is too a fact.
a bad carpenter blames his tools. a bad teacher blames his students.
Therefore, where is the problem - is it me lacking communication skills or people with a ``don't care" attitude?
it's you. no one has a "don't care" attitude. You force them to tell you that they don't care.
Sometime Today, PT re-cobbled together some glyphs to say:
a bad carpenter blames his tools.
and
a bad teacher blames his students.
it's you. no one has a "don't care" attitude. You force them to tell you that they don't care.
without noticing that VP had stated ``most" and not ``all" people. VP also never claimed to be a teacher, as he's still learning. What he is clear about and does know he does say incognito ;-)
VP is open to learning more, and if you wish to say more he is willing to patiently listen. Btw are all and sundry willing as well?
Regards,
- vihan
Sometime Today, VP cobbled together some glyphs to say:
VP is open to learning more, and if you wish to say more he is willing to patiently listen. Btw are all and sundry willing as well?
so, if you're interested in converting a person's point of view, study advertising, marketing and PR.
Sometime Today, PT re-cobbled together some glyphs to say:
so, if you're interested in converting a person's point of view, study
advertising, marketing and PR.
Its understanding, and not conversion which ends up with realization. Its philosophy and not soap, for the future - its hope.
Pray tell PT, what approach would you use?
Regards,
- vihan
On 20-Dec-06, at 4:05 PM, Philip Tellis wrote:
VP is open to learning more, and if you wish to say more he is willing to patiently listen. Btw are all and sundry willing as well?
so, if you're interested in converting a person's point of view, study advertising, marketing and PR.
or make him an offer he cannot refuse
Useless topic on a very usefull list.....that's all I can say...
On Wednesday 20 December 2006 15:31, Vihan Pandey wrote:
VP is open to learning more, and if you wish to say more he is willing to patiently listen. Btw are all and sundry willing as well?
Maybe VP should start talking about himself in the first person rather than third person. IT IS WEIRD! :O
Vihan Pandey wrote:
Hmm... an interesting point. It kind of reminds me of school. ``Nearly" everybody considers history to be a boring subject and study it only for the sake of doing so. The truth is history is one of the most important subjects as it teaches you to appreciate the glories of the past and makes you aware of the mistakes made and urges you not to repeat them.
Well its no great secret that majority of the people find philosphy and ethics boring and making them understand is no easy task. For a simple reason people just don't care. An idea can only be ``sold" to most of them if they are convinced of practical benefit, this is too a fact.
Communication is a very important skill when you want to put your idea across. The point is not whether to teach history or phill. or not but how you teach them and get them 'involved'. Encouraging words always work better than reprimands. :)
Regards,
Rony. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
On Wednesday 20 December 2006 14:41, Vihan Pandey wrote:
sake of doing so. The truth is history is one of the most important subjects as it teaches you to appreciate the glories of the past and makes you aware of the mistakes made and urges you not to repeat them.
Sorry to barge in like this. But history is not at all boring. IT IS THE WAY THE DAMN EDUCATION SYSTEM PUTS IT THAT MAKES STUDYING IT BORING. Children will watch documentaries on WW-I, WW-II etc.. with great intent and WILL REMEMBER THE FACTS and FIGURES well! But when it comes to reading the stupid books written by some thickhead, they just get bored. Come ON there are not even decent drawings or pictures in those books for crying out loud!
Ahem...so in conclusion it is a flawed analogy...
Sorry for the OTness!
Let the flames continue!! :D
On 20/12/06 19:41 +0530, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Wednesday 20 December 2006 14:41, Vihan Pandey wrote:
sake of doing so. The truth is history is one of the most important subjects as it teaches you to appreciate the glories of the past and makes you aware of the mistakes made and urges you not to repeat them.
Sorry to barge in like this. But history is not at all boring. IT IS THE WAY THE DAMN EDUCATION SYSTEM PUTS IT THAT MAKES STUDYING IT BORING. Children will watch documentaries on WW-I, WW-II etc.. with great intent and WILL REMEMBER THE FACTS and FIGURES well! But when it comes
But facts and figures are boring. Trivia is irrelevant.
to reading the stupid books written by some thickhead, they just get bored. Come ON there are not even decent drawings or pictures in those books for crying out loud!
