Hello All,
An OO user in Windows is facing some problems with Spreadsheet. He uses the .xls format.
Problem 1: His file consists of many rows and columns. Cells in each row are related to each other. Now in Excel he can sort columns individually and during each sorting, entire rows get sorted. So after every sort, the cells in each row are the same. It is the entire row that gets sorted. In OO he can sort columns but it sorts cells in that column only and this breaks the row and ultimately the table cells get cross connected.
Problem 2: In Excel, he can secure a file but allow partial changes like changing the cell background colour. This is needed as his job status indicator is colour coded as the job progresses. His employees can only change colours as they progress with the job. In OO he can secure a file but it is like ON/OFF. Once secure, no partial changes are allowed.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
On 9/7/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Hello All,
An OO user in Windows is facing some problems with Spreadsheet. He uses the .xls format.
Problem 1: His file consists of many rows and columns. Cells in each row are related to each other. Now in Excel he can sort columns individually and during each sorting, entire rows get sorted. So after every sort, the cells in each row are the same. It is the entire row that gets sorted. In OO he can sort columns but it sorts cells in that column only and this breaks the row and ultimately the table cells get cross connected.
I seldom use spreadsheets but this looks like a bug to me. I am using OO2.0
Problem 2: In Excel, he can secure a file but allow partial changes like changing the cell background colour. This is needed as his job status indicator is colour coded as the job progresses. His employees can only change colours as they progress with the job. In OO he can secure a file but it is like ON/OFF. Once secure, no partial changes are allowed.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Does this help?
From OO2.0 help:
Protecting Sections in OpenOffice.org Writer Any section of a OpenOffice.org Writer text document can be protected against changes with a password.
This protection is not intended to be a secure protection. It is just a switch to protect the section against accidential changes.
Turning on protection Select the text. Choose Insert - Section - Section, then under Write protection mark the Protect and With password check boxes. (If the section already exists: Format - Sections.) Enter and confirm a password of at least 5 characters. Turning off protection Choose Format - Sections - Section and under Write protection clear the Protect check box. Enter the correct password.
Protecting Cells in a OpenOffice.org Writer Table You can protect the contents of individual cells of a OpenOffice.org Writer text table from changes.
This protection is not intended to be a secure protection. It is just a switch to protect the cells against accidential changes.
Turning on protection Place the cursor in a cell or select cells. Right-click to open the context menu, then choose Cell - Protect. Turning off protection Place the cursor in the cell or select the cells. First, if necessary, choose Tools - Options - OpenOffice.org Writer - Formatting Aids and mark Cursor in protected areas - Enable. Then right-click the cell to open the context menu, choose Cell - Unprotect. Select the table in the Navigator, open the context menu and select Table - Unprotect. Use Shift+Ctrl+T to remove protection for the entire current table or all selected tables.
On Saturday 08 September 2007 21:23, Rony wrote:
Mohan Nayaka wrote:
I seldom use spreadsheets but this looks like a bug to me. I am using OO2.0
I switched over to OO from my M$ days since 5 years but for complex documents, OO may not be ready.
How about a 60 page company annual report with multiple graphs, numerous tables, pages in assorted formats etc, all of which was done in pagemaker 6 (afair) - with innumerable crashes. Btw MSorifice was simply unusable period. Although OO is not a layout tool, it handles such docs with ease and NEVER CRASHED.
Your statement about OO is rubbish. If u are talking about cross compatability never mind OO to MSoffice, MSoffice itself has problems loading it's own spread sheets, pics and tables into a doc. Infact The whole excercise using M$ was extremely frustrating, requiring innmerable iterations between layout artist, hardcopy review (CS, CA etc particularly for figures) and printer. This was in 2002 and MSoffice and old doc files (and pcb layout) was the only reason to have doze. I finally dumped all work sat for a week and converted all .doc to sxw and havent booted into doze for any work (other than testing ) for 4 yrs.
jtd wrote:
Your statement about OO is rubbish. If u are talking about cross compatability never mind OO to MSoffice, MSoffice itself has problems loading it's own spread sheets, pics and tables into a doc.
Carry out a simple exercise. Create a simple table of 5 rows and 4 columns in OO Spreadsheet in ODS format. Add random data to the cells. Colour one cell with some colour. sort the table such that the cell data moves to a new location. Check if the colour of the cell moves too. It does in M$ Office.
On 9/11/07, Rony wrote:
Carry out a simple exercise. Create a simple table of 5 rows and 4 columns in OO Spreadsheet in ODS format. Add random data to the cells. Colour one cell with some colour. sort the table such that the cell data moves to a new location. Check if the colour of the cell moves too. It does in M$ Office.
Its working on OpenOffice.org 2.0.4 Added random data to some cells in an ods file. Selected a cell>>Format>>Cells...>>Background>>Selected a color>>OK Selected the entire table>>Data>>Sort>>Sort by>>Selected a field>>OK The data gets sorted and the color of the cell moves along with the data.
osric fernandes wrote:
On 9/11/07, Rony wrote:
Carry out a simple exercise. Create a simple table of 5 rows and 4 columns in OO Spreadsheet in ODS format. Add random data to the cells. Colour one cell with some colour. sort the table such that the cell data moves to a new location. Check if the colour of the cell moves too. It does in M$ Office.
Its working on OpenOffice.org 2.0.4 Added random data to some cells in an ods file. Selected a cell>>Format>>Cells...>>Background>>Selected a color>>OK Selected the entire table>>Data>>Sort>>Sort by>>Selected a field>>OK The data gets sorted and the color of the cell moves along with the data.
I use OO 2.0.4 in Kubuntu 6.10 and it does not work. The user who pointed out the problem uses OO 2.2 in windows.
On 9/11/07, Rony wrote:
osric fernandes wrote:
On 9/11/07, Rony wrote:
Carry out a simple exercise. Create a simple table of 5 rows and 4 columns in OO Spreadsheet in ODS format. Add random data to the cells. Colour one cell with some colour. sort the table such that the cell data moves to a new location. Check if the colour of the cell moves too. It does in M$ Office.
Its working on OpenOffice.org 2.0.4 Added random data to some cells in an ods file. Selected a cell>>Format>>Cells...>>Background>>Selected a color>>OK Selected the entire table>>Data>>Sort>>Sort by>>Selected a field>>OK The data gets sorted and the color of the cell moves along with the data.
I use OO 2.0.4 in Kubuntu 6.10 and it does not work. The user who pointed out the problem uses OO 2.2 in windows.
Works fine on OOo 2.2.1 on Windows XP
Rony wrote:
Carry out a simple exercise. Create a simple table of 5 rows and 4 columns in OO Spreadsheet in ODS format. Add random data to the cells. Colour one cell with some colour. sort the table such that the cell data moves to a new location. Check if the colour of the cell moves too. It does in M$ Office.
I did. I am using OpenOffice 2.2.1. And the colour of cell moves along with the cell after sort.
Secondly, the problem regarding "column sorting does not move other cells in the row..." is applicable only if you deliberately select full column (by clicking on "A" or "B" .... etc.), and this behaviour is seen even in Microsoft Excel. In Excel when I select a column by clicking "A" for example, and then select sort, then Excel gives a dialogue box saying that there is data in other columns too, should they be included in sort? If you say no then Excel will also sort *only* the selected column, cells in the other columns remaining in tact (tried this with Office XP). If you say yes, then Excel will select *all* the columns for sorting and sort on the column that you requested so that respective cells of row move together after sort. This same feature is there on Open Office too (Read my next para). So what you were complaining about Open Office calc is not a bug but a feature... because there would be scenario where one would *want* to sort only a given column.
And regarding "Sorting on column and respective cell rows moving...." is also the also available with OpenOffice. To achieve that all you need to do is place your cursor anywhere on the sheet where there is data and select sort, you will see that Calc automatically selects all the columns and asks you which column to sort on. After sorting is finished you will find sorted columns with respective rows moved. The *very same* behaviour I found with Excel too. When I select sort in Excel by placing the cursor on any cell containing data, then Excel also automatically selects all the columns containing data (exactly what Calc also does). Hence after sort you get respective rows moved with sorted column with both Calc and Excel.
So what is the problem?
Rajen.
