This list cannot and will not be an umbrella for fanaticism of any kind. We have to learn to me moderate and tolerable. Treating polotical voilence/suppression with non-voilence gave india what you and i treasure the most. Lets learn something from old frail man with a vision who none of us can match but look up to.
i second trevor's thoughts on being more tolerant. our motto for the movement is to spread it's popularity. i understand the anarchic nature of linux hacker coz i have been in the community for some time, a new comer does not understand it. for him it may be an ego issue...
let us accept this fact be a lil more newcomer friendly. but not spare any oldies not tagging "[commercial]" msgs.
These are my thoughts.......we are more than a list..a movement.
well said trevor...
gurpreet
Trevor
------------------------------------ GNUrpreet Singh MPIT 1 (Nw specialization) Symbiosis Center for IT www.scit.edu
Gurpreet spake thusly:
i second trevor's thoughts on being more tolerant. our motto for the movement is to spread it's popularity. i understand the anarchic nature of linux hacker coz i have been in the community for some time, a new comer does not understand it. for him it may be an ego issue...
:D
Well, seems like the list has a few "anarchic linux hackers" which should explain the high level of 'intolerance' encountered here.
let us accept this fact be a lil more newcomer friendly. but not spare any oldies not tagging "[commercial]" msgs.
Isn't it possible for the newcomer to be regular's friendly ? ;)
After all, dont you remember that in college/school if we wanted to join a cool group, we had to adjust -- fit in, not the group. Are we really that desperate for numbers ?
I mean, the initial thrashing is like ragging. You rag the newcomers -- weed out the idiots, then the good newcomers become the regulars and join in the ragging. It's an age old tradition, for crying out aloud.
I vote for the kick-ass-and-rag-the-newcomers movement.
Gurpreet spake thusly:
i second trevor's thoughts on being more tolerant. our motto for the movement is to spread it's popularity. i understand the anarchic nature of linux hacker coz i have been in the community for some time, a new comer does not understand it. for him it may be an ego issue...
Every mailing list/newsgroup has some rules/etiquettes which every one follows. Some of them written and some unwritten. eg if you post a question on a news group which is already answered on the FAQ, be ready to get flamed. People have to know this. If getting pulled up for not following the rules, it is but natural. If the person takes it personally it is his problem not the list. Flaming is a part of this culture. The sooner the newbies learn the better. Everyone on this group was a newbie once remember.....
Last but not the least advocacy is a part of the culture and not the only motive of this group. We are not missionaries trying to spread any kind of religion but trying to have fun and help others in this process.
Hi
culture. The sooner the newbies learn the better. Everyone on this group was a newbie once remember.....
In my experience, a newbie joins a list to get some problem solved. He is more concerned about the problem than the etiqutte. I agree this is not an excuse. But can we not help him without making him feel sorry for asking a question. I am with Trevor on this one. More newbie friendly.
Regards, Vijay MPIT 2 (N/W specialization), Symbiosis Center for IT, www.scit.edu
Okay, this is a long post. You have been warned ;-)
On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 11:03:02AM +0530, Vijaya Rama Raju Alluru wrote:
culture. The sooner the newbies learn the better. Everyone on this group was a newbie once remember.....
In my experience, a newbie joins a list to get some problem solved. He is more concerned about the problem than the etiqutte. I agree this is not an excuse. But can we not help him without making him feel sorry for asking a question.
There are many ways of looking at this issue, and indeed this issue has been raised a multitude of times before. Here are some points of view (not necessarily my own):
(1) Newbie friendlyness is ok, but how do the list members feel when 20 different people ask the *same* question which is answered trivially by a simple google search on the list within a short span of time. Most newbies ask without thinking and everyone would agree that perhaps more important than solving their problem is telling them that a simple look around them (google, list archives, faqs) will give them quite a detailed solution to their trouble.
(2) There have been lists where this "no cribs, just answer question or keep mum" policy has been tried out. More often than not, things have gone to the point where, for a trivial problem, newbies treat the list as a technical support system and unleash a barrage of trivial questions. Since, in this model, they never get told to RTFM, they sometimes even go to the extent of abusing posters who eventually ask them to google search.
(3) Another model which has been tried out is that of a separate questions-only list/forum/irc/whatever which caters to these newbies. Works well apart from the fact that sufficient number of members should be willing to dedicate parts of their time and energies to be a part of such setups to really help the newbies. Or else in a bad case trivial problems escalate into heated debates between newbies when such setups lack investments from the non-newbies. All solvable with just a google search or a peek into the archives/faqs etc.
(4) Are we really helping the newbies by spoon-feeding them? In any case, does anyone STOP you from spoonfeeding an answer to a newbie who DOES ask a trivial question? I think not. So if (non-RTFM) answers to trivial questions by newbies do not come about on the MAIN list, how will they come about anywhere else?
Sorry for the long mail and thank you for your patience if you have reached this far. Feedback welcome. The objective of this post is to put forth some viewpionts and ideas that always come up in this discussion.
Discussion welcome. Of course, we are us. And we can choose to do whatever we want...
