July 2008 favourite punching bag will resign from M$ as chief software architect. The orginal PR stated that he was resiginig as Chairman. But a clarification from billybaba says that he will remain chairman forever. Hopefully the rest of the garbage will remove itself too and there will be some real architecture in place of spahgetti.
On 6/17/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
July 2008 favourite punching bag will resign from M$ as chief software architect. The orginal PR stated that he was resiginig as Chairman. But a clarification from billybaba says that he will remain chairman forever. Hopefully the rest of the garbage will remove itself too and there will be some real architecture in place of spahgetti.
seems like you hate him more than you hate sco . we must thank him for proliferating computers and software to the masses. taking gui to the masses ... making things simpler that what they would have been with all nerds / geeks and self proclaimed gods of software sitting in labs ... so what if he didnot build everything on his own ... so what he wanted to earn a lot of money . ... a lot more than anyone could possibily think of ...
it is our job to take this vision in a more cleaner way ... to make computing more affordable and relilable ... to make lif e a lot more easir by improving the interfaces to computers an making them more useful to common man without putting any efforts in learning...
it is high time to grow above all the flame wars and hate mails rather focus on delivering good software for people to use. ....
-- Rgds JTD
On Saturday 17 June 2006 02:38 pm, Harsh Busa wrote:
On 6/17/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
July 2008 favourite punching bag will resign from M$ as chief software architect. The orginal PR stated that he was resiginig as Chairman. But a clarification from billybaba says that he will remain chairman forever. Hopefully the rest of the garbage will remove itself too and there will be some real architecture in place of spahgetti.
seems like you hate him more than you hate sco .
Not at all. Never met him personally and unlikely to in the forseeable future. so nothing personal about it.
we must thank him for proliferating computers and software to the masses.
Rubbish taiwanse cloners and chip fabs did that.
taking gui to the masses. .. making things simpler that what they would have been
Apple did that
with all nerds / geeks and self proclaimed gods of software sitting in labs ... so what if he didnot build everything on his own ... so what he wanted to earn a lot of money . ... a lot more than anyone could possibily think of ...
it is our job to take this vision in a more cleaner way
Are u joking what vision - robbing other's software, writing illegal contracts, being the big bully, writing software with more holes than a sieve. And that is not my concotion - it's recorded in various court judgements across the world.
... to make computing more affordable and relilable ... to make lif e a lot more easir by improving the interfaces to computers an making them more useful to common man without putting any efforts in learning...
All of which would have been a lot cheaper and easier and reliable had it not been for the aforementioned Billybaba and his cohorts' methods.
it is high time to grow above all the flame wars and hate mails rather focus on delivering good software for people to use. ....
It was not a flame mail. Just an hopeful statement that things could change for the better. All of which would have been a lot cheaper and easier and reliable had it not been for the aforementioned Billybaba and his crooked methods.
Sometime Today, j cobbled together some glyphs to say:
July 2008 favourite punching bag will resign from M$ as chief software architect. The orginal PR stated that he was resiginig as Chairman. But a clarification from billybaba says that he will remain chairman forever. Hopefully the rest of the garbage will remove itself too and there will be some real architecture in place of spahgetti.
Actually, Bill Gates is probably one of the few good technical guys at Microsoft. When Microsoft started, it was just Bill and Paul who were the smart guys.
Read joel's thoughts: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/06/16.html for some good insights.
Philip
Sometime Today, j cobbled together some glyphs to say:
taking gui to the masses. .. making things simpler that what they would have been
Apple did that
No they didn't. Apple took gui to the rich and l33t, not to the masses where it really mattered.
make computing more affordable and relilable ... to make lif e a lot more easir by improving the interfaces to computers an making them more useful to common man without putting any efforts in learning...
All of which would have been a lot cheaper and easier and reliable had it not been for the aforementioned Billybaba and his cohorts' methods.
I doubt it. The cost of computing was heading up when Microsoft entered the market. It was their self serving deal with IBM that turned costs downward by allowing clones to run the same software that IBM was running at a fraction of the cost.
Philip
On 6/17/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
On Saturday 17 June 2006 02:38 pm, Harsh Busa wrote:
On 6/17/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
July 2008 favourite punching bag will resign from M$ as chief software architect. The orginal PR stated that he was resiginig as Chairman. But a clarification from billybaba says that he will remain chairman forever. Hopefully the rest of the garbage will remove itself too and there will be some real architecture in place of spahgetti.
seems like you hate him more than you hate sco .
Not at all. Never met him personally and unlikely to in the forseeable future. so nothing personal about it.
we must thank him for proliferating computers and software to the masses.
