hello all, I recently changed a couple of retail pharmasies to use gnu/linux on their desktop. first of all they were very resistent because their data management softwares were working on foxpro and so changing to gnu linux was impossible. but the main reason for their complain was that their software had grown too old and they wanted a new faster and efficient software. I proposed to developed that for them in java. then I told them about linux, took a ubuntu live cd and demonstrated and they were impressed. then I asked them a simple question "why do you use computers?" they told me for their daily work. so I asked "ok means you are using the computer for data management word processor tasks etc. so it is not because you want to use some thing called windows?" one of them told me "windows ho ya kuch bhi, kam hone se matlab hain. tumhara system sab karta hain kya?" as we all know linux can be equally good for all the tasks mentioned above, I told them yes. now that gave me an idea. why don't we all linux users start a thread and keep on putting in feedback of Scenarios where we have practically seen gnu/linux working? I underline the word practically seen, because some may only say on the basis of what they have herd. like for example I tryed to convince another client of my company who already uses gnu/linux on the server to use it on the desktop after a demo of ubuntu. but he said "the system is great but does not seen to have autocad which is the backbone of his business". here I could not do any thing but to remove the live cd and boot the machine back to windows. so please put in your feedback on this. where do you thihnk desktop linux can go and where it can't. thanking all. Krishnakant.
On Thursday 21 September 2006 10:55, krishnakant Mane wrote:
hello all, I recently changed a couple of retail pharmasies to use gnu/linux on their desktop. first of all they were very resistent because their data management softwares were working on foxpro and so changing to gnu linux was impossible.
Surprise. It is possible to run foxpro and dbase / clipper apps on linux. U have to use dosemu. I have doen it for a small bank. Besides u can convert clipper apps to run natively in linux using X2c. So u have a migration path with the old apps while u change over to something sensible like postgres / PHP on a host with diskless thin clients. The best part is that even during the transition u will not have to take flak from the customer and since he is functional u can take your time on developing the new app.
then I asked them a simple question "why do you use computers?" they told me for their daily work. so I asked "ok means you are using the computer for data management word processor tasks etc. so it is not because you want to use some thing called windows?" one of them told me "windows ho ya kuch bhi, kam hone se matlab hain. tumhara system sab karta hain kya?"
That is the typical cutomer response. It's the OS challenged IT dept. that is the biggest tripping point. Once the source is available they would have to actually fix things and justify their fat salaries. Sirf IT dept. ke public ko gutli gin na hai. Cutomer ko aam khane se matlab.
On 21/09/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
Surprise. It is possible to run foxpro and dbase / clipper apps on linux. U have to use dosemu. I have doen it for a small bank. Besides u can convert clipper apps to run natively in linux using X2c. So u have a migration path with the old apps while u change over to something sensible like postgres / PHP on a host with diskless thin clients. The best part is that even during the transition u will not have to take flak from the customer and since he is functional u can take your time on developing the new apt.
great! can you provide me some more details on migrating foxpro apps to gnu/linux? JTD this is a great news and I wasn't aware of this happening. if this is true and if this can happen smoothly, then we have a big market segment at our hands. I now need feedback of all you people on ways we can find out to convince these local baniyas and retail pharmacies to understand and except the truth. if "kam hone se matlab" is really what they believe, it can then be very easy for us to migrate them and what's needed is only some man power and time. what do you think jtd? tell me if this is the right track, I am ready to put man power on this path. then the other thing is that we need to find out segment of other businesses at the local level where we can market linux. I think till we use the word promote it is not going to appeal to the masses. we need to have a market attitude. indeed what is wrong in marketing the truth? if we tell these people that their data is almost always safe and the system is going to be virus and attack free, what is wrong that we are marketing? second hurdle I found out is that they often say "ok we can do that but since our computer is under AMC etc, we will try and ask our hardware guy to install linux for us. and as every one knows the common reaction from most hardware guys is "linux! absolutely rubbish, it is just a toy and not used by common man!" but the reality is that they don't have the knowhow of installation and maintainance of gnu/linux systems. how to overcome this. any suggested policies? regards. Krishnakant.
