Hello all,
http://linuxhelp.blogspot.com/2006/10/here-is-why-anti-piracy-technology.htm...
After reading this article, one would probably, see the future desktops with a cool background, and Mozilla Firefox dominating the browsing etiquettes.
Really?
Yesterday's BoF had a converstation about this. When Mr. Krishnakant suggested that this (Vista's anti-piracy policy would be good for Linux distros) would happen, but wouldn't Crackers break those policies? (as also stated by Mr. Rony)
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On Friday 06 October 2006 22:36, Roshan wrote:
Hello all,
http://linuxhelp.blogspot.com/2006/10/here-is-why-anti-piracy-technol ogy.html
After reading this article, one would probably, see the future desktops with a cool background, and Mozilla Firefox dominating the browsing etiquettes.
Really?
Yesterday's BoF had a converstation about this. When Mr. Krishnakant suggested that this (Vista's anti-piracy policy would be good for Linux distros) would happen, but wouldn't Crackers break those policies? (as also stated by Mr. Rony)
Don't worry. Those anti-piracy measures would be very very easy to bypass. M$ may already suffer a tiny bit due to the hardware upgrade required to run Vista.... Either that, or people will keep using Windows XP *shrugs*.
On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 22:51 +0530, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
Don't worry. Those anti-piracy measures would be very very easy to bypass. M$ may already suffer a tiny bit due to the hardware upgrade required to run Vista.... Either that, or people will keep using Windows XP *shrugs*.
Many are still using Windows 98 ...
-- Arun Khan
dont worry gentelmen. more and more people are now realising that free as in speach means a lot. and I am also lucky to get the most valued guidance of Dr. Nagarjuna on this topic and how I can make more and more people understand this issue. and it has started to work. today itself I converted 5 retaillers into gnu/linux desktop on the same advocacy which I learned from ceneor people like Dr. Nagarjuna. and I am now finding many people who say "hum ko kam se matlab hain, kya windows kya linux". and I am also convincing people (and sorry to be harsh for those m$ fans), that m$ windows is nothing but a biggest spyware and virus in itself. and I am also finding good ways of proving it. give them their own statement of internet surffing and they ask me "I never uploaded so much information, how is this number so high?" afterall when you install a spyware called windows on your machine this is what happens. the other good news is that I am developing a new software for my old client and he is as it is ready to take gnu/linux and also marketing it himself in his business circle. so the days are really good. Krishnakant.
On Saturday 07 October 2006 00:10, krishnakant Mane wrote:
that m$ windows is nothing but a biggest spyware and virus in itself.
Dude, I am all for the Free Software movement, OSS etc... and I am against M$ ideology but I dont appreciate people from the Linux community bad mouth Windoze all the time. Re-read that sentence of yours. You sound like a hardcore Linux fanatic. The Linux community has a lot of them and dont need new ones. They give the community a bad name. Please refrain from making such irresponsible and childish statements in the future.
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On Saturday 07 October 2006 12:44 AM, Dinesh Joshi cobbled together some glyphs to say:
On Saturday 07 October 2006 00:10, krishnakant Mane wrote:
that m$ windows is nothing but a biggest spyware and virus in itself.
Dude, I am all for the Free Software movement, OSS etc... and I am against M$ ideology but I dont appreciate people from the Linux community bad mouth Windoze all the time. Re-read that sentence of yours. You sound like a hardcore Linux fanatic. The Linux community has a lot of them and dont need new ones. They give the community a bad name. Please refrain from making such irresponsible and childish statements in the future.
Exactly what ``irresponsible'' and ``childish'' statement did he make? Why do you think that it's the fanatics who call Microsoft Windows a spy-ware, and how does speaking the truth bring bad name to the Linux [sic] community? It's Human nature to find out / invent / discover / publicise flaws in stuff we don't like / support. Even inside the Free Software community we fight about GNU Emacs vs. ViM, PostgreSQL vs. MySQL, etc. While the flaws of say ViM or MySQL are mostly subjective, the issues with Microsoft Windows are real even if we don't talk about the philosophical issues. I don't think speaking the truth about Microsoft Windows (terming it a spy-ware) is going to do any harm to the Free Software community as long as we don't attack the users themselves. This is in a way a public service that we are doing by educating the people about the misconceptions regarding the so-called user-friendliness and overall niceness of Microsoft Windows in particular and proprietary software in general.
Regards, BG
- -- Baishampayan Ghose b.ghose@ubuntu.com Ubuntu -- Linux for Human Beings http://www.ubuntu.com/
1024D/86361B74 BB2C E244 15AD 05C5 523A 90E7 4249 3494 8636 1B74
On Saturday 07 October 2006 09:59, Baishampayan Ghose wrote:
Exactly what ``irresponsible'' and ``childish'' statement did he make? Why do you think that it's the fanatics who call Microsoft Windows a spy-ware, and how does speaking the truth bring bad name to the Linux [sic] community?
The mail archive is online. Search if it you wish.
It's Human nature to find out / invent / discover / publicise flaws in stuff we don't like / support. Even inside the Free Software
Publicising flaws is one thing. I am very much for it. But name calling is not. Its not productive at all.
I don't think speaking the truth about Microsoft Windows (terming it a spy-ware)
Well that is twisting words now. Windoze is not spyware. M$ has complete rights to keep people from pirating its software. AFAIK it doesnt send any personal info which is objectionable. Genuine users who have registered with them already have given out more than enough personal information.
Spreading FUD regarding other OSes wont get Linux anywhere.
And if one values one's privacy so much then he / she should unplug his/her computer from the internet because the moment you're online, some or the other "personal" information definitely goes out.