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:12:58 +0530, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in said:
On Saturday 08 September 2007 21:23, Rony wrote:
Mohan Nayaka wrote:
I seldom use spreadsheets but this looks like a bug to me. I am using OO2.0
I switched over to OO from my M$ days since 5 years but for complex documents, OO may not be ready.
How about a 60 page company annual report with multiple graphs, numerous tables, pages in assorted formats etc, all of which was done in pagemaker 6 (afair) - with innumerable crashes. Btw MSorifice was simply unusable period. Although OO is not a layout tool, it handles such docs with ease and NEVER CRASHED.
For what it is worth, in 20 years of usage, with two masters theses and a Ph.D. thesis, I've never had TeX crash on me -- not even once. And it understands kerning too.
manoj
On Tuesday 11 September 2007 09:14, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
For what it is worth, in 20 years of usage, with twomasters theses and a Ph.D. thesis, I've never had TeX crash on me -- not even once. And it understands kerning too.
And it's the right tool for laying out a document and producing output in multiple formats. Unfortunately my half hearted attemtps to use tex and Latex have been just that. Also afaik there is the problem of importing spreadsheets and documents from OO into tex. I did attend a workshop by Dr.Nag many yrs ago and the o/p generated by tex in particular maths formula is years ahead of other layout tools.
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 10:19:12 +0530, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in said:
On Tuesday 11 September 2007 09:14, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
For what it is worth, in 20 years of usage, with two masters theses and a Ph.D. thesis, I've never had TeX crash on me -- not even once. And it understands kerning too.
And it's the right tool for laying out a document and producing output in multiple formats.
I think you mean docbook here. TeX is designed for printing, though people have tried to hack dvi-to-html conversion with varying success. I tend to ship PDF, usually.
Unfortunately my half hearted attemtps to use tex and Latex have been just that.
Like a lot of capable tools, it does have a learning curve.
Also afaik there is the problem of importing spreadsheets and documents from OO into tex. I did attend a workshop by Dr.Nag many yrs ago and the o/p generated by tex in particular maths formula is years ahead of other layout tools.
TeX is not a layout tool, or a word processor. It is a Typesetting tool.
And yes, trying to import a word processor document into TeX would be ... difficult, and, in my opinion, pointless. The preferred method, I someone put a gun to my head, would be to export to plain text, and than add TeX or LaTeX markup.
I use TeX for print, and Docbook for online presentation; and usually the destination for the document is well enough established for me to chose one or the other a priori.
manoj
hello, I think as roni rightly suggested let those people send the files for whom it worked. and by the way please stay away from extrem statements which are mis guiding such as "gnu/linux is not suited for the desktop and it sucks ". I know quiet a few professional organisations using only gnu/linux on their desktops except for accounting work where they have to sue windows and tally. as JTD, Manoj and few others rightly point out, there are many cases which we know for that matter. and in my personal experience I do know a few organisations including BIUF and Aman trust etc. which run gnu/linux. and the work they do is mission critical. so friends I keep this repeating again and again, please don't make extrem statements on your personal knowledge. chances are that our knowledge is limited and falls short of correctness. so we can't draw conclusions on what we feel is the reality. regarsd, Krishnakant.
Quoting krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com:
I know quiet a few professional organisations using only gnu/linux on their desktops except for accounting work where they have to sue windows and tally.
^^^^^^^
That's an interesting proposition, really :)
Anurag
Rony wrote:
Problem 1: His file consists of many rows and columns. Cells in each row are related to each other. Now in Excel he can sort columns individually and during each sorting, entire rows get sorted. So after every sort, the cells in each row are the same. It is the entire row that gets sorted. In OO he can sort columns but it sorts cells in that column only and this breaks the row and ultimately the table cells get cross connected.
Another problem is that if a cell is given a colour, after sorting, the cell shifts but the colour is stationary in the older cell location irrespective of sort changes.
On 08-Sep-07, at 1:10 PM, Rony wrote:
Problem 1: His file consists of many rows and columns. Cells in each row are related to each other. Now in Excel he can sort columns individually and during each sorting, entire rows get sorted. So after every sort, the cells in each row are the same. It is the entire row that gets sorted. In OO he can sort columns but it sorts cells in that column only and this breaks the row and ultimately the table cells get cross connected.
Another problem is that if a cell is given a colour, after sorting, the cell shifts but the colour is stationary in the older cell location irrespective of sort changes.
have you ever tried koffice? much faster than open office - and in my opinion, much better
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
have you ever tried koffice? much faster than open office - and in my opinion, much better
I will give it a shot in my pc. However the user is using Windows. I am going through the KDE port for Windows.
Hi Rony,
On 9/8/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I will give it a shot in my pc. However the user is using Windows. I am going through the KDE port for Windows.
You have to wait for a bit then. KDE 4 ( applications ) will run on Windows. KOffice2.0 [1] might just work on windows but you have to build it on Windows which is not as easy as building it on a Linux box, imho. Afaik, only Kexi ( MS Access like application ) from KOffice 1.x worked on Windows or there was a feeble attempt to port it to windows. I am guessing that Sharan would know more about this since he has always shown interest in Kexi code, not sure if he has started committing to it and not to mention is good friend of Jaroslaw Stainke, the main Kexi dev.
[1]http://www.koffice.org/releases/2.0alpha2-release.php
Cheers.
Pradeepto
Pradeepto Bhattacharya wrote:
Hi Pradeepto,
On 9/8/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I will give it a shot in my pc. However the user is using Windows. I am going through the KDE port for Windows.
You have to wait for a bit then. KDE 4 ( applications ) willrun on Windows.
Sorry to disappoint you but I just tried Koffice but it is nowhere even upto OO. I had created a test table of 4 columns and 5 rows in ODS format in OO. Now when I opened the file in Koffice, its sort feature itself is disabled. I cannot even select the entire table by clicking on the top left corner.
Hi,
On 9/8/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Pradeepto Bhattacharya wrote:
Hi Pradeepto,
On 9/8/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I will give it a shot in my pc. However the user is using Windows. I am going through the KDE port for Windows.
You have to wait for a bit then. KDE 4 ( applications ) willrun on Windows.
Sorry to disappoint you but I just tried Koffice but it is nowhere even upto OO. I had created a test table of 4 columns and 5 rows in ODS format in OO. Now when I opened the file in Koffice, its sort feature itself is disabled. I cannot even select the entire table by clicking on the top left corner.
Disappoint me? Why? When did you try KDE4 applications in first place? Oh and which version of KOffice are you trying? 1.6? or 2.0 alpha? If so submit a bug report please.
Cheers!
Pradeepto
Pradeepto Bhattacharya wrote:
On 9/8/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Sorry to disappoint you but I just tried Koffice but it is nowhere even upto OO. I had created a test table of 4 columns and 5 rows in ODS format in OO. Now when I opened the file in Koffice, its sort feature itself is disabled. I cannot even select the entire table by clicking on the top left corner.
Disappoint me? Why? When did you try KDE4 applications infirst place? Oh and which version of KOffice are you trying? 1.6? or 2.0 alpha? If so submit a bug report please.
Its not KDE4. Its the one for Kubuntu 6.10. The KDE is 3.5.5 and KSpread 1.5.2. It should not have any bugs.
Hi,
On 9/9/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Its not KDE4. Its the one for Kubuntu 6.10. The KDE is 3.5.5 and KSpread 1.5.2.
Check the latest release, though I doubt 1.6 is available for Dapper. If you are brave enough, download the tarball and build it. Or try it on Fiesty or Gutsy. I am assuming one of those two will have 1.6.x. Actually 1.6.2 should be available for Fiesty and 1.6.3 is available for Gutsy. Try those if you can, check if you can reproduce the issue and if so submit a bug report ... oh wait ... it should not have bugs right?
It should not have any bugs.
This is the most hilarious statement ever! What is this? Utopia? Please do show me a software ( free or non-free ) without any bugs. I wonder why they ever create bugzilla or trac or any bug tracking software. And btw, unknown bugs *are* bugs.
Cheers!
Pradeepto
Pradeepto Bhattacharya wrote:
Hi,
On 9/9/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Its not KDE4. Its the one for Kubuntu 6.10. The KDE is 3.5.5 and KSpread 1.5.2.