The books fail to cover the important things, like in-depth analysis of _why_ things happen. What is a minor detail. Why is important.
Devdas Bhagat
On Wednesday 20 December 2006 20:51, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
The books fail to cover the important things, like in-depth analysis of _why_ things happen. What is a minor detail. Why is important.
This is a really off topic thing to discuss. I seriously dont think we should be discussing it further...
On 12/20/06, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
Children will watch documentaries on WW-I, WW-II etc.. with great intent and WILL REMEMBER THE FACTS and FIGURES well! But when it comes
I have to mention Abhijeet (utopia unltd) who introduced me to FOSS. He had shown a movie on FOSS and it gripped everyone in the first go. Its a different thing that after that most decided to learn only enough to pass in the examinations and leave everything aside.
<digress>Does anyone have a link to a/the movie on FOSS history? Sadly I don't remember the name</digress>
Regards,
On 12/20/06, Siddhesh Poyarekar siddhesh.poyarekar@gmail.com wrote:
<digress>Does anyone have a link to a/the movie on FOSS history? Sadly I don't remember the name</digress>
It must be either Revolution OS (http://www.revolution-os.com/) or Linux - The Code. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3498228245415745977)
-- Vinayak
On Wednesday 20 December 2006 12:09, Vihan Pandey wrote:
These are people who love their Kubuntu and ask me if it will be possible to
run Office 2007 on Linux.
and how do you personally respond to that?
*shrugs* They use Kubuntu for everything else but Office.
Learn to pick your fights.
Mate, the was never any intention to fight or flame. i expressed my opinion, plain and simple. He chose to be belligerent about it and made it personal. The result was fire works.
Nah. Don't take the word fight so literally. What I'm saying is, one must identify the brick wall.
I will agree that sometimes FSF's attitude turns
people away. For example, myself.
explain? Moreover what ``exactly" are you turning away from?
Oh, I get seriously annoyed with some of the issues FSF creates.
Brute force isn't always the right choice. Learn to pick your fights. You
would actually win more fights if you did.
i don't get thrills or trips about wining fights nor am i depressed on loosing them. i'm satisfied in an even minded manner if the point i made, was conveyed.
Read what I've said above. In this case, I'm talking about conveying your point.
Nah. Don't take the word fight so literally.
i don't, but that doesn't mean i'll be silent.
What I'm saying is, one must
identify the brick wall.
One must also be ``headstrong" :P i know poor joke.
I will agree that sometimes FSF's attitude turns
people away. For example, myself.
explain? Moreover what ``exactly" are you turning away from?
Oh, I get seriously annoyed with some of the issues FSF creates.
like what?
Regards,
- vihan
On 12/20/06, Vihan Pandey vihanpandey@gmail.com wrote:
They want
better software.
its just not enough.
For a developer it may not be. But for a normal user, that's all he cares about -- better software.
Also, as a GNU/Linux expert, one is not automatically expected to have access to ways to enough money to buy a computer/laptop and have GNU/Linux installed to be able to churn out odf files at their will. For example, I would have had trouble sending my resume fopr this requirement two months back if the limitation was ODF only since I did not have access to my computer (which, by the way, runs nothing other than Debian sid). That doesn't mean that I do not know or care about document formats, freedom, etc.
For a developer it may not be. But for a normal user, that's all he cares about -- better software.
i say this more so for a common user than a developer.
Also, as a GNU/Linux expert, one is not automatically expected to have
access to ways to enough money to buy a computer/laptop and have GNU/Linux installed to be able to churn out odf files at their will.
O.K, so in that case the only option is the lesser evil. Go to the windoze filled cyber cafe and download OOo for win32 and use ODT. Is it REALLY that hard?
For example, I would have had trouble sending my resume fopr this
requirement two months back if the limitation was ODF only since I did not have access to my computer (which, by the way, runs nothing other than Debian sid).
You rock :-)
That doesn't mean that I do not know or care about
document formats, freedom, etc.
refer to the above.
