Mr gates is blind person as far as linux is conserned . he dont know the BEST OS in world as he is chairman of worst one ... any way few years down the time he will know the power of linux ..
rav ----- Original Message ----- From: Nikhil Kale To: ILUG BOM Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 12:20 PM Subject: [ILUG-BOM] [OT] Economic Times Article "Windows far ahead of Linux: Gates"
Check out what Bill Gates has to say ...... somebody please enlighten him
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/comp/articleshow?artid=2808...
Nikhil Kale Software Engineer. Mahindra British Telecom Ltd. Mobile No: +919821228022
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On Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:45:59 +0530 Linux wrote:
It would be nice if you change your name please. Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds. Of course, it's another story if that's the name in your official records!
----- Original Message ----- From: Nikhil Kale
[snip]
Check out what Bill Gates has to say ...... somebody please enlighten him
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/comp/articleshow?artid=2808...
He's enlightened enough, that's why he's saying all that. The only problem is that many people take his word as the ultimate authority on software.
Quoting Vinayak Hegde vinayak_hegde@mail.softhome.net:
Linux wrote:
Mr gates is blind person as far as linux is conserned .
he dont know the BEST OS in world as he is chairman of worst one ...
any way few years down the time he will know the power of linux .. rav
did someone say "Ignorance is Bliss"??? :))
[snip]
Ahaaaaaaaaa....many a time, his ignorance is bliss to us. Think about it.
Bye for now.
Trevor
At 12:56 morn 11/15/02 -0500, TW wrote:
Quoting Vinayak Hegde vinayak_hegde@mail.softhome.net:
Linux wrote:
Mr gates is blind person as far as linux is conserned .
he dont know the BEST OS in world as he is chairman of worst one ...
any way few years down the time he will know the power of linux .. rav
did someone say "Ignorance is Bliss"??? :))
[snip]
Ahaaaaaaaaa....many a time, his ignorance is bliss to us. Think about it.
you really think he is ignorant? Usually people have good reasons to feign ignorance.
... /never/ underestimate the enemy. (But in our case we dont have to even think of M$, it is actually an irrelevant factor. FSF & free software ideology is not based on anti-M$ sentiments but the sharing spirit of the scientific & academic community.)
quasi
Ahaaaaaaaaa....many a time, his ignorance is bliss to us. Think about it.
*snip*
I don't think Gates can afford to be ignorant - not at this stage at least. But tell you what, Gates does promote ignorance amongst his users.
"Linux is just an operating system ... " whoever would make such a provocation ;).
At the same time many developers feel that .NET is a strategy to get *non-free* M$ code to run on GNU/Linux - and I think the same. Talk about ignorance!
Amol Hatwar.
What MS is doing with the .Net, is to insure its self against future loss of market share in desktop environment. The entire core of dotnet strategy is to move things away from the desktop / client and move the processing to the server. They expect all software in future to run on a browser. These software will run so long as the server hosting it is microsoft........The desktop client will no longer matter. They are not doing this for the benefit of Linux / Unix /. Mac, but as a hedge for their own future.
The move to port dotnet to linux platform is another version of the same hedging......in case linux becomes more popular on the server front, software designed on dotnet platform will run even if the server is running linux, and the desktops are windows. Believe me, they will finalise and complete the codes to production level only if linux becomes too popular at server level.......Otherwise, it will remain "experimental"
Regards Saswata
----- Original Message ----- From: "Amol Hatwar" rollacosta@phreaker.net To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 2:04 PM Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] [OT] Ignorance is bliss
At the same time many developers feel that .NET is a strategy to get *non-free* M$ code to run on GNU/Linux - and I think the same. Talk about ignorance!
What MS is doing with the .Net, is to insure its self against future loss
of
market share in desktop environment. The entire core of dotnet strategy is to move things away from the desktop / client and move the processing to
the
server.
These days are too far. The people at Sun thought about the Network Computer and burnt their hands.
Sometimes I use connection speeds where even the K is absent ;).
They expect all software in future to run on a browser. These
software will run so long as the server hosting it is microsoft........The desktop client will no longer matter. They are not doing this for the benefit of Linux / Unix /. Mac, but as a hedge for their own future.
The term .NET is confusing, you are refering to the passport and other services. Speaking technically correctly .NET is an initiative... that promises a lot of things. The Linux/Windows interoperability that I am talking of here is one of them.
The move to port dotnet to linux platform is another version of the same
Like I said .NET is NOT a product that you install... its an initiative... comprising of a multitude of products and services. Porting... is some other question.
hedging......in case linux becomes more popular on the server front, software designed on dotnet platform will run even if the server is
running
linux, and the desktops are windows. Believe me, they will finalise and complete the codes to production level only if linux becomes too popular
at server level.......Otherwise, it will remain "experimental"
Which OS do you think has the upperhand in server markets now? :D
You may want to know more about how GNU is replying and strengthening its ante at http://dotgnu.org
Warm regards,
Amol Hatwar.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Amol Hatwar" rollacosta@phreaker.net To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 6:20 PM Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] [OT] Ignorance is bliss
market share in desktop environment. The entire core of dotnet strategy
is
to move things away from the desktop / client and move the processing to the server
These days are too far. The people at Sun thought about the Network
Computer
and burnt their hands.
Sometimes I use connection speeds where even the K is absent ;).
DotNet was thougth out and designed when the DotCom boom was at its crest and every one was saying the all corporate will move to ASP (Application Service Provider) model of computing. The dotnet strategy could, obviously not be changed at this stage though the dotcom boom ended, so its features are still there waiting for the time when it will be implemented. Till then, it will only serve to further bloat windows software.
As for Network Computer, I think one hand it was badly marketed, and on the other hand, there was very little benefit of moving to that platform. The savings at each client was minimum and that power demand requirement added on the server side was too much. Sun based its NC strategy on "Anit-Microsoft" platform rather on user needs and benefits.
Regards Saswata
----- Original Message -----
From: "Amol Hatwar" rollacosta@phreaker.net To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 6:20 PM Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] [OT] Ignorance is bliss
market share in desktop environment. The entire core of dotnet strategy
is
to move things away from the desktop / client and move the processing
to
the server
These days are too far. The people at Sun thought about the Network
Computer
and burnt their hands.
Sometimes I use connection speeds where even the K is absent ;).
DotNet was thougth out and designed when the DotCom boom was at its crest and every one was saying the all corporate will move to ASP (Application Service Provider) model of computing. The dotnet strategy could, obviously not be changed at this stage though the dotcom boom ended, so its features are still there waiting for the time when it will be implemented. Till
then,
it will only serve to further bloat windows software.
The ASP model in general was a failure how many more dot-com companies do we need to prove that.
