Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
an interesting discussion took place on IRC today regarding this: http://www.space-kerala.org/downloads/foss.pdf
sorry to head into this discussion a bit late.
The question was, with regard to #2 on the list - software developed by keltron, is it foss or not?
First, this book focus on the successful projects based on Free Software, implemented by the government/public sector organizations in Kerala. It is to show case the fact that FOSS is not just in theory, but successfully used by many organizations, especially in govt. sector. So It will help convince decision makers to go for Free Software. It also include an article by FSF India, to educate them why we should use Free Software.
My contention is that the tools used are irrelevant. The software was paid for by the government, and developed by the government, all using our tax rupees.
I also agree with you completely. The draft IT Policy of Kerala Govt. says exactly the same. (http://itforum.kerala.gov.in/)
<quote> 8.4 The Government is of the view that knowledge generated through public funding should be freely available to the public. Facilities will be developed to ensure the same. </quote>
So we hope that in future all govt./public enterprises in Kerala will follow it.
But there is no indication whether the source for the application is open or not, available to the users or not, modifiable, downloadable or redistributable or not. Therefore this is not f/oss as it goes against the fundamental notion that software should be freely available, downloadable, modifiable and redistributable with or without modifications.
All software mentioned in the book are custom made software for specific purpose of the different govt./public sector organizations. There is not much need to make those software distributable or made available to public. As those software are not public utility software. But all software mentioned in the book are made with Free Software and will work on a Free Software platform. So the organizations using those software need not go for proprietary platform to run the software.
<quote> Richard M. Stallman (http://fsfeurope.org/documents/rms-fs-2006-03-09.en.html) Please note that the majority of software, nearly all software, is neither free nor proprietary, it is custom software developed for one particular user. If that one particular user has all these freedoms, say, if that user has the full rights to the software, then you might say in a trivial sense that it's Free Software. There's only one user and that user is free. No user has been subjugated; no one is being mistreated in this way. Of course there are always other ethical issues that might enter the situation. There are many ethical issues in life, but in this one particular ethical issue, at least in that case, nothing wrong is being done. </quote>
I was further of the opinion that the authors of the PDF in question have tried to give an impression that free software is flourishing in the state.
It is a universal truth that Free Software is flourishing in Kerala. No one can Deny the fact. In Kerala, most of the population have some idea what Free Software (swathantra software) is. Here all Govt./Aided high schools use "Free Software", Most of the teachers and students know the evil of proprietary softwares. Also Govt. of Kerala with its IT Policy (http://itforum.kerala.gov.in) gave full support to Free Software.
However the free software guru with whom I was debating seemed to thing that this did not fall under the definition of proprietary software. Opinions anyone?
As I quoted before, from a speech of RMS, the software mentioned in this book are neither proprietary nor free software, they are all custom software made using Free Software tools.
The book is released before the Kerala Govt. published its draft of IT Policy. And in the policy it is clearly stated that all knowledge generated through public funding should be freely available to the public. So I hope in near future, all the software mentioned in the book may change its status from custom software to Free Software. And other states and countries will follow the model set by Kerala.
regards,
~vimal
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Vimal Joseph wrote:
All software mentioned in the book are custom made software for specific purpose of the different govt./public sector organizations. There is not much need to make those software distributable or made available to public. As those software are not public utility software.
I could not follow the above thread of logic - can you elaborate a bit more ?
:Sankarshan
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You see things; and you say 'Why?'; But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' - George Bernard Shaw
On 14/03/07 15:51 +0530, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote:
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Vimal Joseph wrote:
All software mentioned in the book are custom made software for specific purpose of the different govt./public sector organizations. There is not much need to make those software distributable or made available to public. As those software are not public utility software.
I could not follow the above thread of logic - can you elaborate a bit more ?
As I understood it, this was specialised software written for one customer. It isn't meant for general purpose distribution.
Devdas Bhagat
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Devdas Bhagat wrote:
As I understood it, this was specialised software written for one customer. It isn't meant for general purpose distribution.
So thought I on the first reading, but since governments at the state level are nowadays trying to (re)use bits of knowledge and competence - wanted to know what the reasoning was.
Re-inventing the wheel is anyway an enticing project
:SM
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You see things; and you say 'Why?'; But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' - George Bernard Shaw
Nice post. Am replying partly on top because i want to make a general observation before getting into specifics. That is, the distinction between 'using free software' or 'running on a free software platform' and 'writing and using foss code'. This is especially important when the government/public sector is involved. What is happening today is something like this:
govt of state A decides to use free software to computerise land records. Calls for bids. Company X bags the contract and writes the software using foss platform and foss tools. The government pays for it and gets the code and starts using it. Also issues press releases about what it has done with FOSS. The government becomes owner of the copyright, but the code is not released.
govt of state B decides to use free software to computerise land records. Calls for bids. Same company X bags the contract and writes the software using foss platform and foss tools. The government pays for it and gets the code and starts using it. Also issues press releases about what it has done with FOSS. The government becomes owner of the copyright, but the code is not released.
govt of state C decides to use proprietary software to computerise land records. Calls for bids. Same company X bags the contract and writes the software using proprietary platform and proprietary tools. The government pays for it and gets the code and starts using it. Also issues press releases about what it has done. The government becomes owner of the copyright, but the code is not released.
In all these cases, it is custom built software with one client. But suppose state A had released the code and made it available. Would'nt B and C save a large sum by re-using what A had released and modifying it to suit local conditions. Or suppose state C had released the code and made it available? Wouldnt that be FOSS inspite of the fact that it is written using proprietary tools and runs on a proprietary platform?