Rubbish taiwanse cloners and chip fabs did that.
taking gui to the masses. .. making things simpler that what they would have been
Apple did that
-- apple / xerox invented / built.
with all nerds / geeks and self proclaimed gods of software sitting in labs ... so what if he didnot build everything on his own ... so what he wanted to earn a lot of money . ... a lot more than anyone could possibily think of ...
it is our job to take this vision in a more cleaner way
Are u joking what vision - robbing other's software, writing illegal contracts, being the big bully, writing software with more holes than a sieve. And that is not my concotion - it's recorded in various court judgements across the world.
you have a very very myopic and biased opinion abt sw industry and attributing all the bad things to only 1 company which maynot be correct. yes not all his business practices have been good. neither does everyone else work like angels in utopia.
also i m talking abt the fact about making computing more accessible and simpler. NOT THE WAY IN WHICH IT IS DONE. and thats where you have to understand the meaning of world CLEANER in context to the statement.
You are just being tremondously biased against microsoft which according to me is not correct.
if remember RMS words or Dr Nagarjun, the realm of propritery didnot start with MS, it started with companies trying to monetize on unix, .... other companies just made it worse ...
Do you really think if MS were to close down or opensource everything all the evil would be over ?
... to make computing more affordable and relilable ... to make lif e a lot more easir by improving the interfaces to computers an making them more useful to common man without putting any efforts in learning...
All of which would have been a lot cheaper and easier and reliable had it not been for the aforementioned Billybaba and his cohorts' methods.
it is high time to grow above all the flame wars and hate mails rather focus on delivering good software for people to use. ....
It was not a flame mail. Just an hopeful statement that things could change for the better. All of which would have been a lot cheaper and easier and reliable had it not been for the aforementioned Billybaba and his crooked methods.
I disagree ... there is more poison in your words than hope.
-- Rgds JTD
On 17/06/06 15:23 +0530, jtd wrote:
On Saturday 17 June 2006 02:38 pm, Harsh Busa wrote:
On 6/17/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
July 2008 favourite punching bag will resign from M$ as chief software architect. The orginal PR stated that he was resiginig as Chairman. But a clarification from billybaba says that he will remain chairman forever. Hopefully the rest of the garbage will remove itself too and there will be some real architecture in place of spahgetti.
seems like you hate him more than you hate sco .
Not at all. Never met him personally and unlikely to in the forseeable future. so nothing personal about it.
we must thank him for proliferating computers and software to the masses.
Rubbish taiwanse cloners and chip fabs did that.
Actually, Compaq did it by reverse engineering the IBM BIOS, and fighting a costly court case which allowed clones.
The outsourcing to Taiwan came much later.
The spread of Windows was basically propelled by Windows 95 being preloaded on a large number of cheap PCs (majorly anti-competitive actions there).
taking gui to the masses. .. making things simpler that what they would have been
Apple did that
Amiga, Apple.
with all nerds / geeks and self proclaimed gods of software sitting in labs ... so what if he didnot build everything on his own ... so what he wanted to earn a lot of money . ... a lot more than anyone could possibily think of ...
It isn't the money, it is about the amount of control exerted by MS and the way they went about obtaining their market which is a problem. Embrace, extend and extinguish. IBM in the 80s, MS in the 90s.
it is our job to take this vision in a more cleaner way
Are u joking what vision - robbing other's software, writing illegal contracts, being the big bully, writing software with more holes than a sieve. And that is not my concotion - it's recorded in various court judgements across the world.
... to make computing more affordable and relilable ... to make lif e a lot more easir by improving the interfaces to computers an making them more useful to common man without putting any efforts in learning...
All of which would have been a lot cheaper and easier and reliable had it not been for the aforementioned Billybaba and his cohorts' methods.
Definitely more variety and better quality.
Devdas Bhagat
On 17/06/06 15:36 +0530, Harsh Busa wrote: <snip>
-- apple / xerox invented / built.
Those who do not learn from history...
Xerox PARC laboratories developed the WIMP metaphor. Apple licensed it and brought GUIs to the public.
MS copied it (thankfully there were no patents on UI elements in the US then).
with all nerds / geeks and self proclaimed gods of software sitting in labs ... so what if he didnot build everything on his own ... so what he wanted to earn a lot of money . ... a lot more than anyone could possibily think of ...
it is our job to take this vision in a more cleaner way
Are u joking what vision - robbing other's software, writing illegal contracts, being the big bully, writing software with more holes than a sieve. And that is not my concotion - it's recorded in various court judgements across the world.
you have a very very myopic and biased opinion abt sw industry and attributing all the bad things to only 1 company which maynot be correct.