Check the latest release, though I doubt 1.6 is available forDapper. If you are brave enough, download the tarball and build it. Or try it on Fiesty or Gutsy. I am assuming one of those two will have 1.6.x. Actually 1.6.2 should be available for Fiesty and 1.6.3 is available for Gutsy. Try those if you can, check if you can reproduce the issue and if so submit a bug report ... oh wait ... it should not have bugs right?
I don't have Gutsy or Fiesty loaded.
It should not have any bugs.
This is the most hilarious statement ever! What is this?Utopia? Please do show me a software ( free or non-free ) without any bugs. I wonder why they ever create bugzilla or trac or any bug tracking software. And btw, unknown bugs *are* bugs.
It is not hilarious when M$ Office multi-user license will be procured, in the new machines that will be supplied, due to the critical nature of the work. I don't expect buggy packages to be available on repos even after newer versions are out.
BTW, most M$ users who use non-licensed copies, are using software copies that are quite some years old, they have no access to updates, yet they hardly find any problems or bugs in their software and are happily using them.
Hi,
On 9/9/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I don't have Gutsy or Fiesty loaded.
That's not an issue you know. Well if you want updated packages you have to upgrade or build it yourself and hopefully they have been fixed. Again if not, file a bug report.
This is the most hilarious statement ever! What is this?Utopia? Please do show me a software ( free or non-free ) without any bugs. I wonder why they ever create bugzilla or trac or any bug tracking software. And btw, unknown bugs *are* bugs.
It is not hilarious when M$ Office multi-user license will be procured, in the new machines that will be supplied, due to the critical nature of the work. I don't expect buggy packages to be available on repos even after newer versions are out.
Please try to understand that bugs are *always* there in software. Question is : are they known issues or unknown issues? Now if you think you found an bug please file a bug report. Somebody will fix it, and some future release will have one less bug.
And just because a application/software doesnot crash for you or you don't see something quirky while using it doesnot mean that it doesnot have any bugs. Thats such a false belief. If that was true, all distros would have repo full of bug-free software which is completely untrue or what is the point of exsistence of Ubuntu launchpad/bug tracking application or OpenSuse bugzilla or Fedora's bugzilla and similarly such mechanism for various distros.
Developers write the software, they do testing but they can't possibly test all usage paths of random user(s). When a certain user bumps into such a path that crashes the application or something unhappy happens to the software, and if it can reproduced the user is expected to submit a bug report. Developer(s) can look into it then but he surely can't do anything if he doesn't know about the existence of the issue which is completely possible because of different environment, usage paths et al.
BTW, most M$ users who use non-licensed copies, are using software copies that are quite some years old, they have no access to updates, yet they hardly find any problems or bugs in their software and are happily using them.
I have nothing at all to say to above statement.
Cheers!
Pradeepto
hello, roni Pradipto and others, I have gone through the list of problems which roni has pointed out and also what Chetan said regarding his experience. firstly chetan, are you using gnu/linux or the buggy M$ OS? what I ment by buggy I will come to it later. but if you use the official .rpm packages from the openoffice.orrg site, most people report not just performance improvements but also smooth performance. for example I am making some software that needs a spreadsheet like interface for an organisation which is already using open office on gnu/linux. the name of the organisation is BIAF and it is pritty huge (just to say that huge organisations are very happy using gnu/linux and related softwares for their highly professional needs). the point is that they found some formulas were not coming up right in open office calc and worked very well in excel. now I wasn't aware of the difference between the actual openoffice officially downloaded from their web site and the one coming with ubuntu. but now when I gave them the official openoffice, their problems are gone. so I would request roni if possible to send a sample excel file if the client wont mind and we can check if things can be done. I will try it on gnu/linux so we can conclude that the windows version may have problems. I am saying this with the logic that my customer still faces the same formula problem on open office on windows. their accountent still uses windows for tally so he uses openoffice on windows and the problem persists. now the word "buggy ". I completely agree with Pradeepto that bug free system is a "hilarious " statement. haha that was such a nice joke for me. I am a professional consultent and also a researcher and I was so frustrated using windows that now I am very relaxed using ubuntu after my screen reader improved. I want to throw an open challenge. can some one claim on this list that any given software is "ABSOLUTELY BUG FREE " and "MY SOFTWARE OR OS NEVER HAD ERRORS AND WILL NEVER HAVE ERRORS" if some one can give this to me on a stamp paper, I am ready to loos any thing.
consider this case and I bet this has happened not just with me but many othres.I work on "powerless pointless " also popularly known as Powerpoint, I did my work on the presentation for the entire night. since I can't work with images as a blind person, I told my colligue to align those for me. I went confidently to the IIT Guwahati International conference with my toshiba laptop loaded with "many peoples favorite windows xp ". my name was called for the presentation and the lappy was attached to the over head projector. and what happens? nothing much just that my bugg free windows crashes for no reason and I have to postpone my presentation. what you call in mumbai lingo? "popat ho gaya ". such and many cases happen with windows and I feel that windows dispite of all things said and done still laks professionalism in many aspects and in consistency is another definition of windows. only thing is like good professional boys m$ improved a bit with xp. at least from consistency point of view it is a bit better but still "error report send or don't send comes up ". means even m$ knows that their systems have errors. so I believe that saying that windows and related apps have no buggs is not just "hilarious " but also over favoriteness for some thing. I know any gnu/linux distro will have bugs and a lot of them. but consider the time m$ or any propriatory software developer will take to fix the bug and how much time does free software community take? I remember early when fiesty was lonched in app, there was a miner bug in gnome. the gnome guys were informed and the bug was fixed in just 5 hrs! I wont blaim roni or any one who feels that gnu/linux laks professional touch. while that is an absolutely bull shit statement and made only out of lak of knowledge. but it is we the free software community to be blaimed equally for not providing enough support or education (at least in India it is true to a great extent ). however one needs to find the right people and more importantly when they are ready to prove, we should keep our bius away and sportingly except that our knowledge was indeed limited and what we knew was not sufficient to pass any comments. So please don't make such statements about bug free systems etc that is completely a false statement and carries nither scientific base nor common sense. and while I say that gnu/linux does have buggs I can at the same time show 10000 buggs in windows which happen very often.
regards, Krishnakant.
Pradeepto Bhattacharya wrote:
Hi,
On 9/9/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I don't have Gutsy or Fiesty loaded.
That's not an issue you know. Well if you want updatedpackages you have to upgrade or build it yourself and hopefully they have been fixed. Again if not, file a bug report.
Updated packages with bug fixes should be available through apt repos. However functionality is about wish lists not bugs. Anyway I agree with everything else you said. Maybe libre based packages are going too fast in the development cycle and nothing long term stable results from it.
Libre software works well for corporates who can afford their own programmers who can make improvements and customizations to the software due to its libre nature. The same is true for the do-it-yourself individuals who will write, compile and modify their own packages. But there is a retail segment where vendors as well as users depend fully on ready binaries and don't have the time to sit and experiment with various versions of software. They need software that works at that time not after bug fixes. I can't give software to a customer saying that "Right now it won't work for you because it has bugs or less functionality but wait for some weeks or months, and the problem will definitely get fixed". Till then what should the customer do?
On Tuesday 11 September 2007 00:41, Rony wrote:
Pradeepto Bhattacharya wrote:
Hi,
On 9/9/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I don't have Gutsy or Fiesty loaded.
That's not an issue you know. Well if you want updatedpackages you have to upgrade or build it yourself and hopefully they have been fixed. Again if not, file a bug report.
Updated packages with bug fixes should be available through apt repos. However functionality is about wish lists not bugs. Anyway I agree with everything else you said. Maybe libre based packages are going too fast in the development cycle and nothing long term stable results from it.
God you are missing he point completely. A stable rlease is a stable release that works the way it works. EOM. The next release has bigger-better-faster-yak things in it. That is the point of doing a new release u know. An it's a never ending story. Otherwise we would still be in the trees like ximians instead of gnomes at the keyboard
Libre software works well for corporates who can afford their own programmers who can make improvements and customizations to the software due to its libre nature.
What do you think are the new releases for?. And you dont pay for it just download and install. And if you find that too difficult stick to what is already installed.