As for Network Computer, I think one hand it was badly marketed, and on
the
other hand, there was very little benefit of moving to that platform. The savings at each client was minimum and that power demand requirement added on the server side was too much. Sun based its NC strategy on "Anit-Microsoft" platform rather on user needs and benefits.
The NC seems promising even today. But then lets wait for IBM to eat Sun ;). Maybe then it will be more valid.
Regards,
Amol Hatwar.
well...as the subject suggested..i was ignoring this thread, but i kinda got bored of NOT writing ....;-)
The ASP model in general was a failure how many more dot-com companies do we need to prove that.
err...what has the dotcom got to do with the ASP model?
also..we're hearing all this talk of Linux vs MS for donkey's (y)ears..are we adding anything new here? I've been working with corporates large and small for some years now, and I've observed that: 1) those who dont have the money, install pirated software -so there goes ur "free os" argument. 2) those who have the money and have critical apps go for Solaris or AIX or HP-UX - and since these OS companies are anyways giving the hardware, the OS goes virtually free with it - so there goes ur money argument again. As for the "you-can-play-with-the-source-code" argument - who the heck wants to play around with the source code when ur running SAP on that box and its being used 24x7 ??
I've seen Linux mainly in development, email and web servers - show me some front-office/back-office banking apps on linux please. You might give n number of reasons for Linux, but please remember that the sys admin and IT Managers have a career and their children to think of - Solaris backed by Sun's service contract and replacement SLA's are essential for them to save their backsides.Who wants to be an adventurist in such a situation? very few...
I might be sounding pessimistic here, but thats not the point. A good product by itself does not make a good investment - there are a lot of intangible factors there!
regds, kishor
__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "kishor bhagwat" aaaaarrrgghhh@yahoo.com To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] [OT] Ignorance is bliss
well...as the subject suggested..i was ignoring this thread, but i kinda got bored of NOT writing ....;-)
The ASP model in general was a failure how many more dot-com companies do we need to prove that.
err...what has the dotcom got to do with the ASP model?
Hmm... my fault lack of precision. I meant to say something in the line of dot-com bursts
also..we're hearing all this talk of Linux vs MS for donkey's (y)ears..are we adding anything new here? I've been working with corporates large and small for some
true!
years now, and I've observed that:
- those who dont have the money, install pirated software
-so there goes ur "free os" argument.
:)
- those who have the money and have critical apps go for
Solaris or AIX or HP-UX - and since these OS companies are anyways giving the hardware, the OS goes virtually free with it - so there goes ur money argument again. As for the "you-can-play-with-the-source-code" argument -
Note: This will change... as a squeezing profit margins will demand IT to be more productive.
who the heck wants to play around with the source code when ur running SAP on that box and its being used 24x7 ??
I've seen Linux mainly in development, email and web servers - show me some front-office/back-office banking apps on linux please.
This will change in the time to come too.
You might give n number of reasons for Linux, but please remember that the sys admin and IT Managers have a career and their children to think of
Glad you thought of them. You are confusing services that can be charged against ready-made solutions that are virtually free.
- Solaris backed by Sun's
service contract and replacement SLA's are essential for them to save their backsides.
:)
Who wants to be an adventurist
I wouldn't call it adventurism... I would call it exploring better platforms for retaining competetiveness.
in such a situation? very few...
GNU/Linux isn't backed by companies like Sun who push things down your throat just because they invested time and money for making something. It will only go to places where YOU take it to. Its an ecosystem like model, and evolution is the key.
Its just that some people like me and others on the list want to make GNU/Linux evolve and take it to places. There are others who don't want to do it, probably because, they aren't supportive of the idea. I'll be happy to have a world like this.
What makes me uncomfortable is the third pedigree, *a majority* who sit on the walls that separate the camps and jump on a side whenever they feel it gets stronger.
Maybe we must just chose on which side we want to be.
Amol Hatwar.
At 09:30 even 11/15/02 +0530, AH wrote:
You might give n number of reasons for Linux, but please remember that the sys admin and IT Managers have a career and their children to think of
Glad you thought of them. You are confusing services that can be charged against ready-made solutions that are virtually free.
I dont think so. Companies will, I suppose, /need/ someone to take responsibility. They may be free, will still need (support==money-spent).
- Solaris backed by Sun's
service contract and replacement SLA's are essential for them to save their backsides.
:)
Who wants to be an adventurist
I wouldn't call it adventurism... I would call it exploring better platforms for retaining competetiveness.
What Kishor says makes sense. How do you define 'better' here? How do you think Gnu/Linux is /better/ than, say, BSD for a critical 24/7 thingy? Or that matter even Sun or HP or Others? Who takes responsibility? How much cost difference it will make to buy, say, SunOS+support against GNU/Linux+support? If it gets too competitive Sun can always reduce the prise of the OS per say. The money making is in the service anyway.
in such a situation? very few...
GNU/Linux isn't backed by companies like Sun who push things down your throat just because they invested time and money for making something. It will only go to places where YOU take it to. Its an ecosystem like model, and evolution is the key.
yeah. So why do we need to sell the cake? Eat the cake if you want. Make more cake for anyone else who may want a bite. Help someone make the cake. Improve the recipe of the cake. But if you /do/ want to sell the cake - then sell, but why insist that all the cake sellers on the street /must/ share & disclose their recipes?
Its just that some people like me and others on the list want to make GNU/Linux evolve and take it to places. There are others who don't want to do it, probably because, they aren't supportive of the idea. I'll be happy to have a world like this.
GNU/Linux will not necessarily evolve if it runs some X company's server. "Take it to places" is a personal choice.
What makes me uncomfortable is the third pedigree, *a majority* who sit on the walls that separate the camps and jump on a side whenever they feel it gets stronger.
It may be that for many the criteria of choice here is a variable.
Maybe we must just chose on which side we want to be.
which is quite a complicated issue.
Free your mind would sound nice, but as is known by many it sometimes happens that there get created areas which do not have a pointer pointing to them - hence free() does not work.
quasi
At 09:30 even 11/15/02 +0530, AH wrote:
You might give n number of reasons for Linux, but please remember that the sys admin and IT Managers have a career and their children to think of
Glad you thought of them. You are confusing services that can be charged against ready-made solutions that are virtually free.
*snip*
Quasi, sunny boy... you still here I thought you'd left the list aeons ago :).
Welcome back... and enjoy your stay.
Warm wishes,
Amol Hatwar.
At 02:16 even 11/16/02 +0530, AH wrote:
against ready-made solutions that are virtually free.
*snip*
Quasi, sunny boy... you still here I thought you'd left the list aeons ago :).
I warn you to not get personal... If you have nothing to argue back (which isnt a surprise) then just STFU.
q
At 02:16 even 11/16/02 +0530, AH wrote:
against ready-made solutions that are virtually free.
