I had bought it only to learn about DOS routines for the mouse. Interrupt 33h I think
There are other places where you can learn about interrupt 0x33, 8-bit colors, playing WAVs and displaying BMPs in TurboC, etc.. One of them is the Internet.
is a good one for beginners. And the reason YPK has "stressed" on those notations i++ + ++i etc... is because any standard aptitude test paper of any company will have these "clever" hacks in them which confuses the normal student.
These are not clever hacks by any stretch of the imagination. I have not had the privilege to look at the code written by any of these companies, but I have never across such things in any project worth its name. K&R is quite categorical about discouraging such usages.
Besides such examples help _normal_ students understand how exactly these operators work.
No they do not. The way these operators work is compiler dependent. eg., it is often said ++i is more efficient than i++ when one simply has to increment i. But there is no guarantee that it will be so in every compiler under the sun. Therefore they are simply misleading the 'normal' students.
I started with Gottfried's book, and when I finally came to Let Us C, I found it sick.
No need for name calling. If you didn't like LUC, just state it. Absolutely no need for name calling.
Thats just what I did.
Regards, Debarshi - After the game the king and the pawn go into the same box. -- Italian proverb
Sometime Today, Debarshi Ray assembled some asciibets to say:
I had bought it only to learn about DOS routines for the mouse. Interrupt 33h I think
There are other places where you can learn about interrupt 0x33, 8-bit colors, playing WAVs and displaying BMPs in TurboC, etc.. One of them is the Internet.
the pc game programmer's encyclopaedia (pcgpe for short) is one such resource. That's where I learnt a lot of my programming from.
On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 23:05 +0530, Philip Tellis wrote:
There are other places where you can learn about interrupt 0x33, 8-bit colors, playing WAVs and displaying BMPs in TurboC, etc.. One of them is the Internet.
the pc game programmer's encyclopaedia (pcgpe for short) is one such resource. That's where I learnt a lot of my programming from.
While I was in school I bought a book called as Graphics Programming Solutions. Nice book but entirely in assembly. I couldn't even find the BMP file format back then!! :P Will look at PCPGE :)
Dinesh Joshi wrote:
While I was in school I bought a book called as Graphics Programming Solutions. Nice book but entirely in assembly. I couldn't even find the BMP file format back then!! :P Will look at PCPGE :)
When I was in college, I bought 'Computer Graphics C Version' to help me out with doing graphics with C (using graphics,h IIRC) for my final year project which involved showing simulation results with C graphics. This book was too high leveled that I found no use of it. But, that book had a good explanation of how graphic programming is done, the basics of it and some real time examples (though it did not satisfy my requirements at that stage)
On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 20:52 +0530, Debarshi Ray wrote:
I had bought it only to learn about DOS routines for the mouse. Interrupt 33h I think
There are other places where you can learn about interrupt 0x33, 8-bit colors, playing WAVs and displaying BMPs in TurboC, etc.. One of them is the Internet.
EXCUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSEE MEEEEEE............. DONT presume anything about ANYONE.
1. I and other normal MIDDLE CLASS students did NOT have access to the internet.
2. There were NO competent faculties around to guide us.
3. We had to use whatever WE HAD.
Considering all the above facts, I think I've turned out pretty well. Whatever knowledge, whatever skills I have developed are all self learned. FYKI I got a decent access to the internet only about 5 years ago. You might've been on the internet ever since its inception but we mere mortals have not.
These are not clever hacks by any stretch of the imagination. I have not had the privilege to look at the code written by any of these companies, but I have never across such things in any project worth its name. K&R is quite categorical about discouraging such usages.
Yes, but it is the REQUIREMENT of the times. I have not come across a single place where YPK stresses the importance of using such kind of constructs. All he shows the student is that IT IS POSSIBLE to do such stuff with C.
Buddy, you might've had CSE gurus all around you but most average children dont. So we have to go by what we can find and YPK's LUC is the most visible book around. Few people have heard about K&R's books. Well thats how the ground reality is.
And dont even get me started about what kind of students we have. They cant even learn using books by themselves I dont think they'll be able to write even the "Hello World!" program if you give them K&R's book. It is in no way meant for beginners. It is mainly a guide to how the C language works.
No they do not. The way these operators work is compiler dependent.
Yes, its undefined behavior. But as mentioned by YPK, the defacto compiler was TC and he uses it to demonstrate how operators work.
eg., it is often said ++i is more efficient than i++ when one simply has to increment i. But there is no guarantee that it will be so in every compiler under the sun. Therefore they are simply misleading the 'normal' students.