The same is true for the do-it-yourself individuals who will write, compile and modify their own packages. But there is a retail segment where vendors as well as users depend fully on ready binaries and don't have the time to sit and experiment with various versions of software. They need software that works at that time not after bug fixes. I can't give software to a customer saying that "Right now it won't work for you because it has bugs or less functionality but wait for some weeks or months, and the problem will definitely get fixed". Till then what should the customer do?
The customer depends on YOU and pays YOU to provide that service. If you cant maintain a source tree (even that is maintained by the developers u just sync your tree with theirs and compile) or download a tarball and compile u are in the wrong business.
And if your idea of "working software" is doing things like M$orifice by jove you need a major re education in a gulag.
No siree if u thought that freesoftware is going to give your business a free ride you are wrong. Free software gives you a free ride if you take the trouble of educating your self. All it costs is time.
BTW we have gone thru all the complexities of running a business with foss a hundred times on this list in the past few years. And concluded that u need skill AND a business plan or tons of cash AND a business plan.
Why are you raising the same old non issues?.
jtd wrote:
God you are missing he point completely. A stable rlease is a stable release that works the way it works. EOM. The next release has bigger-better-faster-yak things in it. That is the point of doing a new release u know. An it's a never ending story. Otherwise we would still be in the trees like ximians instead of gnomes at the keyboard
I have been using OO since version 0.9. So its not a new creation. By now it should have features similar in functionality to M$ Office and more. Otherwise what is the purpose of migration. It works anyway.
Libre software works well for corporates who can afford their own programmers who can make improvements and customizations to the software due to its libre nature.
What do you think are the new releases for?. And you dont pay for it just download and install. And if you find that too difficult stick to what is already installed.
Reply same as above.
The same is true for the do-it-yourself individuals who will write, compile and modify their own packages. But there is a retail segment where vendors as well as users depend fully on ready binaries and don't have the time to sit and experiment with various versions of software. They need software that works at that time not after bug fixes. I can't give software to a customer saying that "Right now it won't work for you because it has bugs or less functionality but wait for some weeks or months, and the problem will definitely get fixed". Till then what should the customer do?
The customer depends on YOU and pays YOU to provide that service. If you cant maintain a source tree (even that is maintained by the developers u just sync your tree with theirs and compile) or download a tarball and compile u are in the wrong business.
The customer does not pay ME to write software. The onus of bugs and functionality of a software lies on its creator. The customer only pays ME to maintain his hardware, install software the normal way and tune it to his work environment. However there is a limit to it as I am not into software development. The first choice is to try out libre software after giving a brief introduction to freedom and the pitfalls of closed source, vendor lock-ins etc. If it suits the customer's requirement thats great. Otherwise customer is king.
And if your idea of "working software" is doing things like M$orifice by jove you need a major re education in a gulag.
No siree if u thought that freesoftware is going to give your business a free ride you are wrong. Free software gives you a free ride if you take the trouble of educating your self. All it costs is time.
Reply same as previous. BTW, the user has already burned his hands trying out alternatives to commercial software. At one time he even forced his employees to use the alternative CAD package that someone had developed for him for a good sum of money. He started loosing employees as they could not adjust to the new package. Ultimately he had to go for commercial CAD software multi-user licenses as that is what everyone learns at the multi-media institutes.
BTW we have gone thru all the complexities of running a business with foss a hundred times on this list in the past few years. And concluded that u need skill AND a business plan or tons of cash AND a business plan.
Why are you raising the same old non issues?.
Because a list member found my problem with libre software hilarious. I need solutions not expert comments. There are pros and cons on both sides.
On Tuesday 11 September 2007 13:38, Rony wrote:
I have been using OO since version 0.9. So its not a new creation. By now it should have features similar in functionality to M$ Office and more. Otherwise what is the purpose of migration. It works anyway.
dont do favours, dont migrate and save everbody your headaches. The last thing you want to imitate is M$Orifice. Just read the msooxml specs and you will know why.
The customer depends on YOU and pays YOU to provide that service. If you cant maintain a source tree (even that is maintained by the developers u just sync your tree with theirs and compile) or download a tarball and compile u are in the wrong business.
The customer does not pay ME to write software. The onus of bugs and functionality of a software lies on its creator. The customer only pays ME to maintain his hardware, install software the normal way and tune it to his work environment.
And i suppose the crappiest way to do it is the most normal - the M$ way. "Tune to his environmet" is where the money is, provided your skill at welding FOSS tools and HIS expectations match. If you made the offer that he can do things exactly the way he did and yet have all the benefits of FOSS you made the wrong pitch.
Otherwise customer is king.
True.
Reply same as previous.
Nobody is going to do your work for you. Dont like FOSS use something else. Comback later when A** is suitable on fire and with an even bigger load of closed data.
BTW, the user has already burned his hands trying out alternatives to commercial software. At one time he even forced his employees to use the alternative CAD package that someone had developed for him for a good sum of money.
So? what has this got to do with FOSS?
He started loosing employees as they could not adjust to the new package. Ultimately he had to go for commercial CAD software multi-user licenses as that is what everyone learns at the multi-media institutes.
Wrong focus. He should have trained his people, which btw is a very important area while switching from anything to anything else. But again what has this got to do with FOSS?
BTW we have gone thru all the complexities of running a business with foss a hundred times on this list in the past few years. And concluded that u need skill AND a business plan or tons of cash AND a business plan.
Why are you raising the same old non issues?.
Because a list member found my problem with libre software hilarious. I need solutions not expert comments.
which were provided in ample measure ithink. Besides you made an "Expert" comment "OO is not ready for complex docs" which is totally wrong.
There are pros and cons on both sides.
The cons of using closed apps is a mile long and the pros trivial in most cases.
I have gone through the entire thread and here are my observations. actually there is nothing for me to write because JTD has done it all to perfection. I am not saying who is right and who is wrong that is not the point any ways. but I had said this earlier and saying it again, "Please educate your self before passing any comment or generalising on any thing ". let's except that we have limited knowledge and as far as help or solutions are concerned, well, some one can tell you some "work around " if they find the same problem in the same way in the first place. but as I read through the thread, no one seams to face the problem. secondly, yes no one payed for development. I completely agree with roni. but roni, if I can install the software with a few specific methods that does not come in the scope of development or writing software. kindly read about "what is programming " on wikipedia and then come bac on the thread with that point. since you have been payed for installing softwaers that work exactly as per the client's needs, then you must do so. I rememebr windows also needs tweeks and I have done them many times. so if one thinks that all software gets installed "NORMALLY" on windows, I am ready to stake a contest on that comment. and I second the thoughts of JTD and would like to add one more thing. a free software has always been developed in the public interest and companies have build serious business around it. so more or less almost all softwares in the free software side do have solutions to suit the needs and don't require you to mold your work to suit the m$ or other closed softwares. and if little bit of learning on your part can give stable and professional quality software to the customer, I think it is a "win win " situation for both of you. infact if installing a software is the entire point then again I agree that m$ does not follow right practices. and as far as quality goes, as far as very small business goes, they might not find any difference. but for medium scale to highly professional work, free software is the only way (except accounts IMHO). I remembre those days when a screen reader for gnome desktop did not exist. I used windows then and another closed screen reader called jaws. I don't remember a single time when for more than 15 days my machine worked fine. I am a professional and my needs are not like "pan patti or babiya ". I value my time and want my systems to do work on time and accurately. I totally and sportingly except that gnu/linux has errors but windows errors are miles ahead and out of my experience all over india, I find it is highly risky to use closed softwares. I can't change my work practice just because because a software wants it. as a professional if I am giving softwares installed to my customers, I will take all efords to know if there are some additional commadns I need to give or download some thing to make it work exactly as my client wants. and by all means that is nothing to do with software writing. and yes one last thing. if my workers go away just because I tell them to use a software just having a different name and slightly different interface, firstlyu I am not good an management and secondly even if I am ready to train them and still can't control them, I don't deserve to run an organisation. that point is nothing to do with Free software. regards, Krishnakant.
point to be noticed is that the president of free software foundation europe had visited mumbai and I had the fortune to spend a couple of days with him. he was telling me how fast most of the european countries are moving towards free software in all aspects, specially education, government administration, and serious business. infact M$ officials had to come over to fsf and humbally request for making people use windows along with gnu/linux. another point worth noting is that except accounting and to a very great extent "extrem gaming ", there is nothing one can't do on the desktop on professional level. as I said consistency, efficiency and ease of use is the reason gnu/linux is to be used on the desktop, that is the professional way at least as what I find. and when errors come and I press ctrl alt delete and then probably restart my machine, the problem goes away. this is completely unprofessional and a potential time bomb. so even if my m$ old apps are going to run this way, at least professional people like me whos time is valuable won't like it. so I leave this question to the readers if they would use softwares which may do your work today and won't do it tomorrow with no reason or will they take some efords to learn a few new things (which is nothing to do with programming ), and get huge paybacks in the long run. regards, Krishnakant.
