21 May
2009
21 May
'09
6:42 a.m.
I want to ask one question to all readers, Will the end-user ever care
End Users indeed are concerned. May be not with the name, rather with the
deployment. When we build and distribute Desktop Applications, end users
assume that they can just install the application through a setup file and
its done. When they want a backup, they just need to click on a "Backup Menu
Item" and enter the "Save As" file name.
These are the perspectives of end users. Now it doesnt matter if we use
My-SQl or any other DB, the users are concerned with ease to deploy....
Bye
Regards
if we have postgresql or mysql at the back-end
unless he is a programmer
or a techno person?
The objections were raised by a programmer cum hacker and his opinion does
carry weight if it helps improvise and simplify the target software.
21 May
21 May
6:46 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Thursday 21 May 2009 12:12:29 Pravin Dhayfule wrote:
I am an end user of a lot of software. I do not care how difficult it is to
deploy. My criterion is that it should work and work well. That is, it should
do what I want it to do.
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
The objections
were raised by a programmer cum hacker and his opinion
does carry weight if it helps improvise and simplify the target software.
End Users indeed are concerned. May be not with the name, rather with the
deployment. When we build and distribute Desktop Applications, end users
assume that they can just install the application through a setup file and
its done. When they want a backup, they just need to click on a "Backup
Menu Item" and enter the "Save As" file name.
These are the perspectives of end users. Now it doesnt matter if we use
My-SQl or any other DB, the users are concerned with ease to deploy.... 
6:39 p.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Thursday 21 May 2009 12:12:29 Pravin Dhayfule
wrote:
I am an end user of a lot of software. I do not care how difficult it is to
deploy. My criterion is that it should work and work well. That is, it should
do what I want it to do.
Difficulty in deployment gets prominent when recovering crashed systems
or performing some rescue operation.
--
Regards,
Rony.
GNU/Linux !
No Viruses
No Spyware
Only Freedom.
The
objections were raised by a programmer cum hacker and his opinion
does carry weight if it helps improvise and simplify the target software.
End Users indeed are concerned. May be not with the name, rather with the
deployment. When we build and distribute Desktop Applications, end users
assume that they can just install the application through a setup file and
its done. When they want a backup, they just need to click on a "Backup
Menu Item" and enter the "Save As" file name.
These are the perspectives of end users. Now it doesnt matter if we use
My-SQl or any other DB, the users are concerned with ease to deploy....
23 May
23 May
6:22 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Friday 22 May 2009 00:09:24 Rony wrote:
software that works and works well does not crash
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
I am an end
user of a lot of software. I do not care how difficult it is
to deploy. My criterion is that it should work and work well. That is, it
should do what I want it to do.
Difficulty in deployment gets prominent when recovering crashed systems
or performing some rescue operation. 
7:35 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
I would like to make a quick announcement.
We have now got our own mailing list server, thanks cis-india (sunil )
and thanks abhas for helping us out.
the users mailing list is at
http://lists.cis-india.org/mailman/listinfo/gnukhata-users and the
developers list is gnukhata-devel on the same server.
happy hacking.
Krishnakant.
On Sat, 2009-05-23 at 11:52 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Friday 22 May 2009 00:09:24 Rony wrote:
software that works and works well does not crash
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
I am an
end user of a lot of software. I do not care how difficult it is
to deploy. My criterion is that it should work and work well. That is, it
should do what I want it to do.
Difficulty in deployment gets prominent when recovering crashed systems
or performing some rescue operation. 
8:03 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Friday 22 May 2009 00:09:24 Rony wrote:
I am an end user of a lot of software. I do not care how difficult it is
to deploy. My criterion is that it should work and work well. That is, it
should do what I want it to do.
Difficulty in deployment gets prominent when recovering crashed systems
or performing some rescue operation.
software that works and works well does not crash
Reminds me of one of Murphy's laws
"Anyone who designs anything foolproof has obviously underestimated
the ingenuity of fools"
If I understand correctly, crashes and rescue operations are different
from deployment in the simple sense
that deployment deals with setup of the software and its environment,
whereas crash recovery and rescue
deals with data management.
hence, deployment in case of crashed system will still be snapshotting
the corrupted system for recovery and
and factory reset of the software system. Import of base
environment/user settings will be a boon in this
scenario.
just my peanut worth of thought ;)
Regards
Surya Pratap
6:02 p.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Friday 22 May 2009 00:09:24 Rony wrote:
software that works and works well does not crash
Software runs on an operating system. No software is un-crashable as it
is also linked to hardware. No hardware is un-crashable.
--
Regards,
Rony.
GNU/Linux !
No Viruses
No Spyware
Only Freedom.
I am an
end user of a lot of software. I do not care how difficult it is
to deploy. My criterion is that it should work and work well. That is, it
should do what I want it to do.
Difficulty in deployment gets prominent when recovering crashed systems
or performing some rescue operation.
24 May
24 May
7:46 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Saturday 23 May 2009 23:32:22 Rony wrote:
hardware crashes - a proper backup policy makes that irrelevant to the
organisation. Software that crashes and destroys data is unacceptable.
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
software that
works and works well does not crash
Software runs on an operating system. No software is un-crashable as it
is also linked to hardware. No hardware is un-crashable. 
7:59 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Sunday 24 May 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Saturday 23 May 2009 23:32:22 Rony wrote:
hardware crashes - a proper backup policy makes that irrelevant to the
organisation.
hardware failures != hardware crashes.