The 'normal' student doesnt understand how a compiler works. 99.9999% of our engineers dont know what a compiler is written in. There is no question of misleading anybody. The rest 0.0001% students are smart enough to find the right way!
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 00:35:05 +0530, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com said:
On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 20:52 +0530, Debarshi Ray wrote:
I had bought it only to learn about DOS routines for the mouse. Interrupt 33h I think
There are other places where you can learn about interrupt 0x33, 8-bit colors, playing WAVs and displaying BMPs in TurboC, etc.. One of them is the Internet.
EXCUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSEE MEEEEEE............. DONT presume anything about ANYONE.
You do not have to shout. It rarely gets peoples attention -- it is more likely to get you kill filed
These are not clever hacks by any stretch of the imagination. I have not had the privilege to look at the code written by any of these companies, but I have never across such things in any project worth its name. K&R is quite categorical about discouraging such usages.
Yes, but it is the REQUIREMENT of the times. I have not come across a single place where YPK stresses the importance of using such kind of constructs. All he shows the student is that IT IS POSSIBLE to do such stuff with C.
If you think that "i++ + ++i" is a legal construct in standards conformant C, then people should stay away from wherever you learned the language.
There are no sequence points between i++ and ++i, so the result of the evaluation is undefined. Undefined means that the implementation is allowed to do whatever it wants, including making monkeys fly out of your nose.
The Quiz in question was probably designed to discover which candidates did not know enough not to ever use such expressions.
manoj
On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 13:28 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 00:35:05 +0530, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com said:
Fix your client for the last time or stop quoting me!
If you think that "i++ + ++i" is a legal construct instandards conformant C, then people should stay away from wherever you learned the language.
Do you have the habit of not reading other peoples' posts completely and taking their statements out of context, twisting them?
Behold what I had written...
Yes, its undefined behavior.
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 01:10:11 +0530, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com said:
On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 13:28 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 00:35:05 +0530, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com said:
Fix your client for the last time or stop quoting me!
If you would point out what exactly is broken, I would be happy to oblige. Seems like my MUA is correctly generating the attribution.
If you think that "i++ + ++i" is a legal construct in standards conformant C, then people should stay away from wherever you learned the language.
Do you have the habit of not reading other peoples' posts completely and taking their statements out of context, twisting them?
Behold what I had written...
Yes, its undefined behavior.
yes, after going on and on about how it showed how operators worked, and how it was used to show students what is possible in C. It is, in fact, not possible to do this in C, but in some extended version loosely related to C implemented by the TC compiler.
manoj
Sometime on Jan 20, Manoj Srivastava assembled some asciibets to say:
Fix your client for the last time or stop quoting me!
If you would point out what exactly is broken, I would behappy to oblige. Seems like my MUA is correctly generating the attribution.
Your MUA is using his email address as the attribution rather than his name. Since pipermail only filters out email addresses from the header, that means that you're effectively putting his email address up on the net for everyone to see.
Change your quoting style to use sender's name rather than email.
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 01:50:31 +0530 (IST), Philip Tellis said:
Sometime on Jan 20, Manoj Srivastava assembled some asciibets to say:
Fix your client for the last time or stop quoting me!
If you would point out what exactly is broken, I would be happy to oblige. Seems like my MUA is correctly generating the attribution.
Your MUA is using his email address as the attribution rather than his name. Since pipermail only filters out email addresses from the header, that means that you're effectively putting his email address up on the net for everyone to see.
Heh. SO it is not my MUA that is broken, but some strange phobia about letting ones email loose. I guess I am too used to real world mailing lists, like lkml, debian, and the fsf, to think it could be a quaint little reason like this.
Change your quoting style to use sender's name rather than email.
I'll consider it. Really, tell me, what in his behaviour towards me leads you to think I should grant him the favour of this concession?
manoj who can be reached at srivasta.ieee.org, srivasta@acm.org, srivasta@computer.org, srivasta@golden-gryphon.com, and srivasta@debian.org
On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 14:36 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
Heh. SO it is not my MUA that is broken, but some strangephobia about letting ones email loose. I guess I am too used to real world mailing lists, like lkml, debian, and the fsf, to think it could be a quaint little reason like this.