Regards,
- vihan
On 12/21/06, Vihan Pandey vihanpandey@gmail.com wrote:
O.K, so in that case the only option is the lesser evil. Go to the windoze filled cyber cafe and download OOo for win32 and use ODT. Is it REALLY that hard?
You're assuming that one will have unlimited rights installing any programs on a cyber cafe computer. While this may be true for Win98 computers, most cyber cafes I've frequented of late lock everything except the "my documents" folder. Also, consider the amount of time I'll have to waste downloading a program -- zealotry at its best I'd say.
Devdas, I know that flaw in my argument ;-) I'm just trying to make a point that fanaticism doesn't always make sense. There are many other ways to convince users to try ODF exclusively other than flaming them.
Try this -- pick up an Open Source app (Open Office, Gimp, etc) and discuss it with a windows user who's used that app and gone back to the windows version. What you'll probably get are real reasons why it's difficult to migrate users (not developers) from one app to another. Do note that software "mukti" doesn't count for much to end users. Hell, in case of Indians it doesn't count for much for many developers even.
Also, note how IE specific sites (activex sites, IE only javascript) have diminished over time because of firefox (or iceweasel ;-) ). The reason is that users find it better than IE. I believe if openoffice was good enough, the same would have happened for the ODF as well.
Regards,
On 21-Dec-06, at 8:09 AM, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
I believe if openoffice was good enough, the same would have happened for the ODF as well.
open office will never be 'good enough' because it violates the basic principle of foss - many small tools, each doing one thing well, rather than one big monolithic application that tries to do everything.
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 21-Dec-06, at 8:09 AM, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
I believe if openoffice was good enough, the same would have happened for the ODF as well.
open office will never be 'good enough' because it violates the basic principle of foss - many small tools, each doing one thing well, rather than one big monolithic application that tries to do everything.
The average way we create documents and format them is possible in OO as well as M$O. Even before linux, I have been using OO for more than 5 years, downloading its versions using dialup. Sometimes I find it difficult to give tech support for M$O as I don't use it or have it in my system. Then I google for info. and convey it to the clients or try it out there.
Regards,
Rony.
___________________________________________________________ All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
On 21-Dec-06, at 12:28 PM, Rony wrote:
open office will never be 'good enough' because it violates the basic principle of foss - many small tools, each doing one thing well, rather than one big monolithic application that tries to do everything.
The average way we create documents and format them is possible in OO as well as M$O. Even before linux, I have been using OO for more than 5 years, downloading its versions using dialup. Sometimes I find it difficult to give tech support for M$O as I don't use it or have it in my system. Then I google for info. and convey it to the clients or try it out there.
what i meant is that savvy users dont use office suites
You're assuming that one will have unlimited rights installing any programs on a cyber cafe computer. While this may be true for Win98 computers, most cyber cafes I've frequented of late lock everything except the "my documents" folder. Also, consider the amount of time I'll have to waste downloading a program -- zealotry at its best I'd say.
Hmm... this looks like a opportunity for an interesting program. Since i'm not familiar with OOo internals, perhaps someone could enlighten me, what if we had an OOo build that was ``run out of the box", no need to install. Just download the package(a few binaries and libraries), uncompress and unarchive, then just run the binary. It would be an interesting thing to create. Any ``experts" on feasibility and practicality of this?
Devdas, I know that flaw in my argument ;-)
I'm just trying to make a point that fanaticism doesn't always make sense. There are many other ways to convince users to try ODF exclusively other than flaming them.
In the case that started this thread, how would you have responded to his requirement? Also, since his statement was
<quote> Gimme a break and be practical.. use the right tool for the job and stop being a GNU/Linux fanboi.. and while you are at it, stop calling it GNU/Linux as well.. simply 'linux' does the trick." how could expect him NOT to get flamed. </quote>
and a highly misinformed :
<quote> So what distro of GNU/Linux do you use?? i am sure it doesn't bundle OOo. Even if it does, they remove the capability to read / write .doc files.. right? </quote>
with such kind of statements, a person is sure to get flamed.