Failure of devices is an accepted fact of life - and is well quantified (or
atleast supposed to be).
But crashes due to buggy hardware is equally unacceptable.
software
that works and works well does not crash
Software runs on an operating system. No software is un-crashable as it
is also linked to hardware. No hardware is un-crashable. Software that crashes and destroys data is
unacceptable.
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
--
Rgds
JTD
21 May
21 May
7:58 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
hi Pravin,
On Thu, 2009-05-21 at 12:12 +0530, Pravin Dhayfule wrote:
End Users indeed are concerned. May be not with the
name, rather with the
deployment. When we build and distribute Desktop Applications, end users
assume that they can just install the application through a setup file and
its done. When they want a backup, they just need to click on a "Backup Menu
Item" and enter the "Save As" file name.
But how does that relate to having or not having a certain software
component which the user would never go and see?
As you rightly said, all that users want is a button to back up, button
to restore, may be a button to change the server location etc.
These are the perspectives of end users. Now it doesnt
matter if we use
My-SQl or any other DB, the users are concerned with ease to deploy....
And performance, which is the responsibility of the developer. And I am
dead sure a toy database for personal level data is never going to be
choice for a big accounting software.
Again end-users are if different types. A sysadmin is an end user and a
data entry person is an enduser as well.
happy hacking.
Krishnakant.
Bye
Regards
6:49 p.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
Pravin Dhayfule wrote:
Given a choice between different software, companies will choose
software that is easier to deploy and maintain. Of course price is an
important factor too.
--
Regards,
Rony.
GNU/Linux !
No Viruses
No Spyware
Only Freedom.
I want to ask
one question to all readers, Will the end-user ever care
End Users indeed are concerned. May be not with the name, rather with the
deployment. When we build and distribute Desktop Applications, end users
assume that they can just install the application through a setup file and
its done. When they want a backup, they just need to click on a "Backup Menu
Item" and enter the "Save As" file name.
These are the perspectives of end users. Now it doesnt matter if we use
My-SQl or any other DB, the users are concerned with ease to deploy....
if we have postgresql or mysql at the back-end
unless he is a programmer
or a techno person?
The objections were raised by a programmer cum hacker and his opinion does
carry weight if it helps improvise and simplify the target software.
23 May
23 May
6:19 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Friday 22 May 2009 00:19:05 Rony wrote:
some companies
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
These are the
perspectives of end users. Now it doesnt matter if we use
My-SQl or any other DB, the users are concerned with ease to deploy....
Given a choice between different software, companies will choose
software that is easier to deploy and maintain
6:07 p.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Friday 22 May 2009 00:19:05 Rony wrote:
some companies
many companies.
--
Regards,
Rony.
GNU/Linux !
No Viruses
No Spyware
Only Freedom.
These are
the perspectives of end users. Now it doesnt matter if we use
My-SQl or any other DB, the users are concerned with ease to deploy....
Given a choice between different software, companies will choose
software that is easier to deploy and maintain
6:14 p.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
Most companies want software that works well, is easy to recover but
most importantly flexible enough that almost every time it has the
features direct or indirect to do what the management and data entry
people want to do including analyst and others.
If this is provided they will bare with a little bit of learning curve
but not a very steep one.
happy hacking.
Krishnakant
On Sat, 2009-05-23 at 23:37 +0530, Rony wrote:
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Friday 22 May 2009 00:19:05 Rony wrote:
some companies
many companies.
--
Regards,
Rony.
GNU/Linux !
No Viruses
No Spyware
Only Freedom.
These are
the perspectives of end users. Now it doesnt matter if we use
My-SQl or any other DB, the users are concerned with ease to deploy....
Given a choice between different software, companies will choose
software that is easier to deploy and maintain
6:37 p.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
Krishnakant wrote:
Most companies want software that works well, is easy
to recover but
most importantly flexible enough that almost every time it has the
features direct or indirect to do what the management and data entry
people want to do including analyst and others.
If this is provided they will bare with a little bit of learning curve
but not a very steep one.
Exactly my point.
--
Regards,
Rony.
GNU/Linux !
No Viruses
No Spyware
Only Freedom.
24 May
24 May
8:03 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
Krishnakant wrote:
Most companies want software that works well, is easy
to recover but
most importantly flexible enough that almost every time it has the
features direct or indirect to do what the management and data entry
people want to do including analyst and others.
If this is provided they will bare with a little bit of learning curve
but not a very steep one.
happy hacking.
Krishnakant
Has top posting been accepted as proper in this mailing list ??
there seems to be some kind of a surge in the number of
top posted messages in this group.
Regards
Surya
8:22 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Sun, 2009-05-24 at 13:33 +0530, Surya Pratap wrote:
Has top posting been accepted as proper in this
mailing list ??
there seems to be some kind of a surge in the number of
top posted messages in this group.
While this might be a issue for debait, I think
generaly a quick comment
is good at the top because then people don't have to scroll the entire
message just to see "I agree but just that this might not work in some
situations ".
May be many of us now a days are too busy to write or scroll long
messages.
For example I am not top posting to this message because what ever I am
writing is not a "short quick comment ".
So I think it depends.
Again, this is my personal view and since there are a few who top post
quick comments, I believe they might be having a similar thinking.
happy hacking.
Krishnakant.
3:30 p.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
Krishnakant wrote:
On Sun, 2009-05-24 at 13:33 +0530, Surya Pratap
wrote:
have you tried replying to mails from mobiles ?