*snip*
Quasi, sunny boy... you still here I thought you'd left the list aeons
ago :).
I warn you to not get personal... If you have nothing to argue back
(which
isnt a surprise) then just STFU.
Argue back? maybe... but there ain't no use splashing water on a quacker's back. I didn't know you'd get so touchy with a welcome message. (BTW... aren't welcome messages supposed to be personal?)
Anyway... *lets hope* you enjoy your stay.
Regards,
Amol Hatwar.
At 07:31 even 11/16/02 +0530, AH wrote:
Argue back? maybe... but there ain't no use splashing water on a quacker's back.
cuts both ways.
I didn't know you'd get so touchy with a welcome message. (BTW... aren't welcome messages supposed to be personal?)
the simple reason is one needs a welcome message only when one come's back. And I find it hard to believe your sincerity of intent.
Anyway... *lets hope* you enjoy your stay.
*I hope* would have suited better than *lets hope*. You do have a nice way with words. Sweet Insults. Can ya do something nice? Please dont waste your valuable time on me.
Anyway it dosent matter. As you insinuated there are quackers all over the place.
quasi
At 07:31 even 11/16/02 +0530, AH wrote:
Argue back? maybe... but there ain't no use splashing water on a
quacker's
back.
cuts both ways.
I didn't know you'd get so touchy with a welcome message. (BTW... aren't welcome messages supposed to be personal?)
the simple reason is one needs a welcome message only when one come's back. And I find it hard to believe your sincerity of intent.
Anyway... *lets hope* you enjoy your stay.
*I hope* would have suited better than *lets hope*. You do have a nice
way
with words. Sweet Insults.
*chop* Insults... its all in your brain. Anyway thanks for the compliment. One should never defeat someone with style when one can do it with substance.
*I hope* from the next time we treat each other with more respect - and respect each others opinions too. Some differences will naturally remain unresolved... but then every fingerprint is different.
Warm wishes,
Amol Hatwar.
At 02:01 even 11/17/02 +0530, AH wrote:
way with words. Sweet Insults.
*chop* Insults... its all in your brain. Anyway thanks for the compliment. One should never defeat someone with style when one can do it with substance.
*I hope* from the next time we treat each other with more respect
"sonny boy" does not sound very respectful... but then maybe it is my brain. I do not know you at all to respect or disrespect you. As a unknown person I absolutely have no need nor reason to disrespect or insult /you/ personally.
- and respect each others opinions too.
Which I do not agree to. I will absolutely not mind you kicking my opinion's ass. But do it impersonally. That is why I am here - to learn and see other opinions. But just because someone has a different opinion dosent naturally make it a good opinion. We have to defend ours while keeping an open mind about others. That is the whole point of discussions /arguments. I personally dont try to be "nice" about things I do not agree to (with reasoning, ofcourse) - maybe that is the bad side effect of hanging out at c.l.l. '-)
Some differences will naturally remain unresolved... but then every fingerprint is different.
Having said the above, I agree that different people will have different opinions. And if you have read my post at all you will notice that the bottom line of most of them was about allowing others their right to opinion (dosent have anything to do with respect - you /have/ to accept other's right to opinion even if you utterly disagree to that opinion). What you may have considered bad ass attitude was sarcasm due to some of the big brothers on this list starting to have a heavier hand then to my liking for a public forum (here I assume this is a public forum). eg. Line wrapping issue and the threat to auto wrap at the list server.
regards, quasi
----- Original Message ----- From: "q u a s i" quasar@vsnl.net To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] [OT] Ignorance is bliss
At 02:01 even 11/17/02 +0530, AH wrote:
way with words. Sweet Insults.
*chop* Insults... its all in your brain. Anyway thanks for the compliment. One should never defeat someone with style when one can do it with substance.
*I hope* from the next time we treat each other with more respect
"sonny boy" does not sound very respectful... but then maybe it is my brain. I do not know you at all to respect or disrespect you. As a unknown person I absolutely have no need nor reason to disrespect or
insult
/you/ personally.
I _never_ alleged or provoked insult. Anyway... accept my sincere apologies if I said anything unkind.
Regards,
Amol Hatwar.
Amol Hatwar writes:
At 07:31 even 11/16/02 +0530, AH wrote:
Argue back? maybe... but there ain't no use splashing water on a
quacker's
back.
cuts both ways.
I didn't know you'd get so touchy with a welcome message. (BTW... aren't welcome messages supposed to be personal?)
the simple reason is one needs a welcome message only when one come's back. And I find it hard to believe your sincerity of intent.
Anyway... *lets hope* you enjoy your stay.
*I hope* would have suited better than *lets hope*. You do have a nice
way
with words. Sweet Insults.
*chop* Insults... its all in your brain. Anyway thanks for the compliment. One should never defeat someone with style when one can do it with substance.
*I hope* from the next time we treat each other with more respect - and respect each others opinions too. Some differences will naturally remain unresolved... but then every fingerprint is different.
Warm wishes,
Amol Hatwar.
Let's not get personal on the list and stop the flame wars. plz. we don't want to drive people away from the list.
************** Vinayak Hegde APGDST Student NCST-Juhu **************
Amol Hatwar writes:
Quasi, sunny boy... you still here I thought you'd left the list aeons
ago :).
I warn you to not get personal... If you have nothing to argue back
(which
isnt a surprise) then just STFU.
Argue back? maybe... but there ain't no use splashing water on a quacker's back. I didn't know you'd get so touchy with a welcome message. (BTW... aren't welcome messages supposed to be personal?) Amol Hatwar.
Let there be peace. Make love not war. :)
************** Vinayak Hegde APGDST Student NCST-Juhu **************
kishor bhagwat wrote
also..we're hearing all this talk of Linux vs MS for donkey's (y)ears..are we adding anything new here I've been working with corporates large and small for some years now, and I've observed that:
- those who dont have the money, install pirated software
-so there goes ur "free os" argument.
The Pirated OS people are using is not *FREE*. It's illegal. Notify M$ and they get caught. This is particularly true for corporates as compared to home users.
- those who have the money and have critical apps go for
Solaris or AIX or HP-UX - and since these OS companies are anyways giving the hardware, the OS goes virtually free with it - so there goes ur money argument again.
No it doesn't. Probably they are at the mercy of the properietary vendor who sells them the software. Most (*not all*) get looted in the name of service. With Linux if they are unsatisfied with one vendor they can move onto another as the source code is available and there are no major copyright/NDA issues involved. What about those companies which have the skills and not the money. They pirate or suffer in silence. They lose anyways. :(
The OS comes *virtually free* as people pay through their nose for the Hardware.
As for the "you-can-play-with-the-source-code" argument - who the heck wants to play around with the source code when ur running SAP on that box and its being used 24x7 ??
