This is an email I am circulatting from lugc mailist list:
Hello all,
When I looked to buy a branded laptop, I felt much bad that I can customize a laptop *BUT* I MUST select a M$ operating system. And this really is like forcing us to pay money even if we do not want to buy it. Is there any talks before this post or is there a way to buy a branded laptop (like HP, DELL or a sony vaio).
If there is no way, why are we not even trying to make a way?
and also see http://www.mca.gov.in/Ministry/mrtpc.html
In a depressed mood
2011/1/22 Abhijit Navale abhijit.foss@gmail.com:
When I looked to buy a branded laptop, I felt much bad that I can customize a laptop *BUT* I MUST select a M$ operating system.
I have seen any number of laptops from various brands in my local Croma store that has no OS (or rather, with some primitive OS like FreeDOS).
Alternatively, you can buy with the MS OS, refuse to accept the EULA, and then apply for a refund. This is about as easy as trying to attempting to scale the Everest with a bicycle.
Binand
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Binand Sethumadhavan binand@gmail.com wrote:
2011/1/22 Abhijit Navale abhijit.foss@gmail.com:
When I looked to buy a branded laptop, I felt much bad that I can customize a laptop *BUT* I MUST select a M$ operating system.
I have seen any number of laptops from various brands in my local Croma store that has no OS (or rather, with some primitive OS like FreeDOS).
Such availability is not a given be it Croma or Lam. Rd. distributors. The scenario keeps varying. A couple of months ago, my distributor was offering Dell Inspirons with no OS but not anymore.
As for getting a refund back by refusing the MS EULA - good luck.
-- Arun Khan
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 11:35:21AM +0530, Binand Sethumadhavan wrote:
2011/1/22 Abhijit Navale abhijit.foss@gmail.com:
When I looked to buy a branded laptop, I felt much bad that I can customize a laptop *BUT* I MUST select a M$ operating system.
I have seen any number of laptops from various brands in my local Croma store that has no OS (or rather, with some primitive OS like FreeDOS).
Alternatively, you can buy with the MS OS, refuse to accept the EULA, and then apply for a refund. This is about as easy as trying to attempting to scale the Everest with a bicycle.
Any chance this [0] can happen in India too?
[0] http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2011/01/24/italy_consumers_sue_microsoft/
2011/1/26 Nitesh Mistry mailbox@mistrynitesh.net:
Any chance this [0] can happen in India too?
[0] http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2011/01/24/italy_consumers_sue_microsoft/
Not in the near future. India doesn't have a "watchdog" that is out to protect consumers. Also, the concept of class action lawsuits is yet to be introduced (though I have been hearing of these for a few years now).
http://www.business-standard.com/india/storypage.php?autono=302258
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
I see that you have chosen to ignore advice.
Binand
2011/1/22 Abhijit Navale abhijit.foss@gmail.com:
and also see http://www.mca.gov.in/Ministry/mrtpc.html
BTW, forgot to mention - the MRTPC is on its way out. It is a prime example of Indian bureaucracy's regulator-without-teeth problem. See:
http://www.businessworld.in/bw/2009_09_12_Curtains_Down_On_MRTPC.html
The replacement, CCI - Competition Commission of India - is supposed to be better. The act was passed in 2002, but we still don't have a 100% functional commission even in 2011 - so I don't have much hopes here either.
Binand
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 7:15 PM, Abhijit Navale abhijit.foss@gmail.comwrote:
When I looked to buy a branded laptop, I felt much bad that I can customize a laptop *BUT* I MUST select a M$ operating system. And this really is like forcing us to pay money even if we do not want to buy it. Is there any talks before this post or is there a way to buy a branded laptop (like HP, DELL or a sony vaio).
If there is no way, why are we not even trying to make a way?
Its tough to get such a laptop from a US based company.
Reason is, cost of $50 - $70 (approx additional cost of Windows 7) is not significant in US /EU markets. With Office 2010's barebone version available for free on these laptops, most customers prefer a laptop that comes with Windows and MS Office.
And markets like India are not large enough for these to invest and develop a model without OS. These companies might have one or two Linux models, but that is just for namesake.
However, Asian companies like MSI, ASUS do have laptops without OS.
-Shamit
On 01/24/2011 06:30 PM, Shamit Verma wrote:
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 7:15 PM, Abhijit Navaleabhijit.foss@gmail.comwrote:
When I looked to buy a branded laptop, I felt much bad that I can customize a laptop *BUT* I MUST select a M$ operating system. And this really is like forcing us to pay money even if we do not want to buy it. Is there any talks before this post or is there a way to buy a branded laptop (like HP, DELL or a sony vaio).
If there is no way, why are we not even trying to make a way?
Its tough to get such a laptop from a US based company.