Regards,
- vihan
Vihan Pandey wrote:
You're assuming that one will have unlimited rights installing any programs on a cyber cafe computer. While this may be true for Win98 computers, most cyber cafes I've frequented of late lock everything except the "my documents" folder. Also, consider the amount of time I'll have to waste downloading a program -- zealotry at its best I'd say.
Hmm... this looks like a opportunity for an interesting program. Since i'm not familiar with OOo internals, perhaps someone could enlighten me, what if we had an OOo build that was ``run out of the box", no need to install. Just download the package(a few binaries and libraries), uncompress and unarchive, then just run the binary. It would be an interesting thing to create. Any ``experts" on feasibility and practicality of this?
In cybercafes, use live office suites on the net. Check out if they support ODF. :)
Regards,
Rony.
___________________________________________________________ Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail. "The New Version is radically easier to use" The Wall Street Journal http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
On Thursday 21 December 2006 08:09, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
On 12/21/06, Vihan Pandey vihanpandey@gmail.com wrote:
O.K, so in that case the only option is the lesser evil. Go to the windoze filled cyber cafe and download OOo for win32 and use ODT. Is it REALLY that hard?
You're assuming that one will have unlimited rights installing any programs on a cyber cafe computer. While this may be true for Win98 computers, most cyber cafes I've frequented of late lock everything except the "my documents" folder. Also, consider the amount of time I'll have to waste downloading a program -- zealotry at its best I'd say.
Rubbish. Pdf should have been available or easily installable by a simple request to the cafe guy. That has been the case with EVERY cybercafe i have visited across India. In 90 % of the cafes i simply reboot with knoppix and usb, only occassionally having to tell the cyber guy what i was doing (and sometimes having them peering over my shoulder abt what exctly i was doing). In the two cases where linux was refused was because they thought i would suck up all the BW!.
Devdas, I know that flaw in my argument ;-) I'm just trying to make a point that fanaticism doesn't always make sense. There are many other ways to convince users
Whose talking about users? These are the characters who are going to mangae others linux infrastructure and u tell me that they cant use odf. There is a complete disconnect in your logic and excuses.
Try this -- pick up an Open Source app (Open Office, Gimp, etc) and discuss it with a windows user who's used that app and gone back to the windows version. What you'll probably get are real reasons why it's difficult to migrate users (not developers) from one app to another.
Indeed there are and the reasons are very well known to us and has absolutely nothing to do with usability, quality or developer ability as the rest of your mail seems to suggest.
Do note that software "mukti" doesn't count for much to end users. Hell, in case of Indians it doesn't count for much for many developers even.
And your point is?
Also, note how IE specific sites (activex sites, IE only javascript) have diminished over time because of firefox (or iceweasel ;-) ). The reason is that users find it better than IE.
The main reason is that the web is "reasonably" standards compliant primarily cause bill-e-baba thought that the internet was rubbish and was late in getting his trash on to the servers.
I believe if openoffice was good enough, the same would have happened for the ODF as well.
It is infact a lot better. Except for the ability to faithfully reproduce the dirt dump that is .doc. Besides the obvious stupidity of trying to emulate thrash there are very many other reasons for which the beast of redmond is paying a fat fine in the EU and facing a fresh bout of litigation in the US.
On 12/21/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
Indeed there are and the reasons are very well known to us and has absolutely nothing to do with usability, quality or developer ability as the rest of your mail seems to suggest.
Guess again. I may accept this argument of better quality software in case of Firefox, KDE, etc. but definitely not in case of OOo. I use OOo because of my passion for FOSS and not because it is better than MS Word. The ms document format may be crap but that does not matter to the end user.
Do note that software "mukti" doesn't count for much to end users. Hell, in case of Indians it doesn't count for much for many developers even.
And your point is?
My point is that the FSF puts forward software mukti as the prime-most point to users when they don't really care.
The main reason is that the web is "reasonably" standards compliant primarily cause bill-e-baba thought that the internet was rubbish and was late in getting his trash on to the servers.
Not really. Even though Microsoft was late to jump onto the internet they had made a decent enough mark on it to have so many activex driven sites and sites with notices like "Best viewed in Internet Explorer". There has been a major shift from those days thanks to firefox.