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On Saturday 07 October 2006 10:15 PM, Dinesh Joshi cobbled together some glyphs to say:
I don't think speaking the truth about Microsoft Windows (terming it a spy-ware)
Well that is twisting words now. Windoze is not spyware. M$ has complete rights to keep people from pirating its software. AFAIK it doesnt send any personal info which is objectionable. Genuine users who have registered with them already have given out more than enough personal information.
Spreading FUD regarding other OSes wont get Linux anywhere.
And if one values one's privacy so much then he / she should unplug his/her computer from the internet because the moment you're online, some or the other "personal" information definitely goes out.
How can _you_ be sure that Windows is not spy-ware? Have you seen the source code? I guess you came to the conclusion by *trusting* what Microsoft claims. In that case, you have to trust what Microsoft is saying about GNU/Linux in its ``Get the facts'' campaign and the numerous independent studies funded by Microsoft.
The personal information that people mostly give away on the Internet comprises Email addresses, phone numbers, SSNs, etc. All those information is given away by the people themselves, unwittingly or not. But what about the information passed on to Redmond by Windows? Do you have _any_ idea about what that information is? Can you control it in any way? Do you still think this is FUD?
Regards, BG
- -- Baishampayan Ghose b.ghose@ubuntu.com Ubuntu -- Linux for Human Beings http://www.ubuntu.com/
1024D/86361B74 BB2C E244 15AD 05C5 523A 90E7 4249 3494 8636 1B74
On 07-Oct-06, at 6:02 PM, Baishampayan Ghose wrote:
Regards, BG
please remove that idiotic PGP stuff from your mails
On 07-Oct-06, at 8:01 PM, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
On 07-Oct-06, at 6:02 PM, Baishampayan Ghose wrote:
Regards, BG
please remove that idiotic PGP stuff from your mails
Uh? He is using a standard inline PGP signature.
which is wasting my bandwidth
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On Saturday 07 October 2006 08:01 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves cobbled together some glyphs to say:
Regards, BG
please remove that idiotic PGP stuff from your mails
Idiotic? I always sign my Emails and inline PGP signatures are IETF RFC 2440 compliant. I _can_ use PGP/MIME (RFC 3156) as an alternative but not all mail clients will be able to read those mails (especially on Windows). If you are using a sane mail client it will not display the PGP signature part and may also automatically verify the signature. In any case it's way better than those HTML advertisements which come with each and every Yahoo! / Rediffmail account.
Regards, BG
- -- Baishampayan Ghose b.ghose@ubuntu.com Ubuntu -- Linux for Human Beings http://www.ubuntu.com/
1024D/86361B74 BB2C E244 15AD 05C5 523A 90E7 4249 3494 8636 1B74
On 07-Oct-06, at 10:10 PM, Baishampayan Ghose wrote:
Idiotic? I always sign my Emails and inline PGP signatures are IETF RFC 2440 compliant. I _can_ use PGP/MIME (RFC 3156) as an alternative but not all mail clients will be able to read those mails (especially on Windows).
how does it help in anyway to pu the sig?
On 10/7/06, Baishampayan Ghose b.ghose@ubuntu.com wrote:
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On Saturday 07 October 2006 10:15 PM, Dinesh Joshi cobbled together some glyphs to say:
I don't think speaking the truth about Microsoft Windows (terming it a spy-ware)
<...>
How can _you_ be sure that Windows is not spy-ware? Have you seen the
source code?
Reminds me of this classic: http://www.acm.org/classics/sep95/
Regards, Mohan S N <...>
Regards, BG
Baishampayan Ghose b.ghose@ubuntu.com
On Saturday 07 October 2006 12:32, Baishampayan Ghose wrote:
How can _you_ be sure that Windows is not spy-ware? Have you seen the source code? I guess you came to the conclusion by *trusting* what Microsoft claims. In that case, you have to trust what Microsoft is saying about GNU/Linux in its ``Get the facts'' campaign and the numerous independent studies funded by Microsoft.
I am _not_ trusting M$ at all. All I am saying is innocent until proven guilty. Drop the Windoze bashing for a while atleast! People associate Linux users == Windoze bashers. Is that a good thing?
The personal information that people mostly give away on the Internet comprises Email addresses, phone numbers, SSNs, etc. All those information is given away by the people themselves, unwittingly or not. But what about the information passed on to Redmond by Windows? Do you have _any_ idea about what that information is? Can you control it in any way? Do you still think this is FUD?
Ever bought a genuine copy of windows? The things they ask are quite trivial and nothing to be worried about. I dont find it intrusive that they check whether the copy of software running on my PC is genuine or not. If they are doing anything apart from that then they'll be bashed by a whole lot of users.
Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Ever bought a genuine copy of windows? The things they ask are quite trivial and nothing to be worried about. I dont find it intrusive that they check whether the copy of software running on my PC is genuine or not. If they are doing anything apart from that then they'll be bashed by a whole lot of users.
I agree.
Regards,
Rony.
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On 10/7/06, Baishampayan Ghose b.ghose@ubuntu.com wrote:
On Saturday 07 October 2006 10:15 PM, Dinesh Joshi cobbled together some glyphs to say:
I don't think speaking the truth about Microsoft Windows (terming it a spy-ware)
Well that is twisting words now. Windoze is not spyware. M$ has complete rights to keep people from pirating its software. AFAIK it doesnt send any personal info which is objectionable.
How can _you_ be sure that Windows is not spy-ware? Have you seen the source code?
How do you know that IT IS? Have you?
