I was requested to forward this. If Vid has been moderated for defending women's rights, it is a sad thing and a blow against freedom. ---------- Forwarded Message ----------
Subject: Everything is fine [was] threads [was] [OT] Invitation to connect on LinkedIn Date: Wednesday 18 February 2009 From: VidAyer vid@svaksha.com To: Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org, Easwar Hariharan meindian523@gmail.com, Harsh Busa harsh.busa@gmail.com
Hello,
Request, could one of you please forward this "verbatim" to the ILUG-BOM list since I am on moderation. Thanks.
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Rajeev R. K. rajeevrk@gmail.com wrote:
Firstly, Dinesh, If you have to insult anyone ever, even if provocation is provided, it's a sad thing. it's a really poor communicator who cannot make his displeasure known without
stooping to
insults. A witty and sarcastic barb is much better, IMHO. And i wouldn't wish a virus on anyone. And
VidAyer,
I guess you are bing a little belligerent... This thread need not have gone on this long, should have died long ago, and you know it.
Well, at least it managed to wake me up :)
Glad you did :) The thread and the responses is recurrent in most Indian LUG's and I can summarize them here :
1. Shutup and move on. I've heard that before Rajeev and its exactly what i did some years ago, went upstream to contribute and be more productive. It works just fine.
2. Local Lugs? Zilch. Nada. Nothing to see in your local LUG. (and this comes from men who contribute code, men who I've spoken to IRL, wrote to me off-list and what snippets from IRC).
3. Denial. "Nothing is wrong. Everything is fine here (read LUG)". Get labelled "belligerent", "militant feminist", etc .. (and i have logs collected over the years to prove this) because you called out a bully and said "stop bullying". Nice !! Women don't participate in LUG activities? Cant blame them, I would'nt either.
4. Crass humour. You said the same above with "A witty and sarcastic barb is much better, IMHO". Object and one gets a response : "It was a joke! Don't you have a sense of humour?". The gate-keepers are more intent on protecting "freedom of speech" for loud-mouths who have turned nastiness into an art form.
5. I'm a Geek. I'm first, you came in later. Remain in your place, woman !! This is a *our* space and you (women) have to be thick-skinned to tolerate bullying, name calling, intimidation, online stalking and personal attacks, usually indulged in by a very small subset of highly vocal individual(s). Never openly and always subtle.
6. Ignore. Another way to say #3.Everything is fine here. You are the problem.
7. Take it off-list. Another easy way to make it more difficult for her to prove she is being harassed since private conversations are just that. Private. Maintain the dense cloud of ambiguity.
8. Open. Our community already has <insert token number> women who are doing just great. The rest dont bother to show up, participate, make the effort. Something is wrong with the majority.
9. Celebrate boorish behaviour. Rinse. Repeat.
Result : Why waste time jumping over loops. Easier to stay away.
Libre software does *not* demand contribution from all. Those who do volunteer, do it because they care or want to. You dont need to recognise that but telling them to "shutup" and "ignore problems" is neither polite nor helpful. And this "staying away" is not restricted to women and has nothing to do with gender. Men stay away too. Folks can adopt an ostrich-like attitude, because Everything_IS_Fine, really !!
Thanks for all the fish !! Vid, .. who un-subscribes, yet again.
-------------------------------------------------------
On Wednesday 18 Feb 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
I was requested to forward this. If Vid has been moderated for defending women's rights, it is a sad thing and a blow against freedom.
She was moderated for failing to voluntarily stop a flamewar. Nothing to do with women's rights, and no need to bring that particular issue into this discussion.
*waiting for ad hominem*
-- Raju
On Wednesday 18 February 2009 14:39:26 Raj Mathur wrote:
On Wednesday 18 Feb 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
I was requested to forward this. If Vid has been moderated for defending women's rights, it is a sad thing and a blow against freedom.
She was moderated for failing to voluntarily stop a flamewar.
there are just flame wars - and inconsequential ones. I personally feel that *any* moderation is unjustified and against freedom. She was standing up to what she perceived as sexist bullying - and when one stands up to bullies one cannot be all that restrained and polite.
Nothing to do with women's rights, and no need to bring that particular issue into this discussion.
unfortunately that *is* the issue.