On Thursday 21 September 2006 13:28, krishnakant Mane wrote:
On 21/09/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
Surprise. It is possible to run foxpro and dbase / clipper apps on linux. U have to use dosemu. I have doen it for a small bank. Besides u can convert clipper apps to run natively in linux using X2c. So u have a migration path with the old apps while u change over to something sensible like postgres / PHP on a host with diskless thin clients. The best part is that even during the transition u will not have to take flak from the customer and since he is functional u can take your time on developing the new apt.
great! can you provide me some more details on migrating foxpro apps to gnu/linux?
JTD this is a great news and I wasn't aware of this happening. if this is true and if this can happen smoothly, then we have a big market segment at our hands.
There is opportunity in every segment. All it requires is a business plan. And hard work.
I now need feedback of all you people on ways we can find out to convince these local baniyas and retail pharmacies to understand and except the truth.
U dont have to convince them about the OS at all. Nobody gives a S***. All u have to do is sell them the business advantage they are going to gain with whatever it is u supply - online maintanence, reliability, multilocation software etc. etc. Dont talk price advantage unless u want to shortchange yourself. XPee, Athlon, Intel, Ram etc lots of rubbish dished out by IT folks cause they lack the smarts to sell "advantage" to the customer. And understanding advantage is one thing that runs in his veins.
if "kam hone se matlab" is really what they believe, it can then be very easy for us to migrate them and what's needed is only some man power and time. what do you think jtd? tell me if this is the right track, I am ready to put man power on this path.
That is indeed the right track. But remember that "one size fits all" is false. U have to check each customers needs.
? second hurdle I found out is that they often say "ok we can do that but since our computer is under AMC etc, we will try and ask our hardware guy to install linux for us.
Tell them to put a new blank disk for their data and linux. U supply the disk if neccessary. End of story.
and as every one knows the common reaction from most hardware guys is "linux! absolutely rubbish, it is just a toy and not used by common man!" but the reality is that they don't have the knowhow of installation and maintainance of gnu/linux systems. how to overcome this. any suggested policies?
Dont argue with the brian dead. Use their zombiness to advantage. As sugested abv.
On 21/09/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
There is opportunity in every segment. All it requires is a business plan. And hard work.
yes that is true, and it is high time some one looks at this opportunity.
U dont have to convince them about the OS at all. Nobody gives a S***. All u have to do is sell them the business advantage they are going to gain with whatever it is u supply - online maintanence, reliability, multilocation software etc. etc. Dont talk price advantage unless u want to shortchange yourself.
well it may not work this way all the time. the brand has climed on their heads feavourishly and the kind of uncertainty their hardware guy puts against any thing which is "non-windows" some times causes problem. never the less it will all depend on how well we make them understand that windows is just another way to work and linux too. only thing is that linux will give added stability and security. else they don't end up loosing some thing by giving up windows. this is the common fear in their minds "ham windows may ye sab kar sakte hain, linux ke sath bhi ho sakta hain kya?".
XPee, Athlon, Intel, Ram etc lots of rubbish dished out by IT folks cause they lack the smarts to sell "advantage" to the customer. And understanding advantage is one thing that runs in his veins.
very true. and it is just the matter of making people understand that their computing ways don't change at all. rather they gain some thing at least.
That is indeed the right track. But remember that "one size fits all" is false. U have to check each customers needs.
yes, as I said in the first email, I am trying to list out possibilities where may be linux wont be able to make it on the desktops. so we are sure that when we approach some one, his needs are served. lets except there are some pockets where linux still has to go a long way.
Tell them to put a new blank disk for their data and linux. U supply the disk if neccessary. End of story.
if that can happen nothing like it. even I was thinking of making our clients at least dual boot their machines so that they start using gnu/linux. only thing is most of them will not even allow a machine under amc to be touched. and they will believe more on their hardware guy rather than some one coming from outside. so putting a new hard disk will only be at the mercy of the hardware personal. and all these hardware personals are not like you jtd, who will go all out in supporting gnu/linux. rather many see this as a loss of business. they think "we know linux is secured and stable, once this man named kk installs even as duel boot, I will soon loos the service contract." so they will in all ways put fear uncertainty and doubt in the minds of their clients. we need to address this issue very deeply. don't you think so? and I don't meen to disagree with you jtd or even hurting you. but all are not like you and me. regards. Krishnakant.
On Thursday 21 September 2006 17:12, krishnakant Mane wrote:
Tell them to put a new blank disk for their data and linux. U supply the disk if neccessary. End of story.
if that can happen nothing like it. even I was thinking of making our clients at least dual boot their machines so that they start using gnu/linux. only thing is most of them will not even allow a machine under amc to be touched. and they will believe more on their hardware guy rather than some one coming from outside. so putting a new hard disk will only be at the mercy of the hardware personal.