Hi,
On 9/11/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Why are you raising the same old non issues?.
Because a list member found my problem with libre software hilarious. I need solutions not expert comments. There are pros and cons on both sides.
Really? This is what you said and I quote - "It should not have any bugs.". That statement is a joke and I am still laughing and I am sure others are too. You have to understand that a software has bugs ( its not intentional ) as I have said before on this list. This is not Utopia. That applies to libre software or otherwise. It *has* bugs. Doesn't MS release patches and Service Packs periodically for its products? What are those for? Just for fun? So I didnot find your problem with libre software hilarious at all. Your point of view ( about software ) is just wrong which you are not trying to understand, it seems.
So please don't make up things and present it in a way that suits you fine.
Cheers!
Pradeepto
On 11-Sep-07, at 10:39 PM, Pradeepto Bhattacharya wrote:
Because a list member found my problem with libre software hilarious. I need solutions not expert comments. There are pros and cons on both sides.
Really? This is what you said and I quote - "It should nothave any bugs.". That statement is a joke and I am still laughing and I am sure others are too.
I am not laughing. What exactly is a bug? When, for example, in kword I save a file in OOo format and OOo is unable to open it, is that a bug? Or is it a failure of software - just bad software? As far as I know, the approach to writing software is to first write a use case, or all possible use cases that you can think of. Then write the software. Then write tests to cover all the above use cases, and release the software when it passes the tests. There will be unusual use cases and edge cases which are not anticipated and for which tests havent been written. Failure in these cases are bugs. But no failure in the main use-case.
In the case of saving in OOo format and OOo not opening it, this is not a bug. Because it is the main usecase of the particular feature. A simple test - open an OOo file, save it in OOo format and open it in OOo would have detected this, and the feature should not have been released. Yes, bugs will be there - but when a main/common use case fails - I dont think it can be called a bug and it is no laughing matter either. I havent gone into kword code to find if there are test suites, I hope there are ...
No siree if u thought that freesoftware is going to give your business a free ride you are wrong. Free software gives you a free ride if you take the trouble of educating your self. All it costs is time.
What is wrong in libre software being simple point and click? We are not slaves of technology. We are the masters and it has to work for us.
Libre software != Dole
On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 13:47 +0530, Rony wrote:
What is wrong in libre software being simple point and click? We are not slaves of technology. We are the masters and it has to work for us.
Thats the problem. We're the masters of technology but NOT of good UI design :)
Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 13:47 +0530, Rony wrote:
What is wrong in libre software being simple point and click? We are not slaves of technology. We are the masters and it has to work for us.
Thats the problem. We're the masters of technology but NOT of good UI design :)
I received this mail today in my inbox. Why aren't many list mails getting into my mailbox?
--- Rony wrote:
I received this mail today in my inbox. Why aren't many list mails getting into my mailbox?
Check your "Bulk" folder too. It is likely, it may have reached the bulk folder.
-- http://www.gnu.org.in ubunturos @ freenode
Why delete messages? Unlimited storage is just a click away. Go to http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html
On 15-Sep-07, at 1:23 PM, Rony wrote:
On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 13:47 +0530, Rony wrote:
What is wrong in libre software being simple point and click? We are not slaves of technology. We are the masters and it has to work for us.
Thats the problem. We're the masters of technology but NOT of good UI design :)
I received this mail today in my inbox. Why aren't many list mails getting into my mailbox?
are you missing mails, or are they just delayed?
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:47:25 +0530, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk said:
No siree if u thought that freesoftware is going to give your business a free ride you are wrong. Free software gives you a free ride if you take the trouble of educating your self. All it costs is time.
What is wrong in libre software being simple point and click? We are not slaves of technology. We are the masters and it has to work for us.
Sure. Provide patches. If upstream does not accept the patches, fork 'em. If your install method gains more mind share, your fork will thrive.
This is how free software is supposed to work -- people scratching their own itches, and providing their solutions back to the community.
manoj
On Tuesday 11 September 2007 13:47, Rony wrote:
No siree if u thought that freesoftware is going to give your business a free ride you are wrong. Free software gives you a free ride if you take the trouble of educating your self. All it costs is time.
What is wrong in libre software being simple point and click?
Knowing what you are pointing and clicking And knowing what the pointed-n-clicked thingy is doing. Then there is the very major problem of point-n-click preventing you from doing what u want.
We are not slaves of technology. We are the masters and it has to work for us.
Ha Ha. the more you point-n-click the deeper into slavery you are. And the more you feel that you are master the lesser u will know what u dont. If you are still cutomising by pointing and clicking rather than using some scripts you are wasting time.
hi JTD. actually the entire problem is that people don't realise the values of running a script. and by the way running a script is "nothing to do " with programming. I think clicking on next next finish etc is not a real good way of software setup. and the entire point of dividing a hard disk into c:, d:, etc is an all together different monster of a problem. I think that having things like "home " where I store data and having a operating system install softwares in a place from where no one except root can delete files is a real deciplene. I think that's why gnu/linux is so rock solid that I don't need ctrl alt delete. look here, we are professionals and have not a single second for passing time on crash recovery etc specially when it happens at the very moment some where in the middle of a conference presentation and on that very day when I was supposed to do demonstration in front of the chief minister or similar important person. windows = finger crossing. I am not saying that what roni faced it not true. he managed to replicate the same thing on my laptop so I know for sure that there is some kind of problem. but instead of throwing software away as unprofessional, we must realise that we as humans don't have the entire knowledge of the world. so let's wait and watch if some one sends that file to roni and myself off the list. and talking about gnu/linux desktops, I have live cases of people becoming so happy after switching over to linux from windows. and they are no programmers or even "do it your self " kind of people. yes some things did not work out of the box and I gave them a few commands to follow and things work for them exactly as they want. so I feel that windows surely does lak professional consistency and many more things which I now realise as I use gnu/linux more and more. regards, Krishnakant.
Hi,
On 9/11/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Pradeepto Bhattacharya wrote:
On 9/9/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I don't have Gutsy or Fiesty loaded.
That's not an issue you know. Well if you want updatedpackages you have to upgrade or build it yourself and hopefully they have been fixed. Again if not, file a bug report.
Updated packages with bug fixes should be available through apt repos. However functionality is about wish lists not bugs. Anyway I agree with
Well, please check a bugzilla again. You can tag a bug report as "WISHLIST". The developers would see that as a wishlist and not as a bug.
everything else you said. Maybe libre based packages are going too fast in the development cycle and nothing long term stable results from it.
Have you ever read any release cycle docs/plans for any libre software project?
Libre software works well for corporates who can afford their own programmers who can make improvements and customizations to the software due to its libre nature. The same is true for the do-it-yourself
If that was true, a small ashram in Panvel wouldn't have migrated from Windows to Linux. Mind you the didnot just internet at their place. But they needed stuff for page layout, office suite and more stuff - oh and all that on donated (or otherwise) hardware which was not even close to being called semi-powerful boxes. It took one guy with interest to do that - I am not sure how far they went with thier migration since I last visited them. The guy responsible is on this list, afaik. He even has asked questions on this list few times.
various versions of software. They need software that works at that time not after bug fixes. I can't give software to a customer saying that "Right now it won't work for you because it has bugs or less functionality but wait for some weeks or months, and the problem will definitely get fixed". Till then what should the customer do?
Again, this is software not magic and developers ( either sitting inside cubicles or in their own dark rooms or some such place ) write these software not wizards from Hogwarts School, you know.