It is not just a question of playing around with the software, it's also about maintainence. Imagine a scenario in which you need desperate help for a printer driver (remember RMS :)) ) and you don't have the source code. You wait till the concerned service person becomes free or agrees to come over to solve the problem. Meanwhile you have lost lots of your business and your customers have ditched you. With linux you can always get some local hacker to help you or mail on this mailing list to get help. Can we say the same for HP-UX/Solaris/XYZ Corp.??
I've seen Linux mainly in development, email and web servers - show me some front-office/back-office banking apps on linux please.
There are lots of them. I myself have installed a front-office/ backoffice user base of 300 people recently. They are all using it happily and compliment us on the increase in their productivity, thanks to GNU/Linux and FS/OSS. Linux dominates in the above mentioned fields (devel/mail/etc) and it is in these fields that it is most visble.
You might give n number of reasons for Linux, but please remember that the sys admin and IT Managers have a career and their children to think of - Solaris backed by Sun's service contract and replacement SLA's are essential for them to save their backsides.Who wants to be an adventurist in such a situation? very few...
Haven't you read the disclaimers?? And if their service is so prompt why are people starting to prefer linux?? I agree the linux service segment in this country is weak but it is picking up slowly but surely hence BILLY boys visit to India
I might be sounding pessimistic here, but thats not the point. A good product by itself does not make a good investment - there are a lot of intangible factors there!
Totally agreed. Hence Fortune500 companies also are moving to Linux. China has moved to RedFlag Linux. China Lags behind India only in the IT field. And my fear is we will lose out if we don't act fast.
regds, kishor
---> Vinayak Hegde
--- Vinayak Hegde vinayak_hegde@mail.softhome.net wrote:
The Pirated OS people are using is not *FREE*. It's illegal. Notify M$ and they get caught. This is particularly true for corporates as compared to home users. No it doesn't. Probably they are at the mercy of the properietary vendor who sells them the software.
my friend - its the vendors who are at the mercy of the clients - there is so little business!!Enterprises have nvr had it so good!
The OS comes *virtually free* as people pay through their nose for the Hardware.
and boy..is it good hardware! ever seen a blade server? I havent - but i hear they are real cool! ;-)
It is not just a question of playing around with the software, it's also about maintainence. Imagine a scenario in which you need desperate help for a printer driver (remember RMS :)) ) and you don't have the source code. You wait till the concerned service person becomes free or agrees to come over to solve the problem. Meanwhile you have lost lots of your business and your customers have ditched you. With linux you can always get some local hacker to help you or mail on this mailing list to get help. Can we say the same for HP-UX/Solaris/XYZ Corp.??
3 things - clients usually sign a SLA,so vendors are bound to reply within a stipulated time. second, that client is stupid...if printing is so critical, he would have alternatives available... third..who would u trust..an unknown hacker who doesnt kow the printer or a service engineer who knows all about that printer?
There are lots of them. I myself have installed a front-office/ backoffice user base of 300 people recently. They are all using it happily and compliment us on the increase in their productivity, thanks to GNU/Linux and FS/OSS.
is it a banking app where every second of downtime costs lakhs?
Haven't you read the disclaimers?? And if their service is so prompt why are people starting to prefer linux?? I agree the linux service segment in this country is weak but it is picking up slowly but surely hence BILLY boys visit to India
WHY THIS FIXATION WITH MS? Linux competes with AIX/Solaris/HP-UX in the server market more than MS...so quit thinking of MS!!!
And what disclaimers are you referring to? Enterprises are not fools...they spend money but know how to squeeze the last out of you,and they will make ur life miserable if you dont stick to your promises - take it from me - i've been dealing with them for years now.
get real!
regds, Kishor
__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com
kishor bhagwat writes:
my friend - its the vendors who are at the mercy of the clients - there is so little business!!Enterprises have nvr had it so good!
This really is news to me. I thought lots of corporates had legacy systems.
and boy..is it good hardware! ever seen a blade server? I havent - but i hear they are real cool! ;-)
I have heard it's good. But who knows it may actually run faster on Linux. Just shooting arrows in the dark. ;-)
3 things - clients usually sign a SLA,so vendors are bound to reply within a stipulated time. second, that client is stupid...if printing is so critical, he would have alternatives available... third..who would u trust..an unknown hacker who doesnt kow the printer or a service engineer who knows all about that printer?
The printing was just a reference to RMS. the example was just a illustration. but what use is a service engineer if he's not available?? If it's linux, chances are there that some one might know. If not locally maybe you could get help on some newsgroup/mailing list.
There are lots of them. I myself have installed a front-office/ backoffice user base of 300 people recently. They are all using it happily and compliment us on the increase in their productivity, thanks to GNU/Linux and FS/OSS.
is it a banking app where every second of downtime costs lakhs?
I am aware of banks who have moved to linux. If I am right one of them is located in central suburbs and uses VPN and tunnelling to connect to it's other other branches.
Haven't you read the disclaimers?? And if their service is so prompt why are people starting to prefer linux?? I agree the linux service segment in this country is weak but it is picking up slowly but surely hence BILLY boys visit to India
WHY THIS FIXATION WITH MS? Linux competes with AIX/Solaris/HP-UX in the server market more than MS...so quit thinking of MS!!!
Yeah,I agree but you can't just ignore a 600-pound gorilla ;)
************** Vinayak Hegde APGDST Student NCST-Juhu **************
----- Original Message ----- From: vinayak_hegde@softhome.net To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 6:29 PM Subject: [ILUG-BOM] Re: Ignorance is bliss
and boy..is it good hardware! ever seen a blade server? I havent - but i hear they are real cool! ;-)
I have heard it's good. But who knows it may actually run faster on Linux. Just shooting arrows in the dark. ;-)
Talk to IBM and they will show you a comparison. BTW, if you buy a rack of half pizza servers from ibm, they give you a server cluster management software (I think that is what it is called), to manamge all of them remotely......And the software is Linux. In fact, I remember them telling me that they have choosen a special version (I dont think I can call it a distro) and modified it so that it can run and manage their servers seamlessly, fast and easily (very user friendly)
Regards Saswata
kishor bhagwat writes:
my friend - its the vendors who are at the mercy of the clients - there is so little business!!Enterprises have nvr had it so good!
This really is news to me. I thought lots of corporates had legacy systems.
and boy..is it good hardware! ever seen a blade server? I havent - but i hear they are real cool! ;-)
I have heard it's good. But who knows it may actually run faster on Linux. Just shooting arrows in the dark. ;-)
Blade serevers? Whoever wanted to put the Laptop architecture into a high-density server configuration.