On Wednesday 18 Feb 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Wednesday 18 February 2009 14:39:26 Raj Mathur wrote:
[Vid] was moderated for failing to voluntarily stop a flamewar.
there are just flame wars - and inconsequential ones. I personally feel that *any* moderation is unjustified and against freedom. She was standing up to what she perceived as sexist bullying - and when one stands up to bullies one cannot be all that restrained and polite.
Sexist? The discussion was purely between males until the time Vid stepped in. I challenge anyone not irredeemably insane to make one male flaming another into a sexist issue.
The first time sexism and women's rights came into the picture was when Vid /gratuitously/ introduced those topics into the discussion. If she hadn't they still wouldn't be part of the thread.
Nothing to do with women's rights, and no need to bring that particular issue into this discussion.
unfortunately that *is* the issue.
I once met a person from Bihar who had been oppressed by his landlord. Not only that, he was also from a Scheduled Tribe. I gave him Rs 100 to help him out. Now by disagreeing with me you are oppressing the downtrodden masses of this country and trying to convert India into an elitist state.
See? Now the issue is totally different, let's discuss human rights, forest development and the fate of Indian tribals. And if you don't see things from my narrow point of view, you are capitalist scum who's hollowing the country from within for your purely personal gains.
</sarcasm for those terminally humour- and perspective-challenged>
Regards,
-- Raju
2009/2/18 Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org:
I was requested to forward this. If Vid has been moderated for defending women's rights, it is a sad thing and a blow against freedom.
She was not put on moderation. I've confirmed with others, and nobody received a pending moderation request from Mailman. So, the remark that she is moderated is incorrect.
Anurag
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:56 AM, Anurag anurag@gnuer.org wrote:
She was not put on moderation. I've confirmed with others, and nobody received a pending moderation request from Mailman. So, the remark that she is moderated is incorrect.
Now can I ridicule her for being incompetent or will I be accused of being a sexist?
@VidAyer, ROTFLMAO, LOLZ LOLZ LOLZ pWn34!!!111
^^^^^^ This is what trolls do FYKI.
On Wednesday 18 February 2009 15:26:05 Anurag wrote:
2009/2/18 Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org:
I was requested to forward this. If Vid has been moderated for defending women's rights, it is a sad thing and a blow against
freedom.
She was not put on moderation. I've confirmed with others, and
nobody
received a pending moderation request from Mailman. So, the remark that she is moderated is incorrect.
that is why I said 'if she has been put under moderation' anyway she thought she had been moderated and has left. It is a pity.
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 5:13 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
that is why I said 'if she has been put under moderation' anyway she thought she had been moderated and has left. It is a pity.
It was her incompetence ( guilty conscience? ) that she "thought" she was moderated. I'm sure she'll make an example out of this event to once again showcase to the world how a woman was "prevented" entry into a LUG. I'm sure she'll gain a lot of political mileage for her cause.
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 3:59 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
I was requested to forward this. If Vid has been moderated for defending women's rights, it is a sad thing and a blow against freedom.
Kenneth this is a *sad* day. Womens rights? Stop making an issue out of a non-issue. I have *politely* explained what my points were and where this society is heading because of minority politics and discrimination. You have circumvented the restrictions that the admin put in place for a reason. Atleast I had the decency to shut up when I was asked by the admin.
Ms.Ayer's behavior amply proves my point.
- Denial. "Nothing is wrong. Everything is fine here (read LUG)". Get
labelled "belligerent", "militant feminist", etc .. (and i have logs collected over the years to prove this) because you called out a bully and said "stop bullying". Nice !! Women don't participate in LUG activities? Cant blame them, I would'nt either.
I dont wish to reveal my personal life in a public mailing list but Ms.Ayer my friends are primarily women. Some of them are ignorant, some of them are very broad minded unlike you. You want to homogenize the society as you see fit. Try living in harmony with everybody for a change.
intent on protecting "freedom of speech" for loud-mouths who have turned nastiness into an art form.
Classic example of name calling. Just because people dont side with you ( which apparently isn't the case here ) you indulge in name calling? "Loud mouths" like me know when to shut up and respect other peoples opinions. But one cannot remain passive as someone starts to encroach and divide the very community that I've come to like.