So when we talk of spreading FOSS, are we talking of spreading the usage of the foss tools and platform or are we talking of spreading the culture of sharing of code? In my opinion, the tools and platform are irrelevant - the criterion is: is the code shared or not. If so, it is foss, if not it is proprietary. Which means i would prefer a government that commissions code in VB and shares it to a government that does it in python and doesnt share it.
The companies that bid for these contracts oppose the sharing for the simple reason that they follow the proprietary profit model of write once, sell many times and feel sharing will eat into their profits. In this context a few comments
On 14-Mar-07, at 2:41 PM, Vimal Joseph wrote:
First, this book focus on the successful projects based on Free Software, implemented by the government/public sector organizations in Kerala. It is to show case the fact that FOSS is not just in theory, but successfully used by many organizations, especially in govt. sector. So It will help convince decision makers to go for Free Software. It also include an article by FSF India, to educate them why we should use Free Software.
so what is Free Software - is it the tools or the culture of sharing?
All software mentioned in the book are custom made software for specific purpose of the different govt./public sector organizations. There is not much need to make those software distributable or made available to public.
why ever not? isnt what keltron done needed by every state in the country?
<quote> Richard M. Stallman (http://fsfeurope.org/documents/rms-fs-2006-03-09.en.html) Please note that the majority of software, nearly all software, is neither free nor proprietary, it is custom software developed for one particular user. If that one particular user has all these freedoms, say, if that user has the full rights to the software, then you might say in a trivial sense that it's Free Software. There's only one user and that user is free. No user has been subjugated; no one is being mistreated in this way. Of course there are always other ethical issues that might enter the situation. There are many ethical issues in life, but in this one particular ethical issue, at least in that case, nothing wrong is being done.
</quote>
this is not really relevant as we are talking not of individuals but of public bodies
Here all Govt./Aided
high schools use "Free Software",
could you elaborate on this? What free software do they use? Is the syllabus available for perusal?
However the free software guru with whom I was debating seemed to thing that this did not fall under the definition of proprietary software. Opinions anyone?
As I quoted before, from a speech of RMS, the software mentioned in this book are neither proprietary nor free software, they are all custom software made using Free Software tools.
talking of custom made software, look at the Koha project - that was originally custom made for a particular library in New Zealand. The library was convinced to release it as FOSS. And it did and Koha has made history. Most application packages in the foss world today started as custom made software - for example, django and RubyOnRails.
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Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
govt of state A decides to use free software to computerise land records. Calls for bids. Company X bags the contract and writes the software using foss platform and foss tools. The government pays for it and gets the code and starts using it. Also issues press releases about what it has done with FOSS. The government becomes owner of the copyright, but the code is not released.
[snipping the rest]
Part of the problem arises from the lack of specifications for Citizen Centric Services (or whatever eGovernance is called these days). NISG had a charter to draw them up using standards that are based around implementable technologies (which might have been the politically correct way of talking about Open Standards). Unfortunately, that pops the cat out of the hat by proving LandRecords/RTO/EmploymentExchange etc are basically same in each state and thus with small tweaks software can be reused.
:Sankarshan
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You see things; and you say 'Why?'; But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' - George Bernard Shaw
On 14/03/07 16:15 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: <snip>
So when we talk of spreading FOSS, are we talking of spreading the usage of the foss tools and platform or are we talking of spreading the culture of sharing of code? In my opinion, the tools and platform
Good point. IMO, the second is the more important criterion. Though I would not restrict it to sharing of code, but instead ideas.
The other, more commonly forgotten point is that the formats in which data is stored need to be public specifications as well. Locking up data in proprietary closed formats is even more evil[1] than merely using a closed source binary to manipulate the code.
In this context, the tools may be useful to other governments or not. Being able to reuse code would save other governments time and/or money. Note that the code reuse can be done by simply hiring the same vendor. On the other hand, having the code out there implies that there will be competition later when third parties have gotten the chance to analyse the released code.
Devdas Bhagat
On 14-Mar-07, at 6:00 PM, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
money. Note that the code reuse can be done by simply hiring the same vendor.
this is 'happening'. In the example of states A,B and C that i gave, it wasnt in the land revenue department and I have disguised the names of the states and the vendor. But it was the same vendor in all three cases and the vendor got paid in full by all three states
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
this is 'happening'. In the example of states A,B and C that i gave, it wasnt in the land revenue department and I have disguised the names of the states and the vendor. But it was the same vendor in all three cases and the vendor got paid in full by all three states
How are the charges for software creation, customization and implementation distributed in a deal between the vendor and the client. In case of big organizations like the Govt., a major chunk could be going into the customization, installation and setup itself, so even if they re-use code, they still incur major expenses other than creation of software.
On 16-Mar-07, at 12:03 PM, Rony wrote:
this is 'happening'. In the example of states A,B and C that i gave, it wasnt in the land revenue department and I have disguised the names of the states and the vendor. But it was the same vendor in all three cases and the vendor got paid in full by all three states
How are the charges for software creation, customization and implementation distributed in a deal between the vendor and the client. In case of big organizations like the Govt., a major chunk could be going into the customization, installation and setup itself, so even if they re-use code, they still incur major expenses other than creation of software.
not all that major. If you take land revenue, there are individual quirks in each state, but by and large there are three common systems corresponding to the three presidencies - madras, bombay and calcutta. Same with all the the other government departments. The cost of customisation is negligible compared to the initial cost of doing the system the first time. Dont forget, the routines for installation, setup and training will also be open sourced - so cost is saved there. And since the whole system is open source, a lot of things can be subcontracted at district level to smaller players. Think of a big multibranch company - they develop for one branch, iron out the bugs, work out policy, perfect it and then apply to other branches. And at each iteration the process becomes easier and cheaper.
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Devdas Bhagat -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
Rony -
Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay -
Vimal Joseph