Real estate prices in India are cheap (compared to prices in the EU countries)... I'll be surprised if someone is using blades here. Also the blade servers encourage a more use and throw regimen. Surpisingly, many EU people don't like use and throw either.
Regards,
Amol Hatwar.
--- Amol Hatwar rollacosta@phreaker.net wrote:
Real estate prices in India are cheap (compared to prices in the EU countries)... I'll be surprised if someone is using blades here. Also the blade servers encourage a more use and throw regimen. Surpisingly, many EU people don't like use and throw either.
err...Mumbai is among the top 5 expensive cities in terms of real estate. Secondly, the concept of blade servers is not use and throw..they are for online capacity additions..
regds, kishor
__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com
--- Amol Hatwar rollacosta@phreaker.net wrote:
Real estate prices in India are cheap (compared to prices in the EU countries)... I'll be surprised if someone is using blades here. Also the blade servers encourage a more use and throw regimen. Surpisingly, many EU people don't like use and throw either.
err...Mumbai is among the top 5 expensive cities in terms of real estate. Secondly, the concept of blade servers is not use and throw..they are for online capacity additions..
You are right there kishor... they call it scalability. But then one shouldn't be so gullible to the marketing and sales people.
Ever wondered what you can do with a broken down blade?
Regards,
Amol Hatwar.
Haven't you read the disclaimers?? And if their service is so prompt why are people starting to prefer linux??
*snip* I'll remove the dislaimers for you... sign an SLA and give you express support. But for that you got to pay. And again, if you don't like me... you can get Vinayak in - plus you can give him all the sources I change for you.
Is anything trickling in now?
Regards,
Amol Hatwar.
--- Amol Hatwar rollacosta@phreaker.net wrote:
Haven't you read the disclaimers?? And if their
service
is so prompt why are people starting to prefer
linux?? *snip* I'll remove the dislaimers for you... sign an SLA and give you express support. But for that you got to pay. And again, if you don't like me... you can get Vinayak in - plus you can give him all the sources I change for you.
..sure, if Vinayak is contactable, free, willing to come..and of course, he starts with first *understanding what all changes have been made and then diagnosing the problem and THEN finding a solution...does wonders for response time doesnt it? Time is money...enterprises will pay for support if their downtime costs are higher!
Is anything trickling in now?
...just the same arguments..;-)
regds, Kishor
__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com
kishor bhagwat writes:
Haven't you read the disclaimers?? And if their
service
is so prompt why are people starting to prefer
linux?? *snip* I'll remove the dislaimers for you... sign an SLA and give you express support. But for that you got to pay. And again, if you don't like me... you can get Vinayak in - plus you can give him all the sources I change for you.
..sure, if Vinayak is contactable, free, willing to come..and of course, he starts with first *understanding what all changes have been made and then diagnosing the problem and THEN finding a solution...does wonders for response time doesnt it? Time is money...enterprises will pay for support if their downtime costs are higher!
Is anything trickling in now?
...just the same arguments..;-)
regds, Kishor
Like Perl, in life as well as other things, "There is more than one way to do it". *YOU* have to decide which is the right thing to do and which is most suitable for you, given the circumstances. Some philosophy huh?? ;-).
************** Vinayak Hegde APGDST Student NCST-Juhu **************
--- Amol Hatwar rollacosta@phreaker.net wrote:
Haven't you read the disclaimers?? And if their
service
is so prompt why are people starting to prefer
linux?? *snip* I'll remove the dislaimers for you... sign an SLA and give you express support. But for that you got to pay. And again, if you don't like me... you can get Vinayak in - plus you can give him all the sources I change for you.
..sure, if Vinayak is contactable, free, willing to come..and of course, he starts with first *understanding what all changes have been made and then diagnosing the problem and THEN finding a solution...does wonders for response time doesnt it? Time is money...enterprises will pay for support if their downtime costs are higher!
Is anything trickling in now?
*snip* Sounds like you haven't had much development experience. Thats how programmers around the world code Free Software.
Anyway... lets get your *closed* software in the picture here. I want someone else to better and maintain it now. Will you as a previous vendor: 1. Help me 2. Give my new partner the sources 3. Even if you do 1. and 2. what will my new partner get help from the community? No. because the community doesn't know - the software was closed.
Bottomline: I am on my own.
Regards,
Amol Hatwar.
Sounds like you haven't had much development experience. Thats how programmers around the world code Free Software.
sure..thats how *everyone* codes...you mean to say that a closed source product has the same guys writing and maintaining the software? The point is, the company has *experts* on that product, and they are paid to just solve problems, which is not guranteed when u contact ur friendly-neighbourhood hacker.
Anyway... lets get your *closed* software in the picture here. I want someone else to better and maintain it now. Will you as a previous vendor:
- Help me
- Give my new partner the sources
- Even if you do 1. and 2. what will my new partner get
help from the community? No. because the community doesn't know - the software was closed.
again..why the emphasis on sources? As a IT Manager, I'd be more interested in getting the problem solved than in whether I have the sources or not.And secondly, do u think only open source software has communities? I've received fantastic help on some closed source products that I use from communities of users - so whats so special? I think your passion for source code is blinding you from the heart of the problem - source code is just not important in some cases!
regards, kishor
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Sounds like you haven't had much development experience. Thats how programmers around the world code Free Software.
sure..thats how *everyone* codes...you mean to say that a closed source product has the same guys writing and maintaining the software?
no.
The point is, the company has *experts* on that product, and they are paid to just solve problems, which is not guranteed when u contact ur friendly-neighbourhood hacker.
agreed. But the same is not true of every company. I have seen products and services fall-apart due to as experts run for greener pastures.
Anyway... lets get your *closed* software in the picture here. I want someone else to better and maintain it now. Will you as a previous vendor:
- Help me
- Give my new partner the sources
- Even if you do 1. and 2. what will my new partner get
help from the community? No. because the community doesn't know - the software was closed.
again..why the emphasis on sources? As a IT Manager, I'd be more interested in getting the problem solved
than in
whether I have the sources or not.
so how do you solve my partially solved problem without knowing how it was solved partially.
And secondly, do u think
only open source software has communities? I've received fantastic help on some closed source products that I use from communities of users - so whats so special?
If you talking support in terms of click here... do this do that... run this command you'r lucky... you'll always find a community. But if I say this is my application... darn we were using it for so many years... our needs have changed... what do I do now - how many communities can you solicit.
I think your passion for source code is blinding you from the heart of the problem - source code is just not important in some cases!
Simplistically... every problem has a solution... sometimes many solutions.
The point I wanted to make was whether you'd like to pay someone to tie your shoelaces everytime or pay once and learn how to tie it. Again, thats assuming the fellow you hire to tie your lace really knows how to tie it well.