I usually do it like this. Check the free space (maybe 30GB). Tell the hardware guy u need 55gb free space. He says new disk. U say customer will refuse. He says i will convince him. U thank him profusely.
and all these hardware personals are not like you jtd, who will go all out in supporting gnu/linux. rather many see this as a loss of business. they think "we know linux is secured and stable, once this man named kk installs even as duel boot, I will soon loos the service contract." so they will in all ways put fear uncertainty and doubt in the minds of their clients. we need to address this issue very deeply. don't you think so? and I don't meen to disagree with you jtd or even hurting you. but all are not like you and me.
HA ha. I take it then u havent seen the flames fly around here. I am one thick skinned bloke ;-). U are absolutely right abt the hardware guy masquerading as the knowall. Avoid dual boot like the plague. U will loose all data everytime some madcap formats the disk kyonki machine slow chal raha hai / virus hai / disk bahut din se format nahi kiya. Also the moment he blames a problem on linux just disconnect your drive and he will stick out like a sore thumb. Learn the pc arch well. Next time they dish out crap give them details of write thru v/s write back cache and its impact on queue miss or some such equally useless thingy on netwonking on windoze.
Remember it's a lot of hard work and nobody's running "get the facts wright" or "kids waving arms on bbc" ads in support of linux.
On 21/09/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
I usually do it like this. Check the free space (maybe 30GB). Tell the hardware guy u need 55gb free space. He says new disk. U say customer will refuse. He says i will convince him. U thank him profusely.
that sounds very good. I did it exactly the same way just a few hours back. but forget convincing for a new hard disk, the hardware person told streight on the face, "look you linux guys should first keep on experimenting on ur machines. this is a business machine and we have critical data and day to day serious work. we are not interested in some expriments on this we use use tried tested and well known operating system. no one understands linux and it is not just a study project. as a loyal person I wont let him waist money on a hard disk that will install all the study toys. will you studetns pay if my customer looses business due to your study os?" I thought there is no point in talking with him. but this is what is going to happen time and again. any ways I am trying to do a write up on this issue in english hindi and marathi. and give it to all people. let's see what happens. seams Mr. Bil must be appreciated for his excelent brain work that even those who have never seen his face respect his work so much that they have surrendered every thing to him. Krishnakant.
hey, just latest update. one of the hole sellers I visited confirmed for getting linux installed. but the un fortunate thing is the reason. he was well aware of gnu/linux because his son is doing BE in computer science from VJTI. but one success never the less. Krishnakant.
On 21-Sep-06, at 7:27 PM, krishnakant Mane wrote:
seams Mr. Bil must be appreciated for his excelent brain work that even those who have never seen his face respect his work so much that they have surrendered every thing to him.
was it a legal copy of doze?
On 22/09/06, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
was it a legal copy of doze?
unfortunately yes. they spend some money on buying windows. office I am not sure but windows yes it is leagul copy. and what if it was not? the bottom line is that there is so much value to m$ that people will even steel the copy and use it and linux is so rubbish that people don't even want it for free. see the difference? this is called marketing. alas the big b of m$ did not use this brain to make those people happy who actually made him so rich. Krishnakant.
On Friday 22 September 2006 10:55, krishnakant Mane wrote:
On 22/09/06, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
was it a legal copy of doze?
unfortunately yes. they spend some money on buying windows. office I am not sure but windows yes it is leagul copy. and what if it was not? the bottom line is that there is so much value to m$ that people will even steel the copy and use it and linux is so rubbish that people don't even want it for free. see the difference? this is called marketing.
This is called stupid customer, not savvy marketing. Savvy marketing is when clever customer is shown value. It means that U have to show savvy marketing cause M$ is already in there. The performance of your marketing has to be >> M$ incumbence+legacy app+hostile HW vendor+stupid customer. If u dont have that savvyness tie up with Novell or RH or Canonical. They do some of the lifting (fancy broucher, seminars, Ads, suitnboot sales guy, prescence at IT digs etc.) for u. The downside is u will be subservient to their whims. GNU/Linux is like diamond dust great value once u coat your scalpel with it and u use your scalpel like a surgeon. M$ is 500 kg gorilla with a sledgehammer. Change your strategy and tactics.