2006/12/21, Siddhesh Poyarekar siddhesh.poyarekar@gmail.com:
On 12/21/06, Vihan Pandey vihanpandey@gmail.com wrote:
O.K, so in that case the only option is the lesser evil. Go to the
windoze
filled cyber cafe and download OOo for win32 and use ODT. Is it REALLY
that
hard?
You're assuming that one will have unlimited rights installing any programs on a cyber cafe computer. While this may be true for Win98 computers, most cyber cafes I've frequented of late lock everything except the "my documents" folder. Also, consider the amount of time I'll have to waste downloading a program -- zealotry at its best I'd say.
go to http://docs.google.com to create an odf document.
It would require a modern browser just like gmail requires and most of the cafe's have Firefox or a recent IE version which is enough to create a odf file.
Or is that a tough thing? May be you didn't know about it before then it is the right time to talk about it and start using exclusively Free Format content.
Cheers Praveen
On 20/12/06 23:19 +0530, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote: <snip>
For example, I would have had trouble sending my resume fopr this requirement two months back if the limitation was ODF only since I did
You know, the requirement said plain text. ODF and DOC were _also_ acceptable, but not preferred formats.
Psst, BTW, OOo runs on Win32, as does vim(1), or yuo could even use notepad. Or any webmail client.
Devdas Bhagat
On 20-Dec-06, at 11:19 PM, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
not have access to my computer (which, by the way, runs nothing other than Debian sid).
surely you meant debian GNU-slash-Linux sid?
On 19-Dec-06, at 11:11 PM, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
Do realize that everyone does not own a computer at home. Some do use the internet cafe to satisfy their surfing needs and cafes and most cybercafes use Windows here in India.
especially most freshers. And I am told its not easy to save word files in plain text. In fact, very few people own computers. In fact hardly anyone owns a computer.
Do realize that everyone does not own a computer at home. Some do use
the internet cafe to satisfy their surfing needs and cafes and most cybercafes use Windows here in India.
especially most freshers. And I am told its not easy to save word files in plain text.
In which case use RTF.
Regards,
- vihan
On Tuesday 19 December 2006 23:11, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
I've got an alternate interpretation for his statement -- I don't want to make document formats as a bottleneck for your submission since I care more about your skills than these things. Of course, I prefer plaintext since it's more readable.
Sifting thru the cacaphony, the requirement was for GNU/linux experts strange that an "expert" would need to be told about standards and the whole shebang. some expert that would be submitting resumes in doc. If anything just specifiying odf would weed out the "clicky certs".
Do realize that everyone does not own a computer at home. Some do use the internet cafe to satisfy their surfing needs and cafes and
Read abv para.
Zealotism works well towards turning users away from FOSS rather than attract them.
We arent talking about newbie users we are talking of "experts" who would be managing other peoples it setups.
On 20/12/06 11:32 +0530, jtd wrote: <snip>
We arent talking about newbie users we are talking of "experts" who would be managing other peoples it setups.
That's pretty irrelevant, surely? If OP was accepting mail from recruiters, he would get .doc.
Devdas Bhagat
On 20-Dec-06, at 11:32 AM, jtd wrote:
We arent talking about newbie users we are talking of "experts" who would be managing other peoples it setups.
very true - strange no one noticed this before.
Sifting thru the cacaphony, the requirement was for GNU/linux experts strange that an "expert" would need to be told about standards and the whole shebang. some expert that would be submitting resumes in doc. If anything just specifiying odf would weed out the "clicky certs".
...
We arent talking about newbie users we are talking of "experts" who
would be managing other peoples it setups.
well said :-)
now that look at it the law of nature prevails here as well :-)
Regards,
- vihan
On Tuesday 19 December 2006 23:11, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
Do realize that everyone does not own a computer at home. Some do use the internet cafe to satisfy their surfing needs and cafes and most cybercafes use Windows here in India. I wonder why you concentrated on the fact that he's welcomed the .doc format. He's welcomed the .odt format with equal 'vigour' as well hasn't he?
I am sorry to be a bit harsh here but when a candidate does apply he needs to satisfy all the requirements. NO EXCUSES should be entertained. Afterall, where there is a will, there is a way. So if the requirement is ODF, it is. If you can't satisfy it, its your loss.