With something as abstract as customised software ensuring that your shoelaces get tied well is difficult. Plus, you also want to avoid vendor lock-in. So how do you deal with such a probem then?
Apply Free Software.
Warm wishes,
Amol Hatwar.
Amol Hatwar writes:
I'll remove the dislaimers for you... sign an SLA and give you express support. But for that you got to pay. And again, if you don't like me... you can get Vinayak in - plus you can give him all the sources I change for you.
..sure, if Vinayak is contactable, free, willing to come..and of course, he starts with first *understanding what all changes have been made and then diagnosing the problem and THEN finding a solution...does wonders for response time doesnt it? Time is money...enterprises will pay for support if their downtime costs are higher!
Is anything trickling in now?
*snip* Sounds like you haven't had much development experience. Thats how programmers around the world code Free Software.
Anyway... lets get your *closed* software in the picture here. I want someone else to better and maintain it now. Will you as a previous vendor:
- Help me
- Give my new partner the sources
- Even if you do 1. and 2. what will my new partner get help from the
community? No. because the community doesn't know - the software was closed.
Bottomline: I am on my own.
Can we close this thread plz. I suppose, it must be irritating the others. :(
************** Vinayak Hegde APGDST Student NCST-Juhu **************
----- Original Message ----- From: "kishor bhagwat" aaaaarrrgghhh@yahoo.com To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] [OT] Ignorance is bliss
and boy..is it good hardware! ever seen a blade server? I havent - but i hear they are real cool! ;-)
I have seen the pizza, half pizza servers from ibm, believe me, they are too cool. Blades are made by sun, which I am told is even thinner.
The module is just 3-4 inches thick, complete with hdd, 4 chips, memory, everything. Fits into a perfectly designed slot on the rack. You slide them in, they simply click in, with power points, connecters, nics, everything placed with precision engineering. {Pity I didnt ever work on those systems}
Some of them even has a type of built in fiber connecting various slots in the rack so that only one wire goes out of the rack to the main network and still connects all the pizzas/blades.
Regards Saswata
Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:
As for Network Computer, I think one hand it was badly marketed, and on the other hand, there was very little benefit of moving to that platform. The savings at each client was minimum and that power demand requirement added on the server side was too much. Sun based its NC strategy on "Anit-Microsoft" platform rather on user needs and benefits.
I believe the "network is the computer" will sooner or later come true. The reason is CPU time is becoming a commodity ( look @ Grid Computing ) and bandwidth costs are coming down slowly but surely.
--> Vinayak Hegde
----- Original Message ----- From: "Vinayak Hegde" vinayak_hegde@mail.softhome.net To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 12:03 AM Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] [OT] Ignorance is bliss
I believe the "network is the computer" will sooner or later come true. The reason is CPU time is becoming a commodity ( look @ Grid Computing ) and
bandwidth
costs are coming down slowly but surely.
My point is that with CPU cost coming down, HDD cost coming down, irrespective of bandwidth cost, what does the use get ? What is the benefit that will be derived in terms of money, efficiency, etc. by moving to NC ?
Regards Saswata
Saswata Banerjee & Associates writes:
My point is that with CPU cost coming down, HDD cost coming down, irrespective of bandwidth cost, what does the use get ? What is the benefit that will be derived in terms of money, efficiency, etc. by moving to NC ?
Regards Saswata
for most endusers it may not make a difference but for companies which have regular backend operations, it will make better sense outsourcing CPU cycles IMHO. Use of Cluster computing is on the rise due to precisely this reason. So backends will consist of Clusters/outsourced grids. We may start looking @ CPUcycles/computing power just like we look at electricity today.
************** Vinayak Hegde APGDST Student NCST-Juhu **************
----- Original Message ----- From: vinayak_hegde@softhome.net To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:56 PM Subject: [ILUG-BOM] Re: Network Computers [Earlier -- Ignorance is bliss]
Saswata Banerjee & Associates writes:
My point is that with CPU cost coming down, HDD cost coming down, irrespective of bandwidth cost, what does the use get ? What is the
benefit
that will be derived in terms of money, efficiency, etc. by moving to NC
?
Regards Saswata
for most endusers it may not make a difference but for companies which have regular backend operations, it will make better sense outsourcing CPU cycles IMHO. Use of Cluster computing is on the rise due to precisely this reason. So backends will consist of Clusters/outsourced grids.
*snip*
Vinayak, you missed the plus of one-place administration.
Amol Hatwar.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Amol Hatwar" rollacosta@phreaker.net To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] Re: Network Computers [Earlier -- Ignorance is bliss]
for most endusers it may not make a difference but for companies which have regular backend operations, it will make better sense outsourcing CPU cycles IMHO. Use of Cluster computing is on the rise due to
precisely
this reason. So backends will consist of Clusters/outsourced grids.
*snip*
Vinayak, you missed the plus of one-place administration.
One place administration still takes place under existing systems. Under windows (which I am familier with), you can use system policies set on each pc, combined with Zero Administration Kit on a central server gives you the ability to control and administration of all pcs on the network. In fact, at one of my client's office, the IT dept uses very tight windows system policies to ensure that the user does not change any important settings and cause problems for themselves and the IT dept who would have to rectify the problem.
I am sure similar facilities MUST be existing on unix and linux OSs. Since I have not worked extensively with these in enterprise envirionment, you guys must enlighten me on the subject.
Regards Saswata
Saswata Banerjee & Associates writes:
One place administration still takes place under existing systems. Under windows (which I am familier with), you can use system policies set on each pc, combined with Zero Administration Kit on a central server gives you the ability to control and administration of all pcs on the network.
[snip]
I am sure similar facilities MUST be existing on unix and linux OSs. Since I have not worked extensively with these in enterprise envirionment, you guys must enlighten me on the subject.
If you work with diskless sytems (dumb clients), you have complete control over what the clients use, the way they use what they are allowed to use etc. Also it is possible with non-diskless systems though it is possible to streamline the process of administration with diskless system as they is no HDD,printer,FDD,CDROM attached. Also they are extremely fast.
for more info, refer ltsp.sourceforge.net and http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Diskless-HOWTO.html
************** Vinayak Hegde APGDST Student NCST-Juhu **************
Saswata Banerjee & Associates writes:
One place administration still takes place under existing systems. Under windows (which I am familier with), you can use system policies set on
each
pc, combined with Zero Administration Kit on a central server gives you
the
ability to control and administration of all pcs on the network.
[chomp()] Saswata, there's a difference between propogating one configuration to different hosts from a central place... and keeping the the configuration in the central place.
Compare it with the telephone network... its the network thats intelligent... not the telephone. The *intelligent network* paradigm seems unavoidable because as users increase, propogation latencies will mean diiferent people have different settings at different times. Because the settings are at the client end... one may tweak or bypass them directly... (like many people in the US who make their cable modems work at highers speeds).