Cheers!
Pradeepto
On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 20:57:17 +0530, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk said:
Pradeepto Bhattacharya wrote:
Hi,
On 9/9/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Its not KDE4. Its the one for Kubuntu 6.10. The KDE is 3.5.5 and KSpread 1.5.2.
Check the latest release, though I doubt 1.6 is available for Dapper. If you are brave enough, download the tarball and build it. Or try it on Fiesty or Gutsy. I am assuming one of those two will have 1.6.x. Actually 1.6.2 should be available for Fiesty and 1.6.3 is available for Gutsy. Try those if you can, check if you can reproduce the issue and if so submit a bug report ... oh wait ... it should not have bugs right?
I don't have Gutsy or Fiesty loaded.
It should not have any bugs.
This is the most hilarious statement ever! What is this? Utopia? Please do show me a software ( free or non-free ) without any bugs. I wonder why they ever create bugzilla or trac or any bug tracking software. And btw, unknown bugs *are* bugs.
It is not hilarious when M$ Office multi-user license will be procured, in the new machines that will be supplied, due to the critical nature of the work.
And you think microsoft products are bug free? there are not Tuesday patch application marathons? I think that the mismatch between your expectations and reality might indeed be the cause of merriment in many.
I don't expect buggy packages to be available on repos even after newer versions are out.
*Shrug*. Again, your expectations do not seem to match reality as it exists. Packages on repos are often unchanged, unless there is a security bug, in which case, _other_, newer packages are added to the security site.
Package updates happen when people move to do the work. I have often found that sometimes the person doing the work needs to be oneself; and then feeding back the work to the community makes it all go around.
BTW, most M$ users who use non-licensed copies, are using software copies that are quite some years old, they have no access to updates, yet they hardly find any problems or bugs in their software and are happily using them.
Err, I guess then there is no point for them to move to anything else, is there?. All these stories I read about botnets now containing several millions of machines must be all irrelevant, somehow.
manoj
On Sunday 09 September 2007 20:57, Rony wrote:
BTW, most M$ users who use non-licensed copies, are using software copies that are quite some years old, they have no access to updates, yet they hardly find any problems or bugs in their software and are happily using them.
Funny. Your users are from a different planet. Everyone of my users having docs of more than ten or twelve pages have had innumerable problems. The most recent experience was in Dec 06 when a voying list of 50K users had to be sorted and printed. After struggling for a week the client called me in. took a day to do things to everbody's satisfaction.
No they dont use pirated stuff - which anyway wont make a diff, the code is the same.
On Sunday 09 September 2007 20:57, Rony wrote:
[snip] BTW, most M$ users who use non-licensed copies, are using software copies that are quite some years old, they have no access to updates, yet they hardly find any problems or bugs in their software and are happily using them.
Heh, they don't find problems because the Storm Worm that has infected their computers is smart and knows how to hide itself well. I bet the owners of those 1 to 50 million infected Winduhs PCs also don't find any problems with running Winduhs without updates. Storm at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_Worm
Ignorance sure is bliss.
Regards,
-- Raju
hello, as JTD rightly said, there are many cases which even I know and I also mentioned about my own "popat " that happened in IIT international conference thanks to M$'s powerless pointless. but here what will people say? "it was not probably because our all mighty m$ had a bug, but because you must have used it in a wrong way". so here is that byus view "if bugs come in windows, they are our mistake and lak of knowledge and if similar things happen even at a much smaller scale, we blaim gnu/linux as un professional and buggy". so readers this is not even any thing to do with free vs non free, or even about software for that matter. the matter is the maintality of people and what we carry as rigid thinking about any given thing. the case which JTD mentioned is the most usual problem I have seen very often. I travel as an IT consultent all over India and I ahve seen similar problems like jtd suggested. so now I leave this for readers to decide as to whether we must become over confident about a software which is not even transparant in what it does and should we continue to call free software as non professional? (buggy or not buggy is not the point of debait at all. every system has those ). but the office provided by M$ is by far the most inconsistent thing I have seen. regards, Krishnakant.
On Sun, Sep 09, 2007 at 08:57:17PM +0530, Rony wrote:
BTW, most M$ users who use non-licensed copies, are using software copies that are quite some years old, they have no access to updates, yet they hardly find any problems or bugs in their software and are happily using them.
Thay are happily using them because Ctrl+Alt+Delete seems to "fix" it, at least for now, and then we'll repeat the same thing if it happens tonight. The users you refer to probably don't need their machines to run for long hours or days. Also, if they are regular internet users, then I most definitely contest your claim.
Of course, we were also not people who needed to have high uptimes, but things changed when we realized that we could have them! :-)
Kumar
On Sun, 2007-09-09 at 20:57 +0530, Rony wrote:
It is not hilarious when M$ Office multi-user license will be procured, in the new machines that will be supplied, due to the critical nature of the work. I don't expect buggy packages to be available on repos even after newer versions are out.
BTW, most M$ users who use non-licensed copies, are using software copies that are quite some years old, they have no access to updates, yet they hardly find any problems or bugs in their software and are happily using them.
I'm neither defending Microsoft and nor am I criticising Linux. Rony, Linux isn't really ready for the mission critical desktop applications. I know exactly what you mean when you say the above statements.
OOo can't be a replacement to M$ Office, just yet. It has a long way to go before it matures into a real competitor. Till then I dont think we can truly pitch Linux for the desktops / workstations where such work is to be carried out.
Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Sun, 2007-09-09 at 20:57 +0530, Rony wrote:
It is not hilarious when M$ Office multi-user license will be procured, in the new machines that will be supplied, due to the critical nature of the work. I don't expect buggy packages to be available on repos even after newer versions are out.
BTW, most M$ users who use non-licensed copies, are using software copies that are quite some years old, they have no access to updates, yet they hardly find any problems or bugs in their software and are happily using them.
I'm neither defending Microsoft and nor am I criticising Linux. Rony, Linux isn't really ready for the mission critical desktop applications. I know exactly what you mean when you say the above statements.
OOo can't be a replacement to M$ Office, just yet. It has a long way to go before it matures into a real competitor. Till then I dont think we can truly pitch Linux for the desktops / workstations where such work is to be carried out.
What I do is tell the client about libre software and in many cases they are willing to give it a shot. I don't interfere too much with their choices as they have to use it ultimately for all their daily work, not I. My purpose is to introduce them to freedom, not drag them to it. And I do it single handedly. When I had put up the problem on the list, there was not much help in terms of a workaround. It was only when the pin was pricked in the sensitive spot that everyone jumped up and responded.
To put it on record, I tried out the sorting of colours test at HBCSE today and Krish and Patwardhan are witness to it that it did not work on both their machines using OO. When the same was tried on a visitor's lappy with M$ Office, it worked.
I request those who tried it out successfully to please send the file off the list to Krish as he and Patwardhan want to study its properties. It appears to be some problem with merging of cell attributes.
On Wed, 2007-09-12 at 00:03 +0530, Rony wrote:
What I do is tell the client about libre software and in many cases they are willing to give it a shot. I don't interfere too much with their choices as they have to use it ultimately for all their daily work, not I. My purpose is to introduce them to freedom, not drag them to it. And I do it single handedly. When I had put up the problem on the list, there was not much help in terms of a workaround. It was only when the pin was pricked in the sensitive spot that everyone jumped up and responded.
Hmm...yes. I got a query a few months ago to migrate an office to Linux. The problem was and still is that I cant outright recommend Linux for Workstations / Desktops for the kind of work they do - Tally, M$ Office ( Word + Excel + PP ) and some custom made s/w.
Why? Simply because Linux sucks on the desktop. There would be too much headache for them to setup, maintain those machines, train their staff AND then put up with randomness that comes along with each update of OOo. I remember very well that someone one this list posted that OOo of Fedora worked better ( faster ) than the same version of OOo of Ubuntu.
To put it on record, I tried out the sorting of colours test at HBCSE today and Krish and Patwardhan are witness to it that it did not work on both their machines using OO.
Haha...must've been frustrating. Almost everyone (?) on this list reported that it worked...