I don't think that JTD is blaming a single company. Only one company was mentioned in this context.
yes not all his business practices have been good. neither does everyone else work like angels in utopia.
A billion flies ...
also i m talking abt the fact about making computing more accessible and simpler. NOT THE WAY IN WHICH IT IS DONE. and thats where you have to understand the meaning of world CLEANER in context to the statement.
The end never justifies the means.
You are just being tremondously biased against microsoft which according to me is not correct.
if remember RMS words or Dr Nagarjun, the realm of propritery didnot start with MS, it started with companies trying to monetize on unix, .... other companies just made it worse ...
And that absolves Microsoft of what guilt?
Do you really think if MS were to close down or opensource everything all the evil would be over ?
I disagree that all the issues would go away. But Microsoft is the biggest symbol of what is wrong with todays computing industry.
What has Microsoft actually contributed to the computing industry? (They have excellent technical people there, they don't have management and salespeople with ethics). What creative activities has Microsoft shown to the world?
IBM was hated for trying to exert excessive control. So is MSFT.
Devdas Bhagat
On Saturday 17 June 2006 03:33 pm, Philip Tellis wrote:
Actually, Bill Gates is probably one of the few good technical guys at Microsoft. When Microsoft started, it was just Bill and Paul who were the smart guys.
There was one other (cant remeber his name or the web links) who did all the coding for the first product MS Basic written in assembly. There too in order to get some added functionality Bill forced the coder to write a loop that overwrote parts of program mem (or some such kludge). The tradition of forced kludging continues with numerous stories of Bill's personal involvement.
On 17/06/06 15:36 +0530, Philip Tellis wrote:
Sometime Today, j cobbled together some glyphs to say:
taking gui to the masses. .. making things simpler that what they would have been
Apple did that
No they didn't. Apple took gui to the rich and l33t, not to the masses where it really mattered.
That set of people got a somewhat decent GUI with Windows 3.11. Which was way after the PC became popular.
make computing more affordable and relilable ... to make lif e a lot more easir by improving the interfaces to computers an making them more useful to common man without putting any efforts in learning...
All of which would have been a lot cheaper and easier and reliable had it not been for the aforementioned Billybaba and his cohorts' methods.
I doubt it. The cost of computing was heading up when Microsoft entered the market. It was their self serving deal with IBM that turned costs downward by allowing clones to run the same software that IBM was running at a fraction of the cost.
The clones would have run other versions of DOS. DR-DOS, PC-DOS... The cost of computing was brought down by competition in the hardware market, primarily sponsored by Compaq.
And Microsoft definitely made the computing world less reliable. Blue screens of death?
Devdas Bhagat
Sometime Today, j cobbled together some glyphs to say:
There was one other (cant remeber his name or the web links) who did all the coding for the first product MS Basic written in assembly.
Bill Gates and Paul Allen wrote the code for Altair Basic for the MITS Altair 8800. Monte Davidoff wrote the floating point arithmetic routines. Allen and Gates competed with writing a boot loader. The final code ran in 4KB of memory.
That's how good these guys were.
Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altair_BASIC
Philip
Sometime Today, DB cobbled together some glyphs to say:
And Microsoft definitely made the computing world less reliable. Blue screens of death?
And what's the largest piece of code that you've written?
True that given enough eyeballs, all BSoDs would be eliminated, but as Raymond says, somethings should be opensourced and others needn't be.
On Saturday 17 June 2006 03:48 pm, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
we must thank him for proliferating computers and software to the masses.
Rubbish taiwanse cloners and chip fabs did that.
Actually, Compaq did it by reverse engineering the IBM BIOS, and fighting a costly court case which allowed clones.
The outsourcing to Taiwan came much later.
The Taiwanese were cloning the entire thing. Which was ofcourse illegal. They even sold boards without the bios eprom in an attempt to stay legal. U had to get the illegal bios rom seperately @ USD7~15. This was as late as 1984.
The spread of Windows was basically propelled by Windows 95 being preloaded on a large number of cheap PCs (majorly anti-competitive actions there).
Afafik there is a lawsuit pending agains M$ by BEOS. M$ forced NEC to remove BEOS in a dual boot system.
On Saturday 17 June 2006 03:36 pm, Philip Tellis wrote:
Sometime Today, j cobbled together some glyphs to say:
taking gui to the masses. .. making things simpler that what they would have been
Apple did that
No they didn't. Apple took gui to the rich and l33t, not to the masses where it really mattered.