*sigh*
Since this mail was forwarded from an ILUGC thread without a link to the original, I'm adding it here:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/pipermail/ilugc/2011-January/thread.html#63638
Also, pasting part of my replies in that thread:
It amazing the regularity with which this question keeps coming up on this list and despite the fact that there are already a number of laptops available that come with linux preinstalled, this myth that there isn't is perpetuated from people within this community.
... ...
I was annoyed enough to do a quick search(*) and bury this myth of not being able to find a linux laptop locally. Here you go:
http://delllaptopprice.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&...
So, can we please stop telling people it is impossible ?
and finally Rahul Sundaram's view ...
These days, the options are getting much better and will continue to progress forward if more people just ask their vendors first and if they refuse, let them know that you choose another vendor because of this and this will add up momentum. Businesses care about the bottom line and take sales loss into account and will change their strategy accordingly.
Please check the other responses in the thread as well.
cheers, - steve
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 7:49 PM, steve steve@lonetwin.net wrote:
*sigh*
Since this mail was forwarded from an ILUGC thread without a link to the original, I'm adding it here:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/pipermail/ilugc/2011-January/thread.html#63638
Also, pasting part of my replies in that thread:
It amazing the regularity with which this question keeps coming up on
this list
and despite the fact that there are already a number of laptops available
that
come with linux preinstalled, this myth that there isn't is perpetuated
from
people within this community.
... ...
I was annoyed enough to do a quick search(*) and bury this myth of not
being
able to find a linux laptop locally. Here you go:
http://delllaptopprice.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&...
So, can we please stop telling people it is impossible ?
and finally Rahul Sundaram's view ...
These days, the options are getting much better and will continue to progress forward if more people just ask their vendors first and if they refuse, let them know that you choose another vendor because of this and this will add up momentum. Businesses care about the bottom line and take sales loss into account and will change their strategy accordingly.
Please check the other responses in the thread as well.
All models listed on these pages are old C2D Dell models. None of current models are available at reasonable prices.
For example, Laptop that I am using right now has i5 CPU, 6 GB RAM, 3 year warranty (Dell Studio 1558). Its cost was $900.
Its simply not possible to purchase Laptops without OS (or with Linux) at these price points.
Prices of Windows laptops :
http://www.deals2buy.com/deals/yesnq94amdj2ah9fslmkna5tq8l8ugs7jf36kaznu28wm...
($700 for i3, 1 GB Video card, Studio 1558)
Have you ever seen laptops without Windows selling for more than such discounts on MRP?
-Shamit
On Wednesday 26 January 2011 12:06 AM, Shamit Verma wrote:
All models listed on these pages are old C2D Dell models. None of current models are available at reasonable prices.
For example, Laptop that I am using right now has i5 CPU, 6 GB RAM, 3 year warranty (Dell Studio 1558). Its cost was $900.
Its simply not possible to purchase Laptops without OS (or with Linux) at these price points.
Prices of Windows laptops :
http://www.deals2buy.com/deals/yesnq94amdj2ah9fslmkna5tq8l8ugs7jf36kaznu28wm...
($700 for i3, 1 GB Video card, Studio 1558)
Have you ever seen laptops without Windows selling for more than such discounts on MRP?
Guys, Acer is already available with quite some models with Linux pre-loaded. Of course this command line Linux is useless and is generally referred to as DOS. You get i-core and older. The only problem is that some people may be allergic to Acer. Otherwise it is a good buy. :-)
On Monday 24 January 2011 18:30:57 Shamit Verma wrote:
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 7:15 PM, Abhijit Navale
abhijit.foss@gmail.comwrote:
When I looked to buy a branded laptop, I felt much bad that I can customize a laptop *BUT* I MUST select a M$ operating system. And this really is like forcing us to pay money even if we do not want to buy it. Is there any talks before this post or is there a way to buy a branded laptop (like HP, DELL or a sony vaio).
If there is no way, why are we not even trying to make a way?
Its tough to get such a laptop from a US based company.
Reason is, cost of $50 - $70 (approx additional cost of Windows 7) is not significant in US /EU markets. With Office 2010's barebone version available for free on these laptops, most customers prefer a laptop that comes with Windows and MS Office.
And markets like India are not large enough for these to invest and develop a model without OS.
Logical error. You dont dvelop a model without os. You simply sell whatever model without OS. The reason they dont do it is because M$ signs deals that subsidises ads, and M$ products very very heavily, while charging for every machine shipped. ASUS was forced to stop the EEPC cause M$ showed them the agreement fine print (stick) and plenty of carrots.
These companies might have one or two Linux models, but that is just for namesake.
True. Again primarily to ward off anti monopoly lawsuites.
However, Asian companies like MSI, ASUS do have laptops without OS.