And circumventing the admin's restrictions shows how much you respect the laws here. You know, it wont do you any harm if you respect other people instead of calling them names and provoking them. Though I'm very young, I've been in the community for a long long time. That doesn't automatically grant me a right to belittle anybody ( and notice I have *not* ). Similarly, just because you're a woman doesn't grant you *any* extra rights. I believe in equality and tolerance. Develop some and dont get carried away by the wrong kind of feminist propaganda. I have seen n00bs, newbies and I know when to help someone and when to tell someone to RTFM. I go out of my way to help people when I know they're genuine.
Regarding a post in one of the other threads, I cared to check out the OP's website ( because I was curious and wanted to know what this person's background was ). When I saw an article blatantly copy pasted I was furious. I'm all for open knowledge and sharing but there is simply *no* excuse to plagiarize content.
Did you care to do your homework? *NO* Instead you blatantly attack me.
- I'm a Geek. I'm first, you came in later. Remain in your place,
woman !! This is a *our* space and you (women) have to be thick-skinned to tolerate bullying, name calling, intimidation, online stalking and personal attacks, usually indulged in by a very small subset of highly vocal individual(s). Never openly and always subtle.
Hahahaha... Thats because you want to perceive the community that way. If you've not noticed people have supported you. Some have remained neutral and some had smart ass comments to make. Why are you taking this to the extreme? You're trying to portray me as a stalker and some kind of a criminal which I am *NOT*. Time and again I've said this, I treat everybody equally. If you cant take it be happy in your "polite" community. I did *not* come into *your* community and pick a fight, did I?
You called me a Neanderthal, a troll, an abuser and accused me of several thing that I am not. Please check the credentials of the person before you accuse him.
- Take it off-list. Another easy way to make it more difficult for
her to prove she is being harassed since private conversations are just that. Private. Maintain the dense cloud of ambiguity.
No it is not difficult for you to prove that you're being harassed. If you're such a geek then use PKI and force everyone communicating with you to use the same if they wish to talk with you. You have the non-repudiation that you want. Do you have the guts to do that? Nah... dont think so. You need a lesson in tolerance. Dont think you can just go anywhere and change people the way *you* see fit.
I am vocal about my opinions and I am always prepared to change them in the light of new facts.
neither polite nor helpful.
Stop with the slogan! I know you're all about being polite and helpful. Were you polite when you attacked me and provoked such responses? Do you live by your own principles?
Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 3:59 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
I was requested to forward this. If Vid has been moderated for defending women's rights, it is a sad thing and a blow against freedom.
Kenneth this is a *sad* day. Womens rights? Stop making an issue out of a non-issue. I have *politely* explained what my points were and where this society is heading because of minority politics and discrimination. You have circumvented the restrictions that the admin put in place for a reason. Atleast I had the decency to shut up when I was asked by the admin.
As a neutral observer may I add a few bits and bytes. The first provocation came from the lady and until the feminist issue came up I did not know it was a lady. Given DJ's nature ( a tail as straight as 'jalebi' ) he simply gave back and both refused to back off. DJ does not discriminate who he insults and he does it equally to all. The feminism issue was unnecessarily brought up, though if Ms. Aiyer was offended by the 'my dear' comment, DJ could offer his regrets large heartedly, only for this comment as I am sure he did not mean anything bad.
And Dinesh, you are a very talented and intelligent individual. To add to that, the fire inside you gives you an aggression that is a plus point. The raw energy inside you is like a powerful engine. You could add two wheels to it and turn it into a powerbike that zooms across the street with a blaring horn, scaring people on the streets, brushing against them. Or you could add four wheels, a carriage and some seats and turn it into a bus that not only takes you ahead but also ferries others to their destination. Thats the community spirit.
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
As a neutral observer may I add a few bits and bytes. The first provocation came from the lady and until the feminist issue came up I did not know it was a lady. Given DJ's nature ( a tail as straight as 'jalebi' ) he simply gave back and both refused to back off. DJ does not discriminate who he insults and he does it equally to all. The feminism issue was unnecessarily brought up, though if Ms. Aiyer was offended by the 'my dear' comment, DJ could offer his regrets large heartedly, only for this comment as I am sure he did not mean anything bad.