I think a thin-client and an intelligent network... that was the NC mission. For some time at Sun this was even the raison d'etre for the Java Language.
Regards,
Amol Hatwar.
I am sure similar facilities MUST be existing on unix and linux OSs. Since
I
have not worked extensively with these in enterprise envirionment, you
guys
must enlighten me on the subject.
*snip* So many distros... its difficult to propogate settings from one Linux system to another.... But then if you give it some thought... you could: 1. Make a daemon in C (I think redhat has one called rhnsd... it updates the system... but I dunno how exactly it works) 2. Make a clever Perl script. 3. Use rsync with a little Perl glue thrown-in in a subscribe/notify pattern.
The third option will require moderate hacking and will prove to be a good one. Does anyone else have anything better up his sleeve?
Warm wishses,
Amol Hatwar.
I wonder what the impact peer to peer technology will do to this segment. Already technology exists where idle / free cpu cycles on individual pcs can pooled to do large distributed computing work. Perhaps as this technology gets better, corporates may not mind having fat clients, since they can use that idle / extra power to do, say, payroll processing ? or something like OLAP Cube compilation / analysis.
Regards Saswata
----- Original Message ----- From: vinayak_hegde@softhome.net To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:56 PM Subject: [ILUG-BOM] Re: Network Computers [Earlier -- Ignorance is bliss]
Saswata Banerjee & Associates writes:
My point is that with CPU cost coming down, HDD cost coming down, irrespective of bandwidth cost, what does the use get ? What is the
benefit
that will be derived in terms of money, efficiency, etc. by moving to NC
?
Regards Saswata
for most endusers it may not make a difference but for companies which have regular backend operations, it will make better sense outsourcing CPU cycles IMHO. Use of Cluster computing is on the rise due to precisely this reason. So backends will consist of Clusters/outsourced grids. We may start looking @ CPUcycles/computing power just like we look at electricity today.
Vinayak Hegde APGDST Student NCST-Juhu
Saswata Banerjee & Associates writes:
I wonder what the impact peer to peer technology will do to this segment. Already technology exists where idle / free cpu cycles on individual pcs can pooled to do large distributed computing work. Perhaps as this technology gets better, corporates may not mind having fat clients, since they can use that idle / extra power to do, say, payroll processing ? or something like OLAP Cube compilation / analysis.
Regards Saswata
----- Original Message ----- From: vinayak_hegde@softhome.net To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:56 PM Subject: [ILUG-BOM] Re: Network Computers [Earlier -- Ignorance is bliss]
Saswata Banerjee & Associates writes:
My point is that with CPU cost coming down, HDD cost coming down, irrespective of bandwidth cost, what does the use get ? What is the
benefit
that will be derived in terms of money, efficiency, etc. by moving to NC
?
Regards Saswata
for most endusers it may not make a difference but for companies which have regular backend operations, it will make better sense outsourcing CPU cycles IMHO. Use of Cluster computing is on the rise due to precisely this reason. So backends will consist of Clusters/outsourced grids. We may start looking @ CPUcycles/computing power just like we look at electricity today.
You are right on the spot. Plans are already afoot in many corporates abroad to do exactly that. P2P is one of the competing technologies to the ones mentioned before. May the best technology win :) .
************** Vinayak Hegde APGDST Student NCST-Juhu **************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Amol Hatwar" rollacosta@phreaker.net To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 6:20 PM Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] [OT] Ignorance is bliss
The term .NET is confusing, you are refering to the passport and other services. Speaking technically correctly .NET is an initiative... that promises a lot of things. The Linux/Windows interoperability that I am talking of here is one of them.
DotNet is not just a strategy, it is also a family of products. It includes a set of 6 powerful (in comparison with earlier versions, at least), server software (System + Application) platforms. Passoport is one of the services (not product) which is, again, running on DotNet Server software platform. In fact, passport is a proof of concept for microsoft, apart from being another marketing tool to bind customers to microsoft in future. The idea was to provide the power and infrastructure that will be used in computing by corporates in future. They actually created a major problem for themselves by trying to use an "umbralla brand" and calling every thing DotNet, the strategy, services and products.
The move to port dotnet to linux platform is another version of the same
Like I said .NET is NOT a product that you install... its an initiative... comprising of a multitude of products and services. Porting... is some
other
question.
I was refering to the DotNet Server Software and the DotNet Framework including Microsoft Intermediate Language. These will ensure that all software designed for running on the dotnet server and those made with Microsoft Visual Studio .Net RAD tools will work on linux. Dont underestimate this move.
hedging......in case linux becomes more popular on the server front, software designed on dotnet platform will run even if the server is
running
linux, and the desktops are windows. Believe me, they will finalise and complete the codes to production level only if linux becomes too popular
at server level.......Otherwise, it will remain "experimental"
Which OS do you think has the upperhand in server markets now? :D
True, Linux has a lead in the server market, specially in large and very large applications, webservers, etc. But Windows is catching on faster than you realise. Futher, dont forget that there is another fast growing server market, which is servers used by (small, medium and large) enterprises for internal use and normal office operations. This is the one where microsoft is looking to grow. This is a market which is not a strong linux base as such.
You may want to know more about how GNU is replying and strengthening its ante at http://dotgnu.org
I have not doubt that GNU\Linux community is not sitting idle. But I dont think many people realise how fast MS is moving and also that corporate world is not in many cases (and unfortunately too) uninterested or scared to move to linux. (I plan to visit that site just now)
regards Saswata
----- Original Message -----
From: "Amol Hatwar" rollacosta@phreaker.net To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 6:20 PM Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] [OT] Ignorance is bliss
The term .NET is confusing, you are refering to the passport and other services. Speaking technically correctly .NET is an initiative... that promises a lot of things. The Linux/Windows interoperability that I am talking of here is one of them.
DotNet is not just a strategy, it is also a family of products. It
includes *snip* Right on... the products are to implement the strategy... and the strategy as I see it will ultimately evolve to hoodwink the users.
The move to port dotnet to linux platform is another version of the
same
Like I said .NET is NOT a product that you install... its an
initiative...
comprising of a multitude of products and services. Porting... is some
other
question.
I was refering to the DotNet Server Software and the DotNet Framework including Microsoft Intermediate Language. These will ensure that all software designed for running on the dotnet server and those made with Microsoft Visual Studio .Net RAD tools will work on linux.