At that point they were the "masses" - middle level professional earning USD35000++.
make computing more affordable and relilable ... to make lif e a lot more easir by improving the interfaces to computers an making them more useful to common man without putting any efforts in learning...
All of which would have been a lot cheaper and easier and reliable had it not been for the aforementioned Billybaba and his cohorts' methods.
I doubt it. The cost of computing was heading up when Microsoft entered the market.
U mean branded stuff. Clones were about 40% cheaper at HK. Cheaper if u assembled the stuff. And falling by the day. The clones then controlled 70% of world market. U had a whole slew of companies and apps Lotus, Ashton Tate, Word perfect, Wordstar - can't remember the C compiler vendor was it Waite. The deliberate intoduction of M$isms with malafide intent is documented in court. Most app makers died or were too weakened to compete in the app space. Thus styming innovation, and raising direct and indirect cost in the Computer industry.
On Saturday 17 June 2006 04:11 pm, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
I don't think that JTD is blaming a single company. Only one company was mentioned in this context.
Definetly not. As u point out ends justfying the means tends to become very circular leading to messes like the one that is being discussed.
yes not all his business practices have been good. neither does everyone else work like angels in utopia.
all the more reason to highilight the develish purpose (and not just M$).
A billion flies ...
also i m talking abt the fact about making computing more accessible and simpler. NOT THE WAY IN WHICH IT IS DONE. and thats where you have to understand the meaning of world CLEANER in context to the statement.
The end never justifies the means.
You are just being tremondously biased against microsoft which according to me is not correct.
if remember RMS words or Dr Nagarjun, the realm of propritery didnot start with MS, it started with companies trying to monetize on unix, .... other companies just made it worse ...
And that absolves Microsoft of what guilt?
Do you really think if MS were to close down or opensource everything all the evil would be over ?
80% of your problems will get worse then go away as people switch to the one alternative currently available. And as in any healthy eco system. Many new ones will spring up - almost by "magic". U could well be the one with that "Magic".
I disagree that all the issues would go away. But Microsoft is the biggest symbol of what is wrong with todays computing industry.
What has Microsoft actually contributed to the computing industry? (They have excellent technical people there, they don't have management and salespeople with ethics). What creative activities has Microsoft shown to the world?
Forget about contributing they have the gumption to oppose openstandards with crap argumnets and PR that deliberately tries to obfusicate the clear distinction between standards and code. Right now they have made a "contribution" of US$30million to Mass. government to "help" needy students buy M$ malware. Funny they dont offer it to everybody - only those insisting on Open standards. And in an attempt to get a future legal handle they are fast racking their version of XML in two rubber stamp "standards" organisation.
IBM was hated for trying to exert excessive control. So is MSFT.
Until Sun, DEC, Dell, Compaq AND the Taiwanese cloners with US capital almost put IBM on the mat.
Devdas Bhagat
On Saturday 17 June 2006 08:33, jtd wrote:
July 2008 favourite punching bag will resign from M$ as chief software architect. The orginal PR stated that he was resiginig as Chairman. But a clarification from billybaba says that he will remain chairman forever. Hopefully the rest of the garbage will remove itself too and there will be some real architecture in place of spahgetti.
wow...this sounds almost like a hate mail. who knows whether Billy bois replacement will be better than him?!
On Saturday 17 June 2006 04:25 pm, Philip Tellis wrote:
Sometime Today, j cobbled together some glyphs to say:
There was one other (cant remeber his name or the web links) who did all the coding for the first product MS Basic written in assembly.
Bill Gates and Paul Allen wrote the code for Altair Basic for the MITS Altair 8800. Monte Davidoff wrote the floating point arithmetic routines. Allen and Gates competed with writing a boot loader. The final code ran in 4KB of memory.
That's how good these guys were.
Yep. With kludges that jumped to the middle of a mutibyte instructions. Heshould start his coders coding in 4KB again - things might actually improve .
On Sunday 18 June 2006 01:06 am, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
I dont agree with any of you guys. But I guess M$ is responsible in a big way for stifling innovation. I think all the problems started with this:
$40000 of comp time HA HA he was using the Harvard machines gratis. And the code of fellow students according to some- including stuff from the waste paper particularly stuff that made the PDP10 execute"arbitary" instructions. Bill modified this to execute 8080 instructions. Which made theMSBasic possible. But as long as he owns the code he can charge anything he pleases. He cant make his code do things to MY pc tho.