And Dinesh, you are a very talented and intelligent individual. To add to that, the fire inside you gives you an aggression that is a plus point. The raw energy inside you is like a powerful engine. You could add two wheels to it and turn it into a powerbike that zooms across the street with a blaring horn, scaring people on the streets, brushing against them. Or you could add four wheels, a carriage and some seats and turn it into a bus that not only takes you ahead but also ferries others to their destination. Thats the community spirit.
Thanks Rony. I didn't know who this VidAyer person was until she provoked me. Frankly I have not been replying to threads in this list for quite some time.
Sorry for the longish post, but here are my thoughts.
Today a lot of attention is being given to issues involving minorities. Please note the words I'm using because I am *careful* while choosing them. Some of these minorities have been given too many privileges under the guise of helping them. In reality these privileges dont accomplish anything but to create discontent and partition the society. The feminist movements and many other movements including the one started by our revered Dr.Babasaheb Ambedkar were meant to give *means* for equal opportunity for minorities. What has happened to the society? These movements had really honorable intentions.
For quite some time now these movements have been twisted into something really horrible a classic example is our quota raj. An open seat male student has less than 5% seats to compete for. Rest are reserved. Is that fair to us? No. Is it being misused? Yes. Under the guise of promoting technical education amongst women, they've been given ~30% reservation. What good has this brought? Women still compete for those 5% seats just to show they're equals. Thats total BS because they cost seats to some really deserving candidates. This is the state of affairs in education.
Arjun Singh, Renuka Chaudhary and such politicians should be punished for creating disharmony amongst our population. Its a social crime and they should be probably sent to the gallows. I feel pretty strongly about such issues so maybe I'm being too harsh. I remember watching Karan Thapar literally screw the new absurd laws that shes brought into the legal system under the pretext of protecting womens and childrens rights. He countered every absurdity of hers and she simply refused to answer.
When I see people like Ms.Ayer promote such nonsense under the guise of helping women I can be only appalled that well educated women have bought into stupid political gimmicks that these politicians pull. For example, the pink chaddi campaign. On 15th February there was a front page news that Ram Sene members harassed women who couriered pink chaddis to their office. It was a juvenile attempt at getting back at Ram Sene activists. The women who couriered the packages were actually stupid enough to write their phone numbers on the packages ( or that is what they wanted so that they could use the harassment as a charge later on. ). When they got obscene calls they complained to the police and charged Ram Sene with harassment. Just appalling. I'm not a supporter of Ram Sene but I'm just showing how dumb people really are. If they felt so strongly against Ram Sene, there a perfectly good legal system in our country which they can approach and actually get these people ( Ram Sene ) banned for creating communal disharmony. Women empowerment is something that people like Ms.Ayer dont understand at all.
I know a certain lady who works at a women's university and is being constantly harassed at her work place by her juniors and superiors for no fault of her own. Every single one of them is a woman. Politicians such as Renuka Chaudhary, Arjun Singh or our revered president Ms.Pratibha Patil dont care about people, they just want to play minority politics.
Take the situation of women in Africa and villages of India. While you're sitting comfy in your AC room these women are being exploited and are facing hardships due to a lot of socio-economic reasons. Does Ms.Ayer care? If shes such a big feminist and feels strongly about women's issues she should migrate to remote villages and see the real issues that surround our society and try to help there.
I can call in any number of my friends who will swear by the fact that I'm positive and I provide encouragement and help as and when needed to all my friends irrespective of their race, gender, beliefs, sexual orientation or whatever attributes make up an individual. I dont go around flaunting the fact that I I'm an admin at XYZ place or what I've done in my life.
I am a *staunch* supporter of certain issues and I cannot emphasize enough how strongly I feel about these issues. If I see something wrong happening I strongly oppose it out in the open. I know this list is composed of not less than a 1000 members. Let me ask you guys this question, if tomorrow you're rejected for a job or funding or whatever opportunity that you need/want desperately based on some XYZ characteristic, what then? How would you feel?
People who're silent and have not spoken out against the nonsense that is being spread should experience how it feels to be discriminated. Lets see how you people react then.