Secondly, I seriously dont agree with the line of thought that .docs are evil. Yes they are evil in a way but be professional here people. What is more important? Getting a good candidate or holding on to some stupid detail such as whether he/she has used ODF or FOSS to create his resume. Its a resume. Thats ALL. You discard a .doc resume, you lose a good person. And I dont think I need to remind the potential employers here that there is a SHORTAGE of good, skilled people. Its the employers loss if he discards it without even looking at it.
On 20-Dec-06, at 7:34 PM, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
is more important? Getting a good candidate or holding on to some stupid detail such as whether he/she has used ODF or FOSS to create his resume. Its a resume. Thats ALL. You discard a .doc resume, you lose a good person. And I dont think I need to remind the potential employers here that there is a SHORTAGE of good, skilled people. Its the employers loss if he discards it without even looking at it.
although the very idea makes me want to puke - i have to agree here
On Wednesday 20 December 2006 19:34, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
I am sorry to be a bit harsh here but when a candidate does apply he needs to satisfy all the requirements. NO EXCUSES should be entertained. Afterall, where there is a will, there is a way. So if the requirement is ODF, it is. If you can't satisfy it, its your loss.
Secondly, I seriously dont agree with the line of thought that .docs are evil. Yes they are evil in a way but be professional here people. What is more important? Getting a good candidate or holding on to some stupid detail such as whether he/she has used ODF or FOSS to create his resume. Its a resume. Thats ALL. You discard a .doc resume, you lose a good person. And I dont think I need to remind the potential employers here that there is a SHORTAGE of good, skilled people. Its the employers loss if he discards it without even looking at it.
In THIS case the requirement of odf would actually help weed out the chaff. Infact one should compulsorily specify odf for a foss opening. Talking of shortages, qualification in most places is prescence at the interview. Ability to read and write is a definite plus. Engineers who were in a trance thru their engineering and dont know a diode from an iode and want the moon are the norm. So candidates who think netmask is the new krishh thingy to wear at the newyr ball and never heard of odf or standards would be common.
And i think in the light of the exacting standards of this discussion which competes closely with the quality of the object of everyone's ire (or luv thereof) - the .doc - the op was right after all. In order that we do not overtake the said object please dont reply to this mail. All is forgiven .doc pls post resume in anything legible.
On Thursday 21 December 2006 12:51, jtd wrote:
In THIS case the requirement of odf would actually help weed out the chaff. Infact one should compulsorily specify odf for a foss opening. Talking of shortages, qualification in most places is prescence at the
One clarification JTD, if you read my post correctly, I have mentioned that if the employer has set down a set of requirements then the candidate should have NO EXCUSES for not being able to meet them ( like not having a computer, not running Linux, not having OO.o or whatever.. ). But if the requirement does NOT specify ODT or whatever, the employer should NOT hold it against him.
In THIS case the requirement of odf would actually help weed out the chaff. Infact one should compulsorily specify odf for a foss opening. Talking of shortages, qualification in most places is prescence at the
One clarification JTD, if you read my post correctly, I have mentioned that if the employer has set down a set of requirements then the candidate should have NO EXCUSES for not being able to meet them ( like not having a computer, not running Linux, not having OO.o or whatever.. ). But if the requirement does NOT specify ODT or whatever, the employer should NOT hold it against him.
Agreed. No employer would ever accept a potential recruit if he said ``i know your requirement said php but i don't know php as i do have a computer and most/all cyber cafe's don't have php or do not let me download and install php. Thereforeplease hire me."
who would ever hire such a person ?
Regards,
- vihan
On Thursday 21 December 2006 19:57, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
One clarification JTD, if you read my post correctly,
I did. And agree with your statement. Not complying with the employers requirement without very sound reason is or rather was a ticket to the dustbin.
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Anurag -
Devdas Bhagat -
Dhawal Doshy -
Dinesh Joshi -
jtd -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
Mrugesh Karnik -
Philip Tellis -
Rajeev Sharma -
Rony -
Siddhesh Poyarekar -
Vihan Pandey -
Vinayak Hegde -
പ്രവീണ്|Praveen