Doing a scroll down and inserting the reply is not feasible.
Also in many of the mobile email software, the reader is not able to
figure what is being inserted by the poster.
Has top posting been accepted as proper in this
mailing list ??
there seems to be some kind of a surge in the number of
top posted messages in this group.
While this might be a issue for debait, I think generaly a quick comment
is good at the top because then people don't have to scroll the entire
message just to see "I agree but just that this might not work in some
situations ".
May be many of us now a days are too busy to write or scroll long
messages.
For example I am not top posting to this message because what ever I am
writing is not a "short quick comment ".
So I think it depends.
Again, this is my personal view and since there are a few who top post
quick comments, I believe they might be having a similar thinking.
happy hacking.
Krishnakant.
7:46 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Saturday 23 May 2009 23:37:58 Rony wrote:
many companies.
badly run companies.
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
Given a choice between different software, companies
will choose
software that is easier to deploy and maintain
some companies
8:02 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Sunday 24 May 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Saturday 23 May 2009 23:37:58 Rony wrote:
many companies.
badly run companies.
I would not term them "badly" run - more like not IT savvy. Their core
competencies are elsewhere and very many are excellent in their arenas. But
not knowing facts about FLOSS makes them very vulnerable. Many try very hard
to plug in the gaping holes with all sorts of hardware and software.
Given a choice between different software, companies
will choose
software that is easier to deploy and maintain
some companies
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
--
Rgds
JTD
1:54 p.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
jtd wrote:
On Sunday 24 May 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
Its not about FLOSS or closed software but the ease at which the
software can be installed and maintained by the user company. A
developer cannot force a complex installation on the target company
simply because a simpler method was not developed. The one who develops
a simpler method will get more preference.
--
Regards,
Rony.
GNU/Linux !
No Viruses
No Spyware
Only Freedom.
On Saturday 23 May 2009 23:37:58 Rony wrote:
badly run companies.
I would not term them "badly" run - more like not IT savvy. Their core
competencies are elsewhere and very many are excellent in their arenas. But
not knowing facts about FLOSS makes them very vulnerable. Many try very hard
to plug in the gaping holes with all sorts of hardware and software.
> Given
a choice between different software, companies will choose
> software that is easier to deploy and maintain
>
>
some companies
many companies.
26 May
26 May
5:04 p.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Sunday 24 May 2009, Rony wrote:
jtd wrote:
Closed software is an absolute nightmare to maintain.. Even installation of
something like AV is a major hassle (as witnessed by me, as a spectator).
Reinstall - clash with another AV - uninstall both - reinstall, no go - call
up vendor - appear mumbling idiot - uninstall - reinstall - ....... 2 days to
install AV. AND in the end problems with ERP.
BTW the first AV was a licenced version which failed to prevent some worm or
the other. And (funnily) an older employee remembered that the 2nd one (now
reincarnated) was dumped because of the same reason.
On Sunday 24 May 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
Its not about FLOSS or closed software but the ease at which the
software can be installed and maintained by the user company. On Saturday 23 May 2009 23:37:58 Rony wrote:
I would not term them "badly" run - more like not IT savvy. Their core
competencies are elsewhere and very many are excellent in their arenas.
But not knowing facts about FLOSS makes them very vulnerable. Many try
very hard to plug in the gaping holes with all sorts of hardware and
software. >> Given a choice between different
software, companies will choose
>> software that is easier to deploy and maintain
>
> some companies
many companies.
badly run companies. A
developer cannot force a complex installation on the target company
simply because a simpler method was not developed. The one who develops
a simpler method will get more preference.
True. But "simpler" is a very relative term even within an os's reference
frame. What matters more than anything else is stability.
Even if you had a one click install on doze, the OS limitations would trump
any easy installation procedure.
--
Regards,
Rony.
GNU/Linux !
No Viruses
No Spyware
Only Freedom.
--
Rgds
JTD
27 May
27 May
12:40 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Tuesday 26 May 2009 22:34:55 jtd wrote:
what is AV? and how is your installation of AVsap going?
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
Its not about
FLOSS or closed software but the ease at which the
software can be installed and maintained by the user company.
Closed software is an absolute nightmare to maintain.. Even installation of
something like AV is a major hassle (as witnessed by me, as a spectator).
Reinstall - clash with another AV - uninstall both - reinstall, no go -
call up vendor - appear mumbling idiot - uninstall - reinstall - ....... 2
days to install AV. AND in the end problems with ERP.
BTW the first AV was a licenced version which failed to prevent some worm
or the other. And (funnily) an older employee remembered that the 2nd one
(now reincarnated) was dumped because of the same reason.
1:54 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Tuesday 26 May 2009 22:34:55 jtd wrote:
what is AV? and how is your installation of AVsap goinga?
AV = Anti Virus
AVsap = Anti virus for sap ?
(sorry, couldnt resist that one)
Its not
about FLOSS or closed software but the ease at which the
software can be installed and maintained by the user company.
Closed software is an absolute nightmare to maintain.. Even installation
of
something like AV is a major hassle (as witnessed by me, as a spectator).
Reinstall - clash with another AV - uninstall both - reinstall, no go -
call up vendor - appear mumbling idiot - uninstall - reinstall - ....... 2
days to install AV. AND in the end problems with ERP.
BTW the first AV was a licenced version which failed to prevent some worm
or the other. And (funnily) an older employee remembered that the 2nd one
(now reincarnated) was dumped because of the same reason.