All we know is that they are uploading some data from _your_ PC - we don't know what exactly that is. If _you_ don't trust 'em that much _you_ shouldn't buy their software. If _you're_ stealing software (even from M$ - chor ke ghar chori) then perhaps you deserve to be spied upon!!
It is understandable, how ppl on this list would feel about GNU/Linux vs. Windoze. I feel the same way. But unless you have hard facts, making such accusations is nothing short of jingoism.
AFAIC, Redmond doesn't have the smarts to write a decent spyware :-P
.farazs
Note: _you_ to b taken in the generic sense.
Faraz Shahbazker wrote:
All we know is that they are uploading some data from _your_ PC - we don't know what exactly that is. If _you_ don't trust 'em that much _you_ shouldn't buy their software. If _you're_ stealing software (even from M$ - chor ke ghar chori) then perhaps you deserve to be spied upon!!
AFAIK they note the serial numbers/hardware codes of the hard disk and motherboard for the activation key. They allow up to 3 hardware changes for re-installation after which one has to contact M$ and give reason for so much of hardware change in one system ( single user license ). This is to prevent people from installing legal copies on more than one machine. With WGA, my guess is that they compare h/w and s/w information to see if more than one system is re-using legal software.
When a person registers his/her copy of M$ for support, anyway the company has been provided with the customer details.
Regards,
Rony.
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AFAIK they note the serial numbers/hardware codes of the hard disk and motherboard for the activation key. They allow up to 3 hardware changes for re-installation after which one has to contact M$ and give reason for so much of hardware change in one system ( single user license ).
why so, main ne pura paisa diya hain, main hardware change karu meri marzi! why should I be answerable to m$ for "so many hardware changes?" first of all this is the biggest practical issue that free software addresses. if I have paid for that copy of gnu/linux, I have the entire right to do what I want to do with the system. but if even after paying I only get right to use in a limited way, I can't except this things. so we become terrorists of IT who r called crackers or pyrats. regards, Krishnakant.
On Sunday 08 October 2006 18:44, krishnakant Mane wrote:
why so, main ne pura paisa diya hain, main hardware change karu meri marzi! why should I be answerable to m$ for "so many hardware
Has M$ given you a invitation to buy their software? Have they forced you to buy it? You buy it on your own accord. You agree to the license. You must abide by it. You dont agree with their conditions, you're free to use something else. No ones forcing you.
On 10/10/06 20:29 +0000, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Sunday 08 October 2006 18:44, krishnakant Mane wrote:
why so, main ne pura paisa diya hain, main hardware change karu meri marzi! why should I be answerable to m$ for "so many hardware
Has M$ given you a invitation to buy their software? Have they forced you to buy it? You buy it on your own accord. You agree to the license.
Tried finding laptops without MS Windows and still supported and fully functional? Or a branded consumer level desktop? Or a desktop from most assemblers?
What part of 'Microsoft was convicted for illegal monopolistic practices regarding re-distribution agreements' do you not understand?
Devdas Bhagat
On Tuesday 10 October 2006 15:48, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
Tried finding laptops without MS Windows and still supported and fully functional? Or a branded consumer level desktop? Or a desktop from most assemblers?
Unbranded, unmarked laptops are available. Laptops with FreeDOS are perfectly available. Laptops with Linux preinstalled are now available. If you dont like Windoze running on your laptop / branded desktop you can say NO to the license agreement when you switch on your machine for the first time. Format the disk and ask for a refund from M$.
Assembled hardware doesnt come preinstalled with any OS. You always have the choice of what gets loaded on your PC. You can ask your "assembler" to put Linux. Its not as if M$ is forcing you to install anything on your assembled PC, is it? ;)
What part of 'Microsoft was convicted for illegal monopolistic practices regarding re-distribution agreements' do you not understand?
Eh? What has that got *anything* to do with the topic? Monopolistic market practices are supposed to be discouraged by the government and the respective market regulator. Is their failure anything to do with this topic? This is out of the scope of this discussion.
On 10/10/06 21:44 +0000, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Tuesday 10 October 2006 15:48, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
Tried finding laptops without MS Windows and still supported and fully functional? Or a branded consumer level desktop? Or a desktop from most assemblers?
Unbranded, unmarked laptops are available. Laptops with FreeDOS are perfectly available. Laptops with Linux preinstalled are now available.
Note the _supported_ part.
If you dont like Windoze running on your laptop / branded desktop you can say NO to the license agreement when you switch on your machine for the first time. Format the disk and ask for a refund from M$.
Assembled hardware doesnt come preinstalled with any OS. You always have the choice of what gets loaded on your PC. You can ask your "assembler" to put Linux. Its not as if M$ is forcing you to install anything on your assembled PC, is it? ;)
And what kind of support do you expect?
What part of 'Microsoft was convicted for illegal monopolistic practices regarding re-distribution agreements' do you not understand?
Eh? What has that got *anything* to do with the topic? Monopolistic market practices are supposed to be discouraged by the government and the respective market regulator. Is their failure anything to do with this topic? This is out of the scope of this discussion.
Nope. That was a hint as to why getting stuff without paying the OS tax is difficult.
Devdas Bhagat
On Tuesday 10 October 2006 17:32, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
Note the _supported_ part.
Et tu? :P
And what kind of support do you expect?
Heh...then thats the user's problem... :/ If hes so pissed with M$ then he'll find the support he needs in LUGs or he can /buy/ SuSE, Lycoris or whatever Linspire or something. He'll get all the support he needs, I think. :P
Nope. That was a hint as to why getting stuff without paying the OS tax is difficult.
Heh...maybe for branded machines. Not applicable in the Indian scenario anyway as most people use assembled PCs.