GNU/Linux is just providing the tools to climb over the barriers erected by closed software. U still need the skill and the will to climb. It's easy to do biz on the M$ bandwagon and equally easy to topple out from there. It's tuff getting your customer on the GNU train but u are assured of one smooth ride after that.
alas the big b of m$ did not use this brain to make those people happy who actually made him so rich.
And M$ by the way are not where they are because of savvy marketing. They are so because of a long list of illegal business practices. Their history is replete with skull duggery from the beginning. And the initial breakthrough with IBM was a combo of string pulling (billybaba's mom and dad were lawyers hobnobing with the high and mighty in IBM and the US gov) and fortuious circumstances (Gary Kidall and team were having a party and shooed out IBM suits). Search google if u want the true story. If u want the sick legal details it's here http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=2005010107100653
Having said the above, if u want a piece of business pie u have to compete with whatever thrash they throw at u. How u do it is your problem not gnu/linux. gnu/linux is totally neutral and impartial in the way it treats it's eco system and cares only about technical excellence and freedom to continue being so.
On 22/09/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
This is called stupid customer, not savvy marketing. Savvy marketing is when clever customer is shown value.
ok stupid customer, but stupid or not m$ have millions of such stupid customers. so what ever the case is, this is absolutely perfect brain work. as I said earlier only bad thing is that Mr. Bil only used it for bad (but very very clever marketing). making so many people fools and keeping them so for a long time indeed needs great marketing. how could billions of people just except the stupidity?
It means that U have to show savvy marketing cause M$ is already in there. The performance of your marketing has to be >> M$ incumbence+legacy app+hostile HW vendor+stupid customer. If u dont have that savvyness tie up with Novell or RH or Canonical. They do some of the lifting (fancy broucher, seminars, Ads, suitnboot sales guy, prescence at IT digs etc.) for u. The downside is u will be subservient to their whims.
yes right. I think that could be one option. and then afterall becoming as rich as bil gaits isn't and should not be the ultimate thing in life. as I keep on saying why not make people happy, give them freedom and earn money out of that instead of making them stupid out of realy perfect marketing?
GNU/Linux is like diamond dust great value once u coat your scalpel with it and u use your scalpel like a surgeon. M$ is 500 kg gorilla with a sledgehammer. Change your strategy and tactics.
we have to except one thing, what ever m$ is, they are a big power and people wont leave m$ just like that. again strong customer fooling by m$ with excelent policies. we rather need to appreciate the good aspects and try and find out how we can convince people that this is a sweet taist vala drug and nothing else. gnu/linux is taisti as well as helthy.
GNU/Linux is just providing the tools to climb over the barriers erected by closed software. U still need the skill and the will to climb. It's easy to do biz on the M$ bandwagon and equally easy to topple out from there.
exactly! now you got the point. "you need the skill and the will" but with windows you get the skill and the will to do your daily computing work. and that's the entire point. at least with his clever marketing bil gaits has convinced the people. so we need to go the same way and pull out the thorne with a thorne. some how we must do heavy media publicity and all that. there is only one thing that can defeat the bad and harmful marketing stratagy of m$, and it is winning of trust. and people trust media more than any thing.
It's tuff getting your customer on the GNU train but u are assured of one smooth ride after that.
but Mr. Bil has made the people believe that the other train has fear, uncertainty and doubt. that's y most of them consider that as a toy and a time pass experiment. the marketing of windows sounds like "thanda matlab cocacola". I often here from people "come on! if you don't use windows how will you even start your computer?". this is my real case story. just think over it.
alas the big b of m$ did not use this brain to make those people happy who actually made him so rich.
And M$ by the way are not where they are because of savvy marketing. They are so because of a long list of illegal business practices. Their history is replete with skull duggery from the beginning. And the initial breakthrough with IBM was a combo of string pulling (billybaba's mom and dad were lawyers hobnobing with the high and mighty in IBM and the US gov) and fortuious circumstances (Gary Kidall and team were having a party and shooed out IBM suits). Search google if u want the true story. If u want the sick legal details it's here http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=2005010107100653
so that is nothing to do with what people think about windows. go and tell this to 100 people, at least 90 will say "so what, windows is good enough and we run our business and our day to day work. cheeting or bla bla bla, we don't care as long as windows works". look jtd and all othres who are involved. I am putting all these case histories so that we all can fight for the truth. and to do so, we must appreciate the finer aspects of the other side. as Dinesh had rightly asked "what's stopping corporates from using gnu/linux?" Krishnakant.