2:45 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Wednesday 27 May 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
Havent started as yet. In the middle of shifting office premises. Hope to
start testing both by the weekend.
BTW I had tried to check out GNU-khata a few months back, but could not find
the code or licence afair. Afair i thought it was a "closed" software being
developed "secretly".
--
Rgds
JTD
On Tuesday 26 May 2009 22:34:55 jtd wrote:
BTW the first
AV was a licenced version which failed to prevent some worm
or the other. And (funnily) an older employee remembered that the 2nd one
(now reincarnated) was dumped because of the same reason.
what is AV? and how is your installation of AVsap going?
3:52 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Wednesday 27 May 2009 08:15:10 jtd wrote:
Havent started as yet. In the middle of shifting office premises. Hope to
start testing both by the weekend.
BTW I had tried to check out GNU-khata a few months back, but could not
find the code or licence afair. Afair i thought it was a "closed" software
being developed "secretly".
even now it is open software being developed in a closed manner. I see a lot
of this going on - the idea of commit early commit often and of having the
bleeding edge stuff in trunk (even if half of it is not working) is foreign to
a lot of people. They want to release only when it is 'perfect' or
'complete'.
Forgetting that no software is ever perfect or complete.
The advantage of the open manner of development is that one gets feedback on
every change made - rather than feedback when it is too late to make changes.
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
BTW the first AV was a licenced version which failed
to prevent some
worm or the other. And (funnily) an older employee remembered that the
2nd one (now reincarnated) was dumped because of the same reason.
what is AV? and how is your installation of AVsap going?
6:29 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Wednesday 27 May 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
+1
Hope the developers do seriously reconsider.
It just doesnt make sense to be gpld without the FLOSS dev process.
--
Rgds
JTD
On Wednesday 27 May 2009 08:15:10 jtd wrote:
Havent started
as yet. In the middle of shifting office premises. Hope to
start testing both by the weekend.
BTW I had tried to check out GNU-khata a few months back, but could not
find the code or licence afair. Afair i thought it was a "closed"
software being developed "secretly".
even now it is open software being developed in a closed manner. I see a
lot of this going on - the idea of commit early commit often and of having
the bleeding edge stuff in trunk (even if half of it is not working) is
foreign to a lot of people. They want to release only when it is 'perfect'
or 'complete'. Forgetting that no software is ever perfect or complete.
The advantage of the open manner of development is that one gets feedback
on every change made - rather than feedback when it is too late to make
changes. --
7 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Wednesday 27 May 2009 11:59:10 jtd wrote:
one problem is that the developers are probably all sitting in the same room.
The have to get out of the habit of talking to each other and into the habit
of communicating through the mailing list and sharing their code through the
repository. It is very important to discuss *every* issue on the mailing list
or on the wiki, otherwise it is not documented. A couple of us are developing
an application under pressure, and we have made something like 30 commits in
the last 2 days. I think this link should be compulsory reading for all would-
be foss developers:
http://producingoss.com/
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
even now it is
open software being developed in a closed manner. I see a
lot of this going on - the idea of commit early commit often and of
having the bleeding edge stuff in trunk (even if half of it is not
working) is foreign to a lot of people. They want to release only when it
is 'perfect' or 'complete'. Forgetting that no software is ever perfect
or complete.
The advantage of the open manner of development is that one gets feedback
on every change made - rather than feedback when it is too late to make
changes. --
+1
Hope the developers do seriously reconsider.
It just doesnt make sense to be gpld without the FLOSS dev process.
7:36 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Wed, 2009-05-27 at 12:30 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
one problem is that the developers are probably all
sitting in the same room.
The have to get out of the habit of talking to each other and into the habit
of communicating through the mailing list and sharing their code through the
repository. It is very important to discuss *every* issue on the mailing list
I
have the list of members on the mailing list and your email is not
amongst them.
So it would be a good idea to first join the mailing list and then judge
on the asumtions.
I had posted a mail both on the old googlegroups mailing list and this
mailing list about the 2 new mailing lists and discussions have since
then moved to that server.
regarding the code,
Every change is committed and the details of the commit are posted to
the mailing list (that is if one sees the mailing list ).
Regarding the svn server, it has been pritty unstable these days and we
are looking for another good server.
Never the less it is working good now. So people who want check the
source code.
happy hacking.
Krishnakant.
7:54 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Wednesday 27 May 2009, Krishnakant wrote:
On Wed, 2009-05-27 at 12:30 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves
wrote:
Subscribed to the users list. Dev list is still not setup.
one problem is that the developers are probably
all sitting in the same
room. The have to get out of the habit of talking to each other and into
the habit of communicating through the mailing list and sharing their
code through the repository. It is very important to discuss *every*
issue on the mailing list
I have the list of members on the mailing list and your email is not
amongst them.
So it would be a good idea to first join the mailing list and then judge
on the asumtions.
I had posted a mail both on the old googlegroups mailing list and this
mailing list about the 2 new mailing lists and discussions have since
then moved to that server. regarding the code,
Every change is committed and the details of the commit are posted to
the mailing list (that is if one sees the mailing list ).
Regarding the svn server, it has been pritty unstable these days and we
are looking for another good server.
Never the less it is working good now. So people who want check the
source code.
happy hacking.
Krishnakant.
--
Rgds
JTD
8:56 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Wednesday 27 May 2009, jtd wrote:
On Wednesday 27 May 2009, Krishnakant wrote:
Sorry. dev list is up. Subscribed.