On 17/06/06 16:27 +0530, Philip Tellis wrote:
Sometime Today, DB cobbled together some glyphs to say:
And Microsoft definitely made the computing world less reliable. Blue screens of death?
And what's the largest piece of code that you've written?
Written as a single app, about 80K lines of Perl code.
Joined together into a single complex system, and maintained it? LDAP, DHCP, Samba, IMAP (Cyrus, UW), Sendmail, Postfix, amavis, clamav, FTP (Proftpd, WU), httpd, RADIUS, a RDBMS, a backup system, custom Java, PHP and Perl applications, Tomcat, Cisco switches and routers, CMTS, remote access servers, DNS, webcaches.
True that given enough eyeballs, all BSoDs would be eliminated, but as Raymond says, somethings should be opensourced and others needn't be.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with Microsoft's code failures. I am sure those engineers at IBM have something to say about that. Or the people running HP's big iron, or Sun, or ...
Of course, MS not understanding simplicity is a well known issue. To quote Henry Spencer, those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
At least Apple simple used the BSD base directly.
Devdas Bhagat
On Saturday 17 June 2006 09:09 pm, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
On 17/06/06 16:27 +0530, Philip Tellis wrote:
Sometime Today, DB cobbled together some glyphs to say:
And Microsoft definitely made the computing world less reliable. Blue screens of death?
And what's the largest piece of code that you've written?
Written as a single app, about 80K lines of Perl code.
Joined together into a single complex system, and maintained it? LDAP, DHCP, Samba, IMAP (Cyrus, UW), Sendmail, Postfix, amavis, clamav, FTP (Proftpd, WU), httpd, RADIUS, a RDBMS, a backup system, custom Java, PHP and Perl applications, Tomcat, Cisco switches and routers, CMTS, remote access servers, DNS, webcaches.
Throw in legacy M$ Os and badly written apps without sources while things are in transition. It makes me sick and clients very God fearing.
On 17/06/06 22:20 +0530, jtd wrote:
On Saturday 17 June 2006 09:09 pm, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
On 17/06/06 16:27 +0530, Philip Tellis wrote:
Sometime Today, DB cobbled together some glyphs to say:
And Microsoft definitely made the computing world less reliable. Blue screens of death?
And what's the largest piece of code that you've written?
Written as a single app, about 80K lines of Perl code.
Joined together into a single complex system, and maintained it? LDAP, DHCP, Samba, IMAP (Cyrus, UW), Sendmail, Postfix, amavis, clamav, FTP (Proftpd, WU), httpd, RADIUS, a RDBMS, a backup system, custom Java, PHP and Perl applications, Tomcat, Cisco switches and routers, CMTS, remote access servers, DNS, webcaches.
Throw in legacy M$ Os and badly written apps without sources while things are in transition. It makes me sick and clients very God fearing.
I had a buncg of Windows boxes, and at that time there were no management tools for those systems. Had to do everything by hand, instead of being able to treat every process as a library.
Devdas Bhagat
I dont agree with any of you guys. But I guess M$ is responsible in a big way for stifling innovation. I think all the problems started with this:
Another thread bashing Microsoft. Yawn! I am so bored of this that I can't help calling stop to the thread.
Please stop this thread here. There is no point hating Microsoft further.
On Sunday 18 June 2006 03:59 am, Harshal Vaidya wrote:
Another thread bashing Microsoft. Yawn! I am so bored of this that I can't help calling stop to the thread.
Please stop this thread here. There is no point hating Microsoft further.
Agreed. Except that we poor sods have to deal with the crap daily - often nightly. And every time some one says is there anything wrong with using M$ it gets to you. Cmon guys can't u see theS*** hitting the ceiling. Arent u paying the price even if u dont use M$ - infact that is doubly galling, not using malware and paying the price. I am off to pray for oppressed n depressed GNU sys admins. OK even M$ sys admins and users. All right allright even for Billybaba. GOD forgive him even if he knows what he MSDOS.
On Sun, Jun 18, 2006 at 10:48:19AM +0530, jtd wrote:
Agreed. Except that we poor sods have to deal with the crap daily - often nightly.
One other development that needs to be highlighted is that MS is now planning to sell security software seperately from the OS, for a price. So first it sells a system that has security issues and then it sells the solution seperately, even after making $$Billions.
Regards,
Rony.
___________________________________________________________ Inbox full of spam? Get leading spam protection and 1GB storage with All New Yahoo! Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
-
Devdas Bhagat -
Dinesh Joshi -
Harsh Busa -
Harshal Vaidya -
jtd -
Philip Tellis -
ronbillypopļ¼ yahoo.co.uk