Dear Krishnakant,
On 9/22/06, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
On 22/09/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
This is called stupid customer, not savvy marketing. Savvy marketing is when clever customer is shown value.
ok stupid customer, but stupid or not m$ have millions of such stupid customers. so what ever the case is, this is absolutely perfect brain
Customer is never stupid. If the customer does not buy the wares you are hawking does not make him/her stupid. It's just that s/he has different priorities then you have. Selling a concept (Freedom) and selling a product (OS) is totally different things.
Let us take an example. We educated class does not vote, but the weaker section does. In the end we keep crying that we are ruled by morons and corrupt people. Show we brand all educated people who do not vote as stupid? :-)
work. as I said earlier only bad thing is that Mr. Bil only used it for bad (but very very clever marketing). making so many people fools and keeping them so for a long time indeed needs great marketing. how could billions of people just except the stupidity?
So you think only clever marketing is the only way? Have you ever heard about ecosystem and vested interests? You have already encountered one at your customer's place. :-)
yes right. I think that could be one option. and then afterall becoming as rich as bil gaits isn't and should not be the ultimate thing in life.
May be for you. Others may have different priorities. Some like to be rich, some famous, some just want to be cool.
In my opinion those who adopt a different school of thought just based on the dislike and hatred for some thing does not last long. I have seen many cases like this in the FOSS community. You build your faith using the strength of your GOD not the weakness of other GODs. ;-)
as I keep on saying why not make people happy, give them freedom and earn money out of that instead of making them stupid out of realy perfect marketing?
This is really a noble cause. Please keep this spirit up.
we have to except one thing, what ever m$ is, they are a big power and people wont leave m$ just like that. again strong customer fooling by m$ with excelent policies.
Remember, change is painful but inevitable.
same way and pull out the thorne with a thorne. some how we must do heavy media publicity and all that.
Show me the mullah. Where will it come from? :-)
there is only one thing that can defeat the bad and harmful marketing stratagy of m$, and it is winning of trust. and people trust media more than any thing.
So have you spoken to any media person(s) and are they willing to fight for your cause?
Krishnakant.
With regards,
dear mr dinesh, with reference to the media publicity, I am taking two approaches. firstly, I have decided to lift my pen again. I was a reporter for mid day and also wrote a few articles for Indian express. I have good contacts with other papers like DNA. and one of our ilug members is from Sahara. so that is one thing. the second thing is that I have some people to back the publicity in media. Dr. Nagarjuna is one person who is providing me all the support. and I am also seeking help of advocates who where also my clients for linux desktop and servers. Krishnakant.
On 24/09/06 09:19 +0000, Dinesh Shah wrote:
Dear Krishnakant,
On 9/22/06, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
On 22/09/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
This is called stupid customer, not savvy marketing. Savvy marketing is when clever customer is shown value.
ok stupid customer, but stupid or not m$ have millions of such stupid customers. so what ever the case is, this is absolutely perfect brain
Customer is never stupid. If the customer does not buy the wares you are hawking does not make him/her stupid. It's just that s/he has
I recommend that you work helpdesk/support for some time.
Devdas Bhagat
Hi Devdas,
On 9/24/06, Devdas Bhagat devdas@dvb.homelinux.org wrote:
I recommend that you work helpdesk/support for some time.
:-) I find those who men these desks are even more stupid then the customers.
I think I have clearly stated that the customer(s) may have different priorities and they may be differently able.
Like you can't expect a CA or a doctor to be a computer wiz, however there may be exceptions.
For example to drive a car I need not be an automobile engineer. Why do we expect the computer users to be computer scientists?
Devdas Bhagat
With regards,
On 24/09/06 17:47 +0000, Dinesh Shah wrote:
Hi Devdas,
On 9/24/06, Devdas Bhagat devdas@dvb.homelinux.org wrote:
I recommend that you work helpdesk/support for some time.
:-) I find those who men these desks are even more stupid then the customers.
There _is_ a reason I escalate to level 3 support as fast as possible, when I need it. Level 1 and 2 are for the "normal" users. Don't blame the helpdesk if you haven't worked there.