Now please stop cribbing about the support part if you dont have credible points to raise.
As it stands, M$ is not shoving Windoze down anybody's throat. You *always* have a choice. You dont like it, dont buy it. You dont want it, return it. You dont agree with them use something /else/. I never intended that this thread discussed any philosophical differences that FSF has with M$. Yeah I hate them to the core but that doesn't mean I keep bashing Windoze at each and every opportunity that I get.
Windoze bashers have little credibility with users if you're trying to show them the world of Linux.
Linux has its own identity. Linux is not successful because Windoze is BAD. Its successful because IT IS GOOD. Linux should NOT be considered the best amongst the worst. Its should simply be the best in absolute terms.
On Wednesday 11 October 2006 06:16, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Windoze bashers have little credibility with users if you're trying to show them the world of Linux.
Linux has its own identity. Linux is not successful because Windoze is BAD. Its successful because IT IS GOOD. Linux should NOT be considered the best amongst the worst. Its should simply be the best in absolute terms.
Particularly if u want to avoid the free beer argument and earn $$. Also imo the "M$ bashing" here is not to be used as is in any marketing spiel but tactfully woven into your marketing story, which i presume everybody does. Use "bashing" as is and u are going to be switched out, as u pointed out, or loose out fully justified $$.
I always start with the freedom part (again suitable woven into the mktg story). U know basic managment theory mandates freedom - multiple sources Flexibilty - need the sources Reliability - heh heh Cost effective - impossible if any one of the above is missing.
so if u are unable to sell u havent done your homework or u have a very managment theory challenged customer.
On Wednesday 11 October 2006 04:35, jtd wrote:
Particularly if u want to avoid the free beer argument and earn $$. Also imo the "M$ bashing" here is not to be used as is in any marketing spiel but tactfully woven into your marketing story, which i presume everybody does. Use "bashing" as is and u are going to be switched out, as u pointed out, or loose out fully justified $$.
Yes exactly what I am saying. I just get tired of people bashing Windoze all the time. It gets to you after a while, trust me. They have to stop acting like zealots and behave more like professionals.
On Wednesday 11 October 2006 03:14, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
. If you dont like Windoze running on your laptop / branded desktop you can say NO to the license agreement when you switch on your machine for the first time. Format the disk and ask for a refund from M$.
Ever tried it?. M$ faced a class action suit in USA for refusing to refund.
On 10/11/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
On Wednesday 11 October 2006 03:14, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
. If you dont like Windoze running on your laptop / branded desktop you can say NO to the license agreement when you switch on your machine for the first time. Format the disk and ask for a refund from M$.
Ever tried it?. M$ faced a class action suit in USA for refusing to refund.
I tried it didn't work. That was 3 years back. I had no choice but to get a laptop with windows pre-loaded.
Relevant Links here are : http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1125565512481
<quote> Among targeted practices was Microsoft's requirement that computer manufacturers agree to pay a licensing fee to Microsoft for each computer shipped, regardless of the operating system. The practice discouraged manufacturers from installing any operating systems besides Microsoft's. Consumer plaintiffs have claimed such practices harmed them by denying them choice and inflating prices. </quote>
Another article: Microsoft faces class action suit over WGA tool http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/06/30/HNmicrosoftwgasuit_1.html?COMPLIAN...
-- Vinayak
krishnakant Mane wrote:
and I am also convincing people (and sorry to be harsh for those m$ fans), that m$ windows is nothing but a biggest spyware and virus in itself. and I am also finding good ways of proving it. give them their own statement of internet surffing and they ask me "I never uploaded so much information, how is this number so high?" afterall when you install a spyware called windows on your machine this is what happens.
While I agree with the fact that windows *attracts* viruses and spyware like flies getting attracted to decaying fruit. But I disagree with statements that the Windows OS itself is a spyware. Windows by default has automatic updates security enabled, just as Debian has when it looks for security updates on the repos while installation. There are other linux distros too that check the net for updates, on post installation. As an extra measure, M$ has the WGA package to check for pirated products, which it is in its right to do so. Those who use genuine M$ products have nothing to fear.
Regards,
Rony.
___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com
On 07/10/06 00:44 +0530, Rony wrote: <snip>
As an extra measure, M$ has the WGA package to check for pirated products, which it is in its right to do so. Those who use genuine M$ products have nothing to fear.
Have you looked at the false positive rate for WGA? And people were not informed about it contacting Microsoft regularly. Definitely spyware.
Devdas Bhagat
On 07/10/06, Devdas Bhagat devdas@dvb.homelinux.org wrote:
Have you looked at the false positive rate for WGA? And people were not informed about it contacting Microsoft regularly. Definitely spyware.
yes devdas, thanks for that point, I just forgot to mention about it. and this is not gnu/linux fanatisam, this is reality. dinesh, if that sounded childish then what does m$ sound to you, probably a drugg trader? they will give you first dose of windows free quite often. and secondly does m$ themselves use windows or unix for their critical data? there are people on this list who still duel boot their computers with windows, and they too will know after they read the ISP statements for their internet usage. how did the upload rise to such an extent? and if my statement of windows being spyware herts any one then if I quote Dr. Richard Stolman he exactly said the same thing when he spoke at the SNDT hall just last month. he too claimed windows to be a spywhere. so at least I have the king of free software himself supporting my own words. it is not that I am as great as he is, it is just that I just spoke what is reality. I think clever people on this list can very well understand that it is just because m$ does not want to show that they except free software that they don't use gnu/linux any where (as they say ). but unix is still non windows. and they use it for their critical data. a drugg seller sees to it that his child never becomes an adict. so m$ does not want to adict their own organisation with windows at critical places.