Again a miniscule few.
On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 3:09 PM, Swapnil swapnil.bhartiya@gmail.com wrote:
True. Again primarily to ward off anti monopoly lawsuites.
Is there anything we can do to ensure more companies are forced to offer GNU/Linux as well as MS options?
yes. whenever I go to shops, be in the airport or lamington road, whether I buy or not I go and ask them what I want. "do you have a laptop that runs GNU/Linux OS? obviously they don't understand. I take that opportunity to tell them. since I do this so often, at least once they recall that some people need this OS on their laptops. when ever you pass by shops keep asking what you want them to sell. since they are interested in selling, they might in future tell the dealers that some people are asking for machines without OS. or with GNU/Linux.
btw, we buy lots of laptops and desktops at our office without OS (freeDOS) from companies such as Dell, HCL, HP, Cannoi, ...
If there is a buyer there will be a seller.
-- GN
On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Nagarjuna G nagarjun@gnu.org.in wrote:
btw, we buy lots of laptops and desktops at our office without OS (freeDOS) from companies such as Dell, HCL, HP, Cannoi, ...
If there is a buyer there will be a seller.
Absolutely! but .... Institutional/Corporate/Enterprise purchasers have this clout.
Perhaps the ELCOT (TN) model [1] initiated by the then head, Uma Shankar in 2008. From what I recall every major brand wanted to have their "solution" in the program that met ELCOT's specs (FOSS).
A similar model could work if some institution(s) step forward and starts such a program for taking individual orders and negotiate with the major brands.
[1] Students in TN could buy a laptop for about 30K (IIRC) [all devices were supposed to work with Linux (Ubuntu and openSUSE were the distros).
-- Arun Khan
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 9:19 PM, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
Logical error. You dont dvelop a model without os. You simply sell whatever model without OS. The reason they dont do it is because M$ signs deals that subsidises ads, and M$ products very very heavily, while charging for every machine shipped. ASUS was forced to stop the EEPC cause M$ showed them the agreement fine print (stick) and plenty of carrots.
You need to develop that product because:
1. Without OS, remote diagnostic tools wont work and they would have to pay for two-way shipping for diagnosis (or dispatch a tech). This adds to cost. BIOS of such models is much more exhaustive. E.g. BIOS has HDD diagnostics tools/network diag tools. 2. Tech Support is hard to script. With OS, most problems can be solved by "Restore factory image" 3. They lose revenue from "Crapplets". Every trial version (E.g. 90 days subscription for anti virus) means revenue for Dell/HP.
Thats why when you buy laptops without OS (available for enterprise, typically order of few thousand Units) these cost more. That is even when tech support is handled by Organization's IT.
-Shamit
On Tuesday 25 January 2011 23:34:48 Shamit Verma wrote:
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 9:19 PM, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
Logical error. You dont dvelop a model without os. You simply sell whatever model without OS. The reason they dont do it is because M$ signs deals that subsidises ads, and M$ products very very heavily, while charging for every machine shipped. ASUS was forced to stop the EEPC cause M$ showed them the agreement fine print (stick) and plenty of carrots.
You need to develop that product because:
- Without OS, remote diagnostic tools wont work and they would
have to pay for two-way shipping for diagnosis (or dispatch a tech). This adds to cost. BIOS of such models is much more exhaustive. E.g. BIOS has HDD diagnostics tools/network diag tools.
Inband Remote diagnostic tools work only for a small subset of problems.
- Tech Support is hard to script. With OS, most problems can be
solved by "Restore factory image"
you mean most problems are conned over.
- They lose revenue from "Crapplets". Every trial version (E.g.
90 days subscription for anti virus) means revenue for Dell/HP.
True
Thats why when you buy laptops without OS (available for enterprise, typically order of few thousand Units) these cost more. That is even when tech support is handled by Organization's IT.
That is true too. But none of the above requires "designing" hardware to run without OS. ALL hardware are software agostic. Stupid / crooked hardware vendors then proceed to hide the architecture, register and bug details, preventing software implementation. On the contrary, In the case of virtualisation M$ products actually did not have the neccessary architecture to exploit hardware features and would be termed as incapable of running on certain hardware whose details are available. I have yet to come accross such a situation for FOSS.
-Shamit
On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 12:25 PM, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
That is true too. But none of the above requires "designing" hardware to run without OS.
Its not about hardware. Almost any hardware can be sold without OS.
Question is, can that be done with profit? A post on this topic from ./
http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1964690&cid=34988934
-Shamit
-
Abhijit Navale -
Arun Khan -
Binand Sethumadhavan -
jtd -
Nagarjuna G -
Nitesh Mistry -
Rony -
Shamit Verma -
steve -
Swapnil