I am with Trevor on this one. More newbie friendly.
I quote Morpheus here, as I always do: "I can only show you the door Neo. You are the one who has to walk through it."
There are many ways of looking at this issue,
Cheerio ! A sensible discussion at last !
(1) Newbie friendlyness is ok, but how do the list members feel when 20 different people ask the *same* question which is answered trivially by google
Friendliness is fine. But I refuse to be someone's doormat which is what some ppl on the list like to be.
(2) There have been lists where this "no cribs, just answer question or keep mum" policy has been tried out.
Yes. And that is exactly why most ppl / veterans would be wary of answering a query in its entirety.
(3) Another model which has been tried out is that of a separate questions-only list/forum/irc/whatever which caters to these newbies.
I'll suggest something too.
(4) Are we really helping the newbies by spoon-feeding them? I think not. So if (non-RTFM) answers to trivial questions by newbies do not come about on the MAIN list, how will they come about anywhere else?
Excellent point. I'll come to this later.
In view of you points I have the foll suggestions * Somewhere in the past someone suggested a policy which the regulars can definitely abide by if not the newbies. They must first tell the newbie to RTFM , pointing out the source. Even the appropriate google query might help.
* If the newbie is so interested and yet confused to the answer, point him to the appropriate part in the source.
* still if he doesn't understand, give him the solution. This approach _was_ being followed for sometime till it degraded again.
* why can't we have a forum with the appropriate classifications ? every category of ppl (doormats too) is bound to be pleased then ? What are the things that impede such a thing ?
regards, C
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Vijaya Rama Raju Alluru spake thusly:
In my experience, a newbie joins a list to get some problem solved. He is more concerned about the problem than the etiqutte.
which should not be the case : folks here are not sitting to solve other people's problems just-like-that. This is a group. Join it. The solutions are a fringe benefit.
I agree this is not an excuse. But can we not help him without making him feel sorry for asking a question. I am with Trevor on this one. More newbie friendly.
Quasi/Vijay,
In reference to what vijay has to say i agree quasi. Over a period of time we all start loosing our patience. Its just like newly weds.....always holding hands. Over a period of time we start loosing our patience for very small issues and start nit-picking and acting very small in our own ways. Being human does mean that we all will fault at one time or another quasi. It does not mean that we shouldn't learn from our/others mistakes and prevent them from happening.
You will stick to your guns about your point of view quasi and others will to their. We are all a community about all. Do remember that, the list is just a form of technology that we make use of to be in touch. I am there today not there tomorrow....life tends to drift us apart in more than one ways.
Lets learn to accept those who were like us when we begun this great journey which now is such an integral part of our life quasi.
Trevor
===== ( >- -< ) /~\ ______________________________________ /~\ | ) / Scaling FLOSS in the Enterprise \ (/ | |_|_ \ trevorwarren@yahoo.com / _|_| ____________________________________/
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On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Trevor Warren spake thusly:
Lets learn to accept those who were like us when we begun this great journey which now is such an integral part of our life quasi.
Admirable sentiments.
Philosophy aside : #1 You are right, this is just a list. #2 We all (and ones before us) have formulated some common code of conduct by which we abide (seemingly) on this list. #3 It is not too much to ask new comers to abide by these same rules.
Imagine what happens when a villager comes into a BEST bus and spits copious quantities of saliva + beetlenut juice under the seat...
When I begun this 'great journey' (sic), I too was new, naive and plain stupid. I too got scolded by seniors. I did'nt quit. I lived and I learned. If one has to part of a group (any group - real or virtual) one need to fit into that group and not expect the group to fit into you. If it is in you, you change the group -- after you are in it.
Just my one paise's worth. I seem to be in a minority here anyway so I will not push my point. This is a free country and this is a free list. What all want, goes. If someone dont like it - go someplace else, simple.
Sometime on Aug 14, Trevor Warren assembled some asciibets to say:
Lets learn to accept those who were like us when we begun this great journey which now is such an integral part of our life quasi.
I would if I could find them. When we began this great journey, people came in for an exchange. Everyone would both give, and take, and pretty much everyone stuck to the list rules.
Today, most of the users believe that this list was formed as a free tech support hotline for them. It's not. If you want tech support, you pay for it. If you want to exchange ideas, and give as much, if not more, than what you take, then come here. It also seems that most people believe that the list rules are bullshit because they aren't in accord with their limited outlook. The rules were formed based on decades of experience and knowledge of mailing lists and usenet. The average linux user on this list has been around for what? three years?
Every now and then I drop in here and try to increase the long term benefits of this list, but everyone else seems interested only in their own short term benefits.
I'm now throwing a question out to everyone.
Do you want someone to admin/moderate/police (pick one) this list, or would you rather do it yourself, or would you like the list to be completely free? Any one of these may work. I don't know. Let the community come together and work it out.
Philip
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Chetan S -
gnurpreet＠softhome.net -
Philip Tellis -
quasi -
Trevor Warren -
Vijaya Rama Raju Alluru -
Vinayak Hegde -
Vipul Mathur