Sometime on Sat, Oct 07, 2006 at 12:44:37AM +0530, Rony said:
While I agree with the fact that windows *attracts* viruses and spyware like flies getting attracted to decaying fruit. But I disagree with statements that the Windows OS itself is a spyware. Windows by default has automatic updates security enabled, just as Debian has when it looks for security updates on the repos while installation. There are other linux distros too that check the net for updates, on post installation.
Debian *downloads* security updates from its mirrors. There are very few packages in debian that *upload* your system's state, and that too by keeping user informed about it. Like say, debian popcon.
But user has no chance of knowing what details Windows WGA is *uploading*. Forget about informing him.
Anurag
On 07/10/06, Anurag anurag@gnuer.org wrote:
Debian *downloads* security updates from its mirrors. There are very few packages in debian that *upload* your system's state, and that too by keeping user informed about it. Like say, debian popcon.
the point here is not of checking for updates or downloading some thing on the pc. as anurag rightly said the user is well informed. and since gnu/linux is gpl as it is the reason why m$ does updates and why gnu/linux packages are updated are totally different. m$ just wants to put more bugs in the system and take information from your system that's all, because it is their business.
But user has no chance of knowing what details Windows WGA is *uploading*. Forget about informing him.
yes anurag, right. and again this is not childish or linux fanatism, it is a reality. Krishnakant.
On Saturday 07 October 2006 13:51, krishnakant Mane wrote:
m$ just wants to put more bugs in the system and take information from your system that's all, because it is their business.
This is going too far methinks.
On Saturday 07 October 2006 08:21, krishnakant Mane wrote:
and again this is not childish or linux fanatism, it is a reality.
Then why are 90% of the worlds PC's still running Windoze? Look, I am definitely NOT in the Windoze camp but this is just going too far. You do realize that by making such statements you're not doing the Linux community any good. You're just proving the Windoze guys right who consider Linux users as a "religious cult" which is trying to convert everyone to Linux.
If Linux is suitable for the users, they will migrate on their own. All we can do is educate them - THATS IT. By making statements like - "Windoze is a BIG spyware. Windoze is malware. Windoze SUCKS!!! Linux ROCKSS!!!" will just make them stick to Windows. Show them facts, figures and they'll immediate think twice before using Windows.
For all the RMS and Linus fans out there, remember that these guys are in no way good marketing guys. They are just hackers/techies. Once in a while they too make mistakes. To err is human and RMS/Linus both are humans afterall. So they sometimes make statements which may do more harm than good. I personally think people of RMS' stature shouldn't be making such statements since he knows all too well that Linux community has a lot of "over enthusiastic" people who will take his words literally. So, think with your brains and dont follow around these guys blindly. Afterall, FOSS is all about making an informed choice.
And please try not to get into Linux vs Windoze flame wars. There have been one too many - even on this list.
On 07/10/06 14:43 +0000, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Saturday 07 October 2006 08:21, krishnakant Mane wrote:
and again this is not childish or linux fanatism, it is a reality.
Then why are 90% of the worlds PC's still running Windoze? Look, I am
Possibly because Microsoft used illegal means to get PC manufacturers to ship only Microsoft based operating systems (until the anti-trust lawsuit).
definitely NOT in the Windoze camp but this is just going too far. You do realize that by making such statements you're not doing the Linux community any good. You're just proving the Windoze guys right who consider Linux users as a "religious cult" which is trying to convert everyone to Linux.
The nastiest way to deal with Windows users is to refuse to support MS Office formats. *Shrug*. As long as _you_ (generic you) support MS Office formats, and reimplement MS protocols, you are supporting the Microsoft empire.
Oh, and RMS is a politician. Did you make the mistake of thinking that the FSF was a _technical_ foundation?
Devdas Bhagat
On Saturday 07 October 2006 13:56, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
Possibly because Microsoft used illegal means to get PC manufacturers to ship only Microsoft based operating systems (until the anti-trust lawsuit).
I am well aware of the arm twisting tactics that M$ has employed over the years. I had stated that figure as a fact.
The nastiest way to deal with Windows users is to refuse to support MS Office formats. *Shrug*. As long as _you_ (generic you) support MS Office formats, and reimplement MS protocols, you are supporting the Microsoft empire.
May be someone should run rm -Rf on samba eh? haha. But then it'll just mean that Linux will perish from the desktop market.
Oh, and RMS is a politician. Did you make the mistake of thinking that the FSF was a _technical_ foundation?
He is not a politician or a marketing guy or the "spokes person" of FSF. Thats exactly why he should be careful about what he says. Diplomacy can get you anywhere - well almost ;)
On Saturday 07 October 2006 06:11, Anurag wrote:
But user has no chance of knowing what details Windows WGA is *uploading*. Forget about informing him.
I guess but then again, you are registered with M$ even before WGA kicks in. WGA sends only a subset of info that you have passed on to M$.
Can we please stop beating the dead horse and get back to doing something productive?
On Saturday 07 October 2006 00:44, Rony wrote:
While I agree with the fact that windows *attracts* viruses and spyware like flies getting attracted to decaying fruit. But I disagree with statements that the Windows OS itself is a spyware. Windows by default has automatic updates security enabled, just as Debian has
Debian ASKS u about using the updates on security.debian.org. AND there is no auto update u have to manually update. Also debian does not send anything if u choose to update. It just downloads. Any software that sends ANYTHING about itself or the machine without asking is spyware. M$ sends info not just about itself but about EVERY piece of software in the registry.
when it looks for security updates on the repos while installation. There are other linux distros too that check the net for updates, on post installation.