On Wed, 2009-05-27 at 12:30 +0530, Kenneth
Gonsalves wrote:
Subscribed to the users list.
Dev list is still not setup. one problem is that the developers are probably
all sitting in the same
room. The have to get out of the habit of talking to each other and
into the habit of communicating through the mailing list and sharing
their code through the repository. It is very important to discuss
*every* issue on the mailing list
I have the list of members on the mailing list and your email is not
amongst them.
So it would be a good idea to first join the mailing list and then judge
on the asumtions.
I had posted a mail both on the old googlegroups mailing list and this
mailing list about the 2 new mailing lists and discussions have since
then moved to that server. --
Rgds
JTD
--
Rgds
JTD
10:20 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
jtd,
You need not be sorry.
It is my mistake that I did not announce this on the users mailing list.
happy hacking.
Krishnakant.
On Wed, 2009-05-27 at 14:26 +0530, jtd wrote:
On Wednesday 27 May 2009, jtd wrote:
On Wednesday 27 May 2009, Krishnakant wrote:
Sorry. dev list is up. Subscribed.
On Wed, 2009-05-27 at 12:30 +0530, Kenneth
Gonsalves wrote:
Subscribed to the users list.
Dev list is still not setup. one problem is that the developers are probably
all sitting in the same
room. The have to get out of the habit of talking to each other and
into the habit of communicating through the mailing list and sharing
their code through the repository. It is very important to discuss
*every* issue on the mailing list
I have the list of members on the mailing list and your email is not
amongst them.
So it would be a good idea to first join the mailing list and then judge
on the asumtions.
I had posted a mail both on the old googlegroups mailing list and this
mailing list about the 2 new mailing lists and discussions have since
then moved to that server. --
Rgds
JTD
--
Rgds
JTD 
28 May
28 May
2:43 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Wednesday 27 May 2009, Krishnakant wrote:
On Wed, 2009-05-27 at 12:30 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves
wrote:
Totally agree with this.
--
Arun Khan
one problem is that the developers are probably
all sitting in the
same room. The have to get out of the habit of talking to each
other and into the habit of communicating through the mailing list
and sharing their code through the repository. It is very important
to discuss *every* issue on the mailing list
I have the list of members on the mailing list and your email is not
amongst them.
So it would be a good idea to first join the mailing list and then
judge on the asumtions.
6:15 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Thursday 28 May 2009 08:13:55 Arun Khan wrote:
totally disagree with this. My point is that this software has been under
development for a year or so - and has been developed using the proprietary
model. I looked at the mailing list archives and do not see one year's
discussion there. The strength of free software is not that the code is
released, rather it is the fact that the *full* development takes place
transparently in public and the public can share in it from the word go.
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
On Wed,
2009-05-27 at 12:30 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
Totally agree with this. one problem is that the developers are probably
all sitting in the
same room. The have to get out of the habit of talking to each
other and into the habit of communicating through the mailing list
and sharing their code through the repository. It is very important
to discuss *every* issue on the mailing list
I have the list of members on the mailing list and your email is not
amongst them.
So it would be a good idea to first join the mailing list and then
judge on the asumtions.
31 May
31 May
12:52 p.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Thursday 28 May 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Thursday 28 May 2009 08:13:55 Arun Khan wrote:
totally disagree with this. My point is that this software has been
under development for a year or so - and has been developed using the
proprietary model. I looked at the mailing list archives and do not
see one year's discussion there. The strength of free software is not
that the code is released, rather it is the fact that the *full*
development takes place transparently in public and the public can
share in it from the word go. --
Right and IIRC, the point had been made earlier in the discussion. The
project's developer mailing list is the forum; what is there or not
there is water under the bridge.
Moving on, one can either keep viewing the "half glass of water" as half
empty or as half full and an opportunity to fill it with one's
experience and mentoring.
--
Arun Khan
On Wed,
2009-05-27 at 12:30 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
Totally agree with this. one problem is that the developers are probably
all sitting in
the same room. The have to get out of the habit of talking to
each other and into the habit of communicating through the
mailing list and sharing their code through the repository. It
is very important to discuss *every* issue on the mailing list
I have the list of members on the mailing list and your email is
not amongst them.
So it would be a good idea to first join the mailing list and
then judge on the asumtions.
1 Jun
1 Jun
7:57 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Sunday 31 May 2009 18:22:08 Arun Khan wrote:
I wonder why Indians tend to get defensive when faced with constructive
criticism? You would think I am an enemy of the project.
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
totally
disagree with this. My point is that this software has been
under development for a year or so - and has been developed using the
proprietary model. I looked at the mailing list archives and do not
see one year's discussion there. The strength of free software is not
that the code is released, rather it is the fact that the *full*
development takes place transparently in public and the public can
share in it from the word go. --
Right and IIRC, the point had been made earlier in the discussion. The
project's developer mailing list is the forum; what is there or not
there is water under the bridge.
Moving on, one can either keep viewing the "half glass of water" as half
empty or as half full and an opportunity to fill it with one's
experience and mentoring.
2 Jun
2 Jun
3:43 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Monday 01 Jun 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Sunday 31 May 2009 18:22:08 Arun Khan wrote:
I wonder why Indians tend to get defensive when faced with
constructive criticism? You would think I am an enemy of the project.
What is so defensive about asking you to join the developer's mailing
list?