Lastly, there are several reasons that I have loved the GNU philosophy. I am also a supporter of certain values imbibed in Hinduism and Buddhism. These values all say the same thing - "Live and let live".
The country my forefathers had envisioned was a democratic one where everyone had an equal right to live and express themselves. If I'm impolite, rude and curt I have just the same right as the person next to me who may be super polite. Don't try to make everyone behave just the same, frankly, the world would be a BORING place to live in and we as a civilization would become extinct for the lack of diversity.
Learn to live peacefully and in harmony with others.
I haven't read your message, but you clearly do not want to stop being controversial after repeated requests. I would suggest that you show some restraint.
Request members not to contribute to this flamewar, and only participate if they have something meaningful to say. No more mails from Dinesh Joshi will be accepted for the time being. Dinesh, please complain to linuxers-owner@mm.glug-bom.org if you think this is wrong.
thanks Anurag
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 3:47 PM, Anurag anurag@gnuer.org wrote:
I haven't read your message, but you clearly do not want to stop being controversial after repeated requests. I would suggest that you show some restraint.
Request members not to contribute to this flamewar, and only participate if they have something meaningful to say. No more mails from Dinesh Joshi will be accepted for the time being. Dinesh, please complain to linuxers-owner@mm.glug-bom.org if you think this is wrong.
Nah thats fine. You should read the post before you take action, really.
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 2:53 AM, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
Nah thats fine. You should read the post before you take action, really.
How this mail came to list?
On Thursday 19 Feb 2009, Anurag wrote:
I haven't read your message, but you clearly do not want to stop being controversial after repeated requests. I would suggest that you show some restraint.
Request members not to contribute to this flamewar, and only participate if they have something meaningful to say. No more mails from Dinesh Joshi will be accepted for the time being. Dinesh, please complain to linuxers-owner@mm.glug-bom.org if you think this is wrong.
May I ask why DAJ has been put on moderation?
He is making valid, cogent arguments in response to queries (and flames) that other list members have specifically been addressing to him. You and I may or may not agree with his point of view, but it is as valid or invalid as any other. To me, at least, DAJ comes across as a person holding a currently politically unpopular viewpoint, which has been repeatedly questioned, and making reasonable arguments for that POV. He does NOT come across as a person trumpeting a POV without provocation just for the sake of controversy.
If you want him to shut up I'd suggest moderating everyone in this thread (including me), since we are the ones who have been providing reasons for DAJ to continue the thread. Each of his mails has been in response to personal comments about his POV or his personality -- if that were directed at me I wouldn't stay shut either, and I'm renowned as a thoughtful, moderate contributor to mailing lists ;)
I'm not a great fan of DAJ (I've had differences of opinion with him on this list in the past), but I do believe that the moderation is an excessive action to contain him. Consequently I'm inviting Mr Joshi to send me any mails that he wants to post to the list, which I shall sporadically forward to the list (until I'm put on moderation too). I shall also be glad to forward his responses to the RMS-style mails that have been questioning the validity of his sentence structure and choice of words to refer to an entity.
Of course, if DAJ's moderation is because his POV is politically incorrect and not acceptable to the utopian homogeneous society that this list is aiming for, I have nothing more to say except to wish the list owners the best of luck.
Regards,
-- Raju
On Thursday 19 February 2009 12:02:44 Raj Mathur wrote:
On Thursday 19 Feb 2009, Anurag wrote:
I haven't read your message, but you clearly do not want to stop being controversial after repeated requests. I would suggest that
you
show some restraint.
Request members not to contribute to this flamewar, and only participate if they have something meaningful to say. No more mails from Dinesh Joshi will be accepted for the time being. Dinesh,
please
complain to linuxers-owner@mm.glug-bom.org if you think this is wrong.
May I ask why DAJ has been put on moderation?
me too - moderation is not called for.
2009/2/19 Raj Mathur raju@linux-delhi.org:
Of course, if DAJ's moderation is because his POV is politically incorrect and not acceptable to the utopian homogeneous society that this list is aiming for, I have nothing more to say except to wish the list owners the best of luck.
I would like to clarify that the decision was taken after consulting everyone on linuxers-owner alias.
The only thing we wanted to achieve is to douse the flames. I'm very sure topics on Karan Thapar interviewing Renuka do not belong to this list. We've received complaints from list members that they do not appreciate the current situation on the list.