Which is completely different from sending YOUR info ENCRYPTED so that u cant read what is being sent.
As an extra measure, M$ has the WGA package to check for pirated products, which it is in its right to do so. Those who use genuine M$ products have nothing to fear.
Really?. Read my ealier post. The guys whose pc's were screwed had legal versions on their machines. Besides no software can be allowed to do anything on my machine without my explicit permission and it's got nothing to do with their rights. It's about my rights to the property that i own. If they think i have illegal software come with a court order and check $$$-EE (KG are u brushing up on legal skills ;-)).
On Saturday 07 October 2006 11:00, jtd wrote:
Really?. Read my ealier post. The guys whose pc's were screwed had legal versions on their machines. Besides no software can be allowed to do anything on my machine without my explicit permission and it's got nothing to do with their rights. It's about my rights to the
If you're concerned about it then /dont/ buy their software. Look for alternatives. When you buy their software you have to put up with their nonsense.
On Saturday 07 October 2006 22:17, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Saturday 07 October 2006 11:00, jtd wrote:
Really?. Read my ealier post. The guys whose pc's were screwed had legal versions on their machines. Besides no software can be allowed to do anything on my machine without my explicit permission and it's got nothing to do with their rights. It's about my rights to the
If you're concerned about it then /dont/ buy their software. Look for alternatives. When you buy their software you have to put up with their nonsense.
Small correction. I dont use xp and dont buy their software for my use. But that does not change the fact that it's screwing people's systems.
I think there are some mis leading facts being posted on this list. I had also cleared this point previously. but I am doing it again for those who are new to gnu/linux. firstly, this concept of free software is not just over inthu and fun. secondly gnu/linux may have originated from the labs where "hackers " work. I don't know how does one compare that developers from the non- free software school of thought are any time better than your so called hackers. why is always hacking shown some thing stupid and time pass? and by the way this operating system has multiple brands. so it has huge commertial support. and 90% of desktops still run windows? may be I don't know, ceneor people like anurag, or jtd may comment on that. but one thing I know is that 75 persent of corporate servers run non-windows systems. and unfortunately many don't declare their usage of gnu/linux may be more testimonials are required. no matter what, firstly if the tone of some people is "afterall it is a project of bunch of hackers", it sounds as if they are always one step behind the reality. if so then why has this "bunch of hackers" developed a virus free operating system? talking about OS if windows is developed by non-hackers who r very brillient then why are there unstability related issues and viruses. I only have one request. Please don't spread fear, uncertainty and doubt amongst those who intend to shift to gnu/linux. showing what is bad in windows is rather a service to them. I often here a typicle statement "I am a big supporter of gnu/linux but bla bla bla". and then list out all that will only put gnu/linux newbis away from using gnu/linux. today I agree that microsoft is slightly better in hardware support, again ceneors like jtd can send police to my office if I am wrong *smile*. but the differences are not as huge as to still use windows. some times people don't understand what is bad and good, so is it not a good thing to tell them what they are loosing by not using gnu/linux? regards. Krishnakant.
On Saturday 07 October 2006 13:13, krishnakant Mane wrote:
firstly, this concept of free software is not just over inthu and fun. secondly gnu/linux may have originated from the labs where
Concept of Free Software is awesome. Propagate the concept without shouting anti-Windoze slogans all the time. People give too much importance to Windoze while in reality its not worth giving so much importance.
"hackers " work. I don't know how does one compare that developers from the non- free software school of thought are any time better than your so called hackers. why is always hacking shown some thing stupid and time pass?
Who said that? May be people who dont understand what "hacking" is in reality. But why do you want to worry about such people any way?
and by the way this operating system has multiple brands. so it has huge commertial support. and 90% of desktops still run windows?
How long have you been using computers?
may be I don't know, ceneor people like anurag, or jtd may comment on that. but one thing I know is that 75 persent of corporate servers run non-windows systems. and unfortunately many don't declare their
Another thing, non-window != Linux. When it comes to scalability and heavy processing SUN Solaris is the defacto OS in the industry.
usage of gnu/linux may be more testimonials are required. no matter what, firstly if the tone of some people is "afterall it is a project of bunch of hackers", it sounds as if they are always one step behind the reality. if so then why has this "bunch of hackers" developed a virus free operating system?
Linux is _not_ virus *free*. Like any other piece of software out there Linux too has its own weaknesses, vulnerabilities, exploits and once in a while they do get exploited.
I only have one request. Please don't spread fear, uncertainty and doubt amongst those who intend to shift to gnu/linux. showing what is bad in windows is rather a service to them. I often here a
You need not show them how BAD windows is to get them shift to Linux. You just need to show them how GOOD Linux is.
from using gnu/linux. today I agree that microsoft is slightly better in hardware support, again ceneors like jtd can send police to
Its better not to get into the hardware support of both OSes. Reason why Windows has better hardware support is because its more widely used and hardware vendors cant survive without pleasing the people @ Redmond.
some times people don't understand what is bad and good, so is it not a good thing to tell them what they are loosing by not using gnu/linux?
Yes, its a good thing to tell them what they're losing out on but please cut down on the Windows bashing. Windows bashers DONT have any credibility. Trust me.
On 10/7/06, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
if so then why has this "bunch of hackers" developed a virus free operating system? talking about OS if windows is developed by non-hackers who r very brillient then why are there unstability related issues and viruses
With all respect let me ask you this question.. Are u saying that gnu/Linux will always be virus free? IMO Micro$oft always thinks about generating business. There was a huge market for Windows and no competitors. Anything they build would be sold. If u can keep a hole in your software so that you can patch it later by charging more money you will only create more business. Personally, I never think developers in M$ are incapable to develop good software. Its just bad motives. Managers in M$ are always after money. With that motive you can't develop good softwares. With a wrong map you can never reach the right destination..