I would not classify your comments "as an enemy" of the project but your
criticism do come across as inordinate.
Nobody is perfect. IYO, there may have been short comings but that is
water under the bridge.
Please get involved in the project if you are serious about helping this
project.
--
Arun Khan
totally
disagree with this. My point is that this software has
been under development for a year or so - and has been developed
using the proprietary model. I looked at the mailing list
archives and do not see one year's discussion there. The strength
of free software is not that the code is released, rather it is
the fact that the *full* development takes place transparently in
public and the public can share in it from the word go. --
Right and IIRC, the point had been made earlier in the discussion.
The project's developer mailing list is the forum; what is there
or not there is water under the bridge.
Moving on, one can either keep viewing the "half glass of water" as
half empty or as half full and an opportunity to fill it with one's
experience and mentoring.
1:09 p.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
hello just a few points and I won't like to repeat this again and again
for waisting bandwidth of the members of this list.
1, such discussions should move to the gnukhata mailing lists.
2, Please look at the source code and look at the copyright notices.
Also look at the official web site and Please make a judgement whether
the software is free or not.
I mean does it hert to make a software GPL v3?
3, We did not have a mail server for a long time and now we have it. So
just for keeping with the rules of free software and *not* proprietory,
we had to start a mailing list any ways and we used googlegroups and
most of the interesting stuff is lying there. We have off late good
constructive feedback from testers (Thanks Mehul and others).
and last point, I believe those of you who are really serious about the
project's success, Please help us out with the things needed such as
helping to build packages in deb and rpm and provide some accounting
domain for more severe testing.
Again the source code is GPL V3 so feel free to download and check it.
happy hacking.
Krishnakant.
On Mon, 2009-06-01 at 13:27 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Sunday 31 May 2009 18:22:08 Arun Khan wrote:
I wonder why Indians tend to get defensive when faced with constructive
criticism? You would think I am an enemy of the project.
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
totally
disagree with this. My point is that this software has been
under development for a year or so - and has been developed using the
proprietary model. I looked at the mailing list archives and do not
see one year's discussion there. The strength of free software is not
that the code is released, rather it is the fact that the *full*
development takes place transparently in public and the public can
share in it from the word go. --
Right and IIRC, the point had been made earlier in the discussion. The
project's developer mailing list is the forum; what is there or not
there is water under the bridge.
Moving on, one can either keep viewing the "half glass of water" as half
empty or as half full and an opportunity to fill it with one's
experience and mentoring.
3 Jun
3 Jun
7:41 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Tuesday 02 June 2009, Krishnakant wrote:
hello just a few points and I won't like to repeat
this again and again
for waisting bandwidth of the members of this list.
1, such discussions should move to the gnukhata mailing lists.
Your mail to 'Gnukhata-devel' with the subject
Nightly builds
Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
The reason it is being held:
Post by non-member to a members-only list
I subscribed and received a confirm subscription mail,
On Wednesday 27 May 2009, gnukhata-devel-request(a)cis-india.org wrote:
Mailing list subscription confirmation notice for
mailing list
Gnukhata-devel
We have received a request from 121.245.161.9 for subscription of your
email address, "jtd(a)mtnl.net.in"t.in", to the gnukhata-devel(a)cis-india.org
mailing list. To confirm that you want to be added to this mailing
list, simply reply to this message, keeping the Subject: header
intact. Or visit this web page:
To which i duly replied.
Re: confirm c8f44272ae7dd0f9e09fd98b68fef8db74c6febc
From: jtd <jtd(a)sparc.net>
To: gnukhata-devel-request(a)cis-india.org
However i did not receive a welcome or refused mail.
Something is borked.
--
Rgds
JTD
27 May
27 May
7:48 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Wed, 2009-05-27 at 09:22 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
even now it is open software being developed in a
closed manner. I see a lot
of this going on - the idea of commit early commit often and of having the
bleeding edge stuff in trunk (even if half of it is not working) is foreign to
a lot of people. They want to release only when it is 'perfect' or
'complete'.
Forgetting that no software is ever perfect or complete.
I think judgements of these types can be only made after realling
testing the source code as per the directions given by the developres
for downloading and installation.
if the above asumtion was right, then one would not see more than a
couple of commits (that too small ones ) every few hours on the svn
repo.
Also if the source code was supposed to be close, we would never let
people test the code. And not to forget that the code commits are
followed up with posting on the mailing list and many-a-times followed
with a list of errors.
It is just the matter of really following the mailing list which is one
important part of "foss " development.
The advantage of the open manner of development is
that one gets feedback on
every change made - rather than feedback when it is too late to make changes.
WE do
get feedback and I would like to again remind "follow the mailing
list".
happy hacking.
Krishnakant.
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
7:57 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Wed, 2009-05-27 at 08:15 +0530, jtd wrote:
Havent started as yet. In the middle of shifting
office premises. Hope to
start testing both by the weekend.
BTW I had tried to check out GNU-khata a few months back, but could not find
the code or licence afair. Afair i thought it was a "closed" software being
developed "secretly".
go to http://gnukhata.gnulinux.in and your misunderstandings will be
cleared.
Secondly checkout the source code and look at the top of every file.
happy hacking.
Krishnakant.
2:48 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 6:10 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon(a)au-kbc.org> wrote:
and how is your installation of AVsap going?
I have checked out the source and installed avsap but haven't
installed psycopg1. Any plans of moving it to psycopg2 anytime soon?