I think I have clearly stated that the customer(s) may have different priorities and they may be differently able.
However, that does not excuse the user from learning the basics of computer usage. No one is asking them to _program_ computers. However, thinking logically, reading instructions and following them is a rather essential skill.
Like you can't expect a CA or a doctor to be a computer wiz, however there may be exceptions.
For example to drive a car I need not be an automobile engineer. Why do we expect the computer users to be computer scientists?
Bad analogy. Cars are simple as compared to computers. They just move you from one place to another. They take a _very_ limited set of inputs, and have a limited set of outputs. The UI for cars is also consistent. Let me know when you can make one UI for all computing tasks.
You _can_ make computers simpler to use. In that case, they won't stay general purpose devices any longer. You can have one computer for text entry, one for image processing, one for typesetting, one for printing, one for gaming, one for playing audio and video, one for web surfing, one for email .... or you can have one complex device with a learning curve.
To follow your own analogy, automobile drivers need licenses, shouldn't computer users need a license too? One which qualifies them to work with a certain type of software?
We don't expect computer users to be computer scientists. They merely need to recognise the complexity of the work they do on the computer. If you have read The Mythical Man Month, these are what are Brooks terms as accidental difficulties. This is one reason why programming a computer isn't an engineering discipline, but a research discipline.
Devdas Bhagat
On Monday 25 September 2006 00:24, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
You _can_ make computers simpler to use. In that case, they won't stay general purpose devices any longer. You can have one computer for text entry, one for image processing, one for typesetting, one for printing, one for gaming, one for playing audio and video, one for web surfing, one for email
That is precisely what the market is delivering these days, set top box, media center, game consoles, phones that do everything except call. The majority use linux. If we are to total these into usage it should outstrip M$ sales by an order of magnitude. In the old days (atleast in Japan where text processing is compleXXX) u had wordprocessors too, a printer, monitor, keyboard and cpu rolled into one with spreadsheet and wordprocessing package.
Knowing that they have lost the battle, u see M$ bundling wma so that they can fence in the playing field by tying up with like minded up stream crooks in the media companies. And wma is patent encumbered so no writing code by reading standards. M$ xml is another attempt in the same direction.
On 25/09/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
That is precisely what the market is delivering these days, set top box, media center, game consoles, phones that do everything except call. The majority use linux. If we are to total these into usage it should outstrip M$ sales by an order of magnitude.
yes very true, don't forget one enterprise owned by yours truely is in joint venture with IIT and DST funding for a book reader which is totally linux based. and regarding set top boxes, there was a big issue where the companies were questioned as to why costeffective technologies as in free license were not used. it so happened that some companies came in india with this product and had windows micro edition on the boxes and as all know the licenses do cost. the question was asked by the government about the cost effectiveness. and a strong reference to linux was made. I don't remember the issue that came up in times, but I will try to dig it up. bottom line is, it is not the m$ vs redhat/ IBM or canonical etc. it just means that you should not be forced to pay for some rights which you get by birth. owning the copy of the software product you bought by paying money is your right. and even after paying license fees to m$ and similar companies, their license staits "you have been granted this license to use the software". it states all the things you can't do with it. so even before I knew gpl, I always asked people, why am I not allowed to do any thing with the software I purchased? don't I have a right to do any thing with my copy? and as jtd rightly said, I never heard a .net enabled mobile phone. I know python is used in nokia hand sets and java enabled phones are common. I have the news from Dr. Nagarjuna that linux phones are also coming up. or may be I am behind the news schedule and they have already come. but all things said and done, no .net or m$ enabled phones. regarding desktops, in many European countries, I personally know companies and organisations who don't have a single trace of windows on their desktop. they rather pay companies like IBM and Canonical for support (even for desktop). why should we not make a huge campain and promote truth and freedom with power and security through gnu/linux? and then there are so many brands to choose from unlike m$? regards. Krishnakant.
On Monday 25 September 2006 11:06, krishnakant Mane wrote:
and as jtd rightly said, I never heard a .net enabled mobile phone.
BTW .net has been ditched by M$ for the Vista os.
I know python is used in nokia hand sets and java enabled phones are common. I have the news from Dr. Nagarjuna that linux phones are also coming up.
A780 - I am using one :-)). I already have two gpld apps running on it.