I try to explain this to people. I do this only because I think Linux is genuine. This is possible only with good motives. If you want ppl to switch to gnu/Linux, explain their motives. I will not be happy when I realise that I being cheated.
Please correct me if I am wrong because this is the list that inspired me to use gnu/Linux.
Sometime Today, Varadarajan V assembled some asciibets to say:
With all respect let me ask you this question.. Are u saying that gnu/Linux will always be virus free? IMO Micro$oft always thinks about
It will be virus free because of the security model. Only root can write to binaries in /bin, /usr/bin, /usr/local/bin, etc. The most damage that a non-root user can do is infect his own personal binaries, but to infect the entire system, you'd have to be a bad root user.
On Monday 09 October 2006 09:33, Philip Tellis wrote:
It will be virus free because of the security model. Only root can write to binaries in /bin, /usr/bin, /usr/local/bin, etc. The most damage that a non-root user can do is infect his own personal binaries, but to infect the entire system, you'd have to be a bad root user.
Hehehe. Escalation of local previledges ( Local root escalation exploits ). :)
some very important points. the reason for obvious bashing of windows is because for new users of gnu/linux m$ has set a perfect system of creating FUD so much so that even though they want to use gnu/linux they end up using windows. this is indeed a tatfull way of shoving windows into every computer. I often here people saying "all is good in linux and we know that it is good and also read a lot about it. but then windows is windows." this is not just insult to the information technology itself but I feel that we can be slightly better than m$ in their own ways and means. when we point out that windows is not good and specially when people use it knowingly that it is not good and secured, we have to show them that they are actually right. create fud about windows so that their decision to use gnu/linux which is being hindered due to wrong facts gets firm. in the process windows gets obvious bashing for the kind of wrong FUD they are spreading about gnu/linux. one FUD being spread even on this thread unfortunately is that "what is the proof that linux will stay virus free? " My answer to this is that even windows can be virus free. I will give the technical details off the list if some one wants it but who ever complies to the posex standard is bound to be virus free. even windows can be. and the system is developed in such a way that virus can't enter in the gnu/linux system. and now please don't rant me by saying "gnu/linux is not ppopular so no virus". that is a typicle answer from the slave of Master Bil. I again request people not to further enhance the FUD already being spread by m$ about gnu/linux. this is a special request who love m$, because there are smart people on this list like devdas and jtd who will show how wrong you are. and the discussion here is not about m$ in particular. it is about non-free software and the fact that free software is no way less efficient and "less secured" than the non-free software. they are also well supported and as Dinesh Joshi rightly said, if you want to go for gnu/linux please don't care what the FUD and roomer spreaders of m$ do. gnu/linux is much much better supported and much high in standards in terms of quality and stability. if any one wants proofs to this, email me off the list. thanks and regards. Krishnakant. "do you know what does the number 2000 stand for in windows 2000? it is the number of times your computer is likely to hang every day".
On Wednesday 11 October 2006 06:11, krishnakant Mane wrote:
from the slave of Master Bil.
mmhhmmm...
krishnakant, the best way to attract people to Linux is to just keep ones mouth shut. Atleast thats what I learnt over the last 3 years. Everytime something goes wrong with a M$ system ( and trust me it does very often ) and someone asks me for help, I simply tell them "I cant help you but 1) Such a thing never happens on Linux. 2) if anything like this ever happened, I would've helped you if you were using Linux".
After a while they get a clear and strong message :)
On 11-Oct-06, at 9:54 PM, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Everytime something goes wrong with a M$ system ( and trust me it does very often ) and someone asks me for help,
i say - sorry, last time i worked on windows is in 1996 - so cant help you
On 09/10/06 11:02 +0200, Varadarajan V wrote:
On 10/7/06, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
if so then why has this "bunch of hackers" developed a virus free operating system? talking about OS if windows is developed by non-hackers who r very brillient then why are there unstability related issues and viruses
With all respect let me ask you this question.. Are u saying that gnu/Linux will always be virus free? IMO Micro$oft always thinks about
GNU/Linux will be virus free. After all, it takes more than the GNU software and the Linux kernel for a virus to gain hold. Finally though, security is in the hands of the administrator, and most end users are _not_ administrators by choice.
If you have the power to destroy the system, you have the responsibility not to.
generating business. There was a huge market for Windows and no competitors. Anything they build would be sold. If u can keep a hole
No competitors? Let me introduce you to DR-DOS. There were a whole bunch of competitors, who were kept off the PC market by using illegal means.
in your software so that you can patch it later by charging more money
Please keep in mind that Microsoft does not charge for patching. They do charge for OS upgrades, but not for bugfixes. They will charge you for support though, and every bug report is treated like a support request until the bug is confirmed.
you will only create more business. Personally, I never think developers in M$ are incapable to develop good software. Its just bad motives.
Microsoft has some of the best developers in the world. They have a sales team which is focussed on sales, and they develop exactly enough for people to upgrade to the next version. Note the reasons why Microsoft is having problems getting people to upgrade to newer versions of MS Office and MS Windows, the older versions are good enough.
Managers in M$ are always after money. With that motive you can't develop good softwares.
There is nothing wrong in being after money. The problem is when you decide to break the law for it. Keep in mind that the market does not pay for security. It pays for features. Now that the major players (read: enterprises) actually have most of the features they need, they are asking hard questions about "security" and making noises about switching to Linux in order to get price cuts.