Strange phobia? 75% of the worlds email is spam. Wow that is a phobia, isn't it :) Oh and is this a virtual world mailing list? :P Maybe this list is just too below your standards. I'm sorry, we couldn't meet your 'real world' standards.
I'll consider it. Really, tell me, what in his behaviourtowards me leads you to think I should grant him the favour of this concession?
Uh...right...haha...
On Sunday 21 January 2007 13:23, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 14:36 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
Heh. SO it is not my MUA that is broken, but some strangephobia about letting ones email loose. I guess I am too used to real world mailing lists, like lkml, debian, and the fsf, to think it could be a quaint little reason like this.
Strange phobia? 75% of the worlds email is spam. Wow that is a phobia, isn't it :) Oh and is this a virtual world mailing list? :P Maybe this list is just too below your standards. I'm sorry, we couldn't meet your 'real world' standards.
I'll consider it. Really, tell me, what in his behaviourtowards me leads you to think I should grant him the favour of this concession?
Uh...right...haha...
This is getting out of hand now, if it already hasn't.
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 13:23:58 +0530, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com said:
On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 14:36 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
[srivasta@acm.org; srivasta@ieee.org, srivasta@computer.org, srivasta@golden-gryphon.com]
Heh. SO it is not my MUA that is broken, but some strange phobia about letting ones email loose. I guess I am too used to real world mailing lists, like lkml, debian, and the fsf, to think it could be a quaint little reason like this.
Strange phobia? 75% of the worlds email is spam. Wow that is a phobia, isn't it :) Oh and is this a virtual world mailing list? :P Maybe this list is just too below your standards. I'm sorry, we couldn't meet your 'real world' standards.
Attempting to hide your email away is like security through obscurity: it is a losing battle. I get between 1200-2000 messages a day, and am subscribed to wide open debian and fsf mailing lists, and yet I have not seen a Spam message in about a month -- so Spam detection and scrubbing can indeed be done.
So no, your approach is not only not the only one possible, it is, in my opinion, inferior to setting up a proper Spam fighting mechanism.
BTW, I would be happy to share my experience with the list; I'm in the middle of writing a series of blog articles showing how to replicate my results; if that would be of interest to people.
I'll consider it. Really, tell me, what in his behaviour towards me leads you to think I should grant him the favour of this concession?
Uh...right...haha...
At some point, you'll learn that you can get more done with honey than with vinegar. You never once said the magic words.
manoj
On 1/21/07, Manoj Srivastava srivasta@debian.org wrote:
Attempting to hide your email away is like security throughobscurity: it is a losing battle. I get between 1200-2000 messages a day, and am subscribed to wide open debian and fsf mailing lists, and yet I have not seen a Spam message in about a month -- so Spam detection and scrubbing can indeed be done.
In my experience, gmail has been quite good in spam filtering till date. Rarely has any spam email entered my mailbox. It's all directed into the spam folder. I'm not so sure about hotmail, yahoo, etc since I haven't been using regularly them for quite some time now.
Regards,
On 21-Jan-07, at 10:40 PM, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
In my experience, gmail has been quite good in spam filtering till date. Rarely has any spam email entered my mailbox. It's all directed into the spam folder. I'm not so sure about hotmail, yahoo, etc since I haven't been using regularly them for quite some time now.
why did this come twice?
On 21-Jan-07, at 1:23 PM, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
I'll consider it. Really, tell me, what in his behaviourtowards me leads you to think I should grant him the favour of this concession?
Uh...right...haha...
one of the nice things about this list is that inspite of the frequent flame wars and OT postings, everyone is polite - personal attacks and rude words are very rare - I feel that you have crossed the line here and are spoiling the reputation of this list. Is it so hard to be polite?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On Sunday 21 January 2007 01:10 AM, Dinesh Joshi cobbled together some glyphs to say:
On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 13:28 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 00:35:05 +0530, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@fsck.com said:
Fix your client for the last time or stop quoting me!
IMHO, Dinesh, such a behaviour from you was _completely_ uncalled for. You should apologise to Manoj and everybody else for such comments. If you are not happy with people quoting your email ID, you are welcome to have a separate email id for this list or even leave this list, but that doesn't give you the right to abuse people like that and call GNU Emacs a ``broken mail client''. In short, keep your paranoia to yourself. 'Nuff said.
Regards, BG
- -- Baishampayan Ghose b.ghose@ubuntu.com Ubuntu -- Linux for Human Beings http://www.ubuntu.com/
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Dinesh Joshi -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
Manoj Srivastava -
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