BTW .net has been ditched by M$ for the Vista os.
there you are gentelman. I hope the one who thinks m$ gives good support and will help you out of every thing, will take a serious note of this. so although my answer was "typicle and standard " in any "anti m$ thread ", the reality is that m$ says "ok, that technology on which your software is based will be scrap so better throw it and buy our brand new os which will give you all the requested things (and millins of new bugs)". till date no technology has been diched by open source community and nither by any big brands like redhat, IBM or Novel (and they are not bunch of fun loving hackers).
I know python is used in nokia hand sets and java enabled phones are common. I have the news from Dr. Nagarjuna that linux phones are also coming up.
A780 - I am using one :-)). I already have two gpld apps running on it.
oh really! can you provide some more info on this please? regards. Krishnakant.
On 25/09/06 10:31 +0530, jtd wrote: <snip>
That is precisely what the market is delivering these days, set top box, media center, game consoles, phones that do everything except call. The majority use linux. If we are to total these into usage it should outstrip M$ sales by an order of magnitude. In the old days
In numbers, yes. In dollar terms, no. Also, I still have to see a PC replacement which offers a browser, an office suite, an email client, and some games. There are some high end phones running WinCE which offer stuff like this, but they aren't a PC replacement.
(atleast in Japan where text processing is compleXXX) u had
Text processing in Devnagari is easily more complex (left to right primary direction, with glyphs going right to left above and below the character lines).
Devdas Bhagat
On Monday 25 September 2006 18:29, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
On 25/09/06 10:31 +0530, jtd wrote:
<snip>
That is precisely what the market is delivering these days, set top box, media center, game consoles, phones that do everything except call. The majority use linux. If we are to total these into usage it should outstrip M$ sales by an order of magnitude. In the old days
In numbers, yes. In dollar terms, no.
In dollar terms would be very difficult to account for, since the majority are home bred distros. So would be priced at "zero". However assuming eqivalent pricing (M$ kit price = linux kit price), M$ will certainly bite the dust. Ofcourse this mode of costing would be deemed questionable.
Also, I still have to see a PC replacement which offers a browser, an office suite, an email client, and some games. There are some high end phones running WinCE which offer stuff like this, but they aren't a PC replacement.
Definetly not. As u said flexibility and complexity go hand in hand, with it's attendant requirements of user labour to achieve profeciency.
(atleast in Japan where text processing is compleXXX) u had
Text processing in Devnagari is easily more complex (left to right primary direction, with glyphs going right to left above and below the character lines).
Believe me Devnagiri is simple. Devnagiri has top middle and bottom with vertical symmetry (dunno what the tech term is). Chinese and Japanese have top, middle, bottom with middle divided into 4 quadrant for glyphs in the middle of characters. and 3000++ characters in common use. Those machines in the 80s had monitors and graphics which were stunning even by today's standards.
The complexity of the script resulted in a funny ability of Japanese to write english accross a table "mirrored", so that u could read.
On Sunday 24 September 2006 14:49, Dinesh Shah wrote:
Dear Krishnakant,
On 9/22/06, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
On 22/09/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
This is called stupid customer, not savvy marketing. Savvy marketing is when clever customer is shown value.
ok stupid customer, but stupid or not m$ have millions of such stupid customers. so what ever the case is, this is absolutely perfect brain
Customer is never stupid. If the customer does not buy the wares you are hawking does not make him/her stupid. It's just that s/he has different priorities then you have. Selling a concept (Freedom) and selling a product (OS) is totally different things.
when i say stupid customer, I mean purely in a techinical sense. While they indeed will have different priorities and a good understanding of those priorities, they do not have the capability to understand tech that would suit those priorities.
krishnakant Mane wrote:
On 21/09/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
Tell them to put a new blank disk for their data and linux. U supply the disk if neccessary. End of story.
if that can happen nothing like it. even I was thinking of making our clients at least dual boot their machines so that they start using gnu/linux. only thing is most of them will not even allow a machine under amc to be touched. and they will believe more on their hardware guy rather than some one coming from outside.
Krish, be very carefull in handling used machines. Many of them have a certain 'touch and go' knack of working and even the best intentions could land you in a big soup if his existing system breaks down. Look for a standby or least used machine for experimenting.
so putting a new hard disk will only be at the mercy of the hardware personal.
Regards,
Rony.
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Devdas Bhagat -
Dinesh Shah -
jtd -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
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Rony