--
When I was little, I went into a pet shop and they asked how big I'd
get. -- Rodney Dangerfield -
http://kingsly.net/tmp/fortune.php/1243357888
3:52 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Wednesday 27 May 2009 08:18:01 Mehul Ved wrote:
no - it would take less than a minute to install psycopg1.
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 6:10 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves
<lawgon(a)au-kbc.org>
wrote:
and how is
your installation of AVsap going?
I have checked out the source and installed avsap but haven't
installed psycopg1. Any plans of moving it to psycopg2 anytime soon?
7:41 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
let alone psycopg1, even psycopg2 is having problems and we have already
burnt our fingers with it.
pygresql is a very good module for postgresql.
happy hacking.
Krishnakant.
On Wed, 2009-05-27 at 09:22 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Wednesday 27 May 2009 08:18:01 Mehul Ved wrote:
no - it would take less than a minute to install psycopg1.
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 6:10 AM, Kenneth
Gonsalves <lawgon(a)au-kbc.org>
wrote:
and how
is your installation of AVsap going?
I have checked out the source and installed avsap but haven't
installed psycopg1. Any plans of moving it to psycopg2 anytime soon?
11:09 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Wednesday 27 May 2009 13:11:17 Krishnakant wrote:
let alone psycopg1, even psycopg2 is having problems
and we have already
burnt our fingers with it.
pygresql is a very good module for postgresql.
pyscopg1.x is ok and stable - that is why I never shifted to psycopg2
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
4:46 p.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
jtd wrote:
Why should FOSS always get associated with something that is not easy to
setup whereas doze automatically is assumed to be one touch? Why not
have one touch installation in FOSS?
--
Regards,
Rony.
GNU/Linux !
No Viruses
No Spyware
Only Freedom.
On Sunday 24 May 2009, Rony wrote:
True. If an AV is compared to a security guard and the pc is the home,
the older guards stood outside the house guarding it. Now the new ones
want to enter every room, even the bedroom and God only know where else. ;-)
jtd wrote:
Closed software is an absolute nightmare to maintain.. Even installation of
something like AV is a major hassle (as witnessed by me, as a spectator).
Reinstall - clash with another AV - uninstall both - reinstall, no go - call
up vendor - appear mumbling idiot - uninstall - reinstall - ....... 2 days to
install AV. AND in the end problems with ERP.
BTW the first AV was a licenced version which failed to prevent some worm or
the other. And (funnily) an older employee remembered that the 2nd one (now
reincarnated) was dumped because of the same reason.
On Sunday 24 May 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
Its not about FLOSS or closed software but the ease at which the
software can be installed and maintained by the user company.
On Saturday 23 May 2009 23:37:58 Rony wrote:
>>> Given a choice between different software, companies will choose
>>> software that is easier to deploy and maintain
>>>
>> some companies
>>
> many companies.
>
badly run companies.
I would not term them "badly" run - more like not IT savvy.
Their core
competencies are elsewhere and very many are excellent in their arenas.
But not knowing facts about FLOSS makes them very vulnerable. Many try
very hard to plug in the gaping holes with all sorts of hardware and
software.
A
developer cannot force a complex installation on the target company
simply because a simpler method was not developed. The one who develops
a simpler method will get more preference.
True. But "simpler" is a very relative term even within an os's reference
frame. What matters more than anything else is stability.
Even if you had a one click install on doze, the OS limitations would trump
any easy installation procedure.
5:43 p.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Wednesday 27 May 2009, Rony wrote:
jtd wrote:
Why should FOSS always get associated with something that is not easy to
setup whereas doze automatically is assumed to be one touch? Why not
have one touch installation in FOSS?
there are innumerable one touch installs. But there are many which require
complex decisions, and making assumptions about a users wants results in
mayhem. Eg. the "stupid" changing of eth number if the nic is changed. Which
results in the nic not getting an ip and writing or removing dev rules.
--
Rgds
JTD
On Sunday 24 May 2009, Rony wrote:
True. If an AV is compared to a security guard and the pc is the home,
the older guards stood outside the house guarding it. Now the new ones
want to enter every room, even the bedroom and God only know where else.
;-)
jtd wrote:
Closed software is an absolute nightmare to maintain.. Even installation
of something like AV is a major hassle (as witnessed by me, as a
spectator). Reinstall - clash with another AV - uninstall both -
reinstall, no go - call up vendor - appear mumbling idiot - uninstall -
reinstall - ....... 2 days to install AV. AND in the end problems with
ERP.
BTW the first AV was a licenced version which failed to prevent some worm
or the other. And (funnily) an older employee remembered that the 2nd one
(now reincarnated) was dumped because of the same reason. On Sunday 24 May 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
> On Saturday 23 May 2009 23:37:58 Rony wrote:
>>>> Given a choice between different software, companies will choose
>>>> software that is easier to deploy and maintain
>>>
>>> some companies
>>
>> many companies.
>
> badly run companies.
I would not term them "badly" run - more like not IT savvy. Their core
competencies are elsewhere and very many are excellent in their arenas.
But not knowing facts about FLOSS makes them very vulnerable. Many try
very hard to plug in the gaping holes with all sorts of hardware and
software.
Its not about FLOSS or closed software but the ease at which the
software can be installed and maintained by the user company. A
developer cannot force a complex installation on the target company
simply because a simpler method was not developed. The one who develops
a simpler method will get more preference.
True. But "simpler" is a very relative term even within an os's reference
frame. What matters more than anything else is stability.