With a wrong map you can never reach the right destination..
I try to explain this to people. I do this only because I think Linux is genuine. This is possible only with good motives.
Personally, I prefer to let people run what they want. When they have Windows problems, I simply refuse to provide support.
Again, there is DRM.
Devdas Bhagat
On 10/9/06, Devdas Bhagat devdas@dvb.homelinux.org wrote:
No competitors? Let me introduce you to DR-DOS. There were a whole bunch of competitors, who were kept off the PC market by using illegal means.
Thats new information for me.
Please keep in mind that Microsoft does not charge for patching. They do charge for OS upgrades, but not for bugfixes.
Yes. I understand. Though I love linux, trying to learn better and hoping to be good enough to get a job in linux administration, am still a Windows server administrator. I wish soon I would be able to switch to linux. Coming to the point, what I meant is that M$ is not only creating business for themselves but also for others... I read a research article that said its been found that the size, memory and the required processing power to run Windows is too high when compared to the features delivered by it, also called as bloatware, which only means the hardware vendors always have a market to sell whatever they manufacture. This, they say is an understanding between M$ and Intel. If it is true..that is a bad motive.
There is nothing wrong in being after money.
Yes. I agree. But this is valid only as long as they deliver enough value for the money that I pay. I am ready to pay money, give me quality.
Personally, I prefer to let people run what they want. When they have Windows problems, I simply refuse to provide support.
I too believe we don't have to convince people to use linux. But we should definitely tell them what it can do for them. And when they ask questions "hey why not Windows" we do have to explain what's wrong in windows.
Yes. I understand. Though I love linux, trying to learn better and hoping to be good enough to get a job in linux administration, am still a Windows server administrator. I wish soon I would be able to switch to linux. Coming to the point, what I meant is that M$ is not only creating business for themselves but also for others... I read a research article that said its been found that the size, memory and the required processing power to run Windows is too high when compared to the features delivered by it, also called as bloatware, which only means the hardware vendors always have a market to sell whatever they manufacture. This, they say is an understanding between M$ and Intel. If it is true..that is a bad motive.
yes that's indeed a bad motive and end result is even I am a customer and I don't want to get into this trap. being a business man myself, I think from the customer's point of view. I will like to earn money and name like tata's not like some one who cheets people and earns out of that. any ways open and free software is much much better then non-freesoftware. I just got a recent example of a drawing software called inkscape and when I compared it with the features of coral draw, I find coral draw could only come close even with its latest version. there are many such examples and I think people should rather pay such projects and get the money's worth. regards. Krishnakant.
On Monday 09 October 2006 09:50, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
GNU/Linux will be virus free. After all, it takes more than the GNU software and the Linux kernel for a virus to gain hold. Finally though, security is in the hands of the administrator, and most end users are _not_ administrators by choice.
This is precisely the kind of attitude that makes Linux users fall flat on their faces. Dude, be realistic, any system is NOT perfectly secure. There are always bugs around so there are always ways and means to exploit them. Granted Linux is inherently more secure than windows and its a pain to write viruses but that doesnt mean there are NO viruses or a Linux system is /perfectly/ secure. As you have pointed out yourself later on incompetent, irresponsible admins / users can mess up any system.
Varadarajan V wrote:
Personally, I never think developers in M$ are incapable to develop good software. Its just bad motives. Managers in M$ are always after money. With that motive you can't develop good softwares. With a wrong map you can never reach the right destination..
I feel the same about bugs in M$
Regards,
Rony.
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On Saturday 07 October 2006 12:29, jtd wrote:
If you're concerned about it then /dont/ buy their software. Look for alternatives. When you buy their software you have to put up with their nonsense.
Small correction. I dont use xp and dont buy their software for my use. But that does not change the fact that it's screwing people's systems.
I didnt mean you as in you, personally. I meant if a user is concerned about it then...
jtd wrote:
On Saturday 07 October 2006 00:44, Rony wrote:
While I agree with the fact that windows *attracts* viruses and spyware like flies getting attracted to decaying fruit. But I disagree with statements that the Windows OS itself is a spyware. Windows by default has automatic updates security enabled, just as Debian has
Debian ASKS u about using the updates on security.debian.org. AND there is no auto update u have to manually update. Also debian does not send anything if u choose to update. It just downloads. Any software that sends ANYTHING about itself or the machine without asking is spyware. M$ sends info not just about itself but about EVERY piece of software in the registry.
I have first hand experience with Debian 3.1 installation at my place as well as at Krish's. Even when I chose to go for CD install of packages, since my net was on, *without* my consent, Debian accessed its servers and pumped in 120 MB of updates that took 1.12 hrs to download before the installation went further. At Krish's place, luckily his net was not up and Debian messages had an error of the security updates server not accessible and then went on to download packages from the CD.
As an extra measure, M$ has the WGA package to check for pirated products, which it is in its right to do so. Those who use genuine M$ products have nothing to fear.
Really?. Read my ealier post. The guys whose pc's were screwed had legal versions on their machines.
They had illegal version of other M$ software like office xp. Otherwise it is a bug issue that will get resolved as it gets reported by the users. We do have bugs in Linux too.
If they think i have illegal software come with a court order and check $$$-EE (KG are u brushing up on legal skills ;-)).
They do mention that the WGA will check the system for genuine software and if we don't want to have that software downloaded, we have a choice not to do so. Of course no more access to updates. I have kept my XP upto date right from the time it was installed 4-5 years ago. I chose to download WGA voluntarily when I was given the choice.
Regards,
Rony.
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