But if people want to continue these threads, then I'm happy to step aside and apologize to everyone.
Anurag
2009/2/18 Raj Mathur raju@linux-delhi.org:
May I ask why DAJ has been put on moderation?
He is making valid, cogent arguments in response to queries (and flames) that other list members have specifically been addressing to him. You and I may or may not agree with his point of view, but it is as valid or invalid as any other. To me, at least, DAJ comes across as a person holding a currently politically unpopular viewpoint, which has been repeatedly questioned, and making reasonable arguments for that POV. He does NOT come across as a person trumpeting a POV without provocation just for the sake of controversy.
+1
I also had disagreements with DAJ in the past and engaged in flamewars with him. But I do not agree with moderating here. As long as people address him and reply him, he has a right to respond to that. As long as people are engaging with him, he has every right to respond. If you don't want to see more mails, don't address him. If other members address him, that means they want a response and you cannot put DAJ under moderation, unless you put all members addressing him aslo under moderation.
I don't agree with everything he says, but I stand with for his right to speak up, his position when people ask him.
- Praveen
List,
On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 3:27 AM, Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com wrote:
2009/2/18 Raj Mathur raju@linux-delhi.org:
May I ask why DAJ has been put on moderation?
He is making valid, cogent arguments in response to queries (and flames) that other list members have specifically been addressing to him. You and I may or may not agree with his point of view, but it is as valid or invalid as any other. To me, at least, DAJ comes across as a person holding a currently politically unpopular viewpoint, which has been repeatedly questioned, and making reasonable arguments for that POV. He does NOT come across as a person trumpeting a POV without provocation just for the sake of controversy.
+1
I also had disagreements with DAJ in the past and engaged in flamewars with him. But I do not agree with moderating here. As long as people address him and reply him, he has a right to respond to that. As long as people are engaging with him, he has every right to respond. If you don't want to see more mails, don't address him. If other members address him, that means they want a response and you cannot put DAJ under moderation, unless you put all members addressing him aslo under moderation.
I don't agree with everything he says, but I stand with for his right to speak up, his position when people ask him.
It's time the list admins/mods POV is made clear and the actions taken by us here.
We have put Dinesh Joshi on moderation after warning him and Vidya (Please note the lack of qualifier like Mr./Ms. etc). He continued to disregard the warning issued by Anurag and kept writing irrelevant mails in violations of the list guidelines.
As for the Vidya, we consider his/her behavior conceited and creepy. Her "assumption" that she was put on moderation and then unsubscribeing from the list by accusing list admins/mods of moderation does not speak well for her. Even more disgusting behavior is participating in the list discussion by use of "proxies".
In this regard even those proxies and middlemen have acted in violation of the list guidelines by posting non-member mails to the list. Please consider this as warning for these middlemen and proxies. Such behavior in future will attract moderation.
We - list admins and moderators - request again you all list members to abide by the list guidelines and maintain decency and decorum while participating in the discussions.
Please remember that with Freedom comes Responsibility. If you can not be responsible be prepared to loose your freedom. Take your pick.
- Praveen
With regards,
Dinesh Shah (????? ???/????? ???) wrote:
List,
It's time the list admins/mods POV is made clear and the actions taken by us here.
We have put Dinesh Joshi on moderation after warning him and Vidya (Please note the lack of qualifier like Mr./Ms. etc). He continued to disregard the warning issued by Anurag and kept writing irrelevant mails in violations of the list guidelines.
As for the Vidya, we consider his/her behavior conceited and creepy. Her "assumption" that she was put on moderation and then unsubscribeing from the list by accusing list admins/mods of moderation does not speak well for her. Even more disgusting behavior is participating in the list discussion by use of "proxies".
In this regard even those proxies and middlemen have acted in violation of the list guidelines by posting non-member mails to the list. Please consider this as warning for these middlemen and proxies. Such behavior in future will attract moderation.
We - list admins and moderators - request again you all list members to abide by the list guidelines and maintain decency and decorum while participating in the discussions.
Please remember that with Freedom comes Responsibility. If you can not be responsible be prepared to loose your freedom. Take your pick.
+1.