Even if you had a one click install on doze, the OS limitations would
trump any easy installation procedure.
28 May
28 May
1:14 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Wednesday 27 May 2009 22:16:17 Rony wrote:
just a question of priorities. We are more interested in getting the software
to work - and work properly than in one-touch installs. However there are
tools like urpmi and apt-get and yum and emerge which are all one-touch
install tools. You will find however that it is very rare for the authors of
the software to maintain these - packaging is usually done by 3rd parties. You
could try out these tools - many of them have graphical interfaces which makes
the installs for the vast majority of FOSS software one-click installs. It is
very rare that one has to go through the './configure - make - make install
route'.
I hear rumours that the latest versions of urpmi and apt-get and yum even list
out and install dependencies. I know it is difficult to believe, but I have been
informed of this fact by usually reliable people. Perhaps you could
investigate and confirm or deny these rumours?
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
Even if you
had a one click install on doze, the OS limitations would
trump any easy installation procedure.
Why should FOSS always get associated with something that is not easy to
setup whereas doze automatically is assumed to be one touch? Why not
have one touch installation in FOSS?
5:35 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Thursday 28 May 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Wednesday 27 May 2009 22:16:17 Rony wrote:
just a question of priorities. We are more interested in getting the
software to work - and work properly than in one-touch installs. However
there are tools like urpmi and apt-get and yum and emerge which are all
one-touch install tools. You will find however that it is very rare for the
authors of the software to maintain these - packaging is usually done by
3rd parties. You could try out these tools - many of them have graphical
interfaces which makes the installs for the vast majority of FOSS software
one-click installs. It is very rare that one has to go through the
'./configure - make - make install route'.
I hear rumours that the latest versions of urpmi and apt-get and yum even
list out and install dependencies. I know it is difficult to believe, but I
have been informed of this fact by usually reliable people. Perhaps you
could investigate and confirm or deny these rumours?
Apt always listed and installed dependencies. Of course one can always force
an install if one is ready for a herculean fight.
Also as you point out packaging is the distro maintainers responsibility.
In the case of khata given it's target audience, a simple install would be
ideal. Since the app is beta at this stage, hence unlikely to be included in
any distro, and the people who could contribute (accountants) anything but
tech savvy, the dev team will have to take the onus and release official
betas. Something like automated nightly builds would be in order.
Which brings up the issue of available infrastructure.
What is the available infrastructure?
--
Rgds
JTD
Even if
you had a one click install on doze, the OS limitations would
trump any easy installation procedure.
Why should FOSS always get associated with something that is not easy to
setup whereas doze automatically is assumed to be one touch? Why not
have one touch installation in FOSS?
3:01 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 10:16 PM, Rony <gnulinuxist(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Why should FOSS always get associated with something
that is not easy to
setup whereas doze automatically is assumed to be one touch? Why not
have one touch installation in FOSS?
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/software-installation-in-linux-is-diffi…
--
Push where it gives and scratch where it itches. -
http://kingsly.net/tmp/fortune.php/1243419108
7:03 a.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
On Thu, May 28, 2009 8:31 am, Mehul Ved wrote:
On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 10:16 PM, Rony
<gnulinuxist(a)gmail.com> wrote:
+1
:D
Was just going to reply to this thread with verbal diarrhea and abuse -
recalling the days of downloading .exe files, running 5 virus scans on
them, praying to Bill Gates before installing, etc.. but the link puts it
quite well :-)
And really, ./configure make make install even, imo, is not nearly half as
bad as the ugly feeling in the pit of your stomach when you double-click
something and have no idea what code you're running on your machine.
Anyways - my two bits,
Sanjay
Why should FOSS always get associated with
something that is not easy to
setup whereas doze automatically is assumed to be one touch? Why not
have one touch installation in FOSS?
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/software-installation-in-linux-is-diffi…
--
Push where it gives and scratch where it itches. -
http://kingsly.net/tmp/fortune.php/1243419108
--
http://mm.glug-bom.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
12:12 p.m.
New subject: feedback on gnu-khata (Rony)
Mehul Ved wrote:
On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 10:16 PM, Rony
<gnulinuxist(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Ask the author to install Firefox 3 in Kubuntu 7.X or 8.x series or in
Etch KDE. Or let him install OpenOffice 3 in Ubuntu 8.04. Let him try to
install software and higher versions that are not included in the apt repo.
By one touch install I don't mean that no choices will be given along
the way or no questions will be asked. By one touch I mean not having to
tinker around with various libraries or support software before
installing the main one. Upgrading from OpenOffice 2.x to 3.x is easy in
Windows XP (2002 version) which is much older than Ubuntu 8.04 but try
doing the same in Ubuntu 8.04. If anyone can accept the challenge,
please post the procedure for me as it will save me from having to
remove all the existing 8.04s on 7 machines and 5 laptops at an office
and installing Ubuntu 9.04 which comes with OOo3.x.
--
Regards,
Rony.
GNU/Linux !
No Viruses
No Spyware
Only Freedom.
Why should FOSS always get associated with
something that is not easy to
setup whereas doze automatically is assumed to be one touch? Why not
have one touch installation in FOSS?
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/software-installation-in-linux-is-diffi…
4775
days inactive
4788
days old
52 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
Arun Khan -
jtd -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
Krishnakant -
Mehul Ved -
Pravin Dhayfule -
Rony -
Sanjay B -
scrapo -
Surya Pratap