On 11-Sep-07, at 4:21 PM, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
BTW, most M$ users who use non-licensed copies, are using software copies that are quite some years old, they have no access to updates, yet they hardly find any problems or bugs in their software and are happily using them.
I'm neither defending Microsoft and nor am I criticising Linux. Rony, Linux isn't really ready for the mission critical desktop applications. I know exactly what you mean when you say the above statements.
you are defending micorsoft and criticising linux. Anyway the whole discussion is moot as desktops are obsolete - yes, they will be there for sometime to come, but the main development is the web, and that is where the talent is going. And, as you can see, foss based companies have already far outstripped micorsoft.
OOo can't be a replacement to M$ Office, just yet. It has a long way to go before it matures into a real competitor.
both are already oboselete - it is just that neither knows it yet
On Wednesday 12 September 2007 06:55, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
Anyway the whole discussion is moot as desktops are obsolete - yes, they will be there for sometime to come, but the main development is the web,
So many discussions in this world ( and the software world in particular ) are moot. Just like the the above one ;).
Cheers! Sharan Rao
Greetings,
Suggestion:
Please cut the crap, stop cribbing, keep it simple, use what works best for you, and be happy. Not everything needs to be point and click. Similarly not everything needs to be all console. I've seen some thickheads who think the console is everything and point and click is pointless. Well, those thickheads need to get themselves into a recording studio for instance and try managing several hundred tracks using the console without pointing and clicking, or paint a masterpiece using your keyboard.
This thread has strayed far beyond the topic of the op's original post.
Right tool for the right job.
Warm Regards, Yesudeep.
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:21:45 +0530, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com said:
On Sun, 2007-09-09 at 20:57 +0530, Rony wrote:
It is not hilarious when M$ Office multi-user license will be procured, in the new machines that will be supplied, due to the critical nature of the work. I don't expect buggy packages to be available on repos even after newer versions are out.
BTW, most M$ users who use non-licensed copies, are using software copies that are quite some years old, they have no access to updates, yet they hardly find any problems or bugs in their software and are happily using them.
I'm neither defending Microsoft and nor am I criticising Linux. Rony, Linux isn't really ready for the mission critical desktop applications. I know exactly what you mean when you say the above statements.
In your opinion. I have seen Linux running mission critical desktop applications (well, Pixar, for example, did a whoile set of movies with Linux); so I can't take that statement at face value.
OOo can't be a replacement to M$ Office, just yet. It has a long way to go before it matures into a real competitor. Till then I dont think we can truly pitch Linux for the desktops / workstations where such work is to be carried out.
Frankly, I have founf OO to be better than office, in my experience, though neither of them can hold a candle to TeX.
manoj
On Tuesday 11 September 2007 16:21, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
I'm neither defending Microsoft and nor am I criticising Linux. Rony, Linux isn't really ready for the mission critical desktop applications. I know exactly what you mean when you say the above statements.
HEHE dont say that in knowledgable circles and make a fool of your self. ICICI Bank is one organisation which has switched in many depts.
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Dinesh Joshi wrote:
OOo can't be a replacement to M$ Office, just yet. It has a long way to go before it matures into a real competitor. Till then I dont think we can truly pitch Linux for the desktops / workstations where such work is to be carried out.
This must be once of the more fascinating threads in recent times - in the same thread there has been cries of "Linux not been enterprise ready" and "Linux not being desktop ready". A week back I had sat through someone telling that "OpenOffice.org is a piece of software whose destiny was to reduce the price of Microsoft Office". A culmination of all that might lead to one concluding that what are we eagerly debating. If OO.o indeed does not perform as expected file a bug and let's move on - else can someone test a sample file ?
The functionality of a desktop is in no small way tied in to the underlying data formats - if one chooses to use data formats that are not completely open and yet complain about the immature Linux desktop - then stretching that analogy a lack of Tally for Mac can be inferred as Mac being not suitable for a desktop. The desktop OS is a means to interact with content - if someone says that the desktop would be replaced by EverythingOnline (TM) - sure you are right - that can happen. But it ain't happening today at least.
If there are issues that are known to make OO.o barf - file an issue and move on. Commit to issuezilla and not to mailman
On 12-Sep-07, at 6:34 PM, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote:
If there are issues that are known to make OO.o barf - file an issue and move on. Commit to issuezilla and not to mailman
why not? Isnt discussion a good thing - and not all of us have the time to go through the buglist of each and every application that we may want to recommend to friends. Finding these things on a list are very helpful so we dont shoot ourselves in the foot.
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Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
why not? Isnt discussion a good thing - and not all of us have the time to go through the buglist of each and every application that we may want to recommend to friends. Finding these things on a list are very helpful so we dont shoot ourselves in the foot.
Sure discussion and collaboration are the best things - I see a lot of that happening. What I don't see happening are the proper steps to a problem resolution : obtain sample file, reproduce results, if problem persists file bug. Unless of course this list has suddenly seen infusion of OO.o devels who will figure out how to fix this bug which for all I can see is not being reproduced
- --
You see things; and you say 'Why?'; But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' - George Bernard Shaw www.linkedin.com/in/sankarshan
On 13-Sep-07, at 10:23 AM, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote:
to recommend to friends. Finding these things on a list are very helpful so we dont shoot ourselves in the foot.
Sure discussion and collaboration are the best things - I see a lot of that happening. What I don't see happening are the proper steps to a problem resolution : obtain sample file, reproduce results, if problem persists file bug. Unless of course this list has suddenly seen infusion of OO.o devels who will figure out how to fix this bug which for all I can see is not being reproduced
as far as OOo is concerned, this is an enduser list - it will discuss enduser issues in the belief that any OOo devels on the list would take note
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On Thursday 13 September 2007 11:05, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 13-Sep-07, at 10:23 AM, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote:
to recommend to friends. Finding these things on a list are very helpful so we dont shoot ourselves in the foot.
Sure discussion and collaboration are the best things - I see a lot of that happening. What I don't see happening are the proper steps to a problem resolution : obtain sample file, reproduce results, if problem persists file bug. Unless of course this list has suddenly seen infusion of OO.o devels who will figure out how to fix this bug which for all I can see is not being reproduced
as far as OOo is concerned, this is an enduser list - it will discuss enduser issues in the belief that any OOo devels on the list would take note
I don't agree. What that is is Winduhs luser behaviour -- the belief that since MS is not going to support you anyway (or since you can't legitimately ask for support), there's no point in reporting bugs. It is the end users' responsibility to report bugs, and just because Microsux hasn't encouraged that behaviour doesn't mean that we should just accept it and move on.
Regards,
- -- Raju - -- Raj Mathur raju@kandalaya.org http://kandalaya.org/ Freedom in Technology & Software || September 2007 || http://freed.in/ GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5 0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F PsyTrance & Chill: http://schizoid.in/ || It is the mind that moves
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:05:14 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org said:
On 13-Sep-07, at 10:23 AM, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote:
to recommend to friends. Finding these things on a list are very helpful so we dont shoot ourselves in the foot.
Sure discussion and collaboration are the best things - I see a lot of that happening. What I don't see happening are the proper steps to a problem resolution : obtain sample file, reproduce results, if problem persists file bug. Unless of course this list has suddenly seen infusion of OO.o devels who will figure out how to fix this bug which for all I can see is not being reproduced
as far as OOo is concerned, this is an enduser list - it will discuss enduser issues in the belief that any OOo devels on the list would take note
While not an OO.o developer, if I could reproduce the bug, I would triage it and file the proper bug, with any supporting evidence I could generate (including recompiling OO.o and running it under gdbm if that's what it takes).
But, so far, I have not been able to see the bug in action.
manoj
Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote:
Sure discussion and collaboration are the best things - I see a lot of that happening. What I don't see happening are the proper steps to a problem resolution : obtain sample file, reproduce results, if problem persists file bug.
I have tested this in my XP partition using OO 2.1 and it does not work there too.
I will repeat the test the way I do it. A test table is created in ODS with one cell given a background colour. Then the top left corner space is clicked to select the entire table. Then the sort buttons in the tool bar are clicked to move the cells up/down. The colour of the cell remains locked to that cell and does not move with the data.