Right on again... M$ wants to reap from the Linux market as well. Thats because they know they're strong on desktop products.... the M$ Office Suite for instance. They want to sell that to Linux users too. Its like a dual strategy. They want to replace our applications and then our OS as well.
hedging......in case linux becomes more popular on the server front, software designed on dotnet platform will run even if the server is
running
linux, and the desktops are windows. Believe me, they will finalise
and
complete the codes to production level only if linux becomes too
popular
at server level.......Otherwise, it will remain "experimental"
Which OS do you think has the upperhand in server markets now? :D
True, Linux has a lead in the server market, specially in large and very large applications, webservers, etc. But Windows is catching on faster
than
you realise. Futher, dont forget that there is another fast growing server market, which is servers used by (small, medium and large) enterprises for internal use and normal office operations.
M$ = Desktop! This is what I conclude from the various reports I have been reading from Gartner. It is true that M$ wants to move higher up... but they know they aren't simply up to it. Here are the reasons why: 1. Security 2. Simplicity 3. Performance 4. Efficiency 5. Openness (Even if they capture the first 4.. they'll never get here)
This is the one where microsoft
is looking to grow. This is a market which is not a strong linux base as such.
On the other side large corporates are helping smaller partners to get on to GNU/Linux for purposes of more homogeneous integration. And the M$s journey up-stream will be difficult if not impossible.
Regards,
Amol Hatwar.
Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:
The term .NET is confusing, you are refering to the passport and other services. Speaking technically correctly .NET is an initiative... that promises a lot of things. The Linux/Windows interoperability that I am talking of here is one of them.
software (System + Application) platforms. Passoport is one of the services (not product) which is, again, running on DotNet Server software platform. In fact, passport is a proof of concept for microsoft, apart from being another marketing tool to bind customers to microsoft in future. The idea
I doubt whether the idea of passport will catch up. It will be like putting all your eggs in one basket. Lots of people will oppose it due to privacy concerns.
---> Vinayak Hegde
:-) How many people even understand privacy ? How many are concerned ? How many people in normal computer end users even think of what happens to the data they give or send on internet ?
Privacy issue is in limelight only because a part of the vocal minority has made it an issue in the US. In the end, if there is no good alternate to passport, most of the people will move to us, thanks to convinience. Privacy be damned and forgotten.
Regads Saswata
----- Original Message ----- From: "Vinayak Hegde" vinayak_hegde@mail.softhome.net To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 12:08 AM Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] [OT] Ignorance is bliss
Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:
The term .NET is confusing, you are refering to the passport and other services. Speaking technically correctly .NET is an initiative... that promises a lot of things. The Linux/Windows interoperability that I am talking of here is one of them.
software (System + Application) platforms. Passoport is one of the
services
(not product) which is, again, running on DotNet Server software
platform.
In fact, passport is a proof of concept for microsoft, apart from being another marketing tool to bind customers to microsoft in future. The idea
I doubt whether the idea of passport will catch up. It will be like putting all your eggs in one basket. Lots of people will oppose it due to privacy concerns.
---> Vinayak Hegde
Saswata Banerjee & Associates writes:
How many people even understand privacy ? How many are concerned ? How many people in normal computer end users even think of what happens to the data they give or send on internet ?
Privacy issue is in limelight only because a part of the vocal minority has made it an issue in the US. In the end, if there is no good alternate to passport, most of the people will move to us, thanks to convinience. Privacy be damned and forgotten.
Regads Saswata
Lots of people do. You don't want someone else to have access to your personal data. Just imagine the scenario when someone is tracking all that you have bought on the net and come to know that your fav artist is Pink Floyd or Dire Straits. This info is discreetly passed onto a music CD site. The next time you logon to your fav music cd site, the price of a PF or DS cd will be higher than it is for other people. Don't think this is possible, DoubleClick the banner AD company tried to do exactly that. This was just a simple example. What else can happen is left to your imagination. Be paranoid.Be very paranoid. They are coming after you. lol ;)
If people are not concerned they will have to be concerned. I agree that awareness level is low. But sooner or later, this will change.
As for all of us, we will have to choose between convenience and safeguarding your privacy. After all we know what M$ (M$ bashing!!! :) ) as well as most other corporates are capable of doing.
************** Vinayak Hegde APGDST Student NCST-Juhu **************
:-) How many people even understand privacy ? How many are concerned ? How many people in normal computer end users even think of what happens to the data they give or send on internet ?
Privacy issue is in limelight only because a part of the vocal minority
has
made it an issue in the US. In the end, if there is no good alternate to passport,
*snip*
Saswata dotGNU does promise a single sign-on service just like passport.
Warm wishes,
Amol Hatwar.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Amol Hatwar" rollacosta@phreaker.net To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 7:34 PM Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] [OT] Ignorance is bliss
Saswata dotGNU does promise a single sign-on service just like passport.
What is the organisation that will hold the data, etc. Also, they will have to get the merchant companies (sellers) to sign on for the service, else the customers cannot use it. That is the big fight between passport and liberty aliance. Whoever has more merchants and volumes will have more customer loyalty (and therefore, money)
Can you give me a link to the details for dotGNU ?
Regards Saswata
Saswata Banerjee & Associates writes:
Can you give me a link to the details for dotGNU ?
************** Vinayak Hegde APGDST Student NCST-Juhu **************
Sorry, the link has been given earlier, but for some inexpliable reason, all emails in my ILUG folder got deleted. Just cant figure out why that happened. So I missed the fact that the link was earlier given.
Regards Saswata
----- Original Message ----- From: vinayak_hegde@softhome.net To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 10:53 AM Subject: [ILUG-BOM] Re: Ignorance is bliss
Saswata Banerjee & Associates writes:
Can you give me a link to the details for dotGNU ?
Vinayak Hegde APGDST Student NCST-Juhu
Connected with the same topic actually,
If we manage to convince one of our clients to move at least partially to linux, how can ILUG help them ?
I am talking about companies falling between small and mid-sized companies in service industry. Say with 150-200 people working for them ? Can we promise such people help in moving to Linux and help in solving problems that they face ?
Companies like these are not the ones who can use help from usenet or such things.
I have been telling my clients that Linux is a good platform to move to, specially since it does not make sense to pay huge amounts for official windows software. I have also told them that the platform is very stable, meaning that once installed, unless you fiddle with things, it will work trouble free for years. But they are still worried about whether they will be able to cope up with problems that they may face. (Neither can they afford to have expensive tech-support contracts)
Regards Saswata
Connected with the same topic actually,
If we manage to convince one of our clients to move at least partially to linux, how can ILUG help them ?
Maybe we should try this area as well. What say people. The best way to prove your ability is by DOING IT.
I am talking about companies falling between small and mid-sized companies in service industry. Say with 150-200 people working for them ? Can we promise such people help in moving to Linux and help in solving problems that they face ?
*snip*
I am thinking of starting a Consulting company that will do only GNU/Linux and M$ to GNU/Linux migration. And I am looking for willing customers...
Saswata where can I get in touch with you regarding this?
Warm wishes,
Amol Hatwar.