Sometimes when we are in a heated flame war, we cannot think straight and we forget that we _could_ be walking into a trap. Off late there appear to be attempts to sabotage this list through perpetual flaming. The sudden spurt of networking site invitations is more than just a co-incidence.
The best way for members to tackle these threats is by keeping a cool head and look at the larger picture and the responsibility on each ones' shoulders to make this GLUG the best one that ever is.
On Friday 20 February 2009 17:37:46 Dinesh Shah (દિનેશ શાહ/दिनेश शाह) wrote:
It's time the list admins/mods POV is made clear and the actions taken by us here.
is this your individual take on the list admin POV or has the draft of this been approved by all/majority of admins?
2009/2/20 Dinesh Shah (દિનેશ શાહ/दिनेश शाह) dineshah@gmail.com:
As for the Vidya, we consider his/her behavior conceited and creepy. Her "assumption" that she was put on moderation and then unsubscribeing from the list by accusing list admins/mods of
members,
don't take any word of the admins at the face value. Unless they take actions, don't worry about it. Because they have been using scare tactics and later claim they did not do any of what they said they would do. It is like those days of the Indian Cricket team, when you are not sure if India will win, till the game is over, even if they are playing Bangladesh or Kenya.
moderation does not speak well for her. Even more disgusting behavior is participating in the list discussion by use of "proxies".
If anyone wants threatened by the admins/members, I might be a proxy too, until they actually put me under moderation.
In this regard even those proxies and middlemen have acted in violation of the list guidelines by posting non-member mails to the list. Please consider this as warning for these middlemen and proxies. Such behavior in future will attract moderation.
Continue forwarding mails untill you are actually put under moderation, because apparantly you can't take admin's word for it.
- Praveen
On Saturday 21 February 2009 12:49:32 Praveen A wrote:
In this regard even those proxies and middlemen have acted in violation of the list guidelines by posting non-member mails to the list. Please consider this as warning for these middlemen and proxies. Such behavior in future will attract moderation.
Continue forwarding mails untill you are actually put under moderation, because apparantly you can't take admin's word for it.
especially as one of the guys who forwarded one of her mails is an admin
Praveen A wrote:
2009/2/20 Dinesh Shah (દિનેશ શાહ/दिनेश शाह) dineshah@gmail.com:
As for the Vidya, we consider his/her behavior conceited and creepy. Her "assumption" that she was put on moderation and then unsubscribeing from the list by accusing list admins/mods of
members,
[snip]
Continue forwarding mails untill you are actually put under moderation, because apparantly you can't take admin's word for it.
- Praveen
err.. what is the purpose of this mail? how is it associated with GNU/Linux? Why do you need proxies when you can always re-subscribe and send mail (that is, *if one thinks* one has been moderated and their words are essential to the existence of this list's members or the whole world for that matter)? Not to mention even sending mail from the same id and waiting for the moderator's decision is a pretty sane way to go, that someone has already exhibited here!
IMHO, for pet peeves, there does not exist any public list, at least no LUG mailing list; rather one should look forward to close friends or psychiatrists for such matters!
If the goal here is the said world record, go ahead, my best wishes to the list.
KM
2009/2/20 Kamal kamaleshwar.morjal@gmail.com:
err.. what is the purpose of this mail? how is it associated with GNU/Linux?
Why do you respond to such mails then? When you respond to such mails _you_ are also becoming a participant. You can't exclude yourself from such blame.
Why do you need proxies when you can always re-subscribe and send mail (that is, *if one thinks* one has been moderated and their words are essential to the existence of this list's members or the whole world
Then what is the point of moderation?
for that matter)? Not to mention even sending mail from the same id and waiting for the moderator's decision is a pretty sane way to go, that someone has already exhibited here!
It is for every individual to decide. If one feel he/she is unjustly put under moderation, then why should he/she follow the unjust rules? On top of that, if other members and admins also think it is unjust and agree to be a proxy, it is fair game. In fact, it is a standard pratice in many lists including debian, to forward mails of moderated members (recent case of Sven Luther an example - he was banned from all debian lists, but other members were allowed to forward his mails).
IMHO, for pet peeves, there does not exist any public list, at least no LUG mailing list; rather one should look forward to close friends or psychiatrists for such matters!