So if a high security prison is using OO and has an ODS list of all inmates segregated by colours across each name. Green stands for those who will be released for good behaviour. Red means those extreme cases that will be sent to the gallows. Now after sorting the table if the colours don't move with the data and get exchanged, imaging the tragedy it will create.
On 9/13/07, Rony wrote:
I will repeat the test the way I do it. A test table is created in ODS with one cell given a background colour. Then the top left corner space is clicked to select the entire table. Then the sort buttons in the tool bar are clicked to move the cells up/down. The colour of the cell remains locked to that cell and does not move with the data.
Ok, its a bug. It occurs when the tool bar sort button is used. Using the menu item Data->Sort works fine. This is not an issue with: 1. the OS - the bug occurs on both Debian & WinXP (poor Ubuntu gets blamed for no reason) 2. the file format - the bug occurs with both ods and xls documents.
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:59:52 +0530, osric fernandes osric.fernandes@gmail.com said:
On 9/13/07, Rony wrote:
I will repeat the test the way I do it. A test table is created in ODS with one cell given a background colour. Then the top left corner space is clicked to select the entire table. Then the sort buttons in the tool bar are clicked to move the cells up/down. The colour of the cell remains locked to that cell and does not move with the data.
Ok, its a bug. It occurs when the tool bar sort button is used. Using the menu item Data->Sort works fine. This is not an issue with:
- the OS - the bug occurs on both Debian & WinXP (poor Ubuntu gets
blamed for no reason) 2. the file format - the bug occurs with both ods and xls documents.
Thanks for the analysis. Have you filed a bug, with the sample test case you worked with? If you have, could you please post details of the bug number, so it could be added to the Debian bug report (if you have not already done so)?
manoj
On 9/14/07, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:59:52 +0530, osric fernandes said:
On 9/13/07, Rony wrote:
I will repeat the test the way I do it. A test table is created in ODS with one cell given a background colour. Then the top left corner space is clicked to select the entire table. Then the sort buttons in the tool bar are clicked to move the cells up/down. The colour of the cell remains locked to that cell and does not move with the data.
Ok, its a bug. It occurs when the tool bar sort button is used. Using the menu item Data->Sort works fine. This is not an issue with:
- the OS - the bug occurs on both Debian & WinXP (poor Ubuntu gets
blamed for no reason) 2. the file format - the bug occurs with both ods and xls documents.
Thanks for the analysis. Have you filed a bug, with the sampletest case you worked with? If you have, could you please post details of the bug number, so it could be added to the Debian bug report (if you have not already done so)?
manoj
Oops, its not a bug. Its a feature ;-) Comment from OpenOffice.org's Issue 28296: (http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=28296)
"this is not a bug of OOo Calc.
If you use the buttons in the toolbar to sort your data, these buttons are not capable to do what you want. They are designed to do a quick Sort from A-Z, 0-9 and vice versa.
To solve your problem, mark the cell range A5:N55 and select Sort from the data menu. Make sure 'include formats' is tagged on the Options tabpage. The problem with the document supplied is that cells with formats can't be sorted if the range contains merged cells."
On 08-Sep-07, at 9:54 PM, Rony wrote:
Sorry to disappoint you but I just tried Koffice but it is nowhere even upto OO. I had created a test table of 4 columns and 5 rows in ODS format in OO. Now when I opened the file in Koffice, its sort feature itself is disabled. I cannot even select the entire table by clicking on the top left corner.
can you send me that file to try out
On 08-Sep-07, at 9:08 PM, Rony wrote:
have you ever tried koffice? much faster than open office - and in my opinion, much better
I will give it a shot in my pc. However the user is using Windows. I am going through the KDE port for Windows.
in fact, after a long time I installed Koffice - it rocks, and it's default format is odf. What more do you want?
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 08-Sep-07, at 9:08 PM, Rony wrote:
I will give it a shot in my pc. However the user is using Windows. I am going through the KDE port for Windows.
in fact, after a long time I installed Koffice - it rocks, and it's default format is odf. What more do you want?
It does not rock.
On 09-Sep-07, at 5:38 PM, Rony wrote:
I will give it a shot in my pc. However the user is using Windows. I am going through the KDE port for Windows.
in fact, after a long time I installed Koffice - it rocks, and it's default format is odf. What more do you want?
It does not rock.
my needs are simpler than yours
On 9/8/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Rony wrote:
Problem 1: His file consists of many rows and columns. Cells in each row are related to each other. Now in Excel he can sort columns individually and during each sorting, entire rows get sorted. So after every sort, the cells in each row are the same. It is the entire row that gets sorted. In OO he can sort columns but it sorts cells in that column only and this breaks the row and ultimately the table cells get cross connected.
Another problem is that if a cell is given a colour, after sorting, the cell shifts but the colour is stationary in the older cell location irrespective of sort changes.
I don't know which version you are using however I do regularly sort set of columns by selecting the set. If you select only one column OO assumes you need to sort just that.
Similarly let him define a range for the given data and then he should be able to select it very quickly and do multiple operations on it.
OO < 2.2 is slow in some things, 2.3 holds promise in terms of speed and is far more full featured than any other opensource office solutions. Comes as a part of gutsy right now.
regards, C
Chetan S wrote:
On 9/8/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Rony wrote:
Problem 1: His file consists of many rows and columns. Cells in each row are related to each other. Now in Excel he can sort columns individually and during each sorting, entire rows get sorted. So after every sort, the cells in each row are the same. It is the entire row that gets sorted. In OO he can sort columns but it sorts cells in that column only and this breaks the row and ultimately the table cells get cross connected.
Another problem is that if a cell is given a colour, after sorting, the cell shifts but the colour is stationary in the older cell location irrespective of sort changes.
I don't know which version you are using however I do regularly sort set of columns by selecting the set. If you select only one column OO assumes you need to sort just that.
I have installed OO 2.2. He selects the entire table by clicking the top left corner and then uses sort. For columns he moves the horizontal scroll bar right to get the required column in first place on screen and then sorts. In M$ he can do it in a hierarchical manner and sort rows accordingly.
As mentioned in the next mail, cell colours don't move with the cell after a sort.
Similarly let him define a range for the given data and then he should be able to select it very quickly and do multiple operations on it.
OO < 2.2 is slow in some things, 2.3 holds promise in terms of speed and is far more full featured than any other opensource office solutions. Comes as a part of gutsy right now.
He is using windows and .xls format.
hello all, thankfully the flame war seams to have taken a conceptual path and that is helthy as a debating point which raises the level of knowledge. firstly thanks osric for the off list email attachment. I had guessed that it will be you who will send the file. I even predicted this to roni yesterday (and I am not oracle). by the way I again repeat "running a script and answering y or n " is nothing to do with programming. coding in assembly language is no where in comparison with running a script blindly. for example I don't feel the following 3 commands are even analysed by most people as to what they do. ./configure make make install. I know so many people who are normal users and they do these commands and don't even know what they mean or do. and when I delete a message in my mobile I have to answer yes or no and that is similar to a script. if I want to give the best possible solution to my customer I will take all my efords to at least learn installation process (which is nothing to do with coding the software ) and do my best. and talking about bug or failure, well, software is a failure when a feature or use case fails every where. osric has got success so have others. I am not challenging roni because he is not lying either. but the point is that there are so many people who r *not* facing that problem. and as some gentelman emailed in the evening, I haven't seen any one filing a bug report on oo web site. those who did not find the problem are obviously not expected to file it because they don't have that problem replicated. whether a failure or bug, the point is roni had the experience and he proved it in front of me so a bug report is needed. I haven't tried the file sent by osric and I don't use debian. now one interesting point, fedora users don't complain of this problem nor do debian users, so ubuntu? ... I will try doing one thing and may be JTD can correct me if I am wrong or who ever who knows debian better. I will try installing the open office package from the actual debian repos and see if I too get the same result like osric does. will it be fine or not can be adviced by people. one last point. the mobile I am using is only for use not for doing any setup. so while I don't expect my client to use command line for word processing (I wont do it myself either ). I am at least as an installer expected the right and perfect way to install the software and the installation process must be completely in my control. I have never been to nokia manifacturing factories so don't know whether they use scrips for installing software on my mobile. but as a user I am supposed to have ease of use as roni says and I agree. but daily use and installation are 2 different issues you know? regards, Krishnakant.
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