Sorry, I did not understand this.
If the goal here is the said world record, go ahead, my best wishes to the list.
_You_ are also helping make that record. Now atleast two mails (yours and mine, may be other replies too) you contributed. You can't have the cake and eat it too. Either you remain silent or be a part of the world record.
-Praveen
Enough, already! There's more to life than these petty issues, so please stop beating them to beyond death.
If you need to focus your energies on something, please try a more constructive approach, like discussing how to convince a corporate IT dept. To allow you to use Linux on your laptop (ours even considers GPLed programs unauthorized / illegal). But if you do, please do so in a new thread.
This one has been 'used' by many approaches that can safely be suffixed with 'nazi'.
There, I said it. It should die now.
On 2/21/09, Praveen A pravi.a@gmail.com wrote:
2009/2/20 Kamal kamaleshwar.morjal@gmail.com:
err.. what is the purpose of this mail? how is it associated with GNU/Linux?
Why do you respond to such mails then? When you respond to such mails _you_ are also becoming a participant. You can't exclude yourself from such blame.
Why do you need proxies when you can always re-subscribe and send mail (that is, *if one thinks* one has been moderated and their words are essential to the existence of this list's members or the whole world
Then what is the point of moderation?
for that matter)? Not to mention even sending mail from the same id and waiting for the moderator's decision is a pretty sane way to go, that someone has already exhibited here!
It is for every individual to decide. If one feel he/she is unjustly put under moderation, then why should he/she follow the unjust rules? On top of that, if other members and admins also think it is unjust and agree to be a proxy, it is fair game. In fact, it is a standard pratice in many lists including debian, to forward mails of moderated members (recent case of Sven Luther an example - he was banned from all debian lists, but other members were allowed to forward his mails).
IMHO, for pet peeves, there does not exist any public list, at least no LUG mailing list; rather one should look forward to close friends or psychiatrists for such matters!
Sorry, I did not understand this.
If the goal here is the said world record, go ahead, my best wishes to the list.
_You_ are also helping make that record. Now atleast two mails (yours and mine, may be other replies too) you contributed. You can't have the cake and eat it too. Either you remain silent or be a part of the world record.
-Praveen
പ്രവീണ് അരിമ്പ്രത്തൊടിയില് <GPLv2> I know my rights; I want my phone call! <DRM> What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak? (as seen on /.) Join The DRM Elimination Crew Now! http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/Anti-DRM-Campaign -- http://mm.glug-bom.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 8:13 AM, Nishit Dave stargazer.dave@gmail.com wrote:
Enough, already! There's more to life than these petty issues, so please stop beating them to beyond death.
If you need to focus your energies on something, please try a more constructive approach, like discussing how to convince a corporate IT dept. To allow you to use Linux on your laptop (ours even considers
Is it allowed to install a closed-source ("legal") VM and put Linux in it?
Regards, Mohan S N
On Thursday 19 February 2009 01:28:46 Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Thanks Rony. I didn't know who this VidAyer person
if you had said 'I didn't know who Vidayer was' instead of referring to her as 'this VidAyer person', I may have been motivated to read the rest of your post.
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
On Thursday 19 February 2009 01:28:46 Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Thanks Rony. I didn't know who this VidAyer person
if you had said 'I didn't know who Vidayer was' instead of referring to her as 'this VidAyer person', I may have been motivated to read the rest of your post.
+1. Me too.
Thanks listadmin for stopping spam(s).
2009/2/18 Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com:
issue was unnecessarily brought up, though if Ms. Aiyer was offended by the 'my dear' comment, DJ could offer his regrets large heartedly, only for this comment as I am sure he did not mean anything bad.
Rony,
Its tougher than you think. I have been to this kind of fights many times in the past, even right in this list. Once you enter into a flameware, from that point your ego starts driving, no sense would prevail. But as you said, mustering enough courage to say sorry can pay huge dividents.
- Praveen
-
Anurag -
Dinesh Joshi -
Dinesh Shah (દિનેશ શાહ/दिनेश शाह) -
Kamal -
Kartik Mistry -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
Mohan Nayaka -
Nishit Dave -
Praveen A -
Raj Mathur -
Rony